I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
@keets said:
I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
I think you knew exactly what kind of response their would be. This is slightly above trolling for an obvious, intended outcome.
@keets said:
I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
Many posters know him. I believe he participated here at one point before Laura hurled unsubstantiated and potentially libelous statements at him.
@keets said:
I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
@keets said:
I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
The problem with deficits in grading skills is even worse where investors are concerned. I have met quite a few younger dealers who didn't have decent grading skills either---they just pushed slabs.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I guess I lack confidence then. There’s no way I would ever consider spending $6500 based on a TV despite how beautiful it looks without expert representation (not the seller) or CAC.
No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin, based on a TV alone (or any other set of images). Third-party grading (including CAC) enables internet numismatic sales to be what they are today.
I do not consider a purchase completed until I have the item in hand, and agree with the evaluation/dealer's representation. I refuse to buy a coin on a no-return basis, even if the price extended is low. I have routinely purchased lots of raw coins. going back 5 decades, including 4- and 5-figure ones. However, there are no guarantees- a buyer can get burned when buying raw or certified coins. Certification just reduces risk, it doesn't totally eliminate it.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I don't understand how CAC is "harmful to the market." Makes no sense. I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
I suppose the point would be why do you need CAC to accomplish that sale?? can't the coins "speak for themselves" to a knowledgeable buyer??
No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin, based on a TV alone (or any other set of images). Third-party grading (including CAC) enables internet numismatic sales to be what they are today.
this is true to a point, but I don't understand why that CAC makes it OK or why so many have decided it does. the better side of Wisdom is that "No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin without having a chance to view it in-hand" before buying it.
It was NOT long ago that our lovely host had the same negative opinion of CAC. Doesn't anyone recall that? It wasn't long ago.
I don't remember PCGS having an "opinion" about CAC(though they may have expressed it and I didn't see) and I don't know that, if they did, they changed it.
One of the main selling points CAC principals put forth was that CAC beans would enable dealers to buy/sell coins on a sight-unseen basis. In other words, reduce a business risk. A secondary goal was to identify 'A' coins within a group having the same nominal grade. This, in itself, created a bifurcated market regarding coins already slabbed. The real problem is that most end-buyers (i.e., collectors) don't do as much homework as they should and frequently don't really understand what they are buying.
I absolutely agree that a piece must be viewed in hand and accepted by the buyer before a transaction is really complete.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?
Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?
No, but CAC has by no means put an end to that. Getting a full grade bump increases the value of a coin more than a sticker does 99.9% of the time.
Curious if anyone here has made it a practice to acquire CAC stickered coins and then break them out and submit to 3rd party grading services to see if they get grade bumps?
@ms71 said:
"Harmful to the health of the market" - didn't we hear that from some when the TPGs emerged?
Are grade inflation and faux plastic rarities/registry game healthy for the long term growth and stability of our hobby?
No, but CAC has by no means put an end to that. Getting a full grade bump increases the value of a coin more than a sticker does 99.9% of the time.
Curious if anyone here has made it a practice to acquire CAC stickered coins and then break them out and submit to 3rd party grading services to see if they get grade bumps?
Could be a winning strategy.
I'm sure it's been done by many folks, but you'd better know what you're doing, as it's high risk. A safer strategy would be to submit for Reconsideration or Regrade, thus eliminating the downside.
@1northcoin said:
Curious if anyone here has made it a practice to acquire coins and then break them out and submit to 3rd party grading services to see if they get grade bumps?
Could be a winning strategy.
There, I fixed it for you, my changes in itallics.
If there’s a $ to be made through arbitrage, someone is already doing it.
@1northcoin said:
Curious if anyone here has made it a practice to acquire coins and then break them out and submit to 3rd party grading services to see if they get grade bumps?
Could be a winning strategy.
There, I fixed it for you, my changes in itallics.
If there’s a $ to be made through arbitrage, someone is already doing it.
Cracking out coins isn't really arbitrage, strictly speaking.
Since the asset is a commodity (coin), which may have different prices in varying situations (depending on whether it is raw, in NGC plastic, in PCGS plastic, with added cowbells), this type of game is certainly a form of arbitrage.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
@keets said:
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
Gee, this is the EXACT sentiment we heard over and over and over again in 1986 when TPG’s started. With that said, does @keets still only buy raw coins? A TON of money can be saved if you have “confidence in your ability to assess a coin” without a need at point of sale to be made whole that you need help? I suspect you’ve chosen to buy more than a few slabbed coins due their expertise in authentication and their professional opinion of its grade. Please don’t try to belittle those that choose to use opinions of experts in their coin purchases. Let’s get along.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@keets said:
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
Gee, this is the EXACT sentiment we heard over and over and over again in 1986 when TPG’s started. With that said, does @keets still only buy raw coins? A TON of money can be saved if you have “confidence in your ability to assess a coin” without a need at point of sale to be made whole that you need help? I suspect you’ve chosen to buy more than a few slabbed coins due their expertise in authentication and their professional opinion of its grade. Please don’t try to belittle those that choose to use opinions of experts in their coin purchases. Let’s get along.
@amwldcoin said:
Does CAC pay you to preach for them?
No, they don’t. I just look at the facts of today’s market with growing CAC acceptance, with price differentials having grown, with PCGS now having PCGS/CAC composite Registry sets, with Heritage and other firms showing CAC retail pricing guide values in their lot descriptions, with me (and apparently more than a few other collectors) appreciating the understanding that it will be easier to sell a CAC coin at fair value, caring enough about my heirs to give them a better chance of them receiving fair value when they sell my coins, etc.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@keets said: One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
CAC is not a grading service. Ask CAC and it will tell you the same.
Many collectors simply do not have routine access to coins. Without this, even once-proficient collectors will see their grading skills erode. This makes finalizing coin transactions more difficult, because there will likely be greater disagreements concerning grade (and thus price) between buyers and sellers. When I was young, many B&M dealers took advantage of the situation by buying a coin at grade X and then selling it later at a higher grade increment. Slabs largely stopped this game.
Just think of third-party authentication as a form of risk management, insurance if you like. The analogy is not perfect, but close enough. Anyone who accepts that various forms of insurance have value (health, home. vehicle, business, etc.) should have no trouble adapting this to the purchase of collectibles like coins. I continue to buy both raw and slabbed coins, but do not see a serious downside to collectors sticking to professionally graded coins.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Please don’t try to belittle those that choose to use opinions of experts in their coin purchases. Let’s get along.
I'm reminded of a saying which pertains to glass houses, but I digress.
to answer a question, keets does buy raw and slabbed. I am not afraid and have made some major scores and several mistakes, it goes with the territory. on the plus side I have bought raw coins for $5 that sold for $2,000, slabbed coins for several hundred that I've lost money on and everything in between. I have bought at the bottom and sold at the top, bought at the top and sold at the bottom, winning and losing at both ends. sometimes it was due to the market and prices moving and sometimes it was because I made a mistake. again, it goes with the territory.
anyone who says their experiences are different is doubted by me.
I can say this --- since I returned in the late 1990's I have learned more than I ever thought conceivable. I am not afraid of an un-holdered coin or medal. I have had a couple of sell-offs and feel confident that I am on the plus side of the ledger with all I still own. what I own today, all that is encapsulated and important to me, probably half was bought raw and submitted for encapsulation. also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered.
@mr1874 said:
I don't understand how CAC is "harmful to the market." Makes no sense. I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
Yes, I fully agree. And TPG’s hurt the market for raw coins that get “Detailed”, and raw coins that were being sold as overgraded, and helped the market for raw coins that get straight graded, and accurately graded raw coins that get slabbed.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@MrEureka said:
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
The intent, bluntly espoused by several high-end dealers (and one 'dealeress'), was to put distance between A coins and B/C ones. They succeeded, after years of complaining that low-end coins were dragging down the prices of choice ones. In some cases, one might wonder if CAC saved their business models.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@keets said:
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
One issue is all the doctors out there. Doctors are full-time professionals and you need full-time professionals to combat them. Most collectors aren't full-time professionals when it comes to identifying doctored coins so having some on your side is a plus.
@amwldcoin said:
Does CAC pay you to preach for them?
No, they don’t. I just look at the facts of today’s market with growing CAC acceptance, with price differentials having grown, with PCGS now having PCGS/CAC composite Registry sets, with Heritage and other firms showing CAC retail pricing guide values in their lot descriptions, with me (and apparently more than a few other collectors) appreciating the understanding that it will be easier to sell a CAC coin at fair value, caring enough about my heirs to give them a better chance of them receiving fair value when they sell my coins, etc.
@MrEureka said:
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
The intent, bluntly espoused by several high-end dealers (and one 'dealeress'), was to put distance between A coins and B/C ones. They succeeded, after years of complaining that low-end coins were dragging down the prices of choice ones. In some cases, one might wonder if CAC saved their business models.
Isn't it to put distance between A/B coins and C ones?
If a dealer's model was focusing on A/B coins and not C coins, I can see the service helping. Otherwise, there would be no way to distinguish.
@keets said: One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
CAC is not a grading service. Ask CAC and it will tell you the same.
@amwldcoin said:
That deserves the biggest LOL that could be given! If CAC is not a grading service then how can they grade a grading services opinion???
@keets said: One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
CAC is not a grading service. Ask CAC and it will tell you the same.
A true grading service must opine on all gradeable coins when queried and not merely those that are solid or high end for the grade. Per CAC even accurately and appropriately graded coins can fail CAC.
There is no CAC guarantee. CAC has no obligation to you for any reason including making purchase offers.
TPG services historically don’t purchase and sell coins they grade.
CAC is a wholesale coin market maker. It stickers coins that it would purchase at the assigned grade level. If it stickers, JA will buy it out of custom but he is not obligated to do so. The rest is noise, and yes, some people try to use CAC as a grading service even though it isn’t.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
Since the asset is a commodity (coin), which may have different prices in varying situations (depending on whether it is raw, in NGC plastic, in PCGS plastic, with added cowbells), this type of game is certainly a form of arbitrage.
Not to get too far OT, but arbitrage involves exploiting (usually simultaneous) price differences for the same commodity in different markets. A coin in a different holder is not the same commodity. Also, arbitrage is typically riskless (or nearly), which cannot be said for cracking coins out.
@amwldcoin said:
That deserves the biggest LOL that could be given! If CAC is not a grading service then how can they grade a grading services opinion???
@keets said: One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
CAC is not a grading service. Ask CAC and it will tell you the same.
1. A true grading service must opine on all gradeable coins when queried and not merely those that are solid or high end for the grade. Per CAC even accurately and appropriately graded coins can fail CAC.
2. There is no CAC guarantee. CAC has no obligation to you for any reason including making purchase offers.
3. TPG services historically don’t purchase and sell coins they grade.
CAC is a wholesale coin market maker. It stickers coins that it would purchase at the assigned grade level. If it stickers, JA will buy it out of custom but he is not obligated to do so. The rest is noise, and yes, some people try to use CAC as a grading service even though it isn’t.
Grade means "to evaluate or rank" like teachers who grade their students. although CAC, you and others may not want to accept them as a "Grading Service" that is what they do. it is similar to the argument a first time submitter will have when PCGS body-bags a coin and charges for the grading service.
yes, they graded the coin to assess it as cleaned, etc.
Grade means "to evaluate or rank" like teachers who grade their students. although CAC, you and others may not want to accept them as a "Grading Service" that is what they do. it is similar to the argument a first time submitter will have when PCGS body-bags a coin and charges for the grading service.
yes, they graded the coin to assess it as cleaned, etc.
Only if you define "ranking" as making a binary decision to throw every coin into one bin or the other. (I realize the occasional gold sticker is an exception to that paradigm.) This, along with a lack of transparency about what disqualifies a coin from stickering, are my biggest gripes with CAC. Still, I've come around to accepting their presence in the marketplace and trying to use it to my advantage.
I sure hope he offers his clients an excellent buy back on the coins he sells as they will struggle to recoup their funds with PQ pricing and no chance in CAC hell they sticker.
Learn how to grade conservatively. If collectors and dealers really knew how to grade they would not have to be worried about second and third party opinions. Unfortunately, the current "market" is built around slabs and stickers because buyers and sellers make or lose money depending on what the slabs and stickers indicate.
@mr1874 said:
I don't understand how CAC is "harmful to the market." Makes no sense. I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
No. It should read that CAC hurt the market for all coins that were never submitted. When CAC started, I had several hundred very nice slabbed coins that became second class citizens over night because they didn't have stickers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Surprise surprise. Another CAC bashing thread (including the collectors who value their services), good for at least 100 posts. So @keets did you achieve your thread intent? You opened the door for yourself to vent your hostility in my view.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@PerryHall said:
No. It should read that CAC hurt the market for all coins that were never submitted. When CAC started, I had several hundred very nice slabbed coins that became second class citizens over night because they didn't have stickers.
Became second class citizens to whom? Surely not to you. After all, they were the same very nice slabbed coins.
I bet the same thing happened to people who owned very nice raw coins when the TPGs stood up.
It seems other people's opinions of our coins do matter, after all.
You opened the door for yourself to vent your hostility in my view.
you are allowed to have your view, even when it's misguidedly wrong. ain't America a great place??
this actually isn't a CAC bashing thread, it's more a "coin that doesn't have a CAC sticker" bashing thread. it took exactly five replies before mention of coins without stickers. but to your point, why would something against CAC get you butt-hurt?? go re-read the OP if you're confused, threads take on their own life no matter how they start.
@PerryHall said:
No. It should read that CAC hurt the market for all coins that were never submitted. When CAC started, I had several hundred very nice slabbed coins that became second class citizens over night because they didn't have stickers.
Became second class citizens to whom? Surely not to you. After all, they were the same very nice slabbed coins.
I bet the same thing happened to people who owned very nice raw coins when the TPGs stood up.
It seems other people's opinions of our coins do matter, after all.
Second class in the eyes of many collectors and dealers who worship at the CAC alter. I have quite a few coins in the original ANACS small slabs that CAC won't even look at.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
I'm quite surprised by this thread and how smart everybody is, many tending to know everything there is to know about this dealer and how he thinks and not being afraid to tell us.
how enlightening.
it also occurs to me and surprises me that members lack so much confidence in their ability to assess a coin and in their need at point of sale to be made whole that they need help.
I think you knew exactly what kind of response their would be. This is slightly above trolling for an obvious, intended outcome.
Many posters know him. I believe he participated here at one point before Laura hurled unsubstantiated and potentially libelous statements at him.
It seems that you're easily surprised today!
The problem with deficits in grading skills is even worse where investors are concerned. I have met quite a few younger dealers who didn't have decent grading skills either---they just pushed slabs.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I guess I lack confidence then. There’s no way I would ever consider spending $6500 based on a TV despite how beautiful it looks without expert representation (not the seller) or CAC.
No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin, based on a TV alone (or any other set of images). Third-party grading (including CAC) enables internet numismatic sales to be what they are today.
I do not consider a purchase completed until I have the item in hand, and agree with the evaluation/dealer's representation. I refuse to buy a coin on a no-return basis, even if the price extended is low. I have routinely purchased lots of raw coins. going back 5 decades, including 4- and 5-figure ones. However, there are no guarantees- a buyer can get burned when buying raw or certified coins. Certification just reduces risk, it doesn't totally eliminate it.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wow what a hot topic.
I don't understand how CAC is "harmful to the market." Makes no sense. I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
It was NOT long ago that our lovely host had the same negative opinion of CAC. Doesn't anyone recall that? It wasn't long ago.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I have two CAC certified coins and they are both gorgeous pieces. If I was so inclined, I could sell them in a heartbeat.
I suppose the point would be why do you need CAC to accomplish that sale?? can't the coins "speak for themselves" to a knowledgeable buyer??
No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin, based on a TV alone (or any other set of images). Third-party grading (including CAC) enables internet numismatic sales to be what they are today.
this is true to a point, but I don't understand why that CAC makes it OK or why so many have decided it does. the better side of Wisdom is that "No one should feel confident about spending 4 or more figures for a coin without having a chance to view it in-hand" before buying it.
It was NOT long ago that our lovely host had the same negative opinion of CAC. Doesn't anyone recall that? It wasn't long ago.
I don't remember PCGS having an "opinion" about CAC(though they may have expressed it and I didn't see) and I don't know that, if they did, they changed it.
One of the main selling points CAC principals put forth was that CAC beans would enable dealers to buy/sell coins on a sight-unseen basis. In other words, reduce a business risk. A secondary goal was to identify 'A' coins within a group having the same nominal grade. This, in itself, created a bifurcated market regarding coins already slabbed. The real problem is that most end-buyers (i.e., collectors) don't do as much homework as they should and frequently don't really understand what they are buying.
I absolutely agree that a piece must be viewed in hand and accepted by the buyer before a transaction is really complete.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Curious if anyone here has made it a practice to acquire CAC stickered coins and then break them out and submit to 3rd party grading services to see if they get grade bumps?
Could be a winning strategy.
I'm sure it's been done by many folks, but you'd better know what you're doing, as it's high risk. A safer strategy would be to submit for Reconsideration or Regrade, thus eliminating the downside.
There, I fixed it for you, my changes in itallics.
If there’s a $ to be made through arbitrage, someone is already doing it.
Cracking out coins isn't really arbitrage, strictly speaking.
Since the asset is a commodity (coin), which may have different prices in varying situations (depending on whether it is raw, in NGC plastic, in PCGS plastic, with added cowbells), this type of game is certainly a form of arbitrage.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
One of the main selling points CAC principals..........................
initially, this was the strategy with the formation of PCGS, sight un-seen trading along with counterfeit and "problem" detection. the way I interpret that is that PCGS graded the "A" coins. now things have changed with CAC taking that model and using it again. most of the things, positive and negative, said about CAC today were said about TPG's 30 years ago. I think people who entered the coin market in the 1990's learned from that and grew. what I hear now is that some of those people and some newcomers need to learn again.
I was one of the 1990's crop of new collectors, returning to the Hobby after a long hiatus. I learned a lot at this site --- BUT --- I made a decision to learn more at shops and shows. I looked at a lot of coins in holders and tried to acquaint myself with how the Hobby had changed.
I don't see what CAC is doing as a change. a collector still needs to learn basic stuff and being able to read "CAC" on a slab's green sticker doesn't seem like much education. I see enough coins with them that I don't care for and enough coins without them that are choice. the sticker doesn't make my decision, either its absence or its presence.
Gee, this is the EXACT sentiment we heard over and over and over again in 1986 when TPG’s started. With that said, does @keets still only buy raw coins? A TON of money can be saved if you have “confidence in your ability to assess a coin” without a need at point of sale to be made whole that you need help? I suspect you’ve chosen to buy more than a few slabbed coins due their expertise in authentication and their professional opinion of its grade. Please don’t try to belittle those that choose to use opinions of experts in their coin purchases. Let’s get along.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Does CAC pay you to preach for them?
No, they don’t. I just look at the facts of today’s market with growing CAC acceptance, with price differentials having grown, with PCGS now having PCGS/CAC composite Registry sets, with Heritage and other firms showing CAC retail pricing guide values in their lot descriptions, with me (and apparently more than a few other collectors) appreciating the understanding that it will be easier to sell a CAC coin at fair value, caring enough about my heirs to give them a better chance of them receiving fair value when they sell my coins, etc.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
CAC is not a grading service. Ask CAC and it will tell you the same.
Many collectors simply do not have routine access to coins. Without this, even once-proficient collectors will see their grading skills erode. This makes finalizing coin transactions more difficult, because there will likely be greater disagreements concerning grade (and thus price) between buyers and sellers. When I was young, many B&M dealers took advantage of the situation by buying a coin at grade X and then selling it later at a higher grade increment. Slabs largely stopped this game.
Just think of third-party authentication as a form of risk management, insurance if you like. The analogy is not perfect, but close enough. Anyone who accepts that various forms of insurance have value (health, home. vehicle, business, etc.) should have no trouble adapting this to the purchase of collectibles like coins. I continue to buy both raw and slabbed coins, but do not see a serious downside to collectors sticking to professionally graded coins.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Please don’t try to belittle those that choose to use opinions of experts in their coin purchases. Let’s get along.
I'm reminded of a saying which pertains to glass houses, but I digress.
to answer a question, keets does buy raw and slabbed. I am not afraid and have made some major scores and several mistakes, it goes with the territory. on the plus side I have bought raw coins for $5 that sold for $2,000, slabbed coins for several hundred that I've lost money on and everything in between. I have bought at the bottom and sold at the top, bought at the top and sold at the bottom, winning and losing at both ends. sometimes it was due to the market and prices moving and sometimes it was because I made a mistake. again, it goes with the territory.
anyone who says their experiences are different is doubted by me.
I can say this --- since I returned in the late 1990's I have learned more than I ever thought conceivable. I am not afraid of an un-holdered coin or medal. I have had a couple of sell-offs and feel confident that I am on the plus side of the ledger with all I still own. what I own today, all that is encapsulated and important to me, probably half was bought raw and submitted for encapsulation. also a CAC "dislaimer" of my own, although I have several slabs with CAC stickers, the sticker didn't influence the purchase. if it's there it's there. finally, I submitted a group of eight coins for the sticker and they all stickered.
any other questions, ask away, baby!!
CAC hurt the market for coins that didn’t bean and helped the market for those that did.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yes, I fully agree. And TPG’s hurt the market for raw coins that get “Detailed”, and raw coins that were being sold as overgraded, and helped the market for raw coins that get straight graded, and accurately graded raw coins that get slabbed.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
More likely, Larry is thinking that CAC is biased against blue copper. Probably true, but maybe a justifiable bias.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The intent, bluntly espoused by several high-end dealers (and one 'dealeress'), was to put distance between A coins and B/C ones. They succeeded, after years of complaining that low-end coins were dragging down the prices of choice ones. In some cases, one might wonder if CAC saved their business models.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
One issue is all the doctors out there. Doctors are full-time professionals and you need full-time professionals to combat them. Most collectors aren't full-time professionals when it comes to identifying doctored coins so having some on your side is a plus.
My success as a dealer has not been from salesmanship...it has been from buying nice coins. Nice coins sell themselves without any help!
Isn't it to put distance between A/B coins and C ones?
If a dealer's model was focusing on A/B coins and not C coins, I can see the service helping. Otherwise, there would be no way to distinguish.
That deserves the biggest LOL that could be given! If CAC is not a grading service then how can they grade a grading service's opinion???
CAC is a wholesale coin market maker. It stickers coins that it would purchase at the assigned grade level. If it stickers, JA will buy it out of custom but he is not obligated to do so. The rest is noise, and yes, some people try to use CAC as a grading service even though it isn’t.
Not to get too far OT, but arbitrage involves exploiting (usually simultaneous) price differences for the same commodity in different markets. A coin in a different holder is not the same commodity. Also, arbitrage is typically riskless (or nearly), which cannot be said for cracking coins out.
On the coins that matter to me...CAC pays quite a bit less than I am willing to pay...so, what's the point for me?
CAC is not a grading service.
Grade means "to evaluate or rank" like teachers who grade their students. although CAC, you and others may not want to accept them as a "Grading Service" that is what they do. it is similar to the argument a first time submitter will have when PCGS body-bags a coin and charges for the grading service.
yes, they graded the coin to assess it as cleaned, etc.
On the coins that matter to me...CAC pays quite a bit less than I am willing to pay...so, what's the point for me?
yeah, they won't even consider most of what I collect.
Whether CAC are, or are not, a grading service depends on the definition one chooses.
They certainly are not a grading service in the traditional sense and I think that is the distinction that CAC is making when they write:
For those that chose to call CAC a grading service, what would you call PCGS to distinguish them, or would you not distinguish them?
And THAT sounds (reads ?) like one of the usual defenses OF the service when a hot and heavy thread gets going.
Only if you define "ranking" as making a binary decision to throw every coin into one bin or the other. (I realize the occasional gold sticker is an exception to that paradigm.) This, along with a lack of transparency about what disqualifies a coin from stickering, are my biggest gripes with CAC. Still, I've come around to accepting their presence in the marketplace and trying to use it to my advantage.
I sure hope he offers his clients an excellent buy back on the coins he sells as they will struggle to recoup their funds with PQ pricing and no chance in CAC hell they sticker.
Latin American Collection
Learn how to grade conservatively. If collectors and dealers really knew how to grade they would not have to be worried about second and third party opinions. Unfortunately, the current "market" is built around slabs and stickers because buyers and sellers make or lose money depending on what the slabs and stickers indicate.
No. It should read that CAC hurt the market for all coins that were never submitted. When CAC started, I had several hundred very nice slabbed coins that became second class citizens over night because they didn't have stickers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Neither the disclaimer nor the dealer's opinion about CAC matter to me.
Why do they matter to you?
@keets I'll keep enjoying my So-Called Dollars, medals and tokens
Surprise surprise. Another CAC bashing thread (including the collectors who value their services), good for at least 100 posts. So @keets did you achieve your thread intent? You opened the door for yourself to vent your hostility in my view.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Became second class citizens to whom? Surely not to you. After all, they were the same very nice slabbed coins.
I bet the same thing happened to people who owned very nice raw coins when the TPGs stood up.
It seems other people's opinions of our coins do matter, after all.
LOL! They are grading another service's grade so they are a grading service.
You opened the door for yourself to vent your hostility in my view.
you are allowed to have your view, even when it's misguidedly wrong. ain't America a great place??
this actually isn't a CAC bashing thread, it's more a "coin that doesn't have a CAC sticker" bashing thread. it took exactly five replies before mention of coins without stickers. but to your point, why would something against CAC get you butt-hurt?? go re-read the OP if you're confused, threads take on their own life no matter how they start.
Second class in the eyes of many collectors and dealers who worship at the CAC alter. I have quite a few coins in the original ANACS small slabs that CAC won't even look at.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire