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Can any of you see the difference between a graded 69 and 70 in a silver or gold eagle?
Herb_T
Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am new at this, but I sure can’t tell any difference between a 69 and 70. Looking at a silver eagle proof or a gold eagle mint state. Is it easier to tell the difference in mint state coins as opposed to proofs? Can some of you help me in this area?
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If I see anything, it will be a pit about the size of a pinhead in the fields of the Proof surfaces.
The reason you cannot is because the difference isn't meaningful from a collectible standpoint, only financially. It's called marketing.
I find it easy to tell the difference. I just look at the price tag.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
It's usually right there on the label
Steve
....or the slab label.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It's easy to see the difference. Just look at the holder and see if it has a 69 or 70 on the label 😂 😇
It's hard to explain if you don't spend much time in that sandbox (I don't play there much either). The best way to learn the differences is to look at a lot of 69 and 70 coins to develop a feel for it.
That helps, gives me an idea of where and what to look for….thank you!
Price. I have some 70’s that are down right dogs compared to some 69’s I own that I would never trade up. Thing is there is a difference just how obvious is it. Eye appeal 🤓
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There's an old marketing slogan that says that "If you can't tell the difference why pay the difference?"
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Sometimes, but it's never something that is worth the price difference to me.
Something else to consider is that I don't think our host used to accept 70s as crossovers, because a grade of 70 couldn't be verified while the coin was still in the holder. I like calling this the "70 paradox" -- a coin isn't a 70 until the holder preventing you from verifying it is or enjoying it as such says so.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Welcome to the Forum. I'm a 40+ years dealer with much grading experience.
If you're a old or new collector, any PR69 is an exquisite example. PR70 is for bragging rights ummm, premium pricing for pride of ownership,
Your instincts are correct about grade differentiation at this level.
A widely-held Forum axiom: buy the coin, not the holder.
I can generally find an imperfection or two which limits the grade to a 69. Perfection shouldn’t have any.
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The one difference is there is no difference once a silver eagle spots. Whether it is a 69 or 70 it will still trade near spot.
As far as the gold eagles, 69 or 70, if I can get one slabbed at the same price, especially by PCGS, that is the one that I will buy. I personally will not pay the extra premium for a 70.
I have several modern commemorative gold coins slabbed in MS69 and PF69 that I bought as bullion near melt value and I sure can't find any flaws on them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I have several regular customers who ask me to pre-screen their coins and weed out any that I don't think don't have a shot at 70. They're regular customers because I have a decent track record. On the siver eagles, if spot-free, I go right to the sun on the obverse and the top of the shield on the type 1 reverse. Any hint of a mark in these areas precludes a 70, and even a 69 in some cases. If those are clear, I look for what I call 'pinpricks'- little pits causing luster breaks on both sides of the coin. If even one is present, the coin will probably not make 70. Lastly, I look at the rim, as an imperfection there will also preclude a 70. If the coin passes all of those tests, I recommend it for submission (with no guarantee of a 70, of course
)
Nope
Remember, grades are an opinion... and yes, there should be 'something' that differentiates between a 69 and 70. What it may be, is the opinion of the graders. Cheers, RickO
The difference between properly graded 69s and properly graded 70s are like night and day. PCGS should also consider adding the 69+ grade to the mix. I believe there would be strong demand for this new grade level on many of the most important modern coins.
Wondercoin
Never have.
Sometimes.
Very helpful…..I appreciate you taking the time to help give me some pointers and where to look…..
Are these areas that you can see with your bare eye or only with a loupe?
The pesky white spot! I have passed on a number of silver eagles that have those…..in the back of my mind it does worry me about some of the more expensive silver coins I have purchased. If anyone has a milk spot coin, and wants to sell it cheaply, I will buy it. I want to do some testing on it…..to see what that spot is and how to get rid of them…..
only when there is an obvious "tick" (defect) on the surface. Otherwise it's a crapshoot with the graders.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
There is also extensive information about milk spots available on this forum 🤓. You will not be lonely as there are many like you in search of the cure
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Dont know about gold but some of the Silver Eagles in 70 have that swirl of luster in the fields compared to the 69's that just have a normal straight luster. You can kinda see what I mean off to the left in this picture.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
But people want to know what this night and day difference is. That is what the OP is asking. What should he look for in a 70 that's missing or short in a 69?
Also in your opinion Mitch how many 70s should one expect to get from a new set of dies? 100? Several hundred?
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Exactly…..what are the differences?
Short of taking the coin out of the holder, can these differences be spotted through the plastic holder?
Given the yield of 70s, it is quite a large number.
Sometimes. An obvious small spot or a tick in a highly visible area will usually do it. Other times, it is harder. Your asking for the impossible. Each coin is different. There is no single thing to look for. You are looking for noticeable defects serious enough to preclude a 70.
Sometimes a little graze of the frost
Is that with an electron microscope or the new neutron model?
I have a hard time believing there are enough suckers born to maintain those premiums for long. That's likely why I'm not as rich as I oughta be
It would be scientifically possible, with modern day optics much less precise than those used for many machine parts, to likely grade ASEs and AGE's to within a ten thousandth of a point in accuracy. nothing near the accuracy Jet engines require.
Good luck with your pricing structure.
Oh my gosh my reverse proofs the horrific things I can tell you about 🙀
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It's easy enough to see the difference between the best and the not quite best. I don't always agree with where the line is drawn but it's always there.
My experience with eagles is limited but I have a lot more experience in other moderns.
Look at the Palladium Eagles, for instance. The 2017’s and after can have significant hits on the rim and still get a 70. I know, I sent one back for a replacement. At that time, I purchased the 70 because it was nearly the same price as raw. And I prefer them for viewing to be in a PCGS holder.
The gold Mercury dimes, what a crapshoot of quality in the 70s.
Even 70s aren’t always 70s. I had a Sacagawea in a 70 holder with an obvious rim ding.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I'm thinking the graders are like - "Oh Jesus - these again? Here's a 70 now just get rid of them so they don't come back for a regrade!"
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
My recommendation would be if you’re looking at a 70 with a significant premium make sure you compare to other 70s for eye appeal and lack of distractions. That can be difficult through the mail unless there is a solid return policy. It might not matter until you go to sale and someone else notices the imperfections.
I have been fortunate. I find those that are most promoting the differences between high grades have different grading standards than I do.
“Is that with an electron microscope or the new neutron model?”
Colonel- you are overthinking the simplistic.
For a customer, I just recently upgraded a handful of 64RD coins into 65RD coins adding great value to his collection. I didn’t need either an electron microscope or the new neutron model, but that task was equally as difficult, if not more difficult, than knowing how a similar pile of a handful of coins will fare under the 69/70 line.
Does no one know how to grade 64RD vs 65RD? After all, these were 64RD in June (and for years before that) and 65RD in July (again adding HUGE % increases to the value of these coins). Should we start a new thread on pondering if anyone really knows how to grade 64RD, 64+RD and 65RD coins? We can do one on 66RB vs 66RD as well and possibility the most lucrative grade of all - the 67 vs 67+ vs 68 line! Folks can literally retire simply fully understanding just the 67 vs 68 line- yes?
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin that respectfully sounds like gooble de goop . Nice words but no sustenance. Just my opinion 🤓
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
JJ- Please Stick around for 16,000 more posts and then get back to me- good?
Wondercoin
“Also in your opinion Mitch how many 70s should one expect to get from a new set of dies? 100? Several hundred?”
Bajjerfan- The issue here is whether anyone can tell the difference between the 69 and 70 grade on gold or silver eagles. I addressed that. Your specific question is for an expert at the US Mint. And, of course, I defer to their expertise on that subject.
Wondercoin
🤔
My only experience in this area is that I got the low mintage 1991 half ounce gold eagle back when it came out, put it in a Capital holder and stored it away for years. Back then, I wasn't aware of such MS69 - 70 grading distinctions, it was just gold bullion to me. A couple years ago, I took it out and looked at it for the first time in eons and said, hey, not bad. So I submitted it to a non-PCGS grading service, and it came back MS69. I took a magnifier and looked it over carefully to see what minor flaw made it a MS69. I couldn't see any dings or marks at all. It took a long time to find, but when I angled the coin under a bright light, in one area I saw a very slight small surface scuff, and I'm guessing that's what kept it from an MS70.
I can’t imagine that the characteristic you mentioned would make any difference between the two grades being discussed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@wondercoin - you discussed it, but didn't prove the unprovable.
We are not discussing the difference between 64RD and 65 RD. That has absolutely no worth whatsoever in this thread. Total deflection. Utilizing that device weakens your argument based on an attempt to distract with a speciously-chosen example. Random spaghetti sticking to a wall doth not an argument make.
The OP's issue is the 69/70 line.
Feel free to theorize. Give use your lighting scheme, your magnification tools, and try not to test my intelligence by telling me that the PR70 is that precise. Define, with technical rigor, what your standard is for that grade. Whatever it is, technology can exceed it in accuracy.
What you've said so far is free of content other than an implication that you have a grading method and an eye superior to a TPG and will charge to use it. That's the same old same old sales pitch. No doubt you've got a great eye and a superior process. You likely put out a product superior to many.
Want to be the ultimate market-making arbiter? Use you own 69+ sticker.
You've got 10,000 posts more than me. I've bought and sold likely $100 million dollars more in numismatic coins that you.
This is not about how high someone can piss up a wall. The wall always ends up the winner. ANY piece of properly programmed and attuned equipment can analyze and rate industrial grade production quality to a finer tolerance than you, me, Justin, @Jzyskowski1, JA or any grading service.
Grape, lime or cherry Kool-Aid?
I guess it's like the comparison to pron. I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it.
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Can you or anyone else tell when LDS issues start to creep in?
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“We are not discussing the difference between 64RD and 65 RD. That has absolutely no worth whatsoever in this thread. Total deflection.
The OP's issue is the 69/70 line.”
Colonel: with all due respect - no deflection at all. My point is 69/70 line is no different than 64/65 line. Or 67/68 line. That is my simple point of including that narrative in my discussion. I think it has great worth to the discussion. I think many newbies need to understand it is just as easy for some to differentiate properly graded 69 and 70 coins than it is for others to easily differentiate properly graded 64 and 65 coins. I am not “implying” anything here nor selling anything. Nor do I want to be a market-maker of anything. I could not be any clearer. I have answered the OP’s question with a resounding “yes”. I can easily see the difference between properly graded 69s and 70s.
And, many other collectors and dealers can too. I am not bragging here. My 31 year old daughter is a “pro” at the 69/70 line as is my 29 year old son. They were determining the 70 grade gold bullion (eagles or Buffalos) for submission purposes since the age of 14 with great success. Now, (15) years later, they have mastered the line.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
OP, I look for any imperfections, mostly frost breaks, rim dents.
I sent in 18 gold baseball coins that I thought would grade 70....got 16 out of 18.
