Hypothetically-- which two dealers, if they joined forces, could dominate the numismatic marketplace

Longacre · June 22, 2006 2:20AM

Some mergers work, and some don't. Putting aside general business issues or personality issues, which two dealers do you think, if they join forces, can truly dominate the numismatic marketplace (or at least a decent segment of the marketplace). For example, if Legend joined up with Mark Feld Numismatics, I think the merged firm could dominate the East coast/West coast market for very high eye appealing rarities and silver type. Such a merger would combine bravado with some good, home-spun folksy practices. Hypothetically, which two dealers (you can only pick two) would be a good match from a market point of view and why? Or is this really a hypothetical because any two coin dealers/market leaders are natural enemies, like a boa constrictor and a mongoose, and it would be impossible for them to join forces under the laws of nature?

holadude · June 22, 2006 2:23AM

Me and whoever currently dominates!

RYK · June 22, 2006 2:25AM

I always thought the Pinnacle team (with Feld, Winter, and Imhof still present) and Legend could clean up--if they could keep it together.

BECOKA · June 22, 2006 2:25AM

After Legend announced adding auctions I immediately thought about what would happen if Legend and David Lawrence merged.

ScarsdaleCoin · June 22, 2006 2:26AM

OK I'LL PLAY,

US MINT + EBAY

RYK · June 22, 2006 2:27AM

On second thought, it might be better to think of combining larger operations, like Blanchard and Littleton, rather than smaller boutique firms.

Or, Heritage can combine with itself.

Longacre · June 22, 2006 2:33AM

<< On second thought, it might be better to think of combining larger operations, like Blanchard and Littleton, rather than smaller boutique firms.

Or, Heritage can combine with itself.

>>

I was thinking boutique firms, but if we want to discuss larger firms, that is fine too. Of course, Heritage could merge with anyone it wants at will (sort of like the Animal House movie and the question-- "do you mind if we dance with your dates?" There is only one answer to that question).

Dentuck · June 22, 2006 2:39AM

Hi Longacre! Interesting hypothetical, but I wonder why you specify "Putting aside general business issues and personality issues"? I assume you mean "conflicts"... because the business part (the "good, home-spun, folksy practices" in your example) and the personality part (the "bravado") are both pretty important to a firm's success!

Clankeye · June 22, 2006 2:43AM

Russ and Marty.

Longacre · June 22, 2006 2:43AM

<< Hi Longacre! Interesting hypothetical, but I wonder why you specify "Putting aside general business issues and personality issues"? I assume you mean "conflicts"... because the business part (the "good, home-spun, folksy practices" in your example) and the personality part (the "bravado") are both pretty important to a firm's success! >>

What I meant was overlooking legal issues that might get in the way of a merger, such as regulatory issues with larger companies, etc., etc. The hypo is open to any and all suggestions. No limits.

poorguy · June 22, 2006 2:49AM

Anaconda and Legend.

C'mon, somebody had to say it.

JrGMan2004 · June 22, 2006 2:49AM

No one... no one can completely dominate every aspect of the business

However... 2-3 dealers merging could certainly dominate a niche market... for example, 3 Cent Silvers... Early Gold... that type of thing, with only a small number of collectors

Cladiator · June 22, 2006 2:51AM

Blue Moon Coins and Coin Vault

PhillyJoe · June 22, 2006 3:01AM

<< Russ and Marty. >>

Be careful what you wish for.

Joe

BigTom · June 22, 2006 3:04AM

Legends & PQ Dollars

BillJones · June 22, 2006 3:09AM

First, I don't see enough of the coin market dominated by any pair of firms that would add up market dominance by just two firms.

Second, for a merger to work there must be the right chemistry between to the two firms. For example if one firm’s mode of business is helpful and friendly while the other firm is rude and obnoxious, except to a small group of well-healed customers, the partnership will be doomed.

BigTom · June 22, 2006 3:49AM

<< ........if one firm’s mode of business is helpful and friendly while the other firm is rude and obnoxious, except to a small group of well-healed customers, the partnership will be doomed. >>

Love it! Hypothetically speaking, of course.

sweetwilliet · June 22, 2006 4:13AM

nencoin · June 22, 2006 4:20AM

<< OK I'LL PLAY,

US MINT + EBAY >>

Not a bad answer...

BillJones · June 22, 2006 5:18AM

How about Ebay and the Coin Vault? Given some of deals I've seen offered at both places it's a match made in heaven.

Trime · June 23, 2006 8:43AM

Partnerships and buyouts in a cottage industry like coin dealing must be difficult because of the highly entreneurial aspect of this business, the under the counter and cash dealings ,the personal style of the participants, and the cyclicity of the market. That is why partnerships come and go as well as the managers changing shops. I could see buyouts in the auction areas more easily accomplished. Now having given my opinion, I confess to never having been a dealer or having worked in a the coin business. Not even a wannabe.

RWB · June 23, 2006 8:48AM

You'd best hope Gates or the Google Twins never get hooked on dealing/collecting coins - either could buy every quality coin on the market at the blik of a check book.

TWQG · June 23, 2006 8:51AM

<< are natural enemies, like a boa constrictor and a mongoose >>

- these two animals live on different continents and never encounter each other.

Fairlaneman · June 23, 2006 9:01AM

<< Legends & PQ Dollars >>

....

......

michael · June 23, 2006 2:32PM

john albanese and monaco

oreville · June 23, 2006 3:05PM

No two dealers would dominate. Heritage became primarily an auctioneer over the past 10-15 years so that they no longer seem to want to dominate in the retail business.

However, I have always been intrigued by the possible combination of Leon Hendrickson and Blanchard. Interesting wholesale combination?

morgannut2 · June 23, 2006 3:28PM

If Q.D. Bowers retires to write--a merger of ANR with Legend with Laura Sperber/Kristine Karstadt as presidents ( & who do get along fine) could dominate the high end market. Working a joint auction would not only bring in their former customer's coins, but if they really do the photos well, newer customers would be attracted away from Heritage-Superior-Goldberg to some extent. With bigger combined cashflow from auctions, a bank credit line would cut into Rare Coin Wholesalers ability to dominate super rare material----
--------------
Heck they could even hire Madmarty, to run a weekly auction of moderns/no reserve lower cost stuff!

SFDukie · June 23, 2006 4:39PM

<< First, I don't see enough of the coin market dominated by any pair of firms that would add up market dominance by just two firms.

Second, for a merger to work there must be the right chemistry between to the two firms. For example if one firm’s mode of business is helpful and friendly while the other firm is rude and obnoxious, except to a small group of well-healed customers, the partnership will be doomed. >>

Bill that is one of the most humerous posts I've seen on the coin forum!

bidask · June 24, 2006 9:52PM

<< If Q.D. Bowers retires to write--a merger of ANR with Legend with Laura Sperber/Kristine Karstadt as presidents ( & who do get along fine) could dominate the high end market. Working a joint auction would not only bring in their former customer's coins, but if they really do the photos well, newer customers would be attracted away from Heritage-Superior-Goldberg to some extent. With bigger combined cashflow from auctions, a bank credit line would cut into Rare Coin Wholesalers ability to dominate super rare material---- Now that would be something to have 2 knowledgeable women dominate in this industry!
--------------
Heck they could even hire Madmarty, to run a weekly auction of moderns/no reserve lower cost stuff!

>>

09sVDB · June 24, 2006 10:11PM

Wouldl't want it as that would drive prices up and create a monopoly.

elwood · June 24, 2006 10:40PM

There are none.

They could make their presence known but would not dominate.

They could pick a certain series and have a dramatic impact on price levels.

tradedollarnut · June 25, 2006 12:34AM

Bobby Hughes and Laura Sperber. There wouldn't be a single coin left for anyone else to buy....

roadrunner · June 25, 2006 1:28AM

It was already tried......back in 1983 when Ivy and Halperin joined forces. At the time they were arguably the 2 of the biggest players in the game. Now look at them. Don't know if you have anything that could quite duplicate that brain trust today. And of course, they do dominate the numismatic marketplace.

roadrunner

EarlyUS · September 23, 2020 7:56AM

Amazon plus, the U.S. Mint.

Cougar1978 · September 23, 2020 12:16PM

None whether read about here (some definitely thumbs down) and none on bourse as I see it as a entrepreneur business just like you can have only one head college football coach.

As far as which 2 have most combined capital could only guess. Like college football coaches (off /def playbooks) everyone in coin business has their own style, specialization, strengths on both sides of the ball (buying selling).

However, As far as op question there could exist - partnerships where you had the ultra wealthy collector / owner calling the shots (puppeteer) and the dealer handling his material (puppet). Somebody w tens of millions $ or more could probably do that - Sort of like a pro football owner / coach relationship. I have only seen one instance (here) where I have suspected that but none necessarily on bourse at shows.

US coins are not the only numismatic market - numismatics is worldwide and consists of both coins & currency - graded and raw. Further more whether a $ or $10,000 it all adds up.

fathom · September 23, 2020 4:41PM

The US Classic coin marketplace is already thinly traded. I don't know how more concentration of sellers would benefit pricing or transaction efficiencies.

Martin · September 23, 2020 5:28PM

Ok I bit on the old thread
Martin

Boosibri · September 23, 2020 5:57PM

PCGS and Heritage

MrEureka · September 23, 2020 6:07PM

I don’t know that it’s possible to dominate the coin business without killing it in the process.

hchcoin · September 23, 2020 6:09PM

@Martin said:
Ok I bit on the old thread
Martin

Some of the old threads are a lot more interesting and thought provoking.

PTVETTER · September 23, 2020 6:28PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Bobby Hughes and Laura Sperber. There wouldn't be a single coin left for anyone else to buy....

Bobby Hughes???

chesterb · September 23, 2020 7:03PM

APMEX and JM Bullion

Walkerfan · September 23, 2020 8:22PM

@PTVETTER said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Bobby Hughes and Laura Sperber. There wouldn't be a single coin left for anyone else to buy....

Bobby Hughes???

Robert L Hughes was a real mover and a shaker. Based out of Cali. He used to have a strong internet presence with high-end inventory. He did very right by me, in purchasing one of my coins for what I paid for it, when I thought that I would takes a huge loss. He still sold it for an over $2,000 profit to a top ranking Registry guy! The man was the best at moving inventory!! He was a strong buyer too!! The smoothest and fairest transaction that I have ever been a part of. What on Earth is he doing these days??? I wish him all the best!! I wish that every dealer was like him!!

PTVETTER · September 23, 2020 9:22PM

talk to me at PAN

blu62vette · September 23, 2020 11:00PM

@Walkerfan said:

@PTVETTER said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Bobby Hughes and Laura Sperber. There wouldn't be a single coin left for anyone else to buy....

Bobby Hughes???

Robert L Hughes was a real mover and a shaker. Based out of Cali. He used to have a strong internet presence with high-end inventory. He did very right by me, in purchasing one of my coins for what I paid for it, when I thought that I would takes a huge loss. He still sold it for an over $2,000 profit to a top ranking Registry guy! The man was the best at moving inventory!! He was a strong buyer too!! The smoothest and fairest transaction that I have ever been a part of. What on Earth is he doing these days??? I wish him all the best!! I wish that every dealer was like him!!

He has been with so many different companies over the past few years. Glad you had good transactions with him, there are those that have not based on bankruptcies. I think most get made whole but sure not smooth. Probably better he is working for others now.

Walkerfan · September 24, 2020 7:41AM

@blu62vette Yes, I did hear that. I guess that I was lucky at the time.

Catbert · September 24, 2020 7:54AM

What is the advantage to the collector based upon these hypothetical consolidations?

logger7 · September 24, 2020 7:55AM

Diversity is strength, imagine a merger of NGC and PCGS. We were a lot better off 20 years ago with more diversity and quality numismatic companies, one possible improvement has been cac. Teletrade was an excellent company, Spectrum, the "king of cash". Most mergers I have seen have not lead to greater consumer service and value. When companies get taken over by Ivy league hot shots who haven't put in the years of stressful work and service, companies often go downhill, some go out of business.

Coinosaurus · September 24, 2020 11:01AM

@logger7 said:
Diversity is strength, imagine a merger of NGC and PCGS.

Were these two to merge you would have an overall loss of confidence in third party grading. This is a case where competition is an exceptionally good thing.

BrettPCGS · September 24, 2020 12:19PM

I think many people less familiar with Jason Carter and Carter Numismatics don't realize how big of a deal this was earlier this year. Like the Yankees acquiring Babe Ruth.

https://www.stacksbowers.com/News/Pages/PressReleases.aspx?ArticleID=stacks-bowers-and-carter-numismatics-join-forces

nencoin · September 24, 2020 12:27PM

@BrettPCGS said:
I think many people less familiar with Jason Carter and Carter Numismatics don't realize how big of a deal this was earlier this year. Like the Yankees acquiring Babe Ruth.

https://www.stacksbowers.com/News/Pages/PressReleases.aspx?ArticleID=stacks-bowers-and-carter-numismatics-join-forces

A BIG +1 on this.

Hypothetically-- which two dealers, if they joined forces, could dominate the numismatic marketplace

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