» show previous quotes
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TurtleCat said:
I agree with @291fifth. For many of us the costs of getting to major shows just isn’t worth it. Factor in those of us who also still have young children, jobs, and such and the opportunity just isn’t there unless you happen to live close by.
It's been my inference that attending shows is worth it for those who turn it into a vacation or for social reasons, such as forum members connecting with other forum members or collectors they know.
It's not economical for hardly anyone else, except as you stated.
My coin budget is for buying coins. I also won't spend any of my vacation time or budget, not even one cent.
From the FAQ
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
@vulcanize said:
From the FAQ
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
I can’t tell whether you’re replying to my previous post (copied below). But if so, as mentioned, the Virtual Bourse that you linked is not an auction venue and there is no buyer’s premium involved.
So my broaching the topic is not going to make any difference, but merely wanted to point out the obvious.
.> @vulcanize said:
» show previous quotes
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@vulcanize said:
From the FAQ
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
I can’t tell whether you’re replying to my previous post (copied below). But if so, as mentioned, the Virtual Bourse that you linked is not an auction venue and there is no buyer’s premium involved.
So my broaching the topic is not going to make any difference, but merely wanted to point out the obvious.
.> @vulcanize said:
» show previous quotes
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
It's pointless. He doesn't understand how the auction fees work in the real world. He also doesn't want to know. He just wants to be mad about the one number he can see.
@MFeld said:
I can’t tell whether you’re replying to my previous post (copied below). But if so, as mentioned, the Virtual Bourse that you linked is not an auction venue and there is no buyer’s premium involved.
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
See the buyers premium tacked on with the listings
@jmlanzaf said:
It's pointless. He doesn't understand how the auction fees work in the real world. He also doesn't want to know. He just wants to be mad about the one number he can see.
it is the very premise which the thread was started upon - the coin shows and the auction houses.
The spillover in the arguments is the bottomline - money involved.
So closing one's eyes and pretending it is dark or not talking about the elephant in the room is definitely not going to help.
@MFeld said:
I can’t tell whether you’re replying to my previous post (copied below). But if so, as mentioned, the Virtual Bourse that you linked is not an auction venue and there is no buyer’s premium involved.
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
See the buyers premium tacked on with the listings
Again, the Virtual Bourse, which you linked previously, is not an auction format, there are no lots and there is no buyer’s premium. Your above posted links pertain to auctions, not the virtual bourse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now.
Not really with TrueView and dealers getting better and better with pics.
No it is disturbing. The human eye can see 14 f stops clearly. A high end camera can only see 9 f stops clearly. I have a nice camera, went on a leaf-peeping trip with the wife, and I couldn't get the bright yellows slightly tinged with orange to look quite right.
Pics often miss thin hairlines, small carbon and verdigris flecks, and sometimes aren't accurate re a coin's color, especially with toned coins. And the optimal lighting for taking photos varies. Optimal lighting for a cameo proof silver coin is different than for an MS 64 BN pre 1815 copper.
If you want to buy sight unseen coins, be my guest. Many coins have no return privilege if they're slabbed. It didn't used to be this way.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@MFeld said:
Again, the Virtual Bourse, which you linked previously, is not an auction format, there are no lots and there is no buyer’s premium. Your above posted links pertain to auctions, not the virtual bourse.
Fine, but there is no denying that there exists a seller's fee and a buyer's premium with most auction houses taking from both.
@BillJones said:
People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it.
Do you suppose it's possible the people you outbid are thinking the same thing about your bids?
Am sure that they are. The only people who make on those auctions are collectors who have owned this material for many years, and the auction house. Young people who are buying these pieces might make out in the long run, or they might not if their contemporaries have no interest in history.
...or they might not if their contemporaries are very interested in history but have no need to hold physical possessions.
I am a novice on the subject of auction premiums and coin shows.
In fact I have never been to a show although that might change regarding a NY or NJ show.
I try to buy double eagles of interest to me from auctions (any auction house) , that I can in theory resell at a relatively small loss (2-5%) at that moment. Prices changes over long periods of time is my advantage/ problem. The buyers commission? Factor in the commission based on the net price I want to pay. A $3000 coin on E-Bay or the same $3000 coin on an auction site with a much higher buyers vig doesn't matter to me.
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
@Zoins said:
The BP issue would go away if auction houses had people bid the final price, not the hammer.
Bidding the hammer is nice because it feels like something from a bygone era, like classic coins
So how do you propose the Auction Houses get paid?
It would be a hidden sellers premium.
So this is exactly the point. I offer three hypotheses: 1) AHs gain prestige and likely money if they can attract high end coins. 2) Consignors are not necessarily savvy about the effect of premiums. 3) Consignors believe bidders are not necessarily savvy about the effects of premiums. We've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence supporting 3) just here in this thread.
Now consider two AHs. One offers (for an extremely high end piece) 0% BP and 10% SP. The other offer 20% BP and -5%SP. That is the consignor nets 105% of hammer. Which AH gets the lion's share of the elite coins? Based on 2) and 3) above, I'd bet it would go to the AH with the bigger margin. If I think that bidders are going to bid $250,000 for my $250,000 coin, I'll want 105% of that $250,000 rather than 90% of it. Even if in the second AH they only receive bids $230,000 they come out ahead.
Of course the question follows, AHs pay charge a -5% SP for $250,000 coins, but for my unopened box of 20 1995 proof sets they want to charge my a 10% SP in addition to a 20% BP. The answer is that they make a lot more off 15% of a $250,000 coin than 30% of a box of common proof sets. They negotiate SPs on higher end items like that for both prestige and profit, but not on more common items. It is impossible to negotiate BPs except for a few easily understandable situations, like a credit card vs. cash BP for all users at GC. You really don't want anyone to say your AH favors certain bidders over the other.
@jkrk said:
I am a novice on the subject of auction premiums and coin shows.
In fact I have never been to a show although that might change regarding a NY or NJ show.
I try to buy double eagles of interest to me from auctions (any auction house) , that I can in theory resell at a relatively small loss (2-5%) at that moment. Prices changes over long periods of time is my advantage/ problem. The buyers commission? Factor in the commission based on the net price I want to pay. A $3000 coin on E-Bay or the same $3000 coin on an auction site with a much higher buyers vig doesn't matter to me.
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
Yes. If the coins you want to buy offer no benefit from seeing in hand and building relationships with local/regional/national dealers has no value to you then there is little point to attending shows. Common coins with well-established prices are not those one needs to go to a show for.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying you're collecting the wrong way, just that a MS 65 1927 Saint is not likely to be stolen at a show where it might slip between the cracks on eBay. No dealer is going to sell one with an easily established value for vastly less because he doesn't understand what he has. Also, he has no need to discount it to you because there are dozens or hundreds of people at the show willing to pay whatever the real price is.
@jkrk said:
I am a novice on the subject of auction premiums and coin shows.
In fact I have never been to a show although that might change regarding a NY or NJ show.
I try to buy double eagles of interest to me from auctions (any auction house) , that I can in theory resell at a relatively small loss (2-5%) at that moment. Prices changes over long periods of time is my advantage/ problem. The buyers commission? Factor in the commission based on the net price I want to pay. A $3000 coin on E-Bay or the same $3000 coin on an auction site with a much higher buyers vig doesn't matter to me.
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
Yes. If the coins you want to buy offer no benefit from seeing in hand and building relationships with local/regional/national dealers has no value to you then there is little point to attending shows. Common coins with well-established prices are not those one needs to go to a show for.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying you're collecting the wrong way, just that a MS 65 1927 Saint is not likely to be stolen at a show where it might slip between the cracks on eBay. No dealer is going to sell one with an easily established value for vastly less because he doesn't understand what he has. Also, he has no need to discount it to you because there are dozens or hundreds of people at the show willing to pay whatever the real price is.
I buy gold. The coins are simply a proxy for gold (generics ..very small premiums).
I do have a few 1927 MS65's. I started the year with 6 sold 2 now still have 4. They were bought when premiums were very, very low. If I remember correctly, I swapped out of 20 64's and bought 20 65's. I do own some somewhat rarer coins such as an 1850, 1851-O, 1862-S, 1857-S (SS Central) as an example. They account for a very, very small number of coins I own versus generics.
@BillJones said:
People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it.
Do you suppose it's possible the people you outbid are thinking the same thing about your bids?
Am sure that they are. The only people who make on those auctions are collectors who have owned this material for many years, and the auction house. Young people who are buying these pieces might make out in the long run, or they might not if their contemporaries have no interest in history.
...or they might not if their contemporaries are very interested in history but have no need to hold physical possessions.
The overlap between the two is a lot more limited than many here seem to believe. Not only does no one need to buy any coin to satisfy their history interest, they certainly don't need to buy one with the attributes that makes hardly any coin expensive.
@7Jaguars said:
I know I bid a lot less with higher premiums and even regret “wins” on smaller items $$.
I recently bought a coin at $625 that was $814 net. I won’t do that again.
And when you sell it with a 20% seller's commission, you will need a $1020 bid to breakeven.
When you end up paying 34% above the hammer price at an auction, the item you are buying has to realize a hammer price that is 34% above what you paid. Heritage offers "a deal" where you can consign to them and get 100% of the hammer price. If you have a large consignment, you might get 105% of the hammer price. that sill leaves you having see a 29 to 30 percent increase in the hammer price just to break even.
If you are into it for only monetary reasons, buying and selling coins at auction is not an attractive situation.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Judging by the attendance of my local shows, I think coin shows will be around for a long time.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
@jkrk said:
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website. Remember that the dealer has to factor the travel, lodging, and table costs into a breakeven/profit number.
This may be slightly different for the whale customers that a dealer needs to court, or if you have a long relationship with a specific dealer. In the two above situations your pricing at the show may be better than the average joe.
I do not fall into those two scenarios so for me traveling long distance to shows is not a good option. The only large show I have gone to is LB (in years past) because I can drive there in one day, I did enjoy the experience for a few reasons. First I was able to meet a couple of dealers that I had bought from before, it is nice to put a face to a name. Second I was able to drop off some coins to Ian at CG that I wanted to sell and could avoid the shipping risks. And third while I usually have little expectation of buying, being able to see such a vast number of coins and grade ranges in one location is educational.
One needs an online retail store and show presence to move inventory for any chance of significant gain. While online auctions like eBay or GC are an acquisition source for me I view them as a liquidation sales option. YMMV. Auction buying I shop around get it at price that works for me, avoid bid war.
Considering the strong attendance at my local shows and table sellout at least from my vantage point shows will be around for a long time. Furthermore there are no online fees just the fixed costs of doing the show which allows me move big ticket material at a narrower spread vs online. Plus I can stack all the budget material under $100 I want in my cases. Stacks of inexpensive currency an example. Many times what I make off that pays my show expense.
I've gone to many shows and just got back from Long Beach, and will continue to go to shows in the future, whether flying or going to a local show. And yes, we (my and my wife) do make vacations around coin shows. If you do have the means, it's a fantastic way to enjoy a few days on coins, sightseeing, visiting family, etc. Life's far too short to sit in a bunker counting your gold coins like Silas Marner.
Coin shows large and small are where you pick up and continue getting an education and paying some tuition. Nothing will ever beat looking at thousands of coins in hand and getting your eyes trained. While online photography and videos have gotten much better over the years, they are no substitute for seeing the coins in person - if possible. Seeing toned coins in hand also helps you see how much some online sellers juice or manipulate their images.
The Coin World podcast did an interview with Larry Shepherd (the dealer turned CSNS convention manager) last month where he elaborated on the economics/logistics of putting on a large show. In short, the financial cost and liability are very high for the orgs that put them on, and there seems to be little margin for error.
I found it interesting, and while Shepherd doesn't speak to it directly, I think it affirms Laura's point that the larger shows may be most at risk if they become wholly separated from auctions.
The problem with auctions at large shows is it draws money away from bourse floor sales, eating into dealer profits. Many times one can find better deals off the bourse floor vs getting in a bid war at auction. While auctions supplement major shows I can’t see the demise of large shows like FUN and Long Beach. Do the show organizers make more money off auctions?
Bidding in an auction at a major currency show I was setup at I got some scarce nice NBN pickups but paid royally considering the bidding competition. But I got the prize I was looking for a nice attractive 1882 AU $10 scarce bank Brownback. The next day some deals came my way (or were at nearby tables) that made me wonder why attend the auction at all. I decided for future budget both bourse room and auction spending equally.
@jkrk said:
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website. Remember that the dealer has to factor the travel, lodging, and table costs into a breakeven/profit number.
This may be slightly different for the whale customers that a dealer needs to court, or if you have a long relationship with a specific dealer. In the two above situations your pricing at the show may be better than the average joe.
I do not fall into those two scenarios so for me traveling long distance to shows is not a good option. The only large show I have gone to is LB (in years past) because I can drive there in one day, I did enjoy the experience for a few reasons. First I was able to meet a couple of dealers that I had bought from before, it is nice to put a face to a name. Second I was able to drop off some coins to Ian at CG that I wanted to sell and could avoid the shipping risks. And third while I usually have little expectation of buying, being able to see such a vast number of coins and grade ranges in one location is educational.
Thank you for your input.
I buy when I believe I can upgrade a coin I own on a favorable price spread (which means I'm using the E-bay bay store to offer the lower grade) or when I believe I spot a "deal" i can't pass up. Otherwise I'm happy to play the hand I have. To paraphrase count Dracula, I have but a single lifetime to collect coins.
Thus when you say, "My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website.". If true, then alas, I have no reason to attend any shows.
Re: whale customers... Are you referring to my weight?
The only long term relationship with a "dealer" I currently maintain is with my wife. The principal coin seller.
Everything you say in your post re dealer pricing makes sense to me. I begrudge no one. God gave me shoulders so i can shrug.
In the end, I'll possibly try the NJ show this winter since my navigation system seems to know where NJ is.
@jkrk said:
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website. Remember that the dealer has to factor the travel, lodging, and table costs into a breakeven/profit number.
This may be slightly different for the whale customers that a dealer needs to court, or if you have a long relationship with a specific dealer. In the two above situations your pricing at the show may be better than the average joe.
I do not fall into those two scenarios so for me traveling long distance to shows is not a good option. The only large show I have gone to is LB (in years past) because I can drive there in one day, I did enjoy the experience for a few reasons. First I was able to meet a couple of dealers that I had bought from before, it is nice to put a face to a name. Second I was able to drop off some coins to Ian at CG that I wanted to sell and could avoid the shipping risks. And third while I usually have little expectation of buying, being able to see such a vast number of coins and grade ranges in one location is educational.
Thank you for your input.
I buy when I believe I can upgrade a coin I own on a favorable price spread (which means I'm using the E-bay bay store to offer the lower grade) or when I believe I spot a "deal" i can't pass up. Otherwise I'm happy to play the hand I have. To paraphrase count Dracula, I have but a single lifetime to collect coins.
Thus when you say, "My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website.". If true, then alas, I have no reason to attend any shows.
Re: whale customers... Are you referring to my weight?
The only long term relationship with a "dealer" I currently maintain is with my wife. The principal coin seller.
Everything you say in your post re dealer pricing makes sense to me. I begrudge no one. God gave me shoulders so i can shrug.
In the end, I'll possibly try the NJ show this winter since my navigation system seems to know where NJ is.
Speaking personally, you can get a better deal on the bourse than on a dealer website if you know the dealer. A dealer candidly told me he had to unload a coin that wasn't moving which it turned out I needed for my type set. I got it for 5% over dealer cost. This has happened more than once.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@coinbuf said:
My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website.
I think it's unlikely that many dealers bring coins to a show that are on their websites, reprice them higher while there and then reduce the prices back to where they were when they get home.
Comments
.> @vulcanize said:
» show previous quotes
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's been my inference that attending shows is worth it for those who turn it into a vacation or for social reasons, such as forum members connecting with other forum members or collectors they know.
It's not economical for hardly anyone else, except as you stated.
My coin budget is for buying coins. I also won't spend any of my vacation time or budget, not even one cent.
From the FAQ
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms
Incidentally, most of the articles on the web point to that link (including the below link of sports cards and memorabilia)
https://www.cardlines.com/heritage-auctions-review/
And a ten year old thread in this very forum also talks about it.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/833421/anyone-know-what-heritages-selling-commissions-are
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I can’t tell whether you’re replying to my previous post (copied below). But if so, as mentioned, the Virtual Bourse that you linked is not an auction venue and there is no buyer’s premium involved.
@vulcanize said:
Take another example of https://www.amrcoins.com/information-and-articles/where-to-sell-your-coins/ from across the pond.
And discussed here before too.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987026/why-do-people-consign-coins-to-auction-houses
So my broaching the topic is not going to make any difference, but merely wanted to point out the obvious.
.> @vulcanize said:
» show previous quotes
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's pointless. He doesn't understand how the auction fees work in the real world. He also doesn't want to know. He just wants to be mad about the one number he can see.
Okay.
Listed under cons in following link
https://www.investopedia.com/best-online-coin-auctions-5191568
Cons
From the FAQ on HA site
https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms
A Buyer's Premium will be added per lot to the successful bid. Minimum Buyer's Premium varies by category. Please see #2 in our Terms & Conditions or the individual lot page for more details.
See the buyers premium tacked on with the listings
https://live.ha.com/live.zx?saleNo=63167&sessionNo=1&ic=LiveAuctionTopBanner-StartingSoon-122815
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
it is the very premise which the thread was started upon - the coin shows and the auction houses.
The spillover in the arguments is the bottomline - money involved.
So closing one's eyes and pretending it is dark or not talking about the elephant in the room is definitely not going to help.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Again, the Virtual Bourse, which you linked previously, is not an auction format, there are no lots and there is no buyer’s premium. Your above posted links pertain to auctions, not the virtual bourse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No it is disturbing. The human eye can see 14 f stops clearly. A high end camera can only see 9 f stops clearly. I have a nice camera, went on a leaf-peeping trip with the wife, and I couldn't get the bright yellows slightly tinged with orange to look quite right.
Pics often miss thin hairlines, small carbon and verdigris flecks, and sometimes aren't accurate re a coin's color, especially with toned coins. And the optimal lighting for taking photos varies. Optimal lighting for a cameo proof silver coin is different than for an MS 64 BN pre 1815 copper.
If you want to buy sight unseen coins, be my guest. Many coins have no return privilege if they're slabbed. It didn't used to be this way.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Fine, but there is no denying that there exists a seller's fee and a buyer's premium with most auction houses taking from both.
And you better tell the folks at https://www.cardlines.com/heritage-auctions-review/ because their link points to the virtual bourse under the following heading
and so do many other articles found on the web.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
...or they might not if their contemporaries are very interested in history but have no need to hold physical possessions.
I am a novice on the subject of auction premiums and coin shows.
In fact I have never been to a show although that might change regarding a NY or NJ show.
I try to buy double eagles of interest to me from auctions (any auction house) , that I can in theory resell at a relatively small loss (2-5%) at that moment. Prices changes over long periods of time is my advantage/ problem. The buyers commission? Factor in the commission based on the net price I want to pay. A $3000 coin on E-Bay or the same $3000 coin on an auction site with a much higher buyers vig doesn't matter to me.
I am looking into whether sellers discount show coins since their selling fees are lower than online. If not, then the show makes little sense for me.
So this is exactly the point. I offer three hypotheses: 1) AHs gain prestige and likely money if they can attract high end coins. 2) Consignors are not necessarily savvy about the effect of premiums. 3) Consignors believe bidders are not necessarily savvy about the effects of premiums. We've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence supporting 3) just here in this thread.
Now consider two AHs. One offers (for an extremely high end piece) 0% BP and 10% SP. The other offer 20% BP and -5%SP. That is the consignor nets 105% of hammer. Which AH gets the lion's share of the elite coins? Based on 2) and 3) above, I'd bet it would go to the AH with the bigger margin. If I think that bidders are going to bid $250,000 for my $250,000 coin, I'll want 105% of that $250,000 rather than 90% of it. Even if in the second AH they only receive bids $230,000 they come out ahead.
Of course the question follows, AHs pay charge a -5% SP for $250,000 coins, but for my unopened box of 20 1995 proof sets they want to charge my a 10% SP in addition to a 20% BP. The answer is that they make a lot more off 15% of a $250,000 coin than 30% of a box of common proof sets. They negotiate SPs on higher end items like that for both prestige and profit, but not on more common items. It is impossible to negotiate BPs except for a few easily understandable situations, like a credit card vs. cash BP for all users at GC. You really don't want anyone to say your AH favors certain bidders over the other.
I am active online selling (store) and shows (taking table). Each has their own pluses and minuses. It’s like a balanced offense.
My online buying is eBay & GC. Before that Teletrade.
Yes. If the coins you want to buy offer no benefit from seeing in hand and building relationships with local/regional/national dealers has no value to you then there is little point to attending shows. Common coins with well-established prices are not those one needs to go to a show for.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying you're collecting the wrong way, just that a MS 65 1927 Saint is not likely to be stolen at a show where it might slip between the cracks on eBay. No dealer is going to sell one with an easily established value for vastly less because he doesn't understand what he has. Also, he has no need to discount it to you because there are dozens or hundreds of people at the show willing to pay whatever the real price is.
NLI
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/date-sets/hashtags-prefect-coin-grading-service-1879/album/7621
I buy gold. The coins are simply a proxy for gold (generics ..very small premiums).
I do have a few 1927 MS65's. I started the year with 6 sold 2 now still have 4. They were bought when premiums were very, very low. If I remember correctly, I swapped out of 20 64's and bought 20 65's. I do own some somewhat rarer coins such as an 1850, 1851-O, 1862-S, 1857-S (SS Central) as an example. They account for a very, very small number of coins I own versus generics.
They can just make it up in volume
the cost for an average collector to attend a show for 3-4 days is just too high. why waste money on travel expenses that can be used at an auction??
The overlap between the two is a lot more limited than many here seem to believe. Not only does no one need to buy any coin to satisfy their history interest, they certainly don't need to buy one with the attributes that makes hardly any coin expensive.
And when you sell it with a 20% seller's commission, you will need a $1020 bid to breakeven.
When you end up paying 34% above the hammer price at an auction, the item you are buying has to realize a hammer price that is 34% above what you paid. Heritage offers "a deal" where you can consign to them and get 100% of the hammer price. If you have a large consignment, you might get 105% of the hammer price. that sill leaves you having see a 29 to 30 percent increase in the hammer price just to break even.
If you are into it for only monetary reasons, buying and selling coins at auction is not an attractive situation.
If that was true, dealers wouldn't participate in auctions except to bid for clients.
THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING!
Judging by the attendance of my local shows, I think coin shows will be around for a long time.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website. Remember that the dealer has to factor the travel, lodging, and table costs into a breakeven/profit number.
This may be slightly different for the whale customers that a dealer needs to court, or if you have a long relationship with a specific dealer. In the two above situations your pricing at the show may be better than the average joe.
I do not fall into those two scenarios so for me traveling long distance to shows is not a good option. The only large show I have gone to is LB (in years past) because I can drive there in one day, I did enjoy the experience for a few reasons. First I was able to meet a couple of dealers that I had bought from before, it is nice to put a face to a name. Second I was able to drop off some coins to Ian at CG that I wanted to sell and could avoid the shipping risks. And third while I usually have little expectation of buying, being able to see such a vast number of coins and grade ranges in one location is educational.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
One needs an online retail store and show presence to move inventory for any chance of significant gain. While online auctions like eBay or GC are an acquisition source for me I view them as a liquidation sales option. YMMV. Auction buying I shop around get it at price that works for me, avoid bid war.
Considering the strong attendance at my local shows and table sellout at least from my vantage point shows will be around for a long time. Furthermore there are no online fees just the fixed costs of doing the show which allows me move big ticket material at a narrower spread vs online. Plus I can stack all the budget material under $100 I want in my cases. Stacks of inexpensive currency an example. Many times what I make off that pays my show expense.
Are Coin Shows Endangered??
if anything is endangered it is Coin Shops.
I've gone to many shows and just got back from Long Beach, and will continue to go to shows in the future, whether flying or going to a local show. And yes, we (my and my wife) do make vacations around coin shows. If you do have the means, it's a fantastic way to enjoy a few days on coins, sightseeing, visiting family, etc. Life's far too short to sit in a bunker counting your gold coins like Silas Marner.
Coin shows large and small are where you pick up and continue getting an education and paying some tuition. Nothing will ever beat looking at thousands of coins in hand and getting your eyes trained. While online photography and videos have gotten much better over the years, they are no substitute for seeing the coins in person - if possible. Seeing toned coins in hand also helps you see how much some online sellers juice or manipulate their images.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Shows will go away when people no longer have cash to spend. I'll wait right here, let me know when that happens.
The Coin World podcast did an interview with Larry Shepherd (the dealer turned CSNS convention manager) last month where he elaborated on the economics/logistics of putting on a large show. In short, the financial cost and liability are very high for the orgs that put them on, and there seems to be little margin for error.
I found it interesting, and while Shepherd doesn't speak to it directly, I think it affirms Laura's point that the larger shows may be most at risk if they become wholly separated from auctions.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/cwpod_ep127
The problem with auctions at large shows is it draws money away from bourse floor sales, eating into dealer profits. Many times one can find better deals off the bourse floor vs getting in a bid war at auction. While auctions supplement major shows I can’t see the demise of large shows like FUN and Long Beach. Do the show organizers make more money off auctions?
Bidding in an auction at a major currency show I was setup at I got some scarce nice NBN pickups but paid royally considering the bidding competition. But I got the prize I was looking for a nice attractive 1882 AU $10 scarce bank Brownback. The next day some deals came my way (or were at nearby tables) that made me wonder why attend the auction at all. I decided for future budget both bourse room and auction spending equally.
It's just super convenient to be able to do lot viewing at a major show. The flip side is it does eat into bourse time, especially for dealers.
Thank you for your input.
I buy when I believe I can upgrade a coin I own on a favorable price spread (which means I'm using the E-bay bay store to offer the lower grade) or when I believe I spot a "deal" i can't pass up. Otherwise I'm happy to play the hand I have. To paraphrase count Dracula, I have but a single lifetime to collect coins.
Thus when you say, "My experience is that coins sold at coin shows are often priced higher than they might be on the dealers website.". If true, then alas, I have no reason to attend any shows.
Re: whale customers... Are you referring to my weight?
The only long term relationship with a "dealer" I currently maintain is with my wife. The principal coin seller.
Everything you say in your post re dealer pricing makes sense to me. I begrudge no one. God gave me shoulders so i can shrug.
In the end, I'll possibly try the NJ show this winter since my navigation system seems to know where NJ is.
Speaking personally, you can get a better deal on the bourse than on a dealer website if you know the dealer. A dealer candidly told me he had to unload a coin that wasn't moving which it turned out I needed for my type set. I got it for 5% over dealer cost. This has happened more than once.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
At least it's not coin collecting!
I think it's unlikely that many dealers bring coins to a show that are on their websites, reprice them higher while there and then reduce the prices back to where they were when they get home.