Embossings occur near the rim. Look at the Buffalo Nickel. But those embossings are pushed up with single letters. (S or D). The opposite side is covered with a cloth or something to eliminate scratches or damage.
It would be extremely difficult to emboss a V.D.B. There would have to be three separate holes drilled, each hole large enough to accommodate a letter and a period.
The most obvious and easiest way is to add the letters, or find a 1909-P to use and add the S. Of course that would result in the wrong placement of the periods (a dead giveaway).
Just for the sake of information, embossings can be detected without examining the edge. (Think Buffalo Nickels) . Every die has surface characteristics exclusively to the die. Sometimes there are lines, polishing marks, etc. in the mintmark area.
When the die is sent to have the mintmark applied, it is, of course AFTER the die was made. The mint applied mintmark will be clear and separate from any deformaty or polish or damage in the area.
When a mintmark is pushed up, it will carry through it any markings or lines that exist in the area. For example, polishing lines are visible in the mintmark area. When the fake mintmark is pushed up, it will contain the flow lines that were there. They were also pushed up and reside on the fake mintmark.
You see, when a mint employee hammers a mintmark into the die, it will, by force alone, eradicate any anomalies on the die's surface.
WHEW!
Way too verbose, hope this helps.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
You are being talked about on other coin forums now... here is what they are saying.
"It's a 1909-S w/added V.D.B. The guy is certifiable. His coin is "one of a kind". I'm just waiting for the thread to be shut down, as the guy continues to make absurd statements about the coin."
"Yeah, he kind of goes off the deep end. Refuses to post a better pic of VDB even though his closeup of 1909-S is good enough to recognize the die chip inside the upper loop of S. Not sure what his game is."
You act like you are trying to make a name for yourself by making the next big numismatic discovery and yet you are just trying to rename work that others have done. The only name you are making for yourself is a fool.
Now you say:
"As long as there is only one known of a coin that looks like mine, I'm thinking it's authenticity will always be questioned no matter who might deem it to be genuine."
"As for sending my piece in for "verification" that might happen but it will only happen AFTER I show my SVDB to the dealer I bought it from for his inspection and opinion."
Why would you believe the dealer when you won't believe any experts here?
Why can't the dealer look at the photos here?
It is clear from your statement you will not believe anyone.
"What's really necessary is for another piece that looks exactly like mine to come out of the woodwork."
If it was made by alteration it's a one of a kind, chances of the counterfeiter being able to exactly duplicate his own work is even remote.
You have been given many options on how to help answer any questions about your coin.
Send it in to PCGS
Have a neighbor kid help you with better photos from their I-phone.
Send it to another member here for professional photos and members have offered to do it.
You don't want this to end and you won't accept the truth even if a dozen experts tell you.
The firm insertion you have going is preventing oxygen from getting to your brain.
Why all the members here have not corrected you with all the chum you have been throwing on the water is beyond me???
@mr1874 said:
{Thanks to all who made worthwhile contributions here}
Most everybody asked for clear reverse pictures and you refused to supply them - it's up to you to be the one with "Worthwhile contributions" to get this fantasy resolved. (Although it's pretty obvious it is already resolved!)
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@BuffaloIronTail said:
Embossings occur near the rim. Look at the Buffalo Nickel. But those embossings are pushed up with single letters. (S or D). The opposite side is covered with a cloth or something to eliminate scratches or damage.
It would be extremely difficult to emboss a V.D.B. There would have to be three separate holes drilled, each hole large enough to accommodate a letter and a period.
The most obvious and easiest way is to add the letters, or find a 1909-P to use and add the S. Of course that would result in the wrong placement of the periods (a dead giveaway).
Just for the sake of information, embossings can be detected without examining the edge. (Think Buffalo Nickels) . Every die has surface characteristics exclusively to the die. Sometimes there are lines, polishing marks, etc. in the mintmark area.
When the die is sent to have the mintmark applied, it is, of course AFTER the die was made. The mint applied mintmark will be clear and separate from any deformaty or polish or damage in the area.
When a mintmark is pushed up, it will carry through it any markings or lines that exist in the area. For example, polishing lines are visible in the mintmark area. When the fake mintmark is pushed up, it will contain the flow lines that were there. They were also pushed up and reside on the fake mintmark.
You see, when a mint employee hammers a mintmark into the die, it will, by force alone, eradicate any anomalies on the die's surface.
WHEW!
Way too verbose, hope this helps.
Pete
Great explanation. Its obvious that the OP didn't understand how this type of fake was made. Hopefully, he now understands why we were asking about the edge. I remember reading all about these fakes in the numismatic press back in the 80s or 90s
I still believe the VDB could be embossed with 3 small holes in the edge, especially since his VDB appears weak. However it's just an opinion. I would like to see a clear focused pic of the edge, if possible
I have nothing to add, I'm just tired of @mr1874 getting all of the attention...
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NGC has articles on counterfeit detection and alterations versus a genuine 1909-S VDB.
They consider added mintmark and added VDB "common" counterfeits; no distinction made in regards to how added...
Added V.D.B., I have a number of certified struck fakes and alterations in my collection, including PCGS.
After seeing thousands of 09-s VDB's, I am certain no number 5 die exists. How much is it? J.P. Martin
Besides trying out patience, this thread has at least given me a much better notion of what genuine VDB looks like.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@KOYNGUY said:
Added V.D.B., I have a number of certified struck fakes and alterations in my collection, including PCGS.
After seeing thousands of 09-s VDB's, I am certain no number 5 die exists. How much is it? J.P. Martin
Not for sale. I will not knowingly sell to anyone what could be a counterfeit or altered coin.
Forget the V.D.B. Have you ever seen a 1909-S without V.D.B. from Harsche obverse die #6 for 1909-S ('S' far low, far right) mated with the "new" reverse, the reverse with the deep valley 'N' in UNITED?
I wish it were possible for one to give their own post a "Like." Would be a good karma thing for PCGS to implement in this forum.
When you're doing your research, you may want to check the qualifications and credentials of JP Martin
I wish it were possible for one to give their own post a "Like." Would be a good karma thing for PCGS to implement in this forum..
.
.
Liking your own posts would be a good karma thing? I thought Good karma came from being nice to other people.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@mr1874 "I wish it were possible for one to give their own post a "Like." Would be a good karma thing for PCGS to implement in this forum."
I see what is going on here, it's just like when you were about to get your 5th star you just kept posting just to post.
Now you are at 463 "likes" and you can see that 500 "likes" badge in sight so you would like to be able to give yourself 37 more likes to get the badge. You have to "like" you own posts because no one likes your posts and all you get is a bunch of LOL's (laughed at)
@mr1874 said:
If V.D.B. added on my coin, the canvas piece used was a genuine 1909-S from obverse die #6 with the "new" reverse. I've searched on ebay. Looked at a number of 1909-S's for sale with 'S' far low, far right. The ones I've seen there so far all have the "old" reverse. Have not seen a "#6, new" yet.
Not demanding a reply from Mr. Martin in this matter, simply requesting an answer to my important question. The answer could range from "I don't know" to "yes, here's an image of a certified one (best would be PCGS with a cert #) for you to gaze upon."
You have beat this coin and the forum to death over the last 2 months!
Not demanding a reply from Mr. Martin in this matter, simply requesting an answer to my important question. The answer could range from "I don't know" to "yes, here's an image of a certified one (best would be PCGS with a cert #) for you to gaze upon."
You left out "no, just send your coin back to PCGS and be done with it."
"......What I'm doing now is called NUMISMATIC RESEARCH. It's an "old school" concept akin to grading a coin just using words, sans numbers, pluses, green beans and the like."
Doing research or chasing windmills?
The 1909-SVDB has been heavily counterfeited for decades and because of that, it's been heavily studied. Yet there are only 4 known obverse dies. If a 5th die existed, wouldn't multiple examples have been found by now? Wouldn't Dr.Sol Taylor, or David Lange, or Q. David Bowers (mega Redbook Lincoln cents in it's second edition) all well known Lincoln cent researchers, have commented on it in their books?
You still haven't bothered to check the edge to confirm the VDB wasn't embossed (assuming it isn't covered by a prong in the slab). Why not? Embossing was used to add mm to buffalo nickels (do some research on that). Why not use it to add the VDB near the rim? Especially since it's a weak VDB ("whispering" as you called it.). Easy to check and rule out. Ask your dealer to check the edge if your not familiar with the characteristics of refilled holes on these counterfeits (if your dealer is knowledgeable, he should know to check this on a suspect coin)
If you wanted to do some research, why not go through the existing Lincoln cent books and see what they have to say about minting timelines, old vs new rev die, VDB characteristics, etc. You could also go to the Newman Numismatic Portal and see if they have any mint records about die usage information. What about communicating with Mr. Lange (he is active on the NGC forum)? That would be research. Is waiting for an unnamed dealer to verify the coin "research"?
Do you think it's possible that PCGS made a mistake? That seems like the most likely scenario.
Until you have some solid info to report, why keep posting speculation. By now, everybody knows what you believe. Time for some results from some real research.
Hope this helps point you in the right direction
My research is not only about SVDB the coin itself but also research to allow a historical perspective to explain how my SVDB and a few like it might have come to be.
Embossed? Are you kidding me? Three letters and three dots embossed on a thinner-than-a-nickel penny? I would say the coin absolutely HAS TO come out of the holder to examine for embossed because one of the PCGS prongs is directly below the V.D.B.
The letters and dots on my SVDB are crisp, well defined. There are actually only two dots. One between the 'V' and 'D.' The other between the 'D' and 'B'. A dot after the 'B' I'm not seeing. How much thicker is a nickel than a penny? How much harder is a nickel (75% copper) than a bronze (95% copper) penny? Squeezing a V.D.B. onto the reverse of a thinner,softer- than-a-nickel bronze penny? Seems to me would be impossible to get letters and dots that are crisp and well-defined by embossing. Use too much squeezing pressure to make the letters and dots one would see distortion of some kind on the other side of the canvas. Not enough squeezing pressure used and all one would get is blobs for letters and dots. Seems impossible that the V.D.B on my piece was made by embossing.
Comments
"Know of any fake SVDB's produced by embossing a V.D.B. onto a genuine, expensive (relatively) 1909-S?"
"Images of such are welcome here."
I posted images of one in another thread for you but if you didn't look at it or accept it there why would you look at it here?
Another day of attention for Don Quixote and his counterfeit coin.
Embossings occur near the rim. Look at the Buffalo Nickel. But those embossings are pushed up with single letters. (S or D). The opposite side is covered with a cloth or something to eliminate scratches or damage.
It would be extremely difficult to emboss a V.D.B. There would have to be three separate holes drilled, each hole large enough to accommodate a letter and a period.
The most obvious and easiest way is to add the letters, or find a 1909-P to use and add the S. Of course that would result in the wrong placement of the periods (a dead giveaway).
Just for the sake of information, embossings can be detected without examining the edge. (Think Buffalo Nickels) . Every die has surface characteristics exclusively to the die. Sometimes there are lines, polishing marks, etc. in the mintmark area.
When the die is sent to have the mintmark applied, it is, of course AFTER the die was made. The mint applied mintmark will be clear and separate from any deformaty or polish or damage in the area.
When a mintmark is pushed up, it will carry through it any markings or lines that exist in the area. For example, polishing lines are visible in the mintmark area. When the fake mintmark is pushed up, it will contain the flow lines that were there. They were also pushed up and reside on the fake mintmark.
You see, when a mint employee hammers a mintmark into the die, it will, by force alone, eradicate any anomalies on the die's surface.
WHEW!
Way too verbose, hope this helps.
Pete
"My slabbed SVDB is so wrong that it's right."
You are being talked about on other coin forums now... here is what they are saying.
"It's a 1909-S w/added V.D.B. The guy is certifiable. His coin is "one of a kind". I'm just waiting for the thread to be shut down, as the guy continues to make absurd statements about the coin."
"Yeah, he kind of goes off the deep end. Refuses to post a better pic of VDB even though his closeup of 1909-S is good enough to recognize the die chip inside the upper loop of S. Not sure what his game is."
You act like you are trying to make a name for yourself by making the next big numismatic discovery and yet you are just trying to rename work that others have done. The only name you are making for yourself is a fool.
Now you say:
"As long as there is only one known of a coin that looks like mine, I'm thinking it's authenticity will always be questioned no matter who might deem it to be genuine."
"As for sending my piece in for "verification" that might happen but it will only happen AFTER I show my SVDB to the dealer I bought it from for his inspection and opinion."
Why would you believe the dealer when you won't believe any experts here?
Why can't the dealer look at the photos here?
It is clear from your statement you will not believe anyone.
"What's really necessary is for another piece that looks exactly like mine to come out of the woodwork."
If it was made by alteration it's a one of a kind, chances of the counterfeiter being able to exactly duplicate his own work is even remote.
You have been given many options on how to help answer any questions about your coin.
Send it in to PCGS
Have a neighbor kid help you with better photos from their I-phone.
Send it to another member here for professional photos and members have offered to do it.
You don't want this to end and you won't accept the truth even if a dozen experts tell you.
The firm insertion you have going is preventing oxygen from getting to your brain.
Why all the members here have not corrected you with all the chum you have been throwing on the water is beyond me???
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You always want to deflect with memes when the questions get tough rather than respond.
Here's a few memes for ya.
Most everybody asked for clear reverse pictures and you refused to supply them - it's up to you to be the one with "Worthwhile contributions" to get this fantasy resolved. (Although it's pretty obvious it is already resolved!)
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Guess we need to take this one question at a time.
A meme is not an answer
Why would you believe your dealer when you won't believe any experts here?
What’s the end game here? I’m surprised it’s still going.
There is no end game. Part 2 starts all over in March if not sooner.
It will be late March or April before Part 1 is over(hopefully). I guess I'm not helping.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I’ve followed this thread for far to long. This is a easy fix send it back to be reviewed. End of story. Anything after this point is trolling
Martin
Great explanation. Its obvious that the OP didn't understand how this type of fake was made. Hopefully, he now understands why we were asking about the edge. I remember reading all about these fakes in the numismatic press back in the 80s or 90s
I still believe the VDB could be embossed with 3 small holes in the edge, especially since his VDB appears weak. However it's just an opinion. I would like to see a clear focused pic of the edge, if possible
I have nothing to add, I'm just tired of @mr1874 getting all of the attention...
NGC has articles on counterfeit detection and alterations versus a genuine 1909-S VDB.
They consider added mintmark and added VDB "common" counterfeits; no distinction made in regards to how added...
@burfle23 So NGC says Added/Whispering VDB's are common, thanks for the info.
Mystery Solved! Question Answered!
No need for Part 2 , 3 & 4 over the next 6 months!
WoooHooo!
Added V.D.B., I have a number of certified struck fakes and alterations in my collection, including PCGS.
After seeing thousands of 09-s VDB's, I am certain no number 5 die exists. How much is it? J.P. Martin
Besides trying out patience, this thread has at least given me a much better notion of what genuine VDB looks like.
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
When you're doing your research, you may want to check the qualifications and credentials of JP Martin
.
.
Liking your own posts would be a good karma thing? I thought Good karma came from being nice to other people.
If we all logged off would he still be talking?
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I think you have an answer to your question.
"I can tell you that the 'B' on my V.D.B. ........ Blah.... Blah,,,, Blah...."
No one cares about your coin!
Not trying to prolong this but just adding a little levity here
...
A friend sent me images of a probably unique certified1909 with the "invisible" VDB!
Wow! an invisible VDB would go good with a whispering VDB!
Maybe the same bored mint worker traveled to Philadelphia and removed it to create an error.
@mr1874 "Thanks to all who made worthwhile contributions here"
Why don't you make a worthwhile contribution and quit posting?
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"I have an important question that needs an answer:"
@KOYNGUY
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874
"I wish it were possible for one to give their own post a "Like." Would be a good karma thing for PCGS to implement in this forum."
I see what is going on here, it's just like when you were about to get your 5th star you just kept posting just to post.
Now you are at 463 "likes" and you can see that 500 "likes" badge in sight so you would like to be able to give yourself 37 more likes to get the badge. You have to "like" you own posts because no one likes your posts and all you get is a bunch of LOL's (laughed at)
You have beat this coin and the forum to death over the last 2 months!
No one cares about your coin anymore!
No need to shout is there? Don't like my posts, don't enter the thread to read and/or reply. Am I twisting anybody's arm to read what I post?
Mr. Martin (KOYNGUY) asked "How much is it?" Kind of a curious question to ask if no one cares about my coin anymore?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Mr. Martin (KOYNGUY) asked "How much is it?"
And you answered his question with another question about a different coin.
"Is 1909-S without V.D.B. that comes from obverse die #6 known with the new reverse?"
You left out "no, just send your coin back to PCGS and be done with it."
READ what I posted in response to Mr. Martin's (KOYNGUY) inquiry, "How much is it?"
I wrote, "Not for sale. I will not knowingly sell to anyone what could be a counterfeit or altered coin."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Answers can be transmitted via the PM option. No use adding to your post count by posting dribble that adds nothing to this thread.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Another mass delete of all the idiotic comments and forum trolling!
@HeatherBoyd Before I poop on the carpet and you have to forum euthanize me could you do anything to help here?
She could probably tell you to ignore more
no return in March forthcoming
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
He was asking because he collects counterfeits. Get a grip.