A larger pic of the area would help. Your pic looks farther right.
Pete
Compare the position of the 'S' relative to the date. My piece has the lowest, farthest right 'S' of all obverse dies used for 1909-S cents. Bert Harsche in "Detecting Altered Coins" Fifth edition identifies this die for 1909-S cents as #6, far low, far right (FLFR). Also, the 'S' on my SVDB tilts to the right much more than the 'S' seen on PCGS die #4
Re: PCGS die #4 for 1909-S V.D.B.
The 'S' is not as low nor is it as far right as the 'S' on my SVDB or my 1909-S without V.D.B., for that matter.
Blurry photo of V.D.B. or not, it does not appear to me to be a genuine 1909 S "VDB". The tops of the dots shouldn't be inline. If wrong, I'll be glad to see better photos that prove the point. A quality photo would solve the issue. Cannot tell from photo's whether center of B is tilted NE or if the "N" is a Shallow N or not. I feel not, but then not positive of those two.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
I am curious if anyone thinks mr1874 has any compelling evidence for his previous claims about the source/ authenticity of this particular example. I can't see any of his comments on "ignore" but can only imagine...
@Picker1954 said:
What is holding you back from sending it back to PCGS to validate the coin? If they again say it's genuine, you have the only one graded.
I would definitely ask them to state something on the label, like Hersche #5 or whispering VDB to diferentiate this unique piece.
@Picker1954 said:
What is holding you back from sending it back to PCGS to validate the coin? If they again say it's genuine, you have the only one graded.
Would the coin in a generation 6.15 holder be validation enough?
My SVDB is currently in a gen 6.1 holder.
I don't believe so.
The TPG could have made a mistake. Labeling errors are posted here regularly, and due to the volume of coins graded, it wouldn't be out of the question.
IMO, you need to have this labeled on the slab as a new obverse or you'll continue to see serious doubts in the numismatic community. Another option is to write an article for a numismatic periodical such as the Numismatist or Coin Week. That would initiate serious discussion. Short of that, I haven't seen anything other than a lot of supposition. You still haven't shown the edges (or at least commented that you examined them in detail) by the mm or vdb, to rule out embossing.
You're making an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Until you have additional evaluation from a TPG, publish an article, or have a bona fide Lincoln cent expert support your claim, I'm afraid it will be an uphill battle.
mr1931S
Posts: 5,751 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
This is Die#4
A larger pic of the area would help. Your pic looks farther right.
Pete
The VDB is not clear enough to verify it wasn’t added
the reverse N is notched lower
Compare the position of the 'S' relative to the date. My piece has the lowest, farthest right 'S' of all obverse dies used for 1909-S cents. Bert Harsche in "Detecting Altered Coins" Fifth edition identifies this die for 1909-S cents as #6, far low, far right (FLFR). Also, the 'S' on my SVDB tilts to the right much more than the 'S' seen on PCGS die #4
Re: PCGS die #4 for 1909-S V.D.B.
The 'S' is not as low nor is it as far right as the 'S' on my SVDB or my 1909-S without V.D.B., for that matter.
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If a Die#5 exists, where did they all go?
I'm not the authority to make any call on this.
Pete
by added it could also mean embossed
the color has been left off the label
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It should read F15BN instead of F15
Embossing involves opening a hole on the rim and use tools to push metal vertically to add an element. The hole is sealed afterwards.
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I have forwarded the images to my contact at PCGS for his opinion; stay tuned...
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Here is closeup image of my 1909-S V.D.B., date and mintmark area:
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How about a closeup of the V.D.B.?
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It wouldn't confuse me. Post the pic. It makes it seem like you are hiding something otherwise.
Best we could do with the images provided @Picker1954 :
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This is from a coin that I owned at one time. I can't tell if the V.D.B. is the same.
I found more pics.
This where I found it.
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That's not a shallow N. This is:
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Blurry photo of V.D.B. or not, it does not appear to me to be a genuine 1909 S "VDB". The tops of the dots shouldn't be inline. If wrong, I'll be glad to see better photos that prove the point. A quality photo would solve the issue. Cannot tell from photo's whether center of B is tilted NE or if the "N" is a Shallow N or not. I feel not, but then not positive of those two.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
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I am curious if anyone thinks mr1874 has any compelling evidence for his previous claims about the source/ authenticity of this particular example. I can't see any of his comments on "ignore" but can only imagine...
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The "D" on your coin is wrong. Period.
Keep on hemming and hawing about things that remain murky. Don't provide better pics. Keep explaining things away.
I'm done with this.
Bye.................................................
Pete
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What is holding you back from sending it back to PCGS to validate the coin? If they again say it's genuine, you have the only one graded.
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I would definitely ask them to state something on the label, like Hersche #5 or whispering VDB to diferentiate this unique piece.
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I don't believe so.
The TPG could have made a mistake. Labeling errors are posted here regularly, and due to the volume of coins graded, it wouldn't be out of the question.
IMO, you need to have this labeled on the slab as a new obverse or you'll continue to see serious doubts in the numismatic community. Another option is to write an article for a numismatic periodical such as the Numismatist or Coin Week. That would initiate serious discussion. Short of that, I haven't seen anything other than a lot of supposition. You still haven't shown the edges (or at least commented that you examined them in detail) by the mm or vdb, to rule out embossing.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/watch-out-for-embossed-mintmarks
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You're making an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Until you have additional evaluation from a TPG, publish an article, or have a bona fide Lincoln cent expert support your claim, I'm afraid it will be an uphill battle.
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