@jmlanzaf said: "Sure looks like a plastic shard, look at the shadowing."
I understand how photos can make things appear different and I appreciate your opinion.
I agree with you & wondercoin that it appears very much like a piece of plastic in the photos.
I had the coin in hand and know how to tell the difference between something on the coin or holder and the difference between a strike-thru and PMD. It wasn't something I had a question about, I am 100% sure. Please note how many times I have ever said I am 100% sure about anything.
100% PMD
I wish I still had the coin to take additional photos but it's gone.
@wondercoin said:
“We are not discussing the difference between 64RD and 65 RD. That has absolutely no worth whatsoever in this thread. Total deflection.
The OP's issue is the 69/70 line.”
Colonel: with all due respect - no deflection at all. My point is 69/70 line is no different than 64/65 line. Or 67/68 line.
Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't.
In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.
PCGS is quite clear that a 70 grade does not mean flawless or perfection.
PCGS wrote:
Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks. The PCGS 70 grading standard does allow for “as minted” defects, as long as those flaws are minor and do not impact the eye appeal of the coin.
Here's a PCGS PR70 DCAM which has nice fields and devices. It does have a rim flaw but this may not impact the eye appeal of the coin.
@jmlanzaf said: "Sure looks like a plastic shard, look at the shadowing."
I understand how photos can make things appear different and I appreciate your opinion.
I agree with you & wondercoin that it appears very much like a piece of plastic in the photos.
I had the coin in hand and know how to tell the difference between something on the coin or holder and the difference between a strike-thru and PMD. It wasn't something I had a question about, I am 100% sure. Please note how many times I have ever said I am 100% sure about anything.
100% PMD
I wish I still had the coin to take additional photos but it's gone.
Yes, I would never make a definitive determination of anything from a photo. I mean, I've seen photos of Bigfoot.
No difference between MS 69 and 70. Dealer after dealer has told me this. It's folly to think there is a difference between 69 and 70. Except for price, of course.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
@wondercoin said:
Colonel: You don’t think this was a bit rough directed at someone who has sold for the past 3 or 4 years minimum perhaps 85% or 90%+ of coins dated before silver eagles, gold eagles and other bullion coins ever existed (pre-1986)?
“The TPG perversion of the English language offers that, and your cosigning that allows you to benefit from the ignorance of others to a degree unmatched in numismatic history. There is no way you can ever deliver. "Among the finest that will ever be attainable" doesn't sell as well as "perfect". This is beyond semantics, You are deliberately misusing a numismatic term of art to create an impression of pseudo-infallibility.”
I am not a defender in any way, shape or form of the AGE and ASE programs. We likely have more in common than we have not in common. For the love of G-d, I just simply said I could tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin! Then, I got punched silly!
Wondercoin
"I am not a defender in any way shape or form of the ASE and AGE programs".
While you are apparently not a buyer or seller, as a producer you are an active participant, I find it a sophistry to say you are not a defender of those programs.
If what I've said is punching you silly, it's Tomato-Can City for you!
And I had a lawyer friend read the thread and the quasi-pseudo threat. He said you should re-read the statutes on slander as he finds nothing I said closely resembling it., You've got a law degree? You want to tell me about potential slander? Post what I said that's actionable..
YMMV - see you in court (if they don't reject your filing as frivolous) ... Bulk up. You can be the new bully in town.
Or flag me, There's another forum already waiting. If I'm not here tomorrow, there's a few here that will award you a special badge. In this day and age, being cancelled is an honor. Bald and bleeding as I might be, you will have earned my scalp.
More than simply incidentally, I was surely wrong in my interpretation of MS70.
I'll stick to grading coins that have some value when not in their holders. I'm going to stick with coins 68+ and less. I will certainly avoid all the major rarities of the Modern series. I have a friend who delivers Moderns by the boatload. The streets of Beverly Hills are paved with gold. Mr. Big's going to have me sticker the 69's I think are 69+. He told me I don't need to be a numismatic slut in order to be a market whore.
Just my dollar's worth of sense.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@mr1874 said:
No difference between MS 69 and 70. Dealer after dealer has told me this. It's folly to think there is a difference between 69 and 70. Except for price, of course.
@al410 said:
Never forget that grading system is set up for the PROFIT factor for the grading companies not collector enhancement. If not why have regrade submissions from same company that just graded your coin. If it was miss graded the first time and they upgrade on resubmission do you get a refund for the first grade? basically As far as authenticity and details it is a big help to collectors but grading Uncirculated coins is about money. I don't mean to say that dealers don't make money from these grades because they do but some people collect for the coin itself and others collect for monetary reasons and nothing wrong with that.
Just my opinion
The grading companies are providing a service. This service is driven by demand. Obviously, much of this demand is manifested by dealers.
Collectors and dealers who offer the same amount of money for ms-69 and MS-70 are probably not buying any coins at all so their offers are meaningless. I can offer melt +3% for as many 1804 dollars as anyone can supply but I'll get none.
@mr1874 said:
No difference between MS 69 and 70. Dealer after dealer has told me this. It's folly to think there is a difference between 69 and 70. Except for price, of course.
There is a difference. Bullsitter's results alone show that quite clearly. Is the difference worth it? Depends on the collector. For me, if I can't see a tick mark unmagnified, I'm not worried about it. But not everyone collects the same way.
@mr1874 said:
No difference between MS 69 and 70. Dealer after dealer has told me this. It's folly to think there is a difference between 69 and 70. Except for price, of course.
It's folly to think that there isn't a difference in a great many (though not all) cases.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“And I had a lawyer friend reads the thread and the quasi-pseudo threat”
Colonel: Do you really have nothing better to do in your life right now than continue to make these silly statements about what I am doing? I am now a “producer/defender” for these programs! 😆
“He told me I don't need to be a numismatic slut in order to be a market whore.” 😳
Get a grip Colonel!
Wondercoin
Edited to add- I do have better things to do in my life right now. I will not respond again to anything more you have to say that includes my handle in your postings. So, have at it.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Wonderful: Can I sue for for misquoting me. I never said you were a defender of the program. I don't have to.
Res ipsa loquitur "The thing speaks for itself"
And here's a another grip for you to grip, Mr. Supreme Court Justice Wepner.
Dealer or collector:
If I insist on something juicy to make me lust a bit too much for a coin, I'm a numismatic slut.
If I can make a buck on it, I'm a market whore.
Forgetting my contempt for other Moderns, let's just stick with ASEs and AGEs.
They fail to excite my optic nerve by showing up simply shiny.
They fail to satisfy my numismatic appetite for variety, whether it be strike, lustre, color, texture, fabric.....
They fail to satisfy my need for historical connection or a personal meaning for an owner.
They do not stir my soul.
My slut is not stirred either. Buy, sell or valorize. I am nothing but a market whore.
While I can be both on behalf of some pieces, that means, like any businessman with a sense of humor, that I'm comfortable offering a service providing a product for which I have developed expertise but can't recommend with passion. Widgets.
A shame Mitch won't be reading this, but as is often the case, it's not for my assumed addressee's eyes. I'm making a case to others.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Forgetting my contempt for other Moderns, let's just stick with ASEs and AGEs.
They fail to excite my optic nerve by showing up simply shiny.
They fail to satisfy my numismatic appetite for variety, whether it be strike, lustre, color, texture, fabric.....
They fail to satisfy my need for historical connection or a personal meaning for an owner.
They do not stir my soul.
I never occurred to me before that you might not be able to handle the truth.
I may be even more indifferent to AGE's and ASE's than you since I don't care and never did. I equally don't care that they are graded or that there is a demand for graded coins. Unlike Wondercoin I've never submitted, bought, or sold a graded coins and only fewer than a handful of raw coins because they are very rarely traded "cheap".
Indeed, my only "non"indifference is that I wish I had bought them for $5 each instead of whatever was cheap. Now days they carry a $20 premium.
Be that as it may though there is nothing more special than a modern clad that is well struck from good dies or a nickel with six razor sharp steps and not a nick anywhere. Some old classic might be impossible to find made by nice dies and well struck but there can be millions of a modern that all look exactly alike; just like garbage. Finding zincolns with nice surfaces or better dates that were never saved by coin collectors is very exciting to me. Having the whole field to myself for years was a lot of fun. I was the first one in the coin show because I was so eager, not because there was so much competition.
I think it's great moderns aren't for everybody and all moderns might not be for anybody but this hobby will never have too many people in it. The services will never grade too many coins and there will be collectors for everything given sufficient time.
I'll be collecting bust half dollars long before I'm looking for upgrades on MS-69 eagles silver or gold.
You're right, to each his own. But there's no way to rank each collector's decisions and even price is irrelevant to any possible ranking system.
Comments
But yet I only see this anomaly on 70's - not 69's. That's why I said this, not to be knocked down
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I understand how photos can make things appear different and I appreciate your opinion.
I agree with you & wondercoin that it appears very much like a piece of plastic in the photos.
I had the coin in hand and know how to tell the difference between something on the coin or holder and the difference between a strike-thru and PMD. It wasn't something I had a question about, I am 100% sure. Please note how many times I have ever said I am 100% sure about anything.
100% PMD
I wish I still had the coin to take additional photos but it's gone.
PCGS is quite clear that a 70 grade does not mean flawless or perfection.
This is the PCGS definition: https://www.pcgs.com/grades#grade70
Here's a PCGS PR70 DCAM which has nice fields and devices. It does have a rim flaw but this may not impact the eye appeal of the coin.
Yes, I would never make a definitive determination of anything from a photo. I mean, I've seen photos of Bigfoot.
No difference between MS 69 and 70. Dealer after dealer has told me this. It's folly to think there is a difference between 69 and 70. Except for price, of course.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
"I am not a defender in any way shape or form of the ASE and AGE programs".
While you are apparently not a buyer or seller, as a producer you are an active participant, I find it a sophistry to say you are not a defender of those programs.
If what I've said is punching you silly, it's Tomato-Can City for you!
And I had a lawyer friend read the thread and the quasi-pseudo threat. He said you should re-read the statutes on slander as he finds nothing I said closely resembling it., You've got a law degree? You want to tell me about potential slander? Post what I said that's actionable..
YMMV - see you in court (if they don't reject your filing as frivolous) ... Bulk up. You can be the new bully in town.
Or flag me, There's another forum already waiting. If I'm not here tomorrow, there's a few here that will award you a special badge. In this day and age, being cancelled is an honor. Bald and bleeding as I might be, you will have earned my scalp.
More than simply incidentally, I was surely wrong in my interpretation of MS70.
I'll stick to grading coins that have some value when not in their holders. I'm going to stick with coins 68+ and less. I will certainly avoid all the major rarities of the Modern series. I have a friend who delivers Moderns by the boatload. The streets of Beverly Hills are paved with gold. Mr. Big's going to have me sticker the 69's I think are 69+. He told me I don't need to be a numismatic slut in order to be a market whore.
Just my dollar's worth of sense.
How is this even possible?
The grading companies are providing a service. This service is driven by demand. Obviously, much of this demand is manifested by dealers.
Collectors and dealers who offer the same amount of money for ms-69 and MS-70 are probably not buying any coins at all so their offers are meaningless. I can offer melt +3% for as many 1804 dollars as anyone can supply but I'll get none.
There is a difference. Bullsitter's results alone show that quite clearly. Is the difference worth it? Depends on the collector. For me, if I can't see a tick mark unmagnified, I'm not worried about it. But not everyone collects the same way.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
It's folly to think that there isn't a difference in a great many (though not all) cases.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“And I had a lawyer friend reads the thread and the quasi-pseudo threat”
Colonel: Do you really have nothing better to do in your life right now than continue to make these silly statements about what I am doing? I am now a “producer/defender” for these programs! 😆
“He told me I don't need to be a numismatic slut in order to be a market whore.” 😳
Get a grip Colonel!
Wondercoin
Edited to add- I do have better things to do in my life right now. I will not respond again to anything more you have to say that includes my handle in your postings. So, have at it.
I lied about the lawyer
@Wonderful: Can I sue for for misquoting me. I never said you were a defender of the program. I don't have to.
Res ipsa loquitur "The thing speaks for itself"
And here's a another grip for you to grip, Mr. Supreme Court Justice Wepner.
Dealer or collector:
If I insist on something juicy to make me lust a bit too much for a coin, I'm a numismatic slut.
If I can make a buck on it, I'm a market whore.
Forgetting my contempt for other Moderns, let's just stick with ASEs and AGEs.
They fail to excite my optic nerve by showing up simply shiny.
They fail to satisfy my numismatic appetite for variety, whether it be strike, lustre, color, texture, fabric.....
They fail to satisfy my need for historical connection or a personal meaning for an owner.
They do not stir my soul.
My slut is not stirred either. Buy, sell or valorize. I am nothing but a market whore.
While I can be both on behalf of some pieces, that means, like any businessman with a sense of humor, that I'm comfortable offering a service providing a product for which I have developed expertise but can't recommend with passion. Widgets.
A shame Mitch won't be reading this, but as is often the case, it's not for my assumed addressee's eyes. I'm making a case to others.
.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I never occurred to me before that you might not be able to handle the truth.
I may be even more indifferent to AGE's and ASE's than you since I don't care and never did. I equally don't care that they are graded or that there is a demand for graded coins. Unlike Wondercoin I've never submitted, bought, or sold a graded coins and only fewer than a handful of raw coins because they are very rarely traded "cheap".
Indeed, my only "non"indifference is that I wish I had bought them for $5 each instead of whatever was cheap. Now days they carry a $20 premium.
Be that as it may though there is nothing more special than a modern clad that is well struck from good dies or a nickel with six razor sharp steps and not a nick anywhere. Some old classic might be impossible to find made by nice dies and well struck but there can be millions of a modern that all look exactly alike; just like garbage. Finding zincolns with nice surfaces or better dates that were never saved by coin collectors is very exciting to me. Having the whole field to myself for years was a lot of fun. I was the first one in the coin show because I was so eager, not because there was so much competition.
I think it's great moderns aren't for everybody and all moderns might not be for anybody but this hobby will never have too many people in it. The services will never grade too many coins and there will be collectors for everything given sufficient time.
I'll be collecting bust half dollars long before I'm looking for upgrades on MS-69 eagles silver or gold.
You're right, to each his own. But there's no way to rank each collector's decisions and even price is irrelevant to any possible ranking system.