@wondercoin said:
“We are not discussing the difference between 64RD and 65 RD. That has absolutely no worth whatsoever in this thread. Total deflection.
The OP's issue is the 69/70 line.”
Colonel: with all due respect - no deflection at all. My point is 69/70 line is no different than 64/65 line.
You have answered the literal question. You can do it.
If you want to argue that the 69/70 line is no different than the 64/65 line, I'll just dismiss of what you have to say as contaminated by an argument regarded as specious by anyone with who grades anything else other than Moderns. And anyone with the smallest amount of scientific bent who might analyze arguments for a technical grade approaching 70.
Let me rephrase my remark on the "lack of difference" in assessing 64/65 line vs. the 69/70 line. "What a patently ridiculous thing to say". Try this on for logic. "70 is a line. Everything else measured by it is not being truly measured, just assigned a "zone". I'm not attacking you or your works skills. It's the Modern zeitgeist.
70 at 5X and have a nice day
You kids are clearly great at what they do. If your daughter gets to a 51% rate (which I'm imagining is awesome) on 70's, let us know and I'll let you know what else you're missing. For all I know 30% generates enough profits. Your 70 isn't my 70. My 70 is impossible to attain. Your 70 grade can be denoted as "close enough for government work" but represents as "PERFECT". And "perfect" is just poetry. Just poetry.
We live and work on different planets. I'm performing an art and you believe you're approximating a science. I do poetry, and when you do WAQs I enjoy it. A Compugrade-driven process could blow NGC, PCGS and you out of the water after the 2nd tune-up for the AGE and ASE domains by date.
Anyone can grade anything whatever they want; the "market" sorts it all out. If there is no two-way market, If not. many would dispute on whether it is a market, or simply a marketing ploy. Moderns have legs, but grading and enjoying them seems as soulless as paving a road.
So i'll raise your MS70 two cents with my XF 1804 dollar and return to a planet where grading is more nuanced than "YES", "NO" and "MELT".
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
Define, with technical rigor, what your standard is for that grade. Whatever it is, technology can exceed it in accuracy.
The problem here is chiefly one of semantics.
Why anyone would want to define MS-70 as "perfection" is beyond me since the term might not be applicable to the condition of a coin. But like a beautiful woman there are those who who might argue over the relative "perfection" of individual 10's. There is no single definition for what makes a "perfect" women and in most instances there will be some disagreement.
But coins aren't the same thing and fewer criteria separate them by condition. Suffice to say a "70" is a coin that is a "10" on each characteristic. Surfaces, cleanliness, strike, and dies as well as the derivative characteristics and even "eye appeal" all separate a "69" from a "70".
I certainly agree that no coin is truly "perfect" though the few that are close enough in every way are graded MS-70.
“You have answered the literal question. You can do it.
“We live and work on different planets. I'm performing an art and you believe you're approximating a science. “
Yes, and yes!
I agree with you that the 69/70 line is more of a “science” than any other grade point comparisons, while the grades 68 and under are optimally achieved through the “science” of submission and that submitting science is often far more important than your pure grading “art”.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
On the admittedly few occasions when I've screened and submitted moderns for 70's, I've had pretty good luck predicting what will work. So yes, I think I can see the difference and I respect the grading concept. That said, I have zero interest in collecting the things.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@cmerlo1 said:
I have several regular customers who ask me to pre-screen their coins and weed out any that I don't think don't have a shot at 70. They're regular customers because I have a decent track record. On the siver eagles, if spot-free, I go right to the sun on the obverse and the top of the shield on the type 1 reverse. Any hint of a mark in these areas precludes a 70, and even a 69 in some cases. If those are clear, I look for what I call 'pinpricks'- little pits causing luster breaks on both sides of the coin. If even one is present, the coin will probably not make 70. Lastly, I look at the rim, as an imperfection there will also preclude a 70. If the coin passes all of those tests, I recommend it for submission (with no guarantee of a 70, of course )
Very helpful…..I appreciate you taking the time to help give me some pointers and where to look…..
Are these areas that you can see with your bare eye or only with a loupe?
I use a 6x loupe.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@wondercoin said:
“We are not discussing the difference between 64RD and 65 RD. That has absolutely no worth whatsoever in this thread. Total deflection.
The OP's issue is the 69/70 line.”
Colonel: with all due respect - no deflection at all. My point is 69/70 line is no different than 64/65 line. Or 67/68 line.
Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't.
In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Never forget that grading system is set up for the PROFIT factor for the grading companies not collector enhancement. If not why have regrade submissions from same company that just graded your coin. If it was miss graded the first time and they upgrade on resubmission do you get a refund for the first grade? basically As far as authenticity and details it is a big help to collectors but grading Uncirculated coins is about money. I don't mean to say that dealers don't make money from these grades because they do but some people collect for the coin itself and others collect for monetary reasons and nothing wrong with that.
Just my opinion
Al
This is well trod ground. I generally can find flaws in the "mass graded" 70s, and I won't expound on the issues related to such. On an individual basis there are subtleties that are sometimes missed, sometimes not by TPGs, or likely us for that matter. The 69/70 issue may not be of substantial difference other than for ego or monetary yield to many, or in fact all that rational IMO.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
“Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't. In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.”
Andy: Think about what you have said…
There is essentially no clear line between Any of the grades because it is more an art than a science. For which, I agree with you. And, hence, my comment about the science of submission being as important to anyone here attempting to master the pure “art” skill of knowing what a 64 should look like, a 65, a 66, a 67 or even a 68 and turning that knowledge into positive submission results. Since, there is no clear line between Any of the grade points, this should obviously be of great concern (or perhaps of no concern) to most numismatists separate and apart from whether the same is true with 69 vs. 70 modern coins.
As for the line between 69 and 70- You said when you pursue 70 grades from the services, you have had “pretty good luck predicting what will work”. Well, if there is a “clear line” between a 69 and 70, as you just stated, then one has to wonder why your “luck” is only “pretty good”. Someone like you, at the top of your numismatic game, shouldn’t have “pretty good luck” submitting coins with a “clear line” between grade points. First, it shouldn’t be a question of “luck” at all. And, second, your results should be far better than “pretty good”.
So, we can only conclude from your very own comments that there really isn’t a “clear line” between Any of the grades including the 69/70 line. But, as I have said repeatedly, I can tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin. The same as I can tell the difference between a properly graded 64 and 65 in a series I am very familiar with.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I think some 69s that look better over time should upgrade. Some 70's over time, should be downgraded. Eye appeal barred, for now. Subjectivity, not so much.
To op: I would suggest you review ANA grading standards, get a copy of the book.
Generally it is a minute imperfection and examination with a glass will make it easier to see. Some not that hard to spot. As far as pricing 70 coins pop can be a factor.
Many graded silver bullion coins I might bid 10-15$ over melt for a 69. They are strong sellers at shows cost plus say 10 pct or simply $5. I might bid a few bucks more for a 70. Other than that knowing a high MV 70 can be a hard sell no interest.
Just take a look at CPG for the issue OGP, 69, and 70 to get a feel for how the issue is priced.
I generally am not a submitter of mods as once you take the Pcgs invoice total cost plus your outgoing shipping and take this total allocating to inventory cost of each the bump up may be substantial. More cost then has to be recovered in the markup equation.
69/70 has, we won't say less factors, but more givens and less variables to consider than 64/65, so it makes sense that people think of it as a more quantitative exercise. Let's say it this way, I would be much more confident constructing a machine vision program for 69/70 than I would for 64/65.
Perhaps, Mitch, you appear to believe think that by rephrasing and reparsing other people's arguments leaves you the winner of the argument.
(Further "you's are not personal, but refer to the Cult of Perfection). You want to maintain the illusion that perfect coins exist and you can deliver them. MS70 has always meant the Unattainable Ideal. The TPG perversion of the English language offers that, and your cosigning that allows you to benefit from the ignorance of others to a degree unmatched in numismatic history. There is no way you can ever deliver. "Among the finest that will ever be attainable" doesn't sell as well as "perfect". This is beyond semantics, You are deliberately misusing a numismatic term of art to create an impression of pseudo-infallibility.
Back to personal - You have very clearly demarcated the limits of your professional grandiosity competencies. I am sure you have superb eyes to accomplish what are, to me, highly profitable but numismatically trivial tasks of "Meh" proportions.
Foolish for me to argue any points relating to this. I misread the question. Had it been expressed as "I'm a newbie. Am I screwing myself by paying up for an MS70", my answer would be "It's hype. This is crap the government spits out to sell precious metals." .Of course, I also say that about MS68 Saints. I'm a little more complimentary though. I consider them "fancy bullion".
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
We're referring to moderns here so leave the 64/65 discussion out.
Philosophically I disagree with having a 70 designation as perfection will always elude flawed human craftsmanship.
However... in the interest of seeing a vibrant marketplace for ASE and other moderns especially the new Morgan/Peace program and potential influx of new collectors I say rock and roll with it TPGs.
And to answer the Q...yes there are quantifiable differences between 69 and 70 in most cases. Again, we are speaking about flawed human opinion and analysis.
Colonel: Again, with all due respect, you don’t know the first thing about my business and your (borderline slanderous) posts prove just that. A tiny fraction of my business (for years) involves 70 graded coins. The vast majority of my dealings for many, many years now have nothing to do with 70s. My website hasn’t been updated more than a couple times in the past few years and those updates were simply by my son Justin. I have sold virtually nothing in the way of 70s (or any other grades) on my website or on eBay for many years. I’m not even in the country most of the time and haven’t attended a show in years (even before Covid). Please get your facts straight before taking “cheap shots” at people on other company message boards you don’t own. If you want to start (and fund) your own message board somewhere, please do. I’ll make it a point to not comment there.
I answered a newbie’s question and if you don’t like my answer, unfortunately, you are going to have to move on as you don’t run or own these message boards. You will not change my opinions through bullying tactics. I answered the question here honestly. I’m sorry you didn’t like the answer. But, don’t talk about me benefiting from the “ignorance of others” on the 70 grade when you don’t have a clue as to what I even do, what I have done in the past with respect to 70 graded coins, or what suggestions I offer to collectors seeking out these products.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
The difference between properly graded 69s and properly graded 70s are like night and day. PCGS should also consider adding the 69+ grade to the mix. I believe there would be strong demand for this new grade level on many of the most important modern coins.
Wondercoin
@wondercoin said:
The difference between properly graded 69s and properly graded 70s are like night and day. PCGS should also consider adding the 69+ grade to the mix. I believe there would be strong demand for this new grade level on many of the most important modern coins.
Nic. I think it would and here is why. Take the 95-W silver eagle. A coin worth about $3,000 in PR69 and $18,000+ in 70. If collectors could buy a 69+ for $4,000-$5,000, it would be a very logical choice for many collectors as opposed to chasing the $18,000 “70” version. This gives collectors a choice and I am in favor of almost anything where a collector gets more choices. Here, one can opt for a $4,000-$5,000 near perfect coin as opposed to paying $18,000 for that final 1/2 point (that most people would likely not be able to tell the difference between the 69+ and the 70).
If anyone thinks this is bad for collectors, I would always welcome that counter discussion. But, I have given just one example of a very popular modern coin where the 69+ grade would likely save many collectors big money by not having to buy the 70.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
If a collector is going to pony up real money for graded bullion coins, what incentive is there to go after 69+ coins? Right now, if collectors cannot afford coins graded 70, do they go after sets in 69 instead, or do they walk away and collect something else? Is there a meaningful numismatic market for coins graded 69? If not, why would a new 69+ grade change anything?
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
69+'s would be coming from upgrades to 69's. So- a collector would be paying several thousand dollars more for the exact same coin, the only difference being a "+" on the label.
Is that a good thing? Just askin'.
edited to add... If one can't tell the difference between a 69+ and a 70, one probably can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 69+ either, seems to me.
"borderline slanderous" - With my most extremely punctilious adherence to traditional social norms, and every last full measure of what we as a culture might expect of the respect for which I am assured you are due. I am retracting everything I posted on this thread with the most sincere and abject apology of which I am capable. I was wrong.
I apologize most deeply and profoundly for anything I might have stated or implied. You points are most salient. Your expertise and the ethical underpinning of the entire AGE and ASE programs are beyond my limited ability to understand. I find myself personally humiliated by my own foolish behavior based on my baleful ignorance of an area in which I both ruefully and happily acknowledge your expertise.
I've got no two cents. As usual, Just my 1804 dollar's worth of sense. A coin for a different realm.
A minor point about the 70 point grading system as currently applied by PCGS.
A "plus" represents a coin grading 6n.7 to 6n.9 or higher, but not reaching n+1. In this instance, 69.7 to 69.999+++ (or so)
Your "final half-point" doesn't seem to conform to their paradigm. Consider recalibrating to 0.299999999+ points of range, rather than 0.5.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Colonel: You don’t think this was a bit rough directed at someone who has sold for the past 3 or 4 years minimum perhaps 85% or 90%+ of coins dated before silver eagles, gold eagles and other bullion coins ever existed (pre-1986)?
“The TPG perversion of the English language offers that, and your cosigning that allows you to benefit from the ignorance of others to a degree unmatched in numismatic history. There is no way you can ever deliver. "Among the finest that will ever be attainable" doesn't sell as well as "perfect". This is beyond semantics, You are deliberately misusing a numismatic term of art to create an impression of pseudo-infallibility.”
I am not a defender in any way, shape or form of the AGE and ASE programs. We likely have more in common than we have not in common. For the love of G-d, I just simply said I could tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin! Then, I got punched silly!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I tell my customers all the time, I can screen there bullion/moderns for 70 rejects, but cant assure them 100% that the keepers will garner the 70.
Intresting story last week, one of my customers wanted to trade a few 1/1oth in for a 1 oz AGE. I saw this really nice 2013 in the tube with about 9 others and it was clearly superior in quality from the rest. He happened to mention that it was a pcgs 70 he has busted out to keep in his tube. You could clearly see the diff then
@wondercoin said:
“Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't. In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.”
Andy: Think about what you have said…
There is essentially no clear line between Any of the grades because it is more an art than a science. For which, I agree with you. And, hence, my comment about the science of submission being as important to anyone here attempting to master the pure “art” skill of knowing what a 64 should look like, a 65, a 66, a 67 or even a 68 and turning that knowledge into positive submission results. Since, there is no clear line between Any of the grade points, this should obviously be of great concern (or perhaps of no concern) to most numismatists separate and apart from whether the same is true with 69 vs. 70 modern coins.
As for the line between 69 and 70- You said when you pursue 70 grades from the services, you have had “pretty good luck predicting what will work”. Well, if there is a “clear line” between a 69 and 70, as you just stated, then one has to wonder why your “luck” is only “pretty good”. Someone like you, at the top of your numismatic game, shouldn’t have “pretty good luck” submitting coins with a “clear line” between grade points. First, it shouldn’t be a question of “luck” at all. And, second, your results should be far better than “pretty good”.
So, we can only conclude from your very own comments that there really isn’t a “clear line” between Any of the grades including the 69/70 line. But, as I have said repeatedly, I can tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin. The same as I can tell the difference between a properly graded 64 and 65 in a series I am very familiar with.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Agreed. But the truth is that I don't really know exactly how PCGS and NGC define 70. My assumption has always been that any marks on the coin that occurred after it was struck automatically disqualify it for 70, but super-trivial "as made" imperfections are sometimes ignored, which means that there would be something of a subjective line in that respect. Is that about right?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MasonG said:
69+'s would be coming from upgrades to 69's. So- a collector would be paying several thousand dollars more for the exact same coin, the only difference being a "+" on the label.
Is that a good thing? Just askin'.
edited to add... If one can't tell the difference between a 69+ and a 70, one probably can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 69+ either, seems to me.
It would seem to be a good thing for the submitter.
Why is 69+ some sort of special case? Isn't your question applicable to any particular grade level where there's a large jump in value? Note that I'm not disclosing my personal feelings on the matter, just trying to understand why 69+ in particular would be an objectionable grade to some people here.
@CoinJunkie said:
It would seem to be a good thing for the submitter.
No doubt.
@CoinJunkie said:
Why is 69+ some sort of special case?
Didn't say it was.
@CoinJunkie said:
Isn't your question applicable to any particular grade level where there's a large jump in value?
Don't know why not.
@CoinJunkie said:
Note that I'm not disclosing my personal feelings on the matter, just trying to understand why 69+ in particular would be an objectionable grade to some people here.
I didn't pick 69+ in particular. It just happened to be the current topic of discussion.
“Agreed. But the truth is that I don't really know exactly how PCGS and NGC define 70. My assumption has always been that any marks on the coin that occurred after it was struck automatically disqualify it for 70, but super-trivial "as made" imperfections are sometimes ignored, which means that there would be something of a subjective line in that respect. Is that about right?”
Yes. Well stated.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Oh man, you’re going to bring NGC into this now! That is a whole other game.
In the moderns their 70s have been more comparable to a PCGS 69, as noted in many other threads like this that go off the rails as so many of us has an opinion about the insane nature of high grade moderns (we are all aware it is a shell game) but as long as we can purchase near spot, WTH!
Beyond that pricing, especially with the threat of spotting in the silvers, you are collecting for the “art” and I have yet to hear or see of any consistent “£science” behind the incredibly subjective game of grading, at any level.
Once AI takes over, maybe.
I read somewhere that the major grading services define a MS70 coin as a coin with no visible flaws under 5X magnification which sounds reasonable. Not sure how they factor in strike or toning. Hopefully someone from PCGS can shed some light on this grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@wondercoin said:
“69+?
That would help collectors?”
Nic. I think it would and here is why. Take the 95-W silver eagle. A coin worth about $3,000 in PR69 and $18,000+ in 70. If collectors could buy a 69+ for $4,000-$5,000, it would be a very logical choice for many collectors as opposed to chasing the $18,000 “70” version. This gives collectors a choice and I am in favor of almost anything where a collector gets more choices. Here, one can opt for a $4,000-$5,000 near perfect coin as opposed to paying $18,000 for that final 1/2 point (that most people would likely not be able to tell the difference between the 69+ and the 70).
If anyone thinks this is bad for collectors, I would always welcome that counter discussion. But, I have given just one example of a very popular modern coin where the 69+ grade would likely save many collectors big money by not having to buy the 70.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Sure, except currently the same collector could buy the 69+ in its current 69 holder for $3000.
@MilesWaits said:
Oh man, you’re going to bring NGC into this now! That is a whole other game.
In the moderns their 70s have been more comparable to a PCGS 69, as noted in many other threads like this that go off the rails as so many of us has an opinion about the insane nature of high grade moderns (we are all aware it is a shell game) but as long as we can purchase near spot, WTH!
Beyond that pricing, especially with the threat of spotting in the silvers, you are collecting for the “art” and I have yet to hear or see of any consistent “£science” behind the incredibly subjective game of grading, at any level.
Once AI takes over, maybe.
AGE and ASE issues are the one exception I would make to my blanket statement that computers are useless for coin grading. It's much simpler than AI. It simply requires quite rigorous but finite measurement of the degree to which conformity with stated standards mathematically approaches 100%. Not just flaw-free, but other stuff like where "the line is" on CAM vs DCAM. I'm backing up my truck up to the loading dock in happy anticipation. Otherwise I'd describe the process as artisanal grading, which is what every other issue in the world has been subjected to. While the individual to whom many might impute the title of best grader of all time states the he thinks by reputation he is "a bit over-rated". As I think he generally knows as much and, often, much more than I do, I'm declaring both him and myself as "world-class grade guessers". Modern specialists rule
It would be intellectually dishonest to describe any coin as perfect without knowing the parameters of tolerance.
I don't buy pure gold. .99999 or so is "close enough for government work". "Pure" without a qualifier indicating any impurity whatsoever is fraudulent. You can sell "MS70' to liberal arts majors, but if you want to suggest the ultimate numismatic quality, few if any science majors will respond positively to any TPG representation that suggests or signifies perfection.
This is not legally fraud. I'm not sure I want to call it dishonest. But I will aver that it skirts a truth than the unwitting will be disadvantaged by not knowing. Commercially, that's a truth that dares not speak its name.
Just my 1804 $1's worth of sense.
@MilesWaits said:
.... we are all aware it is a shell game @CJCommercially, that's a truth that dares not speak its name
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
“I can't tell the difference because I would think a good size contact mark isn't a 70.
Buy the coin not the holder is the best advise. ”
Looks like it might be a sliver of plastic on top of the coin’s surface. Tap the bottom of the coin holder on the table and see if the sliver of plastic moves (or if it is truly on the coin).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin "Looks like a sliver of plastic on top of the metal. Tap the bottom of the coin holder on the table and see if the sliver of plastic moves (or if it is truly on the coin)."
I did all that and it wasn't plastic and it wasn't a strike-thru, just a contact mark.
I was happy to get rid of it.
@wondercoin said:
The difference between properly graded 69s and properly graded 70s are like night and day. PCGS should also consider adding the 69+ grade to the mix. I believe there would be strong demand for this new grade level on many of the most important modern coins.
Wondercoin
I was wondering when yo
@Herb_T said:
I am new at this, but I sure can’t tell any difference between a 69 and 70. Looking at a silver eagle proof or a gold eagle mint state. Is it easier to tell the difference in mint state coins as opposed to proofs? Can some of you help me in this area?
MS-70 • The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. No contact marks are visible under magnification. There are no noticeable hairlines, scuff marks, or defects. Eye appeal is attractive and outstanding. If copper, the coin is bright, with full original color and luster. Contact Marks: None show under magnification. • Hairlines: None show under magnification. • Luster: Very attractive. Fully original. • Eye Appeal: Outstanding.
MS-69 • Has very attractive sharp strike and full original luster for the date and mint, with no more than two small non-detracting contact marks or flaws. No hairlines or scuff marks can be seen. Has exceptional eye appeal. If copper, the coin is bright, with original color and luster. Contact Marks: 1 or 2 minuscule. None in prime focal areas. • Hairlines: None visible. • Luster: Very attractive. Fully original. • Eye Appeal: Exceptional.
So by definition the differences are non-distracting (except to Wondercoin) and miniscule.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
To answer the OP, yes I can usually see the difference now between a 69 and a 70. However, current grading is still being done by humans, and once in a while a coin with a visual mark might get graded 70 when it should not have been, and a legitimate 70 graded a 69.
A 70 is not "perfect" as very few things actually are. The grading standards at PCGS are defined as follows:
MS/PR69: "Virtually fully struck with miniscule imperfections visible upon close inspection."
MS/PR70: "Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks. The PCGS grading standard does allow for "as minted" defects, as long as those flaws are minor and do not impact the eye appeal of the coin."
I have a lot of modern 69-70 coins and over time I have learned to ignore the magnifying glass first and just look at the coin, turn it various angles in good light and just get to know it. A real 70 just about always has amazing luster and a fully struck look that pops out right away and you say, wow this coin looks really good compared to the other more common newly minted coins like it. Then look for any hits or other flaws with a magnifying glass, if needed. It is the luster and full strike that helps you see the difference.
@wondercoin said:
“Sure, except currently the same collector could buy the 69+ in its current 69 holder for $3000.”
Likewise, the current owner of the coin could sell at $4000-$5,000 and enjoy the true value of his coin.
Wondercoin
The seller will certainly enjoy the increased value. Earlier, you mentioned collectors buying these coins. Who do you think would enjoy the increased price more?
@PerryHall said:
I read somewhere that the major grading services define a MS70 coin as a coin with no visible flaws under 5X magnification which sounds reasonable. Not sure how they factor in strike or toning. Hopefully someone from PCGS can shed some light on this grade.
As I posted above, these are the grading standards as described on the PCGS website. They do not mention magnification, and minor as struck flaws are allowed if they do not detract from the overall eye appeal of the coin. Other grading services may have different criteria.
@MasonG said:
69+'s would be coming from upgrades to 69's. So- a collector would be paying several thousand dollars more for the exact same coin, the only difference being a "+" on the label.
Is that a good thing? Just askin'.
edited to add... If one can't tell the difference between a 69+ and a 70, one probably can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 69+ either, seems to me.
It would seem to be a good thing for the submitter.
Why is 69+ some sort of special case? Isn't your question applicable to any particular grade level where there's a large jump in value? Note that I'm not disclosing my personal feelings on the matter, just trying to understand why 69+ in particular would be an objectionable grade to some people here.
As you go down the scale from 70 to 69, 69 to 68, 68 to 67 and so on the differences in the things that differentiate the grades become larger. The mark hidden in a detail that keeps a 69 from being a 70 has no impact when discussing a 64 and 65.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@MasonG said:
69+'s would be coming from upgrades to 69's. So- a collector would be paying several thousand dollars more for the exact same coin, the only difference being a "+" on the label.
Is that a good thing? Just askin'.
edited to add... If one can't tell the difference between a 69+ and a 70, one probably can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 69+ either, seems to me.
It would seem to be a good thing for the submitter.
Why is 69+ some sort of special case? Isn't your question applicable to any particular grade level where there's a large jump in value? Note that I'm not disclosing my personal feelings on the matter, just trying to understand why 69+ in particular would be an objectionable grade to some people here.
As you go down the scale from 70 to 69, 69 to 68, 68 to 67 and so on the differences in the things that differentiate the grades become larger. The mark hidden in a detail that keeps a 69 from being a 70 has no impact when discussing a 64 and 65.
One could also argue that as you go down the scale the things that differentiate grades become harder to quantity.
@wondercoin said:
“I can't tell the difference because I would think a good size contact mark isn't a 70.
Buy the coin not the holder is the best advise. ”
Looks like it might be a sliver of plastic on top of the coin’s surface. Tap the bottom of the coin holder on the table and see if the sliver of plastic moves (or if it is truly on the coin).
Wondercoin
Sure looks like a plastic shard, look at the shadowing.
Comments
Give that man (Bullsitter) a contract!
Wondercoin
You have answered the literal question. You can do it.
If you want to argue that the 69/70 line is no different than the 64/65 line, I'll just dismiss of what you have to say as contaminated by an argument regarded as specious by anyone with who grades anything else other than Moderns. And anyone with the smallest amount of scientific bent who might analyze arguments for a technical grade approaching 70.
Let me rephrase my remark on the "lack of difference" in assessing 64/65 line vs. the 69/70 line. "What a patently ridiculous thing to say". Try this on for logic. "70 is a line. Everything else measured by it is not being truly measured, just assigned a "zone". I'm not attacking you or your works skills. It's the Modern zeitgeist.
70 at 5X and have a nice day
You kids are clearly great at what they do. If your daughter gets to a 51% rate (which I'm imagining is awesome) on 70's, let us know and I'll let you know what else you're missing. For all I know 30% generates enough profits. Your 70 isn't my 70. My 70 is impossible to attain. Your 70 grade can be denoted as "close enough for government work" but represents as "PERFECT". And "perfect" is just poetry. Just poetry.
We live and work on different planets. I'm performing an art and you believe you're approximating a science. I do poetry, and when you do WAQs I enjoy it. A Compugrade-driven process could blow NGC, PCGS and you out of the water after the 2nd tune-up for the AGE and ASE domains by date.
Anyone can grade anything whatever they want; the "market" sorts it all out. If there is no two-way market, If not. many would dispute on whether it is a market, or simply a marketing ploy. Moderns have legs, but grading and enjoying them seems as soulless as paving a road.
So i'll raise your MS70 two cents with my XF 1804 dollar and return to a planet where grading is more nuanced than "YES", "NO" and "MELT".
Really. I have some MS70 Pandas that have problems that are easily seen, and 69s that aren’t visible.
What’s your secret?
The problem here is chiefly one of semantics.
Why anyone would want to define MS-70 as "perfection" is beyond me since the term might not be applicable to the condition of a coin. But like a beautiful woman there are those who who might argue over the relative "perfection" of individual 10's. There is no single definition for what makes a "perfect" women and in most instances there will be some disagreement.
But coins aren't the same thing and fewer criteria separate them by condition. Suffice to say a "70" is a coin that is a "10" on each characteristic. Surfaces, cleanliness, strike, and dies as well as the derivative characteristics and even "eye appeal" all separate a "69" from a "70".
I certainly agree that no coin is truly "perfect" though the few that are close enough in every way are graded MS-70.
If not the race mightta died out long ago.
“You have answered the literal question. You can do it.
“We live and work on different planets. I'm performing an art and you believe you're approximating a science. “
Yes, and yes!
I agree with you that the 69/70 line is more of a “science” than any other grade point comparisons, while the grades 68 and under are optimally achieved through the “science” of submission and that submitting science is often far more important than your pure grading “art”.
Wondercoin
On the admittedly few occasions when I've screened and submitted moderns for 70's, I've had pretty good luck predicting what will work. So yes, I think I can see the difference and I respect the grading concept. That said, I have zero interest in collecting the things.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I use a 6x loupe.
Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't.
In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Never forget that grading system is set up for the PROFIT factor for the grading companies not collector enhancement. If not why have regrade submissions from same company that just graded your coin. If it was miss graded the first time and they upgrade on resubmission do you get a refund for the first grade? basically As far as authenticity and details it is a big help to collectors but grading Uncirculated coins is about money. I don't mean to say that dealers don't make money from these grades because they do but some people collect for the coin itself and others collect for monetary reasons and nothing wrong with that.
Just my opinion
Al
It's far far less subjective than the difference between bust half dollar grades and much less subjective than the difference between MS-64 and MS-65.
Suffice to say the "line" is narrower. The difference in grade is still there but the line is narrower.
This is well trod ground. I generally can find flaws in the "mass graded" 70s, and I won't expound on the issues related to such. On an individual basis there are subtleties that are sometimes missed, sometimes not by TPGs, or likely us for that matter. The 69/70 issue may not be of substantial difference other than for ego or monetary yield to many, or in fact all that rational IMO.
Well, just Love coins, period.
“Well, yes, it is different. There really is no clear line between 64 and 65, because there are so many variables to be considered on coins at that level, and balancing them out to reach a single grade is more art than science. But there is a clear line between 69 and 70, because the coin either has a flaw or it doesn't. In other words, the "line" between 64 and 65 is subjective. The line between 69 and 70 is not.”
Andy: Think about what you have said…
There is essentially no clear line between Any of the grades because it is more an art than a science. For which, I agree with you. And, hence, my comment about the science of submission being as important to anyone here attempting to master the pure “art” skill of knowing what a 64 should look like, a 65, a 66, a 67 or even a 68 and turning that knowledge into positive submission results. Since, there is no clear line between Any of the grade points, this should obviously be of great concern (or perhaps of no concern) to most numismatists separate and apart from whether the same is true with 69 vs. 70 modern coins.
As for the line between 69 and 70- You said when you pursue 70 grades from the services, you have had “pretty good luck predicting what will work”. Well, if there is a “clear line” between a 69 and 70, as you just stated, then one has to wonder why your “luck” is only “pretty good”. Someone like you, at the top of your numismatic game, shouldn’t have “pretty good luck” submitting coins with a “clear line” between grade points. First, it shouldn’t be a question of “luck” at all. And, second, your results should be far better than “pretty good”.
So, we can only conclude from your very own comments that there really isn’t a “clear line” between Any of the grades including the 69/70 line. But, as I have said repeatedly, I can tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin. The same as I can tell the difference between a properly graded 64 and 65 in a series I am very familiar with.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
"The 69/70 issue may not be of substantial difference other than for ego or monetary yield to many, or in fact all that rational IMO."
THIS
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I think some 69s that look better over time should upgrade. Some 70's over time, should be downgraded. Eye appeal barred, for now. Subjectivity, not so much.
To op: I would suggest you review ANA grading standards, get a copy of the book.
Generally it is a minute imperfection and examination with a glass will make it easier to see. Some not that hard to spot. As far as pricing 70 coins pop can be a factor.
Many graded silver bullion coins I might bid 10-15$ over melt for a 69. They are strong sellers at shows cost plus say 10 pct or simply $5. I might bid a few bucks more for a 70. Other than that knowing a high MV 70 can be a hard sell no interest.
Just take a look at CPG for the issue OGP, 69, and 70 to get a feel for how the issue is priced.
I generally am not a submitter of mods as once you take the Pcgs invoice total cost plus your outgoing shipping and take this total allocating to inventory cost of each the bump up may be substantial. More cost then has to be recovered in the markup equation.
69/70 has, we won't say less factors, but more givens and less variables to consider than 64/65, so it makes sense that people think of it as a more quantitative exercise. Let's say it this way, I would be much more confident constructing a machine vision program for 69/70 than I would for 64/65.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Perhaps, Mitch, you appear to believe think that by rephrasing and reparsing other people's arguments leaves you the winner of the argument.
(Further "you's are not personal, but refer to the Cult of Perfection). You want to maintain the illusion that perfect coins exist and you can deliver them. MS70 has always meant the Unattainable Ideal. The TPG perversion of the English language offers that, and your cosigning that allows you to benefit from the ignorance of others to a degree unmatched in numismatic history. There is no way you can ever deliver. "Among the finest that will ever be attainable" doesn't sell as well as "perfect". This is beyond semantics, You are deliberately misusing a numismatic term of art to create an impression of pseudo-infallibility.
Back to personal - You have very clearly demarcated the limits of your professional grandiosity competencies. I am sure you have superb eyes to accomplish what are, to me, highly profitable but numismatically trivial tasks of "Meh" proportions.
Foolish for me to argue any points relating to this. I misread the question. Had it been expressed as "I'm a newbie. Am I screwing myself by paying up for an MS70", my answer would be "It's hype. This is crap the government spits out to sell precious metals." .Of course, I also say that about MS68 Saints. I'm a little more complimentary though. I consider them "fancy bullion".
If only CAC would sticker them so we could be sure…
We're referring to moderns here so leave the 64/65 discussion out.
Philosophically I disagree with having a 70 designation as perfection will always elude flawed human craftsmanship.
However... in the interest of seeing a vibrant marketplace for ASE and other moderns especially the new Morgan/Peace program and potential influx of new collectors I say rock and roll with it TPGs.
And to answer the Q...yes there are quantifiable differences between 69 and 70 in most cases. Again, we are speaking about flawed human opinion and analysis.
Colonel: Again, with all due respect, you don’t know the first thing about my business and your (borderline slanderous) posts prove just that. A tiny fraction of my business (for years) involves 70 graded coins. The vast majority of my dealings for many, many years now have nothing to do with 70s. My website hasn’t been updated more than a couple times in the past few years and those updates were simply by my son Justin. I have sold virtually nothing in the way of 70s (or any other grades) on my website or on eBay for many years. I’m not even in the country most of the time and haven’t attended a show in years (even before Covid). Please get your facts straight before taking “cheap shots” at people on other company message boards you don’t own. If you want to start (and fund) your own message board somewhere, please do. I’ll make it a point to not comment there.
I answered a newbie’s question and if you don’t like my answer, unfortunately, you are going to have to move on as you don’t run or own these message boards. You will not change my opinions through bullying tactics. I answered the question here honestly. I’m sorry you didn’t like the answer. But, don’t talk about me benefiting from the “ignorance of others” on the 70 grade when you don’t have a clue as to what I even do, what I have done in the past with respect to 70 graded coins, or what suggestions I offer to collectors seeking out these products.
Wondercoin.
69+?
That would help collectors?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
“69+?
That would help collectors?”
Nic. I think it would and here is why. Take the 95-W silver eagle. A coin worth about $3,000 in PR69 and $18,000+ in 70. If collectors could buy a 69+ for $4,000-$5,000, it would be a very logical choice for many collectors as opposed to chasing the $18,000 “70” version. This gives collectors a choice and I am in favor of almost anything where a collector gets more choices. Here, one can opt for a $4,000-$5,000 near perfect coin as opposed to paying $18,000 for that final 1/2 point (that most people would likely not be able to tell the difference between the 69+ and the 70).
If anyone thinks this is bad for collectors, I would always welcome that counter discussion. But, I have given just one example of a very popular modern coin where the 69+ grade would likely save many collectors big money by not having to buy the 70.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
If a collector is going to pony up real money for graded bullion coins, what incentive is there to go after 69+ coins? Right now, if collectors cannot afford coins graded 70, do they go after sets in 69 instead, or do they walk away and collect something else? Is there a meaningful numismatic market for coins graded 69? If not, why would a new 69+ grade change anything?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
69+'s would be coming from upgrades to 69's. So- a collector would be paying several thousand dollars more for the exact same coin, the only difference being a "+" on the label.
Is that a good thing? Just askin'.
edited to add... If one can't tell the difference between a 69+ and a 70, one probably can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 69+ either, seems to me.
"borderline slanderous" - With my most extremely punctilious adherence to traditional social norms, and every last full measure of what we as a culture might expect of the respect for which I am assured you are due. I am retracting everything I posted on this thread with the most sincere and abject apology of which I am capable. I was wrong.
I apologize most deeply and profoundly for anything I might have stated or implied. You points are most salient. Your expertise and the ethical underpinning of the entire AGE and ASE programs are beyond my limited ability to understand. I find myself personally humiliated by my own foolish behavior based on my baleful ignorance of an area in which I both ruefully and happily acknowledge your expertise.
I've got no two cents. As usual, Just my 1804 dollar's worth of sense. A coin for a different realm.
A minor point about the 70 point grading system as currently applied by PCGS.
A "plus" represents a coin grading 6n.7 to 6n.9 or higher, but not reaching n+1. In this instance, 69.7 to 69.999+++ (or so)
Your "final half-point" doesn't seem to conform to their paradigm. Consider recalibrating to 0.299999999+ points of range, rather than 0.5.
I've had 69s that should have been 70s, and I've had 70s that should have been 68s or 69s. I've had a 69 that was re-graded to a 66.
In my view, it's mostly subjective and somewhat political.
Colonel: You don’t think this was a bit rough directed at someone who has sold for the past 3 or 4 years minimum perhaps 85% or 90%+ of coins dated before silver eagles, gold eagles and other bullion coins ever existed (pre-1986)?
“The TPG perversion of the English language offers that, and your cosigning that allows you to benefit from the ignorance of others to a degree unmatched in numismatic history. There is no way you can ever deliver. "Among the finest that will ever be attainable" doesn't sell as well as "perfect". This is beyond semantics, You are deliberately misusing a numismatic term of art to create an impression of pseudo-infallibility.”
I am not a defender in any way, shape or form of the AGE and ASE programs. We likely have more in common than we have not in common. For the love of G-d, I just simply said I could tell the difference between a properly graded 69 and a properly graded 70 coin! Then, I got punched silly!
Wondercoin
Yes and no,
I tell my customers all the time, I can screen there bullion/moderns for 70 rejects, but cant assure them 100% that the keepers will garner the 70.
Intresting story last week, one of my customers wanted to trade a few 1/1oth in for a 1 oz AGE. I saw this really nice 2013 in the tube with about 9 others and it was clearly superior in quality from the rest. He happened to mention that it was a pcgs 70 he has busted out to keep in his tube. You could clearly see the diff then
Agreed. But the truth is that I don't really know exactly how PCGS and NGC define 70. My assumption has always been that any marks on the coin that occurred after it was struck automatically disqualify it for 70, but super-trivial "as made" imperfections are sometimes ignored, which means that there would be something of a subjective line in that respect. Is that about right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It would seem to be a good thing for the submitter.
Why is 69+ some sort of special case? Isn't your question applicable to any particular grade level where there's a large jump in value? Note that I'm not disclosing my personal feelings on the matter, just trying to understand why 69+ in particular would be an objectionable grade to some people here.
No doubt.
Didn't say it was.
Don't know why not.
I didn't pick 69+ in particular. It just happened to be the current topic of discussion.
“Agreed. But the truth is that I don't really know exactly how PCGS and NGC define 70. My assumption has always been that any marks on the coin that occurred after it was struck automatically disqualify it for 70, but super-trivial "as made" imperfections are sometimes ignored, which means that there would be something of a subjective line in that respect. Is that about right?”
Yes. Well stated.
Wondercoin
Oh man, you’re going to bring NGC into this now! That is a whole other game.
In the moderns their 70s have been more comparable to a PCGS 69, as noted in many other threads like this that go off the rails as so many of us has an opinion about the insane nature of high grade moderns (we are all aware it is a shell game) but as long as we can purchase near spot, WTH!
Beyond that pricing, especially with the threat of spotting in the silvers, you are collecting for the “art” and I have yet to hear or see of any consistent “£science” behind the incredibly subjective game of grading, at any level.
Once AI takes over, maybe.
I read somewhere that the major grading services define a MS70 coin as a coin with no visible flaws under 5X magnification which sounds reasonable. Not sure how they factor in strike or toning. Hopefully someone from PCGS can shed some light on this grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I can't tell the difference because I would think a good size contact mark isn't a 70.
Buy the coin not the holder is the best advise.
Sure, except currently the same collector could buy the 69+ in its current 69 holder for $3000.
AGE and ASE issues are the one exception I would make to my blanket statement that computers are useless for coin grading. It's much simpler than AI. It simply requires quite rigorous but finite measurement of the degree to which conformity with stated standards mathematically approaches 100%. Not just flaw-free, but other stuff like where "the line is" on CAM vs DCAM. I'm backing up my truck up to the loading dock in happy anticipation. Otherwise I'd describe the process as artisanal grading, which is what every other issue in the world has been subjected to. While the individual to whom many might impute the title of best grader of all time states the he thinks by reputation he is "a bit over-rated". As I think he generally knows as much and, often, much more than I do, I'm declaring both him and myself as "world-class grade guessers". Modern specialists rule
It would be intellectually dishonest to describe any coin as perfect without knowing the parameters of tolerance.
I don't buy pure gold. .99999 or so is "close enough for government work". "Pure" without a qualifier indicating any impurity whatsoever is fraudulent. You can sell "MS70' to liberal arts majors, but if you want to suggest the ultimate numismatic quality, few if any science majors will respond positively to any TPG representation that suggests or signifies perfection.
This is not legally fraud. I'm not sure I want to call it dishonest. But I will aver that it skirts a truth than the unwitting will be disadvantaged by not knowing. Commercially, that's a truth that dares not speak its name.
Just my 1804 $1's worth of sense.
“I can't tell the difference because I would think a good size contact mark isn't a 70.
”
Buy the coin not the holder is the best advise.
Looks like it might be a sliver of plastic on top of the coin’s surface. Tap the bottom of the coin holder on the table and see if the sliver of plastic moves (or if it is truly on the coin).
Wondercoin
“Sure, except currently the same collector could buy the 69+ in its current 69 holder for $3000.”
Likewise, the current owner of the coin could sell at $4000-$5,000 and enjoy the true value of his coin.
Wondercoin
@wondercoin
"Looks like a sliver of plastic on top of the metal. Tap the bottom of the coin holder on the table and see if the sliver of plastic moves (or if it is truly on the coin)."
I did all that and it wasn't plastic and it wasn't a strike-thru, just a contact mark.
I was happy to get rid of it.
Not I.
I was wondering when yo
MS-70 • The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. No contact marks are visible under magnification. There are no noticeable hairlines, scuff marks, or defects. Eye appeal is attractive and outstanding. If copper, the coin is bright, with full original color and luster. Contact Marks: None show under magnification. • Hairlines: None show under magnification. • Luster: Very attractive. Fully original. • Eye Appeal: Outstanding.
MS-69 • Has very attractive sharp strike and full original luster for the date and mint, with no more than two small non-detracting contact marks or flaws. No hairlines or scuff marks can be seen. Has exceptional eye appeal. If copper, the coin is bright, with original color and luster. Contact Marks: 1 or 2 minuscule. None in prime focal areas. • Hairlines: None visible. • Luster: Very attractive. Fully original. • Eye Appeal: Exceptional.
So by definition the differences are non-distracting (except to Wondercoin) and miniscule.
To answer the OP, yes I can usually see the difference now between a 69 and a 70. However, current grading is still being done by humans, and once in a while a coin with a visual mark might get graded 70 when it should not have been, and a legitimate 70 graded a 69.
A 70 is not "perfect" as very few things actually are. The grading standards at PCGS are defined as follows:
MS/PR69: "Virtually fully struck with miniscule imperfections visible upon close inspection."
MS/PR70: "Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks. The PCGS grading standard does allow for "as minted" defects, as long as those flaws are minor and do not impact the eye appeal of the coin."
I have a lot of modern 69-70 coins and over time I have learned to ignore the magnifying glass first and just look at the coin, turn it various angles in good light and just get to know it. A real 70 just about always has amazing luster and a fully struck look that pops out right away and you say, wow this coin looks really good compared to the other more common newly minted coins like it. Then look for any hits or other flaws with a magnifying glass, if needed. It is the luster and full strike that helps you see the difference.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The seller will certainly enjoy the increased value. Earlier, you mentioned collectors buying these coins. Who do you think would enjoy the increased price more?
As I posted above, these are the grading standards as described on the PCGS website. They do not mention magnification, and minor as struck flaws are allowed if they do not detract from the overall eye appeal of the coin. Other grading services may have different criteria.
https://www.pcgs.com/grades
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
As you go down the scale from 70 to 69, 69 to 68, 68 to 67 and so on the differences in the things that differentiate the grades become larger. The mark hidden in a detail that keeps a 69 from being a 70 has no impact when discussing a 64 and 65.
One could also argue that as you go down the scale the things that differentiate grades become harder to quantity.
Sure looks like a plastic shard, look at the shadowing.
One hundred!