Can Coin Dealers be Coin Collectors?
1630Boston
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Can Coin Dealers be Coin Collectors?
In most collectibles fields, many of the greatest collections ever formed were by dealers. This is especially true in the art world where the line between what is a “collection” and what is “inventory” is blurry; certainly far more so than in the world of coins.
Focusing on coins, I’d say that you want to buy from someone who is a coin weenie; someone who loves coins every bit as much as you do. I know I admire those dealers who really love coins more than those for whom numismatics is just a business, and who don’t really care that one 1845-O quarter eagle is choice and original while another is abraded and processed.
In the 19th and early 20th century, many of the most prominent U.S. dealers were collectors as well. Lyman Low, John Haseltine, David Proskey, Ed. Frossard, M.H. Bolender, Al Overton, and others assembled great specialized collections which were sold during their lifetimes and for which they are remembered even today.
Numismatics has evolved from an esoteric hobby into a big multi-national business since World War II, and for every post-war dealer like John Ford or David Akers who owned great coins, there are dealers who either do not care to collect or who do not want to be placed in a position where they are competing with their clients.
Let me give you an example. I recently bought a beautiful PCGS AU58 1846-O half eagle. This is exactly the type of coin I’d put away if I were a collector. So here was my predicament: do I keep the coin or sell it to any one of the dozen or so collectors who I work with on Liberty Head half eagle or New Orleans gold collections? I agonized for a second or two and quickly decided to sell the coin to a good collector. It was a simple; I’m a coin dealer not a coin collector. And here is another conundrum: if I were putting together a set of Liberty Head half eagles and I needed an 1846-O, why would I sell such a coin as perfect as the aforementioned example to a “competitor?”
But I still want to collect, and I’m not going to be relegated to something totally out of numismatics in order to escape potential conflicts of interest. My solution is pretty simple: I collect paper money, coin books, cool numismatic knick-knacks, and silver coins that do not typically appear in my inventory. Once or twice a year I do buy a gold coin for myself that is so unusual (from the standpoint of appearance) or so undervalued that I put it away. Such coins usually stay in my safe deposit box for a year or two until I have a client who I feel will appreciate the coin (and will sell it back to me when he tires of it) or if the market has risen enough to motivate me to take my profit (in the case of a Civil War eagle I recently sold).
So that’s my answer. A coin dealer should be a coin collector, just not in the area in which he specializes. Your thoughts?
From CoinWeek By Doug Winter [a few years ago]
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Comments
No, because they will always try ripping themselves.
My Saint Set
Many claim to be both... and, to some degree, likely are. Personally, I would probably be a lousy dealer, since I never want to part with my coins. Cheers, RickO
How long is a coin or coins to be held before it/they are considered to be part of a collection?
I see many "collectors" are actually only holding coins to flip, or at least it ends up that way.
Lines are a bit fuzzy....
Well, just Love coins, period.
Checking the BST indicates there is a lot of wheeling and dealing going on in this here place. I reckon. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
The dealers I knew who were collectors as well handled it by only collecting that which they aren’t selling. That way there’s no temptation either to sell what you collect or collect what you’re actively selling.
Only if they continue to think like a dealer and buy like a dealer.
the greats might have a side niche but try not to compete with their customers. If you get first dibs on the juicy stuff, what would be left for the customers.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Hard to make a living as a dealer if one isn’t selling!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The best dealers i know try not 2 collect as it interferes with business. The ones that try to do both often have hard times letting go of a certain coin or series there fond of. Yet again some are able to do both Idk how.
Dealers should love the hobby, and I've heard many talk about "tucking one away" for themselves, but when selling coins is how you make your living, you've got to turn the inventory. As mentioned above, all the choice stuff can't be snatched up by the dealer or they won't be able to get and keep customers. I look at dealer-collectors kind of like real estate broker-investors. There's only so much they can take for themselves and if they're smart about it, there's enough to go around for everyone that they can sell enough to eat and buy for their own investments.
I went from a hardcore coin collector to a coin dealer, I love my coins.
I have no coins held away in a collection.
I view my inventory as my collection, that happens to change all the time
I actually thought about starting a thread on this. Yes I am a collector and a dealer. And yes, it does tick a few collectors off that collect what I want. I actually have a person who I will not name that is basically extorting me in a sense...saying he is bad mouthing me to other collectors unless I sell some of the best coins in my collection for crazy low prices. 1 of the pieces I actually purchased from him between 5 + 10 years ago and he thinks I should sell it to the person he is trying to help for 1/2 what I paid for it!
Regardless of the price... they are my core collection and are not for sale. That being said, I consider my self a collector 1st and a dealer 2nd. I'm semi-retired and find other than the occasional thorn like him I enjoy both very much. I'm also satisfied with the success I have had dealing.
I became a dealer when I was an avid world coin collector. I started setting up at shows with the sole intent of buying coins for my collection, as very few dealers fooled with world coins back then. I would see people trying to sell world coins and they were lucky if they were offered 10c on the dollar! Now if you wanted to see ticked off customers, it happened many times at shows when they would see me buy something I wanted and they wanted also.
It wouldn't work for me ... but it might work for you.
I don't see anything wrong with it. That's me thou
I'm both a coin dealer and coin collector myself so yes but one has to balance the two knowing what to keep and what to sell
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
I don't see anything wrong with it.
I totally disagree with that sentiment. If I have to compete with a dealer, I always feel that anything in their inventory is castoffs they don't want.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
The last statement is how I look at it.
Years ago, when I began my business, I bought a neat little group of trade dollars. I was immediately in love with them, never before having owned any. I tucked them into the safe. Not very long after, a possible customer came in looking for trade dollars. "I don't have any" I lied. I never saw that guy again.
So, I started thinking, Maybe I would be financially more successful if everything is for sale. The 'collector' in me never left. My collection became my inventory. It was just constantly changing and evolving.
If their focus is narrow enough. A dealer who collects the same things you do may not be your best source.
people have many reasons for selling coins, due to the need for funds, doesn't fit their collection ETC.. one must understand the complex reasons behind someone selling a coin or something
it's not they didn't want it or it's a castoff but maybe for reasons we don't know why they are selling that item always keep that in mind that people sell things for many reasons
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
My experience is that collecting coins is detrimental to the bottom line, but it makes the business a lot more enjoyable. I'm fine with that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, they all have to sign non-compete contracts before they are officially recognized as dealers.
I've enjoyed working either side of the counter. It is difficult to collect and deal ( some things) . I may hold a piece too long, asking too much, all because of the collector in me.
A discipline, all the same. A trade off, either way.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Depends, does the rent need to be paid this month.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I think a dealer can collect with some caveats that have been mentioned already. I think it's more likely that collectors struggle to act as dealers. Many folks don't feel comfortable selling their collections and develop sentimental value for their coins that might inhibit sale.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I think this experience is probably representative of what many collectors feel. Albeit, your example seems more dramatic than ones I've caught wind of.
If collector's know a dealer buys, it can taint their inventory. A buyer might automatically start assuming that every coin you are selling is 2nd best, because you would have kept the best. With that in mind, I think it's best for dealers to be up front and clear about what they collect and why. You could try to keep a secret collection, but that's a tough secret to keep.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Totally fine with me. We choose to do business with whoever we want. If inventory is subpar because a dealer is keeping the best examples for their collection then vote with your dollars.
Suppose that dealer's 2nd best is better than what anybody else has for sale. What to do then?
It's a valid question and there are some good answers and insights here, as always. No one answer is right for everyone, for sure. But I agree with the premise that a coin dealer should be a collector, otherwise I'm not sure he truly understands the collector he services. Being upfront about what you collect as a dealer probably helps establish a relationship, especially if it's not the same as the client collects.
To me, competing with your clients would be an issue, most especially if your clients goal is to obtain the same material and grade ranges you collect. I would still work with such a dealer, mostly because I'll buy from anyone for the right coin and the right price, but ... knowing they were also searching and buying the same material I was would be a conflict of interest to me, and I would probably not pursue a more specific dealer-client relationship for that material with that dealer.
I have been relatively close to a couple dealers over my life ... both helped mentor me a bit ... and also close enough to talk a bit more than coins. I know both of them also collected. They were open about it, if you asked.
One collected Bust Halves, and it's the one thing he very rarely sold in grades over Ch EF. He just didn't. Steve had a nice shop, did a lot of business, did 8 to 10 shows a year I think, and turned it into a family enterprise. But when it came to Bust Halves, if they were nice, original and/or attractive, in AU+ to Gem Unc, he generally kept them. No competition because he didn't service that market. If you knew him, he was a buyer of that material, and a fairly strong one too ... very seldom a seller.
The other collected Paper Money and Dark-side Gold (probably silver too). The paper was US, but the gold was esoteric stuff. 1700's Italian pieces, old European stuff. Things I had never seen before (this was all pre-internet). Bill serviced US Coin market clients and even other dealers, had a great eye ... built up a nice corner shop and did a fair amount of shows. Same thing, he didn't compete or collect the same that his client base did, and IF they did, they weren't doing much, and they weren't buying that material from him.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
@ErrorsOnCoins collects exactly the coins he sells but he collects from his inventory seems to sell quickly and easily. So it seems like he can enjoy great coins as they come through but I'm not sure he builds up a collection over time.
I will mention that one of my dealers actively collects in an area he deals and I collect. Conversations about past auctions are interesting. From his perspective, it seems like he only collects specific series of his offerings and will sell duplicates.
My recollection is that the 1996 book "Millionaire Next Door" discussed this from a different aspect. It was from the point of view of these people (not just coin dealers but dealers generally) using their information advantage to build their net worth. Pre-internet but still applies to a great extent if they have an extensive network. That's what I understand Ford and Bowers did and it makes sense. It's a full time job which at least Bowers obviously loves, so leveraging their time for both makes complete sense.
If I were a dealer, it would only work as some have described here, collecting an area (as I do now) and selling others. I wouldn't choose this approach to avoid a conflict (there isn't one), but that I wouldn't be successful otherwise.
How was Ford as a dealer and what did he collect?
Most of what I know about him is his exonumia collection which is often pedigreed to him when it comes up for sale and his counterfeit gold, done with Paul Franklin.
I bet @ThePennyLady could add some perspective regarding this thread.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I wonder if she has any collectors loathing after coins in her collection?
No - the business would suffer. My inventory is my investment (collection). I never know what is going to retail (Which batter will get a hit). Being collector not on table for me.
Sometimes one may hold back inventory from say shows like certain players might not dress for the game - redshirts. Or others might be benched (not needed for current playbook).
Online want list everything I can within manageable limit. Flooding field with WR.
I'm not sure loathing is the right word, but I'm lusting after coins in her collection
Here's a definition of loathing:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loathing
Well, I didn't want to use the word extorting in the correct syntac!
Well, that could be. but I'm not sure how that would be different from being in a collector's collection. If anything, a dealer may be more willing to sell?
I haver picked up pieces from a dealer's personal collection, but I see that as similar to buying from a collector.
Don't know that much about him other than what I saw in the Stacks catalogues when his collection was sold around 2005. My recollection is that he collected what most other US collectors generally do not. I don't remember the specifics other than his collection was quite extensive, as in worth eight digits.
One important point is that dealers who collect coins typically get their acquisitions for less than retail value if they buy from other dealers (or collectors). This is not an option for pure collectors who buy from dealers.
Regarding John J. Ford, Jr.: He was plugged into the New York numismatic scene (Wayte Raymond was his mentor), and essentially ran New Netherlands for Charles Wormser until their falling out. He had access to incredible amounts of material, and famously said that his collecting interests were what was not in the Red Book (so not many others were chasing what interested him). While Stack's got most of his collection to auction off (catalogued in 24 volumes!), there were other auctions and fixed price sales of his library (Kolbe) and smaller side numismatic collections.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
@Catbert said:
I get asked this question all the time. Most of you know I LOVE pennies and started out as a collector. When I became a dealer, I certainly didn't want to stop being a collector so I made a "pact" with myself. I would continue to collect coins for my collections but (excluding varieties and errors), I would only collect ONE of each coin. So if I found another coin that I liked better than the one in my collection, I would have to sell the one in my collection even if I really like it too. And I've stuck to that and it's worked out just fine for me and hasn't interfered with my being a dealer. (Since I don't sell exonumia as a dealer, I don't need to have the same "pact" with myself and have multiples of some of my exonumia pieces).
I actually post my collections (Indian and Lincoln cents) on my website under "Charmy's Collections" https://thepennylady.com/coin-category/charmys-collections/
I do get a lot of folks asking to buy coins from my collections and/or put them on a "list" if I ever sell them, but the coins in my personal collection are truly not for sale (unless I find one I like better). And if I do find one better and post the "old" one for sale, it usually doesn't take very long to find a new home!
So I think if you have discipline, you can be a successful collector and a successful dealer.
The Penny Lady®
That's pretty much how I do also.
It sounds like some people are in competition for everything. Is it that you think every coin you buy is the best there is. If someone is offering a coin for sale you either like it or you don't. Weather or not that person owns a better one is irrelevant. In short I am saying I do not care if a dealer collects. I either like what they are offering or i don't.
This. You need to be able to compartmentalize your life if you are going to succeed. At anything. If you are a coin dealer, you are selling product. Some product is nicer than other product, but it's still, product.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It has been enlightening reading the varied responses.
As with many similar questions the answer seems to be, “It depends....”
It is understandable though how a dealer who collects the items he has for sale is going to be less willing to negotiate for less than his asking price.
I would like to also add that if a dealer does not offer quality coins they will not last long. There is a line to walk.
I always imagine I'm up against a dealer when bidding.
Eventually we pass the "no meat for you" price
My Saint Set
Many of the best dealers are also collectors. I think they each reconcile competing with clients in a different way. Some focus on other series, some a box of 20, some just compete. All are good with me. Dealer collection cast offs are the best coins to go after aggressively!
Latin American Collection