The air in here stinks too much for me. Wouldn't expect it to be better in March.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@moursund said:
Besides trying out patience, this thread has at least given me a much better notion of what genuine VDB looks like.
I'm glad my thread has helped you get a much better notion about V.D.B.'s. I suggest you archive as much of this thread as you can for future reference. Don't delay. If I decide to do mass deletes of my own posts here the context of your notions about what genuine V.D.B.'s look like will be lost forever.
You have done this more than once after making a complete fool of yourself.
All you are doing is making a mess of the forum.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This has been going on non-stop since Dec. 19th ....... enough is enough!
Well, if he comes back, whale on him again. Right now, looks like you are yelling at the phone after he has already hung up...
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@burfle23 said:
Do the Admins here delete a post just because the OP has a childish meltdown and asked it be deleted?
Just trying to understand the workings of this forum...
Seems that the OP renamed the thread to DELETE, and edited/deleted many of his posts.
Admin has done nothing, so far as I can tell.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@Steven59 said:
( pictures of the OP's coin that others have shown the VDB is not correct but he will not accept the conclusions)
For instance I will repost this picture that was posted earlier in this thread. Once again OP disregards the proof and just keeps plodding ahead with his overactive imagination...............
@burfle23 said:
And the title changes yet again...
Better than as the World Turns !
The spacing between the D and the B is too wide. I'm pretty sure that is a counterfeit title.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i think we can get pretty far here w/o the tpg if we just had some high-end large (dimension) images.
obviously it is only close to position #4 and i have some commentary but it is too speculative for the quality of the image provided other than the mm is rotated enough to be different than #4.
>
This is an unedited close-up image of the date/mintmark area. Image is for analysis by Mr. Newman per his request. Camera angle is straight on (overhead above the coin in its slab) taken with my new Elikliv® 4.3 Inch Digital Microscope...
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@burfle23 said:
Wow, and I took you off "ignore"...
Why did you do that?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@burfle23 said:
Wow, and I took you off "ignore"...
Why did you do that?
I suppose even attention-seeking malcontents deserve a second chance?
A second chance at what?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
The highest setting of megapixels for my Elikliv® Digital Microscope is 3. I know that's not great but for under a $100 that's as good as it's going to get for the time being. I might do a photographic equipment upgrade with the goal to get higher resolution images at some later time. I like the small television-like screen on my Elikliv®. I'll be able to easily do tracings of 1909 date/'S' mintmark positions and, too,VDB's by using the screen for this in the pursuit of solving my SVDB mystery.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@mr1874 said:
The highest setting of megapixels for my Elikliv® Digital Microscope is 3. I know that's not great but for under a $100 that's as good as it's going to get for the time being. I might do a photographic equipment upgrade with the goal to get higher resolution images at some later time. I like the small television-like screen on my Elikliv®. I'll be able to easily do tracings of 1909 date/'S' mintmark positions and, too,VDB's by using the screen for this in the pursuit of solving my SVDB mystery.
an iphone6 is quite capable and quite inexpensive. obviously the better generation, the better the camera. lighting is the most important factor, WAY over the type/quality of camera. fwiw
thanks for the image, if no one beats me to it, i'll tinker with it later. i have 2 days of warm (40/50s) weather before the bottom drops out again!
@mr1874 said:
The highest setting of megapixels for my Elikliv® Digital Microscope is 3. I know that's not great but for under a $100 that's as good as it's going to get for the time being. I might do a photographic equipment upgrade with the goal to get higher resolution images at some later time. I like the small television-like screen on my Elikliv®. I'll be able to easily do tracings of 1909 date/'S' mintmark positions and, too,VDB's by using the screen for this in the pursuit of solving my SVDB mystery.
What mystery? It's counterfeit. I took these through the slab with my IPhone.
an iphone6 is quite capable and quite inexpensive. obviously the better generation, the better the camera. lighting is the most important factor, WAY over the type/quality of camera. fwiw
I'm finding that good lighting does seem to be the most important factor in getting good images.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I'm just a beginner in photography.ˈI have taken some pictures of my V.D.B. with my new digital microscope. I haven't been able to capture the third dot, the one after the 'B,' in an image but it can definitely be seen when I rotate the piece just right while inspecting with 10x loupe.
And these with my $30 microscope/camera.
Care to share the make/model of microscope/camera and where you purchased it? Those are great images.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@mr1874 said:
I'm just a beginner in photography.ˈI have taken some pictures of my V.D.B. with my new digital microscope. I haven't been able to capture the third dot, the one after the 'B,' in an image but it can definitely be seen when I rotate the piece just right while inspecting with 10x loupe.
And these with my $30 microscope/camera.
Care to share the make/model of microscope/camera and where you purchased it? Those are great images.
Thanks. I just ordered one. Promises to be a very useful tool in helping solve "The whispering V.D.B. mystery."
You say counterfeit but along with others don't have anything to offer about method of manufacture. I heard "added V.D.B." from one commenter. To that commenter I say, "Okay, if added, HOW added?"
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I have sent in some that you can just make out a V.D.B and it come back 1909-S V.D.B so it may be there take the pic sideways then rotate the photo on your phone or laptop or whatever you are using. I could be true. Take some good pictures.
it sure isn't one of the known 4 positions/dies. too far right, low and tilted. since i haven't seen decent image(s) of the vdb, it is either fake, sandwhich, embossed etc.
i really can't support an unknown die w/o other precisely exact specimens. that is the basic process i learned even from the EAC guys when new marriages are found in too low a grade to verify which dies were used or an ultra rarity that has been delisted previously, only to have one found in more modern times, reevaluated and compared with other known newly found specimens, then and almost only then will it be widely accepted and then able to be certified.
edited to add: since it appears to be in a pcgs holder, i think they simply missed it. i can't imagine a new die would NOT have major publicity and fanfare so given how the coin looks, it is not an obvious counterfeit like we usually see and it is so close to position 4, if the vdb isn't suspicious, it isn't hard to see how it was missed. even the mm looks to have the chip in the upper S loop so the vdb will most likely tell the tale. perhaps an edge view would have an answer.
Thanks Lance. How does my piece compare to Die #6 used for 1909-S without V.D.B. which is known to have been paired with both old and new (style of 1910) reverse?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@LanceNewmanOCC ,
I gotta say, as an engineer who has done a lot of analysis on various things, I REALLY like these images and your approach to this.
.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
it kinda appears to match 09-s (non-vdb) obverse #6. i doubt it is impossible a few random 09-s vdb coulda been struck by one of the 09-s obv dies but we don't have the pictures here to make that distinctoin. imo
@moursund said: @LanceNewmanOCC ,
I gotta say, as an engineer who has done a lot of analysis on various things, I REALLY like these images and your approach to this.
thanks.
the go-to guys i use(d) (now they are retiring/passing away) do this and more, as should be. how in the world the guys of old did it really blows my mind. oh that's right, they did it, JUST by hand!!!
@Type2 said:
Here is one of them. And there are 5 isn’t there?
forgive me but i've only part of my focus and was ONLY just able to get those 2 comps together. gonna make this my last post for a bit and let my mind rest.
09-s vdb (4) positions/dies
09-s (6) positions - probably shared some with 09-s vdb but i haven't done that legwork to 100% confirm but i really should and make cross-reference notes on my original comps. shoulda done it years ago. i really will get it done this year, hopefully soon becoz now it is very much bugging me that i haven't yet.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
it kinda appears to match 09-s (non-vdb) obverse #6. i doubt it is impossible a few random 09-s vdb coulda been struck by one of the 09-s obv dies but we don't have the pictures here to make that distinction. imo
Harsche (Detecting Altered Coins, 5th edition, 1973) states that a total of six obverse dies were used for 1909-S cents. Harsche claims that two of those six were also used for 1909-S V.D.B. Those two would be what we now call PCGS #2 and PCGS #3. Harsche lists three obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. total. Apparently, Harsche never saw what we now call PCGS #1. Otherwise he would have listed it. Very few SVDB's were made using die #1. Die #1, I believe the first one used for SVDB, was quickly pulled out of service because officials at the SF mint did not like what they saw in the final product with this die...so, they moved on with production using #2...then #3...then #4.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@vulcanize said:
So now how do I go about adding an S below the 1909?
Just kidding. Couldn't resist.
Photoshop?
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
a use of a 09-s obv previously publicly unknown with a vdb
an altogether unknown 09-s obv
the closest the pic in the pcgs? holder from the op is to ANY of the known obv dies is 09-s #6.
none of the 09-s vdb have mm rotation of any consequence so they are instantly eliminated.
there is a small chance it is #6 but since new images are being refused to be uploaded, the coin will remain in question.
1909-S position 5 is very, very close to PCGS #4. Harsche describe 1909-S position 5 as "low,far right." As we can see from Mr. Newman's images of #5 the 'S' is vertical, no tilt at all. PCGS #4 (for 1909-S V.D.B.) is described by Harsche as "low right nearly vertical." #6 die is described by Harsche as "far low, far right." And as we can see the 'S' for die #6 has a very definite clockwise tilt.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
Comments
You probably drove your coin dealer friend nuts and he stopped answering you.
The air in here stinks too much for me. Wouldn't expect it to be better in March.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
Agree
You have done this more than once after making a complete fool of yourself.
All you are doing is making a mess of the forum.
Your "special" coin is going to get cut in half by PCGS one day..... and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Scrap Metal
Hopefully someone at PCGS will deactivate the cert look up on this one 2426.15/38363500
@ifthevamzarockin geez, take a chill pill!
This has been going on non-stop since Dec. 19th ....... enough is enough!
Well, if he comes back, whale on him again. Right now, looks like you are yelling at the phone after he has already hung up...
"Right now, looks like you are yelling at the phone after he has already hung up"...
Well put and you are right.
Thank you!
Banning yourself will only solve the problem of him trolling you and you buying into it.
One troll and you think the solution is to bam yourself
Somewhere the sun is shining.......................................
Pete
I’m not letting myself get rained upon
Do the Admins here delete a post just because the OP has a childish meltdown and asked it be deleted?
Just trying to understand the workings of this forum...
Seems that the OP renamed the thread to DELETE, and edited/deleted many of his posts.
Admin has done nothing, so far as I can tell.
And yet, some posters keep replying to him and giving him lots of attention.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Extremely rare
Almost never
Ask and ye have a snowball’s chance
Play powerball instead
:
:
Really cool coin. It must take a lot of time and hard work to do this kind of numismatic research.
Congratulations sir!
And the title changes yet again...
Better than as the World Turns
!
The spacing between the D and the B is too wide. I'm pretty sure that is a counterfeit title.
Maybe the OP thinks negative attention is better than none at all.
>
This is an unedited close-up image of the date/mintmark area. Image is for analysis by Mr. Newman per his request. Camera angle is straight on (overhead above the coin in its slab) taken with my new Elikliv® 4.3 Inch Digital Microscope...
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
Wow, and I took you off "ignore"...
Why did you do that?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I suppose even attention-seeking malcontents deserve a second chance?
peacockcoins
A second chance at what?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
The highest setting of megapixels for my Elikliv® Digital Microscope is 3. I know that's not great but for under a $100 that's as good as it's going to get for the time being. I might do a photographic equipment upgrade with the goal to get higher resolution images at some later time. I like the small television-like screen on my Elikliv®. I'll be able to easily do tracings of 1909 date/'S' mintmark positions and, too,VDB's by using the screen for this in the pursuit of solving my SVDB mystery.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
an iphone6 is quite capable and quite inexpensive. obviously the better generation, the better the camera. lighting is the most important factor, WAY over the type/quality of camera. fwiw
thanks for the image, if no one beats me to it, i'll tinker with it later. i have 2 days of warm (40/50s) weather before the bottom drops out again!
What mystery? It's counterfeit. I took these through the slab with my IPhone.
And these with my $30 microscope/camera.
So, obviously, you don't need "hi-tech" gear.
an iphone6 is quite capable and quite inexpensive. obviously the better generation, the better the camera. lighting is the most important factor, WAY over the type/quality of camera. fwiw
I'm finding that good lighting does seem to be the most important factor in getting good images.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I'm just a beginner in photography.ˈI have taken some pictures of my V.D.B. with my new digital microscope. I haven't been able to capture the third dot, the one after the 'B,' in an image but it can definitely be seen when I rotate the piece just right while inspecting with 10x loupe.
And these with my $30 microscope/camera.
Care to share the make/model of microscope/camera and where you purchased it? Those are great images.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
What did I miss? Brake it up, break it up.
Hoard the keys.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06WD843ZM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks. I just ordered one. Promises to be a very useful tool in helping solve "The whispering V.D.B. mystery."
You say counterfeit but along with others don't have anything to offer about method of manufacture. I heard "added V.D.B." from one commenter. To that commenter I say, "Okay, if added, HOW added?"
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I have sent in some that you can just make out a V.D.B and it come back 1909-S V.D.B so it may be there take the pic sideways then rotate the photo on your phone or laptop or whatever you are using. I could be true. Take some good pictures.
Hoard the keys.
it sure isn't one of the known 4 positions/dies. too far right, low and tilted. since i haven't seen decent image(s) of the vdb, it is either fake, sandwhich, embossed etc.
i really can't support an unknown die w/o other precisely exact specimens. that is the basic process i learned even from the EAC guys when new marriages are found in too low a grade to verify which dies were used or an ultra rarity that has been delisted previously, only to have one found in more modern times, reevaluated and compared with other known newly found specimens, then and almost only then will it be widely accepted and then able to be certified.
edited to add: since it appears to be in a pcgs holder, i think they simply missed it. i can't imagine a new die would NOT have major publicity and fanfare so given how the coin looks, it is not an obvious counterfeit like we usually see and it is so close to position 4, if the vdb isn't suspicious, it isn't hard to see how it was missed. even the mm looks to have the chip in the upper S loop so the vdb will most likely tell the tale. perhaps an edge view would have an answer.
Thanks Lance. How does my piece compare to Die #6 used for 1909-S without V.D.B. which is known to have been paired with both old and new (style of 1910) reverse?
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@LanceNewmanOCC ,
I gotta say, as an engineer who has done a lot of analysis on various things, I REALLY like these images and your approach to this.
.
Here is one of them. And there are 5 isn’t there?
I don’t know I never seen the pictures are they still up or available?
Hoard the keys.
it kinda appears to match 09-s (non-vdb) obverse #6. i doubt it is impossible a few random 09-s vdb coulda been struck by one of the 09-s obv dies but we don't have the pictures here to make that distinctoin. imo
thanks.
the go-to guys i use(d) (now they are retiring/passing away) do this and more, as should be. how in the world the guys of old did it really blows my mind. oh that's right, they did it, JUST by hand!!!
Copy that ya I look for them all the time hard to see but they are out there. Here is a ANACS holder with one.
Hoard the keys.
forgive me but i've only part of my focus and was ONLY just able to get those 2 comps together. gonna make this my last post for a bit and let my mind rest.
09-s vdb (4) positions/dies
09-s (6) positions - probably shared some with 09-s vdb but i haven't done that legwork to 100% confirm but i really should and make cross-reference notes on my original comps. shoulda done it years ago. i really will get it done this year, hopefully soon becoz now it is very much bugging me that i haven't yet.
is that what you are referring to?
Here is another one. No just trying to figure this out as well, I need a beer.
Hoard the keys.
And I will add I will not keep one in my collection just because I want to see the VDB if it’s that hard to see it’s not for me.
Hoard the keys.
idk if it is just from my sample size but pos #1 seems to be the scarcest by FAR. doesn't necesssairly means its rare though. fwiw
the one with the hit to the mm and the weak vdb is #1.
Harsche (Detecting Altered Coins, 5th edition, 1973) states that a total of six obverse dies were used for 1909-S cents. Harsche claims that two of those six were also used for 1909-S V.D.B. Those two would be what we now call PCGS #2 and PCGS #3. Harsche lists three obverse dies used for 1909-S V.D.B. total. Apparently, Harsche never saw what we now call PCGS #1. Otherwise he would have listed it. Very few SVDB's were made using die #1. Die #1, I believe the first one used for SVDB, was quickly pulled out of service because officials at the SF mint did not like what they saw in the final product with this die...so, they moved on with production using #2...then #3...then #4.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
So now how do I go about adding an S below the 1909?
Just kidding. Couldn't resist.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Photoshop?
1909-S position 5 is very, very close to PCGS #4. Harsche describe 1909-S position 5 as "low,far right." As we can see from Mr. Newman's images of #5 the 'S' is vertical, no tilt at all. PCGS #4 (for 1909-S V.D.B.) is described by Harsche as "low right nearly vertical." #6 die is described by Harsche as "far low, far right." And as we can see the 'S' for die #6 has a very definite clockwise tilt.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)