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Holy Cow! Talk about a bull market!
Southside7
Posts: 79 ✭✭✭
This sold on Heritage on September 18, 2020
Now...(600% increase in 11 months)
This sold 2 days ago
Now (55% increase in two days)
Were bidders in these auctions just asleep at the helm for these absolutely spectacular errors?
Man, just once I would love to hit one of these jackpots!
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Aren’t those just ask prices vs confirmed sales?
Latin American Collection
Yes, you are correct.
But I suspect someone of the experience and reputation of Mr. Byers does not list coins as fishing expeditions. I "expect" he knows the market better than most (if not all) so I just wonder why not stronger bidding at Heritage?
Either way, as a fan of dramatic errors, both (or should I say all 4) are just spectacular.
Not sure why, but those do nothing for me.
Collector, occasional seller
He often lists aspirational prices. That's not the value until someone pays it. You can ask anything.
At times dealers like to own a certain coin or two and put go away prices on them. Not truly a fishing price but rather an I'll sell price but its going to cost you. I see this on ebay often, and it can sort of be a form of advertising too.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Sometimes that is exactly what people do and sometimes for the reasons noted above by coinbuf. Collectors and small dealers sometimes do the same.
Recently noticed this on a PCGS Coinfacts listing and recall some other strong fixed prices on errors that later auctioned for a fraction of the price.
"Pedigree and History
Dr. William Sturgis Bigelow (from Theodore Roosevelt?) after May 18, 1908 - The Boston Museum of Fine Arts, June 11, 1908 - Stack's “ANA Sale” 8/1976:3302, $10,000 - Jim Halperin/NERCG - Mid-American “GNA Sale” 5/1987:2115, $69,300 - Sotheby's 12/1997:268, $253,000 - Phillip H. Morse Collection - Heritage 11/2005:6557, $276,000 - offered by Mike Byers, Inc. at the 9/2012 Longe Beach Exposition for $1.5 million - Heritage 4/2015:5490, $329,000"
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1908-20-motto-roman/9204
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
that lincoln/balboa brockage is kinda melting my brain trying to figure it out since the lincoln side also has the reverse impression of the of the balboa.
Little value and importance to me.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Thanks for the comparison. It is neat to see the flag image behind Lincoln.
Are you freaking kidding me!? This is why non-collectors shake their head with a little bit of nausea.
welcome.
i slowed down and i see now that byers gives the explanation and i was pretty close. wild either way around it!
Most non-collectors don't understand collectors....
Lance - NGC decided to re-label them and now each says ‘Struck with 2 Obverse Dies’.
Obviously there are a few 2 Headed and 2 Tailed U.S. coins, but not involving 2 Obv or Rev dies with a MATED PAIR, making this unique.
Not a fan and, especially, not at those prices.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Yes but that penny might just cause a concussion for non-collectors while they’re shaking their head with utter disbelief. Good Lord we are an esoteric bunch.
Unfortunately your expectations would be misguided. The asking prices on many foreign medals and error/pattern/trial coins I have seen listed in his store are multiples of appropriate retail values and the descriptions often hype up aspects of the coins in ways that do not speak to accuracy.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I find error coins very interesting, though I do not collect them. (Other than a cent blank planchet I found in change years ago). I really enjoy looking at them, and of course, wondering how they ever left the mint. Cheers, RickO
No thanks, I can find a lot of coins selling at a fraction of the Heritage price that are a lot more interesting.
They are always nice to look at.
When I see these types of errors, I can only feel that they were fantasy pieces dreamt up and produced by a mint employee.
How these coins get to the outside world, I'll never know.
I could buy some very nice coins for what was paid for this one but to each his own.
Your money, spend it as you chose.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Heritage Auctions consistently gets strong prices for patterns, errors and die trials. Occasionally something falls thru the cracks, but overall Heritage gets most of the action, in my opinion.
This just sold last night in Heritage and it was a strong price ($9600.) It’s very dramatic as a flip-over double struck proof Kennedy Half:
Same with this one ($5,760.) last night in Heritage. A unique mis-aligned die on a proof SILVER Ike Dollar:
Can you provide a bit more context?
Everyone has their own collecting focus so there's naturally different interest levels in different areas from collectors, but haven't you indicated you think virtually all US coins are over priced (and thus not interesting?)?
To me, price and interesting are orthogonal. They don't affect each other. I can find interesting things that are expensive and inexpensive.
I've been following Mike's inventory and Heritage for a while.
At first, I thought the way that some of the people posting do, that Mike's prices are above market, but what I've noticed is that he moves inventory. I now think Mike buys undervalued pieces and sells them at correct prices for the discerning or advanced buyer.
Unique pieces are really hard to value because the value is not what the average buyer will pay for the unique item, it's what the determined and focused buyer will pay for the item. These collectors don't grow on trees and may not be bidding on any given auction so you need to connect with them. Mike also does a lot of research which is published in Mint Error News which helps provide the history of the pieces he sells. This adds value as well.
For example, I had a classic sports car a while back. I sold it on consignment. The consignment shop which has hundreds of collectible cars on their showroom told me I should lower the price. I declined as my thought was that there's someone out there who loves the car just much as I do and will pay my price. The car sold at my price. Which is the correct price, the lower price suggested by the dealer, or the higher price for which it actually sold?
If anything, the result of my following Mike's sales and auction sales is that I can better spot undervalued items at auction. And isn't part of being a good dealer, the ability to find value?
Generally true, but in Mike's case, he does sell inventory. It doesn't just sit there. Just look at his website. Lots of items say SOLD.
What a fortunate coincidence that the orientation of the Balboa was lined up with the Lincoln
Collector, occasional seller
It is quite eye appealing.
And the only known U.S. two headed or two tailed mated pair!
Just because someone had access to Mint equipment doesn't make this Balboa pair a genuine "error"; that's the most disingenuous description you could give it, as it implies a lack of intent in its creation. Someone deliberately paired these two together in the off-hours of production to turn a profit.
For better or worse, I don't think it's disingenuous to call it a "Mint Error" as that is the definition used by the hobby and PCGS.
I used to ask lots of questions about this but the reality is:
Do you think PCGS is disingenuous?
As much as people take issue with these hobby terms, I think the hobby needs to change before these issues are pinned on any one person.
If you read Mike's description for this, it seems very straight forward and matter of fact to me. There's no claim that this happened accidentally. I enjoyed learned how special this pair really is as two Lincoln S dies are in the press together to strike this.
https://mikebyers.com/5848017-001-5848017-002.html
NGC and PCGS designate these as mint errors. Some mint errors are intentionally produced. Maybe they should differentiate Mint Error and Intentional Mint Error. NGC has authenticated a few deliberate mint errors but left Mint Error off the insert.
Here is a unique Proof Ike Dollar overstruck offcenter on a Peace Dollar. It’s been certified and authenticated by NGC. Notice it does not say Mint Error.
Since PCGS and NGC are calling these Mint Errors, perhaps the issue should be raised with them? Would leaving Mint Error off help with the concerns here?
Perhaps @FredWeinberg can chime in?
@ChopmarkedTrades if you are really concerned, perhaps you can contact Stephanie Sabin at PCGS or Rick Montgomery at NGC?
Exactly Zions!
Dealers and collectors can ask PCGS and NGC why the inserts do not designate a deliberate mint error?
And also ask Stack’s-Bowers and Heritage why aren’t deliberately made mint errors described as such in their listings?
Fred Weinberg sells intentional mint errors certified by PCGS and in his listings he doesn’t say it’s intentional.
So does Jon Sullivan.
So do I.
It’s just the way the hobby works right now.
The only folks that care to distinguish between Intentional Mint “Errors” and true Mint Errors, are those that don’t actually collect them. I would bet that the majority of error collectors acknowledge that many errors were purposefully created and escaped the Mints, and are insouciant to the matter or simply decide not to purchase them when offered.
GoldenEgg - that is so true and your post is spot on!
None of my customers have any issues, and I doubt that Fred’s or Jon’s or Andy Lustig or other dealers who handle mint errors do either!
My favorite error and I am interested in why it happened and how it happened but not by a long shot does a proper label need to be affixed or proper wording. It’s pretty obvious it’s not exactly how the mint wanted it 🤓
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
It looks like a candidate for an intentionally made error to me. Others may disagree. Even if it isn't ,doesn't change my opinion of it.
It would be great to see more coins that you do like.
I like a lot of US coins, just less than those who buy it and definitely not at the price it takers to buy most. I probably like some of the same US coins you do. The ones I like most usually aren't discussed on this forum, like colonials and territorial gold. Second, some of the early federal.
Have you thought about starting some discussions on the coins you do like?
Here's one of mine on Mormon Gold
Mormon Gold: The Deseret Mint and its Mint Master John Moburn Kay
Zions- very cool!
I didn't say he didn't. I also don't know (do you?) that his sales are at the listed price?
[Not that I have any issue with Mr. Byers or his business. ]
I personally have no interest in deliberately manufactured “errors.” You may collect whatever you wish.
jmlanzaf- some sell at list, many sell for less. But they all say SOLD. Once the coin has a new home, out of respect, it’s up to the new buyer to disclose at his discretion, the sales price or not. 😉
That’s good to know. Less competition
The reality is that many collectors have different likes so that is normal. For example, I collect Thomas Elder medals and I know you like them. I even have some potentially unique pieces. At the same time, I know many people with no interest in them whatsoever.
As I said, I have no problem with any of that.