No doubt he would either need to be a PCGS member, or someone who is submitting the real coins through a dealer - as I said earlier in the post. It's a possibility, not a guarantee. The hypothetical challenge is to find one of the real coins in a real holder, if that's what he's doing. There's no means to proceed if he's re-slabbing the coins in fake holders, obviously.
@JBK said:
It is very possible that the scammer has never even held the slab/label they copied.
Should PCGS cancel the memberships of all collectors or dealers who own a slab/label that has been copied? That just compounds the injustice.
That possibility refutes the notion from earlier in the thread that he is somehow opening the slabs and inserting fake coins, which is the main concern in this thread. If he's just copying the labels from an online source and has his own fake slabs, it's been done before, right?
@JBK said:
It is very possible that the scammer has never even held the slab/label they copied.
Should PCGS cancel the memberships of all collectors or dealers who own a slab/label that has been copied? That just compounds the injustice.
That possibility refutes the notion that he is somehow opening the slabs and inserting fake coins, which is the main concern in this thread. If he's just copying the labels from an online source, we're wasting our time here.
That theory was presented in the first post.
@yosclimber has since shown - with photos - that the labels are fakes.
No one is opening or resealing anything.
You refer to "re-slabbing". There is no evidence that anything is being reslabbed.
I think this is a case of an old-fashioned (but convincing) fake label in a fake holder. The fake label copies a real one so that the cert # lookup returns a real result. The coin may or may not be real, and if it is real it is certainly a lower grade than shown on the label.
@alaura22 said:
My simple solution to this problem
Stop buying coins on ebay.
I do not buy from ebay but there are several reputable dealers who I know only use eBay as their storefront ... the trick and extra effort on the buyer part is to validate them
hope this will be resolved very soon to prevent further damage.
have 3 questions:
1 why is PCGS quiet about this?
2 why is this issue not turned over to the FBI or ICE?
3 why does ebay not comment?
M.O? let the authorities investigate. they have all the resources.
I know, some of you will say they are not interested??
However, it appears that this is cross-border fraud, some serious fraud, and a scam is involved here.
just my 2 cents worth to the subject.
Answers to #1, 2, and 3:
Because it happens all the time, and law enforcement is already overwhelmed with bigger challenges than this that they can't keep up with.
On a side note, this situation is part of the reason why some people block out the cert # when they post pictures of slabs. Maybe that should be more commonplace.
@alaura22 said:
I would hope that the younger crowd would be more incline to peruse this as it will affect them more than me down the road. My better days have come and gone.
I saw this and I couldn't really let it go. Why on earth would the younger crowd even attempt to pursue this? Who in their right mind is going to listen to a 16 year old YN saying, "hey this is a problem?". No one, trust me. It seems like a good idea until it's tried, especially in numismatics. I can't tell you how many dealers at shows have given me "the look" of "oh great there's another kid here". I'm a bit bitter, so apologies if this comes off as harsh.
But since, you asked, here's what I would do to fix the problem:
PCGS takes pictures of EVERY coin they grade.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
It's not a bad suggestion at all, even if it raises submission fees somewhat.
Since it came from a 16 year-old, though, I'll have to ignore it until some old-timer comes along and suggests it. That way, I can give him credit for it.
@alaura22 said:
I would hope that the younger crowd would be more incline to peruse this as it will affect them more than me down the road. My better days have come and gone.
I saw this and I couldn't really let it go. Why on earth would the younger crowd even attempt to pursue this? Who in their right mind is going to listen to a 16 year old YN saying, "hey this is a problem?". No one, trust me. It seems like a good idea until it's tried, especially in numismatics. I can't tell you how many dealers at shows have given me "the look" of "oh great there's another kid here". I'm a bit bitter, so apologies if this comes off as harsh.
But since, you asked, here's what I would do to fix the problem:
PCGS takes pictures of EVERY coin they grade.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
I hope you were being facetious about "Hey, look, problem solved!". But in case not, what percentage of buyers do you think would actually look at pictures before buying coins, even if they knew of their existence?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CoinAddiction said:
I felt that i needed to do something and try to warn people about what scammers are now doing especially with PCGS certified coins. I am new to this forum but i have been reading stuff on here every now and then from the sidelines and i have been collecting coins especially certified Morgan dollars for 17 years.
So this is what happened to me, I bought this PCGS 1886-O Morgan MS63 on ebay and after i paid for it i thought i had got an okay deal. I then went looking at sold listings and one web site i went to was Greatcollections on their archive of sold listings, upon looking i had found the same PCGS holder and certification # so i thought wow i can see what this coin sold for in 2016, but upon looking at the coin on Greatcollections i noticed it looked nothing like the one i just bought on ebay, so then i checked the certification #'s like three times to make sure it matched the one i bought on ebay and it did, so then i knew something was going on here because PCGS does not give two coins the same certification #.
So the next day i thought i would call PCGS. I gave both links of both auctions to the person at PCGS and also told them the situation (which the person at PCGS was so helpful) and he compared the two Morgan's and definitely said that the coins were switched. I told him that the QR code on the PCGS holder on the Morgan i bought did scan. I told him if the coins were switched how did the scammers not break the PCGS holder because i thought all PCGS holders had to be broken to get the coin out and he said there WAS a way to get the coin out of a PCGS holder WITHOUT breaking the holder and he said that the scammers must have figured it out.
Here's what the scammers are doing: So i asked the person at PCGS, why would someone switch out a perfectly good coin and how would they gain from doing this? He said what their doing is buying a high dollar PCGS graded coin, then the scammers buy the same coin but they buy a grade or two lesser then the higher graded coin, then they open the holder carefully (because there is a way apparently) and switch the coins out, then they send the high dollar PCGS graded coin back to PCGS to be graded again and 99% of the time it will come back the same grade, then they take the lower graded coin and sale it in an original PCGS holder and label and then make $2,000-$5,000 or more and when they get the regraded coin back they sell it too or they keep it and get a free coin.
This seems like a very irresponsible thing for the PCGS rep to say, especially since a semi-close inspection clearly shows that’s not what actually happened. I just find it hard to believe that a PCGS employee would tell you that.
I actually took the advice of @alaura22 many years ago. I've barely purchased a coin on Ebay in the last 6-7 years, with the exception of irresistible BIN cherrypicks that are worth the gamble, and one auction I won from David Kahn, who is a known and reputable dealer. There are so many other good places to buy coins.
@alaura22 said:
I would hope that the younger crowd would be more incline to peruse this as it will affect them more than me down the road. My better days have come and gone.
I saw this and I couldn't really let it go. Why on earth would the younger crowd even attempt to pursue this? Who in their right mind is going to listen to a 16 year old YN saying, "hey this is a problem?". No one, trust me. It seems like a good idea until it's tried, especially in numismatics. I can't tell you how many dealers at shows have given me "the look" of "oh great there's another kid here". I'm a bit bitter, so apologies if this comes off as harsh.
But since, you asked, here's what I would do to fix the problem:
PCGS takes pictures of EVERY coin they grade.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
I hope you were being facetious about "Hey, look, problem solved!". But in case not, what percentage of buyers do you think would actually look at pictures before buying coins, even if they knew of their existence?
At least the picture would provide a tool to combat the problem. Of course you can’t force a buyer to use the information at their disposal. You won’t ever eliminate all scams and counterfeits - but pictures of every coin would go a very long way in assisting buyers with conducting their due diligence.
I hope you were being facetious about "Hey, look, problem solved!". But in case not, what percentage of buyers do you think would actually look at pictures before buying coins, even if they knew of their existence?
Yes, I was. I know it won't actually solve the problem but it would help immensely, at least for those who care. I would say about half, maybe less would take the time to look. It would have solved this problem, and I think the OP would have looked given that he went to GC. In essence, a picture did solve what would have otherwise gone undetected.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
You had some good perspectives until the ageist bigotry crept in, and right after you accused older dealers of discriminating against you because of your age, no less.
I suspect that the disrespect you encounter at coin shows might be a two-way street.
Furthermore, there is an old adage that old collectors have been recommending since before you were born: "buy the coin, not the holder".
BTW, those looks you get from some dealers might be attributed to their assumption that you are inexperienced or unable/unwilling to pay the kinds of prices of the coins they were hoping to sell.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
You had some good perspectives until the ageist bigotry crept in, and right after you accused older dealers of discriminating against you because of your age, no less.
I suspect that the disrespect you encounter at coin shows might be a two-way street.
Furthermore, there is an old adage that old collectors have been recommending since before you were born: "buy the coin, not the holder".
BTW, those looks you get from some dealers might be attributed to their assumption that you are inexperienced or unable/unwilling to pay the kinds of prices of the coins they were hoping to sell.
You raise some good points here. I let my anger get the better of me, and I did not consider the other side of the story. It was an error in judgment. Thank you for showing me where I went wrong, I'll try to stop before I do this again.
Of course, my advice is nothing new and you've said this, so my statement of people not listening isn't necessarily false. It's been said many times that pictures are the best way to counter counterfeits, and it is true in my opinion. Yet no one seems interested in changing it. Anyways, I'd be shocked if PCGS actually started taking such pictures.
Your last statement about dealers is undeniably correct. I made a mistake with an assumption about all coin dealers, and like before these assumptions seem to be a two way street. Perhaps there's someway to fix it, but this thread would not be the place.
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Learn to grade and spot counterfeits. If the coin in this OP really does turn out to be genuine, it looks like 63 material. Who knows, maybe the OP's deal turned out better than expected.
You had some good perspectives until the ageist bigotry crept in, and right after you accused older dealers of discriminating against you because of your age, no less.
I suspect that the disrespect you encounter at coin shows might be a two-way street.
Furthermore, there is an old adage that old collectors have been recommending since before you were born: "buy the coin, not the holder".
BTW, those looks you get from some dealers might be attributed to their assumption that you are inexperienced or unable/unwilling to pay the kinds of prices of the coins they were hoping to sell.
Getting off topic, but I’ve been both welcomed and ignored at dealer booths as both a YN and adult. Dealers definitely prioritize deals in progress, repeat customers, other dealers, etc. and that can make you feel ignored. I don’t take it personally - sometimes I come back later, sometimes I don’t. The unfortunate reality is that dealers have to make a living and pay expenses to stay in business and continue to serve hobbyists. Most of us are guilty of passing judgement based on appearance and dealers are no different when assessing who is most likely to make a purchase. There are many amazing dealers out there working hard to help YNs.
@FlyingAl - I definitely recommend letting go of any bitterness you’ve developed. It won’t lead to enjoyment of the hobby or life more generally. Build relationships with dealers over time - especially ones that take an interest in your development as a numismatist.
Someday I'll tell the story of the bad attitude I got when I wandered into a Cartier store, as an adult. I wasn't dressed like their normal customers and the dirty looks only started to soften when I pulled out a few hundred dollars in gift certificates I had won.
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Thank you, Heather.
How would you feel about starting a pinned thread, to which forum members could report counterfeit PCGS ID numbers/labels/holders? Or in the alternative, providing a direct email address for such reports?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Thank you, Heather.
How would you feel about starting a pinned thread, to which forum members could report counterfeit PCGS ID numbers/labels/holders? Or in the alternative, providing a direct email address for such reports?
We love this idea Mark. I have brought it to the attention of Stephanie Sabin and the PCGS leadership team and we are actively working to implement a new contact process specifically for reporting counterfeits for investigation.
@alaura22 said:
Thank you Heather for clearing up the issues brought up in this thread
I feel a bit more relieved knowing that the coin in question is fake
Where did you get the idea that the coin Is “fake”? Heather said: “We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.”.
I believe that the coin is genuine.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How would you feel about starting a pinned thread, to which forum members could report counterfeit PCGS ID numbers/labels/holders? Or in the alternative, providing a direct email address for such reports?
We love this idea Mark. I have brought it to the attention of Stephanie Sabin and the PCGS leadership team and we are actively working to implement a new contact process specifically for reporting counterfeits for investigation.
I’m very glad to hear that, Heather and I think it would be great.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
FYI, the "1901" Morgan $ posted is no longer listed.
I’m guessing that the dealer I contacted, who owned the example in the genuine PCGS holder, got in touch with eBay and they removed the listing. I wish they’d remove the seller, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@alaura22 said:
Thank you Heather for clearing up the issues brought up in this thread
I feel a bit more relieved knowing that the coin in question is fake
Where did you get the idea that the coin Is “fake”? Heather said: “We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.”.
I believe that the coin is genuine.
Yes, the holder and label. The coin is still in question
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Thank you, Heather.
How would you feel about starting a pinned thread, to which forum members could report counterfeit PCGS ID numbers/labels/holders? Or in the alternative, providing a direct email address for such reports?
We love this idea Mark. I have brought it to the attention of Stephanie Sabin and the PCGS leadership team and we are actively working to implement a new contact process specifically for reporting counterfeits for investigation.
The forum is great or email but limited. I was thinking that pcgs would have a page for reporting potential fake pcgs slabs. Then a link could be provided to that page (something like click here to report a fake pcgs slab) at each coin cert lookup page.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@rhedden said:
"PCGS takes pictures of EVERY coin they grade."
It's not a bad suggestion at all, even if it raises submission fees somewhat.
Since it came from a 16 year-old, though, I'll have to ignore it until some old-timer comes along and suggests it. That way, I can give him credit for it.
I got the comedy (and a lol) but that has been suggested multiple times. As I recall for counterfeit and AT in slab type threads.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
FYI, the "1901" Morgan $ posted is no longer listed.
I’m guessing that the dealer I contacted, who owned the example in the genuine PCGS holder, got in touch with eBay and they removed the listing. I wish they’d remove the seller, too.
@rhedden said:
If the scammer is re-submitting the real coins to PCGS, it seems that PCGS should be able to track them down. Sure, they are probably submitting the real coins through a dealer - but then the dealer can help track them down.
It's not an 1804 dollar.
Maybe not - but PCGS can cancel their membership if they submit directly, or inform the dealer who is doing their submissions in that case. A step in the right direction is better than doing nothing.
But they aren't going to recognize the coin. That was my point. The coin isn't unique enough.
@rhedden said:
That 1901 dollar is a fantastic example of a fake PCGS coin that could harm the average collector who is into Morgans. It doesn't have to be an 1804 dollar to pose a threat to the collecting community.
You're missing the point. They are never going to know that the coin was submitted after being broken out. It's not a recognizable scarce coin. It's one of thousands of dollars submitted.
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
Look, they just opened a new account, no feedback, same state but this time they are not showing the holders they are just putting up true view pic's. also, if you notice all of the screen names of the ebay accounts of these scammers all have a name an number(s), screen names are also similar.
Look at all the items for sale, all PCGS Morgans and all high dollar high Morgans. Wow, 13 items and all PCGS.
Look, they just opened a new account, no feedback, same state but this time they are not showing the holders they are just putting up true view pic's. also, if you notice all of the screen names of the ebay accounts of these scammers all have a name an number(s), screen names are also similar.
Look at all the items for sale, all PCGS Morgans and all high dollar high Morgans. Wow, 13 items and all PCGS.
Now that we have seen the coin you received, it appears that burfle's post tells us that this coin is no good. It's either a counterfeit, or else a composite of an 1886-(something) obverse half and a 190x-O reverse half.
Okay i compared the PCGS holder to some other PCGS holders of the same identical type and i did find one thing that does not match up to an original PCGS holder and to make sure i at least compared to 5 original PCGS holders.
The gaskets are different, the first picture is the PCGS holder from ebay and the second picture is of a PCGS holder from my collection and remind you i compared at least 5 PCGS holders from my collection and they were all the same but different from the one from ebay.
In the second picture in red i outline what to look at on the gasket. On the original gasket the gasket go's straight and then rounds off and also the gasket tab is wider and on the gasket from ebay the gasket go's at an angle and then rouds just slightly and the gasket tab is narrower not as wide. My wife and son also totally agreed with this.
But i got to admit if this is all i could find these guys are good at faking this stuff.
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Is there a published list of these proven "bad faith" submitters so we may steer clear of doing business with these "bad faith" submitters?
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@lilolme said: @CoinAddiction
In your photo below the hologram appears to be flawed. Can you confirm that it is or is this a lighting thing in the photo.?
.
I believe it's a lighting thing because i took a loop and compared the hologram to an original hologram and i could not see a difference and i even compared the corners of the hologram, the font of the hologram all under a loop i couldn't see a difference which i thought the hologram would of been off.
I wish some of you guys and gals could see this holder in your hand because its that good.
Even under a loop the label paper has those little like dots (i think that is what you call them) that matched the original labels.
I hate to say it but if i did not find that picture of the original PCGS holder and Morgan dollar i probably would have just put it in my collection, boy i hate to admit that.
Comments
It is very possible that the scammer has never even held the slab/label they copied.
Should PCGS cancel the memberships of all collectors or dealers who own a slab/label that has been copied? That just compounds the injustice.
No doubt he would either need to be a PCGS member, or someone who is submitting the real coins through a dealer - as I said earlier in the post. It's a possibility, not a guarantee. The hypothetical challenge is to find one of the real coins in a real holder, if that's what he's doing. There's no means to proceed if he's re-slabbing the coins in fake holders, obviously.
That possibility refutes the notion from earlier in the thread that he is somehow opening the slabs and inserting fake coins, which is the main concern in this thread. If he's just copying the labels from an online source and has his own fake slabs, it's been done before, right?
That theory was presented in the first post.
@yosclimber has since shown - with photos - that the labels are fakes.
No one is opening or resealing anything.
You refer to "re-slabbing". There is no evidence that anything is being reslabbed.
I think this is a case of an old-fashioned (but convincing) fake label in a fake holder. The fake label copies a real one so that the cert # lookup returns a real result. The coin may or may not be real, and if it is real it is certainly a lower grade than shown on the label.
If you're right, then this whole thread is a lot less interesting to me. Fake slabs and labels are nothing new to our hobby.
I do not buy from ebay but there are several reputable dealers who I know only use eBay as their storefront ... the trick and extra effort on the buyer part is to validate them
hope this will be resolved very soon to prevent further damage.
have 3 questions:
1 why is PCGS quiet about this?
2 why is this issue not turned over to the FBI or ICE?
3 why does ebay not comment?
M.O? let the authorities investigate. they have all the resources.
I know, some of you will say they are not interested??
However, it appears that this is cross-border fraud, some serious fraud, and a scam is involved here.
just my 2 cents worth to the subject.
Answers to #1, 2, and 3:
Because it happens all the time, and law enforcement is already overwhelmed with bigger challenges than this that they can't keep up with.
On a side note, this situation is part of the reason why some people block out the cert # when they post pictures of slabs. Maybe that should be more commonplace.
I saw this and I couldn't really let it go. Why on earth would the younger crowd even attempt to pursue this? Who in their right mind is going to listen to a 16 year old YN saying, "hey this is a problem?". No one, trust me. It seems like a good idea until it's tried, especially in numismatics. I can't tell you how many dealers at shows have given me "the look" of "oh great there's another kid here". I'm a bit bitter, so apologies if this comes off as harsh.
But since, you asked, here's what I would do to fix the problem:
Hey, look, problem solved! Now, I'm going to take a reasonable assumption here and assume PCGS or the older generations won't listen, and I'll give some more realistic advice:
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
"PCGS takes pictures of EVERY coin they grade."
It's not a bad suggestion at all, even if it raises submission fees somewhat.
Since it came from a 16 year-old, though, I'll have to ignore it until some old-timer comes along and suggests it. That way, I can give him credit for it.
Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
peacockcoins
I hope you were being facetious about "Hey, look, problem solved!". But in case not, what percentage of buyers do you think would actually look at pictures before buying coins, even if they knew of their existence?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This seems like a very irresponsible thing for the PCGS rep to say, especially since a semi-close inspection clearly shows that’s not what actually happened. I just find it hard to believe that a PCGS employee would tell you that.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
I actually took the advice of @alaura22 many years ago. I've barely purchased a coin on Ebay in the last 6-7 years, with the exception of irresistible BIN cherrypicks that are worth the gamble, and one auction I won from David Kahn, who is a known and reputable dealer. There are so many other good places to buy coins.
At least the picture would provide a tool to combat the problem. Of course you can’t force a buyer to use the information at their disposal. You won’t ever eliminate all scams and counterfeits - but pictures of every coin would go a very long way in assisting buyers with conducting their due diligence.
Yes, I was. I know it won't actually solve the problem but it would help immensely, at least for those who care. I would say about half, maybe less would take the time to look. It would have solved this problem, and I think the OP would have looked given that he went to GC. In essence, a picture did solve what would have otherwise gone undetected.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
You had some good perspectives until the ageist bigotry crept in, and right after you accused older dealers of discriminating against you because of your age, no less.
I suspect that the disrespect you encounter at coin shows might be a two-way street.
Furthermore, there is an old adage that old collectors have been recommending since before you were born: "buy the coin, not the holder".
BTW, those looks you get from some dealers might be attributed to their assumption that you are inexperienced or unable/unwilling to pay the kinds of prices of the coins they were hoping to sell.
You raise some good points here. I let my anger get the better of me, and I did not consider the other side of the story. It was an error in judgment. Thank you for showing me where I went wrong, I'll try to stop before I do this again.
Of course, my advice is nothing new and you've said this, so my statement of people not listening isn't necessarily false. It's been said many times that pictures are the best way to counter counterfeits, and it is true in my opinion. Yet no one seems interested in changing it. Anyways, I'd be shocked if PCGS actually started taking such pictures.
Your last statement about dealers is undeniably correct. I made a mistake with an assumption about all coin dealers, and like before these assumptions seem to be a two way street. Perhaps there's someway to fix it, but this thread would not be the place.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Getting off topic, but I’ve been both welcomed and ignored at dealer booths as both a YN and adult. Dealers definitely prioritize deals in progress, repeat customers, other dealers, etc. and that can make you feel ignored. I don’t take it personally - sometimes I come back later, sometimes I don’t. The unfortunate reality is that dealers have to make a living and pay expenses to stay in business and continue to serve hobbyists. Most of us are guilty of passing judgement based on appearance and dealers are no different when assessing who is most likely to make a purchase. There are many amazing dealers out there working hard to help YNs.
@FlyingAl - I definitely recommend letting go of any bitterness you’ve developed. It won’t lead to enjoyment of the hobby or life more generally. Build relationships with dealers over time - especially ones that take an interest in your development as a numismatist.
Someday I'll tell the story of the bad attitude I got when I wandered into a Cartier store, as an adult. I wasn't dressed like their normal customers and the dirty looks only started to soften when I pulled out a few hundred dollars in gift certificates I had won.
Hello everyone,
Thank you for all of your patience as I was made aware of this thread this morning. I would like to address the two main topics here- the alleged statements made by our rep regarding swapping coins and counterfeiting in general and what we are doing to combat it.
For the first point, what the rep stated is false. There is no way to swap out a PCGS graded coin from its sonically sealed holder without evidence of tampering. We will be holding training with our reps to cover this topic to ensure this type of misinformation is not repeated. We apologize for the alarm this statement has caused.
We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.
Counterfeiters are top of mind for us every day at PCGS. We work with authorities and organizations to combat them to the best of our abilities. Here are some additional steps we have taken:
Collectors Club members and authorized dealers proven to be submitting known counterfeits or altered coins in bad faith are banned from submitting.
Coins reported as having potential or known counterfeit holders or labels in the marketplace are marked as such, we have added this warning to the cert for this coin and it will be shown shortly.
We include NFC technology in every item we have graded since the beginning of 2021. This means that new labels cannot be counterfeited as there is no way to counterfeit the NFC tag that it would include.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
Thank you, Heather.
How would you feel about starting a pinned thread, to which forum members could report counterfeit PCGS ID numbers/labels/holders? Or in the alternative, providing a direct email address for such reports?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you Heather for clearing up the issues brought up in this thread
I feel a bit more relieved knowing that the coin in question is fake
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
We love this idea Mark. I have brought it to the attention of Stephanie Sabin and the PCGS leadership team and we are actively working to implement a new contact process specifically for reporting counterfeits for investigation.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
FYI, the "1901" Morgan $ posted is no longer listed.
Where did you get the idea that the coin Is “fake”? Heather said: “We can confirm from the images shown that both the holder and label for the coin purchased from eBay are fake.”.
I believe that the coin is genuine.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’m very glad to hear that, Heather and I think it would be great.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Love how this thread turned out. Bravo Mark and PCGS!
@burfle23 said:
I’m guessing that the dealer I contacted, who owned the example in the genuine PCGS holder, got in touch with eBay and they removed the listing. I wish they’d remove the seller, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, the holder and label. The coin is still in question
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
The forum is great or email but limited. I was thinking that pcgs would have a page for reporting potential fake pcgs slabs. Then a link could be provided to that page (something like click here to report a fake pcgs slab) at each coin cert lookup page.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I got the comedy (and a lol) but that has been suggested multiple times. As I recall for counterfeit and AT in slab type threads.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Maybe; I also reported it for consideration...
But they aren't going to recognize the coin. That was my point. The coin isn't unique enough.
You're missing the point. They are never going to know that the coin was submitted after being broken out. It's not a recognizable scarce coin. It's one of thousands of dollars submitted.
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
Look, they just opened a new account, no feedback, same state but this time they are not showing the holders they are just putting up true view pic's. also, if you notice all of the screen names of the ebay accounts of these scammers all have a name an number(s), screen names are also similar.
Look at all the items for sale, all PCGS Morgans and all high dollar high Morgans. Wow, 13 items and all PCGS.
https://ebay.com/itm/394118868418?hash=item5bc350adc2:g:Y7IAAOSw6CtigE-0
This is a match to the photos in the ebay auction, with the spacing of cert number and bar code the same.
The fact that the bar code and QR code scan correctly just means the person who made the labels
was careful to copy those parts correctly.
@CoinAddiction said:
I thought eBay required a picture of the holder for certified coins.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Now that we have seen the coin you received, it appears that burfle's post tells us that this coin is no good. It's either a counterfeit, or else a composite of an 1886-(something) obverse half and a 190x-O reverse half.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Okay i compared the PCGS holder to some other PCGS holders of the same identical type and i did find one thing that does not match up to an original PCGS holder and to make sure i at least compared to 5 original PCGS holders.
The gaskets are different, the first picture is the PCGS holder from ebay and the second picture is of a PCGS holder from my collection and remind you i compared at least 5 PCGS holders from my collection and they were all the same but different from the one from ebay.
In the second picture in red i outline what to look at on the gasket. On the original gasket the gasket go's straight and then rounds off and also the gasket tab is wider and on the gasket from ebay the gasket go's at an angle and then rouds just slightly and the gasket tab is narrower not as wide. My wife and son also totally agreed with this.
But i got to admit if this is all i could find these guys are good at faking this stuff.
The obverse is a P mint coin.
Edited to add: It's a bit of a long shot but with a better reverse photo we might be able to date the reverse.
Are you looking where i put the red lines in the second picture, where the gasket tab is? I'm talking about the gasket tabs not the coins themselves.
I see what you are saying about the gasket and it tends to confirm it's a counterfeit holder.
I am looking at the coin to try to confirm what is going on with it.
It appears to be a genuine coin with a P obverse and an O reverse.
Is there a published list of these proven "bad faith" submitters so we may steer clear of doing business with these "bad faith" submitters?
@CoinAddiction
In your photo below the hologram appears to be flawed. Can you confirm that it is or is this a lighting thing in the photo.?
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Oh, well you probably know more than me about that.
Is this the give away?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I believe it's a lighting thing because i took a loop and compared the hologram to an original hologram and i could not see a difference and i even compared the corners of the hologram, the font of the hologram all under a loop i couldn't see a difference which i thought the hologram would of been off.
I wish some of you guys and gals could see this holder in your hand because its that good.
Even under a loop the label paper has those little like dots (i think that is what you call them) that matched the original labels.
I hate to say it but if i did not find that picture of the original PCGS holder and Morgan dollar i probably would have just put it in my collection, boy i hate to admit that.