I have very good contacts at PCGS and could help facilitate a proper review/ re-examination of this coin if that would be of interest. It appears to me the issue isn't that it does NOT match current known and recognized varieties of '09-S VDB but would have to be authenticated as a new die pair.
The downside is it is actually a counterfeit or an altered example and PCGS just missed it...
I also have good contacts at NGC, ANACS and ICG if a more independent review would be appropriate.
If it were my coin I would want to know one way or the other!
If it were a new variety, why would you not wish to have it validated, you would with any other coin, why not this one? Why not take it to a neighborhood kid with an Iphone or samsung phone and let them take pics of your coin for the forum, why not take it to your dealer friend and have them write an opinion? These last two will do nothing to prove your point, but might make you feel like you are actually doing something to prove a point other than beating transportation. How about this, to put this to bed once and for all, I'll donate $5 toward your review costs if 9 others will also, you can send it in for a true evaluation. Good luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jesbroken said:
If it were a new variety, why would you not wish to have it validated, you would with any other coin, why not this one? Why not take it to a neighborhood kid with an Iphone or samsung phone and let them take pics of your coin for the forum, why not take it to your dealer friend and have them write an opinion? These last two will do nothing to prove your point, but might make you feel like you are actually doing something to prove a point other than beating transportation. How about this, to put this to bed once and for all, I'll donate $5 toward your review costs if 9 others will also, you can send it in for a true evaluation. Good luck.
Jim
Beating transportation? He's beating a dead horse. The solution looks simple to me:
GUARANTEE RESUBMISSION: If you have a PCGS-graded coin that you feel is overgraded, misattributed, or counterfeit, submit the coin to PCGS through the Guarantee Resubmission Service. A fee of $25 per coin must accompany all submissions through this service (Standard or Gold Shield). If your coin is downgraded, the terms of the PCGS Guarantee will apply and all fees and charges related to the Guarantee Resubmission will be refunded.
i think we can get pretty far here w/o the tpg if we just had some high-end large (dimension) images.
obviously it is only close to position #4 and i have some commentary but it is too speculative for the quality of the image provided other than the mm is rotated enough to be different than #4.
What is more likely here? That you have a counterfeit coin from probably the most counterfeited US coin ever counterfeited... or that you have purchased by happenstance a genuine example of the most popular Lincoln cent that just so happens to match none of the known dies?
The 1909-s VDB has been studied for a century, and the diagnostics of legit examples shared freely to combat the fakes, added mintmarks, and alterations. Do you really believe that somehow this die pair was missed?
Ever hear of Occam's Razor?
I dont mean to sound facetious, but the simplest explanation is usually the best one.
And I'll add, sometimes it's the hardest to accept.
Good luck. If it is a genuine slab, PCGS will want that one back.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@mr1874 said:
I'm a PCGS gold club member now so not asking for folks to pass the hat for grading/authentication fees.
Obverse is from a die used for 1909-S without V.D. B. I have a companion piece. It is a 1909-S ANACS VF20 from the same obverse die as my SVDB.
The V.D.B on my piece, to make my piece a fake, would have to have been relief etched onto a genuine 1909-S cent by a very skilled counterfeiter.Was the VDB struck by the SF mint or was it added by a counterfeiter? That is the BIG question to be answered.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
There is no use - this has been going on for almost 2 months with the same bs - without that fake VDB-S cent, there would be no attention craved by the OP
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Just send the damn thing in to PCGS and be done with it, or will you miss all of the attention? Better yet, give it back to the guy that sold it to you and take a new one from him. That way you can start a whole new thread about your new acquisition(more attention).
As it appears you will not be sending it in to PCGS for reauthentication, which if anyone truly believed it to be a "New" variety would do, just refund it from your friend dealer and go buy one on etsy.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I am interested in buying it for the research; if it pans out to be a new variety of genuine '09-S VDB I will sell it back to you reholdered as such for the same price.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i think we can get pretty far here w/o the tpg if we just had some high-end large (dimension) images.
obviously it is only close to position #4 and i have some commentary but it is too speculative for the quality of the image provided other than the mm is rotated enough to be different than #4.
Lance, the 'S' position of my piece matches EXACTLY with my companion piece (ANACS VF20) from Harsche die #6 for 1909-S without V.D.B.
My without V.D.B. 1909-S has the "old" reverse. I think I'm going to try to find a 1909-S with a "new" reverse that has an obverse with 'S' far low, far right. The search goes on.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
a use of a 09-s obv previously publicly unknown with a vdb
an altogether unknown 09-s obv
the closest the pic in the pcgs? holder from the op is to ANY of the known obv dies is 09-s #6.
none of the 09-s vdb have mm rotation of any consequence so they are instantly eliminated.
there is a small chance it is #6 but since new images are being refused to be uploaded, the coin will remain in question.
Wasn't it already in his hands? Did he buy it slabbed or get it slabbed? Showing it to the guy that sold it to you isn't numismatic research. He should have done a little "research" BEFORE he sold it to you.
"......What I'm doing now is called NUMISMATIC RESEARCH. It's an "old school" concept akin to grading a coin just using words, sans numbers, pluses, green beans and the like."
Doing research or chasing windmills?
The 1909-SVDB has been heavily counterfeited for decades and because of that, it's been heavily studied. Yet there are only 4 known obverse dies. If a 5th die existed, wouldn't multiple examples have been found by now? Wouldn't Dr.Sol Taylor, or David Lange, or Q. David Bowers (mega Redbook Lincoln cents in it's second edition) all well known Lincoln cent researchers, have commented on it in their books?
You still haven't bothered to check the edge to confirm the VDB wasn't embossed (assuming it isn't covered by a prong in the slab). Why not? Embossing was used to add mm to buffalo nickels (do some research on that). Why not use it to add the VDB near the rim? Especially since it's a weak VDB ("whispering" as you called it.). Easy to check and rule out. Ask your dealer to check the edge if your not familiar with the characteristics of refilled holes on these counterfeits (if your dealer is knowledgeable, he should know to check this on a suspect coin)
If you wanted to do some research, why not go through the existing Lincoln cent books and see what they have to say about minting timelines, old vs new rev die, VDB characteristics, etc. You could also go to the Newman Numismatic Portal and see if they have any mint records about die usage information. What about communicating with Mr. Lange (he is active on the NGC forum)? That would be research. Is waiting for an unnamed dealer to verify the coin "research"?
Do you think it's possible that PCGS made a mistake? That seems like the most likely scenario.
Until you have some solid info to report, why keep posting speculation. By now, everybody knows what you believe. Time for some results from some real research.
The mint mark in the wrong position for one of the 4 known obverse dies is a big red flag! The deep N (Type 2) reverse is a big red flag! The "Whispering VDB" is a big red flag! The slant on the side bar and center bar of the B is wrong and is a big red flag! The dot closer to the D than B is a big red flag!
@mr1874 said:
Thanks for your help, Lance. Your work on 1909-S V.D.B.'s is second to none.
I wish I could provide enlarged and better images of the date and mintmark but I don't have the photographic equipment and know-how to do so.
ty for the compliment. a lot of sharp minds around here and i like to think of us all grinding up together gets all of us a little shinier and smoother. ( steve jobs talks about this in the "lost interview)
if you are serious, take pictures and don't edit them. then upload here. they may be a couple mb in size. the images in the op have been heavily cropped so we can't enlarge them w/o serious pixelation.
we have assisted MANY a discoverer here with their coins JUST from good images and a little conversation and while the TPGs are the go-to, believe you me, there are many a member on this board they go-to and are more than capable of being staffed at any of them.
top reason for things getting dragged out like this, refusal/inability to do 1 thing, upload good images. hope it helps.
The images are good enough to see and the OP has confirmed that the mint mark is not one of the known 4.
You can stop right there, no additional photos are needed.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
The images are good enough to see and the OP has confirmed that the mint mark is not one of the known 4.
You can stop right there, no additional photos are needed.
True - there have been numerous other threads and pictures of the OP's coin that others have shown the VDB is not correct but he will not accept the conclusions. The OP has posted numerous other CLEAR MAGNIFIED pictures of his other coins but for some reason he will not/cannot post any clear mag pics of the reverse "VDB" of his miracle o9S-VDB . - now why do you think that is? Hint, hint....
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
( pictures of the OP's coin that others have shown the VDB is not correct but he will not accept the conclusions)
For instance I will repost this picture that was posted earlier in this thread. Once again OP disregards the proof and just keeps plodding ahead with his overactive imagination...............
@mr1874"How much thicker is a nickel than a penny? How much harder is a nickel (75% copper) than a bronze (95% copper) penny? Squeezing a V.D.B. onto the reverse of a thinner,softer- than-a-nickel bronze penny? Seems to me would be impossible to get letters and dots that are crisp and well-defined by embossing. Use too much squeezing pressure to make the letters and dots one would see distortion of some kind on the other side of the canvas. Not enough squeezing pressure used and all one would get is blobs for letters and dots. Seems impossible that the V.D.B on my piece was made by embossing."
It is done on 1916 dimes to add a D.
A dime is thinner than a penny.
If you are saying "seems impossible" you are not keeping an open mind or doing any research.
Comments
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I hear it whispering too. It's saying "Fake".
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I have very good contacts at PCGS and could help facilitate a proper review/ re-examination of this coin if that would be of interest. It appears to me the issue isn't that it does NOT match current known and recognized varieties of '09-S VDB but would have to be authenticated as a new die pair.
The downside is it is actually a counterfeit or an altered example and PCGS just missed it...
I also have good contacts at NGC, ANACS and ICG if a more independent review would be appropriate.
If it were my coin I would want to know one way or the other!
If it were a new variety, why would you not wish to have it validated, you would with any other coin, why not this one? Why not take it to a neighborhood kid with an Iphone or samsung phone and let them take pics of your coin for the forum, why not take it to your dealer friend and have them write an opinion? These last two will do nothing to prove your point, but might make you feel like you are actually doing something to prove a point other than beating transportation. How about this, to put this to bed once and for all, I'll donate $5 toward your review costs if 9 others will also, you can send it in for a true evaluation. Good luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Beating transportation? He's beating a dead horse. The solution looks simple to me:
GUARANTEE RESUBMISSION: If you have a PCGS-graded coin that you feel is overgraded, misattributed, or counterfeit, submit the coin to PCGS through the Guarantee Resubmission Service. A fee of $25 per coin must accompany all submissions through this service (Standard or Gold Shield). If your coin is downgraded, the terms of the PCGS Guarantee will apply and all fees and charges related to the Guarantee Resubmission will be refunded.
i think we can get pretty far here w/o the tpg if we just had some high-end large (dimension) images.
obviously it is only close to position #4 and i have some commentary but it is too speculative for the quality of the image provided other than the mm is rotated enough to be different than #4.
What is more likely here? That you have a counterfeit coin from probably the most counterfeited US coin ever counterfeited... or that you have purchased by happenstance a genuine example of the most popular Lincoln cent that just so happens to match none of the known dies?
The 1909-s VDB has been studied for a century, and the diagnostics of legit examples shared freely to combat the fakes, added mintmarks, and alterations. Do you really believe that somehow this die pair was missed?
Ever hear of Occam's Razor?
I dont mean to sound facetious, but the simplest explanation is usually the best one.
And I'll add, sometimes it's the hardest to accept.
Good luck. If it is a genuine slab, PCGS will want that one back.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'd pay to re-submit it. PCGS should get a look at it. That will clear up some of it.
Just think. If it's a genuine Die#5 you got yourself a discovery coin and fame and fortune to go with it.
I myself would want to prove what it is by any means.
Wouldn't it be something if it's genuine?
Pete
My point, transportation is dead in this country.
jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Is the straight B on VDB a new variety also? I have only seen left slanted B's on any original S VDB's.
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
There is no use - this has been going on for almost 2 months with the same bs - without that fake VDB-S cent, there would be no attention craved by the OP
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Looks just like the OP's
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"Of course, I'm making a big,big ass out of myself"
YUUUP!!!!!!!!!!!
Just in case you didn't believe me -.....................
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Just send the damn thing in to PCGS and be done with it, or will you miss all of the attention? Better yet, give it back to the guy that sold it to you and take a new one from him. That way you can start a whole new thread about your new acquisition(more attention).
As it appears you will not be sending it in to PCGS for reauthentication, which if anyone truly believed it to be a "New" variety would do, just refund it from your friend dealer and go buy one on etsy.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I am interested in buying it for the research; if it pans out to be a new variety of genuine '09-S VDB I will sell it back to you reholdered as such for the same price.
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Lance, the 'S' position of my piece matches EXACTLY with my companion piece (ANACS VF20) from Harsche die #6 for 1909-S without V.D.B.
My without V.D.B. 1909-S has the "old" reverse. I think I'm going to try to find a 1909-S with a "new" reverse that has an obverse with 'S' far low, far right. The search goes on.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You win the gold medal for the most obstinate collector. Like someone has said, anyone else would sent it in for verification.
so this can only be one of 3 things.
the closest the pic in the pcgs? holder from the op is to ANY of the known obv dies is 09-s #6.
none of the 09-s vdb have mm rotation of any consequence so they are instantly eliminated.
there is a small chance it is #6 but since new images are being refused to be uploaded, the coin will remain in question.
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Wasn't it already in his hands? Did he buy it slabbed or get it slabbed? Showing it to the guy that sold it to you isn't numismatic research. He should have done a little "research" BEFORE he sold it to you.
What you are doing is called "Hemming and Hawing" - period!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
"......What I'm doing now is called NUMISMATIC RESEARCH. It's an "old school" concept akin to grading a coin just using words, sans numbers, pluses, green beans and the like."
Doing research or chasing windmills?
The 1909-SVDB has been heavily counterfeited for decades and because of that, it's been heavily studied. Yet there are only 4 known obverse dies. If a 5th die existed, wouldn't multiple examples have been found by now? Wouldn't Dr.Sol Taylor, or David Lange, or Q. David Bowers (mega Redbook Lincoln cents in it's second edition) all well known Lincoln cent researchers, have commented on it in their books?
You still haven't bothered to check the edge to confirm the VDB wasn't embossed (assuming it isn't covered by a prong in the slab). Why not? Embossing was used to add mm to buffalo nickels (do some research on that). Why not use it to add the VDB near the rim? Especially since it's a weak VDB ("whispering" as you called it.). Easy to check and rule out. Ask your dealer to check the edge if your not familiar with the characteristics of refilled holes on these counterfeits (if your dealer is knowledgeable, he should know to check this on a suspect coin)
If you wanted to do some research, why not go through the existing Lincoln cent books and see what they have to say about minting timelines, old vs new rev die, VDB characteristics, etc. You could also go to the Newman Numismatic Portal and see if they have any mint records about die usage information. What about communicating with Mr. Lange (he is active on the NGC forum)? That would be research. Is waiting for an unnamed dealer to verify the coin "research"?
Do you think it's possible that PCGS made a mistake? That seems like the most likely scenario.
Until you have some solid info to report, why keep posting speculation. By now, everybody knows what you believe. Time for some results from some real research.
Hope this helps point you in the right direction
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The mint mark in the wrong position for one of the 4 known obverse dies is a big red flag!
The deep N (Type 2) reverse is a big red flag!
The "Whispering VDB" is a big red flag!
The slant on the side bar and center bar of the B is wrong and is a big red flag!
The dot closer to the D than B is a big red flag!
One
and you're done!
Thanks for your help, Lance. Your work on 1909-S V.D.B.'s is second to none.
I wish I could provide enlarged and better images of the date and mintmark but I don't have the photographic equipment and know-how to do so.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
ty for the compliment. a lot of sharp minds around here and i like to think of us all grinding up together gets all of us a little shinier and smoother. ( steve jobs talks about this in the "lost interview)
if you are serious, take pictures and don't edit them. then upload here. they may be a couple mb in size. the images in the op have been heavily cropped so we can't enlarge them w/o serious pixelation.
we have assisted MANY a discoverer here with their coins JUST from good images and a little conversation and while the TPGs are the go-to, believe you me, there are many a member on this board they go-to and are more than capable of being staffed at any of them.
top reason for things getting dragged out like this, refusal/inability to do 1 thing, upload good images. hope it helps.
The images are good enough to see and the OP has confirmed that the mint mark is not one of the known 4.
You can stop right there, no additional photos are needed.
True - there have been numerous other threads and pictures of the OP's coin that others have shown the VDB is not correct but he will not accept the conclusions. The OP has posted numerous other CLEAR MAGNIFIED pictures of his other coins but for some reason he will not/cannot post any clear mag pics of the reverse "VDB" of his miracle o9S-VDB . - now why do you think that is? Hint, hint....
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
( pictures of the OP's coin that others have shown the VDB is not correct but he will not accept the conclusions)
For instance I will repost this picture that was posted earlier in this thread. Once again OP disregards the proof and just keeps plodding ahead with his overactive imagination...............
EDIT: Picture originally posted by @jesbroken
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 "How much thicker is a nickel than a penny? How much harder is a nickel (75% copper) than a bronze (95% copper) penny? Squeezing a V.D.B. onto the reverse of a thinner,softer- than-a-nickel bronze penny? Seems to me would be impossible to get letters and dots that are crisp and well-defined by embossing. Use too much squeezing pressure to make the letters and dots one would see distortion of some kind on the other side of the canvas. Not enough squeezing pressure used and all one would get is blobs for letters and dots. Seems impossible that the V.D.B on my piece was made by embossing."
It is done on 1916 dimes to add a D.
A dime is thinner than a penny.
If you are saying "seems impossible" you are not keeping an open mind or doing any research.
delete
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein