The Net54 boards really seem to have a hatred towards everything PSA which I don't really get. From seeing first hand everything that can be done to a comic book in regards to conservation, alteration and all things in between I am not at all shocked that some of those things are also done to sports cards and the likes. If an item is paper things can be done to it and there are a few different things that can be done that are impossible to detect.
PSA is gonna have to handle this in a fashion that is similar to what CGC had to do with the micro-trimming Ewert scandal and go after those folks who have used and abused their relationship with PSA all these years.
I think it is pure bull **** for most of what is being said on the Net54 boards towards PSA and how they act like PSA is as guilty as PWCC and Moser are in regards to what is currently going on.
PSA just like CGC is going to do whatever it takes to protect the company and the customers from liars and cheaters but cons are always gonna angle shoot for the next way to make a quick buck and any collectibles will always be a target of cons.
Hell I hope PSA/ Collector's Universe goes after PWCC, Moser and any of the other trimmers/scammers in court. Straight up burn these con men to the ground in court.
@PADIdiver said:
Does anyone know if there's a federal investigation related to this case?
I saw a tweet that showed through website Analytics (which tracks visitors to a site) they could see someone from the FBI and other interested parties were visiting their site that discussed the this issue...
Now that we have a statement from PSA regarding the fact that they’re aware of the problems we as collectors and customers of PSA and it’s products are currently experiencing, when should we expect an update on the progress of the private investigation?
Suffice it to say, I believe it is this very private nature of the entire situation that is what many collectors are finding most difficult to process.
PSA is and will continue to be the most important entity in the card collecting world (save, obviously, the manufacturers of cards) and I think I can safely speak for EVERYONE when I say the following:
We are looking to you, PSA, to now deal with the more difficult aspects of leadership after decades of enjoying the benefits of said status. We need you step in here and protect the greatest number of collectors at the expense of collectors who generate the greatest numbers. As the great Abraham Lincoln once penned in a letter during the Civil War, “By general law life and limb must be protected; yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life; but a life is never wisely given to save a limb.”
Please remember the great number of us who have put our faith and trust in your brand above all others over the years. Keep us informed as best as you can, when you can.
Thank you.
*Todd, I directed this to you only because you are the guy interacting with us; you are and continue to be quite impressive at handling us with tact, fairness and honesty. I would be remiss if I did not both acknowledge and thank you for this. Nice work on your part - please keep it up.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Thank you for the kind words. This situation is rightfully of importance to everyone in this hobby. I don't know what the latest thoughts or plans may be at the office, but I believe in Steve Sloan as a person and I know that he is giving this the utmost attention and focus. Keep in mind that this appears to be a multi-layered situation and as such cannot be solved overnight or with a single statement.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@AFLfan said:
Thank you for the kind words. This situation is rightfully of importance to everyone in this hobby. I don't know what the latest thoughts or plans may be at the office, but I believe in Steve Sloan as a person and I know that he is giving this the utmost attention and focus. Keep in mind that this appears to be a multi-layered situation and as such cannot be solved overnight or with a single statement.
I have previously echoed this exact sentiment with the addition that, for me, privately is the only way to properly handle an investigation with the publishing of those findings of equal import to their discovery. The investigators, of course, must be of impeccable credibility and the guilty parties must be exposed and punished in order for justice to be done, though, otherwise...
...well, let’s hope we don’t even need to worry about what comes after otherwise.
By the way, I checked out the lacrosse card website. Impressive stuff. Really. That’s a lot of work. Labors of love produce the best work...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I know in the past PSA has slabbed cards with a special flip when the packs were opened in their presence or if they were part of a major find.
If provenance becomes a bigger deal, maybe PSA could expand that service. They already authenticate vintage packs. If submitters opened the packs and submitted the cards in PSA's presence, or in front of a camera PSA set up, they could receive a special flip (like a black label, but not due to an imperceptible difference in condition). Thinking this could happen in a room at a convention center and/or at PSA's facilities.
I think vintage packs (pre-1980?) would need to be authenticated first for that to work.
@brendanb438 said:
The Net54 boards really seem to have a hatred towards everything PSA which I don't really get. From seeing first hand everything that can be done to a comic book in regards to conservation, alteration and all things in between I am not at all shocked that some of those things are also done to sports cards and the likes. If an item is paper things can be done to it and there are a few different things that can be done that are impossible to detect.
PSA is gonna have to handle this in a fashion that is similar to what CGC had to do with the micro-trimming Ewert scandal and go after those folks who have used and abused their relationship with PSA all these years.
I think it is pure bull **** for most of what is being said on the Net54 boards towards PSA and how they act like PSA is as guilty as PWCC and Moser are in regards to what is currently going on.
PSA just like CGC is going to do whatever it takes to protect the company and the customers from liars and cheaters but cons are always gonna angle shoot for the next way to make a quick buck and any collectibles will always be a target of cons.
Hell I hope PSA/ Collector's Universe goes after PWCC, Moser and any of the other trimmers/scammers in court. Straight up burn these con men to the ground in court.
I appreciate your mentioning the Ewert microtrimming scandal at CGC Brendan, since that couldn't be more akin to the current situation. As far as pressing a card (like a comic) I have no problem with it IF done in such a way that the card itself is not harmed. Pressing flattens but it cannot create or build up cardboard; it won't fix a tear, but it will flatten a torn-up looking corner; it doesn't color touch or add solvents, it doesn't remove a sliver of cardboard to make the corners appear sharper. Why it's come to be accepted as standard practice for comics is nothing is added or removed. Think of it as taking a dog ear corner on the page of a book and bending it the other way so that it returns to its original position.
Microtrimming, whether comics or cards, is an entirely different animal. CGC after investigating the microtrim techniques stated they now know what to look for; in the ensuing 14 years it hasn't been raised as an issue any longer, and the same watchdog hobbyists who first brought it to light would note if it did. The rub is in how carefully cards are examined under magnification, and with black lights, etc. -- at a glance, most all the exposed trim jobs would not be noticeable at a glance (without before and after scans.) But under strong magnification, whether the new trimmed edge replicated a rough cut or not -- comparing the newly-trimmed example to a same stock/similar, but known to be good example, should reveal telltale differences.
Being able to do this, and assure collectors it is being done, is essential in my view to restore trust in the product. As with comics (and to those who say cards are different than comics, really they aren't -- it's all paper) the graders at CGC plainly state that "they only grade the book as it sits in front of them." So whether a comic has been pressed or not won't matter, if the pressing has been done correctly, it is impossible to tell. But a bad press will result in a crushed spine, impacted staples, etc. -- that will be downgraded for. And if trimming is detected (the microtrimming scandal of 2005 noted above) or there is color touch, glue, solvent cleaning, etc., the book will be flagged as restored (and not nearly as desirable as an unrestored example.)
To those at PSA working on this issue, I wish you luck in resolving it to MOST people's satisfaction -- it is essential for the trust/stability of card market at large. Towards that end, I'm not sure if professional courtesy (for the good of the market as a whole) will allow it, but you might reach out to Steve Borock, currently at CBCS (a competitor to CGC in grading comics) who was president of CGC during the time they uncovered the microtrimming by Jason Ewert.
If people think conspiracy theories abound at the Blowout forums (and it IS there, as well as well-reasoned concern and great detective work by people who truly care about honest dealings) that's nothing compared to comic board people and what they were saying about CGC at the time. Some of them (super-cranks) still hold a grudge. But CGC stood up to the scrutiny, and continues its strong market position to the current day.
Some caveats to reaching out to Steve B -- CGC is part of the same group as NGC, so not sure if competitors really talk shop in great detail. Professional courtesy is one thing, and protecting trade secrets is another. Even though Steve is no longer at CGC, CBCS (which he helped found after spending an appropriate non-compete length of time away from CGC) was recently purchased by and now is a subsidiary of Beckett -- so there again is a competitor situation.
All that aside, I think for the the good of an honest market and trust in the market as a whole, competitor or no, it would be good for the PSA folks working behind the scenes to reach out to Steve Borock. If it's possible for him to help or to give advice on how they went about detecting the microtrimming when at CGC, and how they dealt with fallout while cleaning up the situation, I think he will. https://www.cbcscomics.com/about
After reading up on this, my tin foil hat is pulled tight over my head. I saw the Moser's ID was whitman111. About two years ago I had a 1952 Bowman Large Gifford PSA 7.5 listed on ebay. Whitman111 sent me multiple message trying to lowball buy the card. I replied once and never replied again. I decided to list on PWCC instead later and took a bath on it. It was well-centered and graded before the lighthouse label.
I went to my PWCC account to see when I listed it. I wanted to see if I listed after the "HE sticker" stuff started because IMHO it should have been HE. I bought it from a fellow board member that has an excellent eye for high quality. Now I can't find any detail on my submission or use the archived search tool.
It could be that they changed the site and I don't know what I'm doing, or if I was played. I wanted to do an archive search to see if PWCC sold another 1952 Bowman Large Gifford at PSA 8 or higher.
EDIT: This whole scam makes me wonder if PWCC knew more about the "buying group" than they are letting on. Let me adjust the tin foil hat a little more.
Since the screen-cap above is of the message that is from Sports Card Radio’s twitter feed and site owners can pretty easily ascertain the identity of whomever visits their websites, I’m guessing the disclosure that both FBI and eBay accounts have logged on to read their postings is a disclosure that, once they discovered, they were all too happy to broadcast.
If true, it’s certainly an interesting development.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Since the screen-cap above is of the message that is from Sports Card Radio’s twitter feed and site owners can pretty easily ascertain the identity of whomever visits their websites, I’m guessing the disclosure that both FBI and eBay accounts have logged on to read their postings is a disclosure that, once they discovered, they were all too happy to broadcast.
If true, it’s certainly an interesting development.
It probably is true. Colin and Ryan do like to toot their own horn.
Since the screen-cap above is of the message that is from Sports Card Radio’s twitter feed and site owners can pretty easily ascertain the identity of whomever visits their websites, I’m guessing the disclosure that both FBI and eBay accounts have logged on to read their postings is a disclosure that, once they discovered, they were all too happy to broadcast.
If true, it’s certainly an interesting development.
It probably is true. Colin and Ryan do like to toot their own horn.
My mom always said if you do that too much, you’ll go blind.
Since the screen-cap above is of the message that is from Sports Card Radio’s twitter feed and site owners can pretty easily ascertain the identity of whomever visits their websites, I’m guessing the disclosure that both FBI and eBay accounts have logged on to read their postings is a disclosure that, once they discovered, they were all too happy to broadcast.
If true, it’s certainly an interesting development.
It probably is true. Colin and Ryan do like to toot their own horn.
My mom always said if you do that too much, you’ll go blind.
@Rttrffg2012 said:
I’ve been reading all the boards and following the issue.
I will add something that no one has mentioned:
If you sold cards with pwcc in May (before the big bomb dropped on Saturday), you are owed money.
Pwcc usually sends out checks the first 10 days of the new month.
I am owed thousands from pwcc....
If the feds are investigating, they may seize assets abruptly.
I am worried about receiving my funds, and I am worried about the check cashing.
Anyone else feeling this anxiety?
No. You know how slowly the government works? You know how unlikely an indictment is?
If you want to hedge, I'd be willing to guarantee your payment for a small markup. PM me to discuss.
@Rttrffg2012 said:
I’ve been reading all the boards and following the issue.
I will add something that no one has mentioned:
If you sold cards with pwcc in May (before the big bomb dropped on Saturday), you are owed money.
Pwcc usually sends out checks the first 10 days of the new month.
I am owed thousands from pwcc....
If the feds are investigating, they may seize assets abruptly.
I am worried about receiving my funds, and I am worried about the check cashing.
Anyone else feeling this anxiety?
No. You know how slowly the government works? You know how unlikely an indictment is?
If you want to hedge, I'd be willing to guarantee your payment for a small markup. PM me to discuss.
What about if someone had submitted for an auction next month?
@Rttrffg2012 said:
I’ve been reading all the boards and following the issue.
I will add something that no one has mentioned:
If you sold cards with pwcc in May (before the big bomb dropped on Saturday), you are owed money.
Pwcc usually sends out checks the first 10 days of the new month.
I am owed thousands from pwcc....
If the feds are investigating, they may seize assets abruptly.
I am worried about receiving my funds, and I am worried about the check cashing.
Anyone else feeling this anxiety?
Yes, I’m there too. Ironically I have cards all boxed and ready to go Oregon for their next auction that are still sitting on my dining room table, glad I procrastinated. I’d be a lot more worried about collecting if I had cards listed in their current auction.
@Rttrffg2012 said:
I’ve been reading all the boards and following the issue.
I will add something that no one has mentioned:
If you sold cards with pwcc in May (before the big bomb dropped on Saturday), you are owed money.
Pwcc usually sends out checks the first 10 days of the new month.
I am owed thousands from pwcc....
If the feds are investigating, they may seize assets abruptly.
I am worried about receiving my funds, and I am worried about the check cashing.
Anyone else feeling this anxiety?
Yes, I’m there too. Ironically I have cards all boxed and ready to go Oregon for their next auction that are still sitting on my dining room table, glad I procrastinated. I’d be a lot more worried about collecting if I had cards listed in their current auction.
Yeah, agreed about wondering. I shipped about 64 items off to PWCC a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the submittal window for the July auction series, and it would be thousands of dollars in sales. I had never consigned any items with them prior to that shipment. After waiting for years, I'm thinking a few more weeks wouldn't have hurt. Now I'm pretty anxious to see how this all plays out.
@Rttrffg2012 said:
I’ve been reading all the boards and following the issue.
I will add something that no one has mentioned:
If you sold cards with pwcc in May (before the big bomb dropped on Saturday), you are owed money.
Pwcc usually sends out checks the first 10 days of the new month.
I am owed thousands from pwcc....
If the feds are investigating, they may seize assets abruptly.
I am worried about receiving my funds, and I am worried about the check cashing.
Anyone else feeling this anxiety?
No. You know how slowly the government works? You know how unlikely an indictment is?
If you want to hedge, I'd be willing to guarantee your payment for a small markup. PM me to discuss.
What about if someone had submitted for an auction next month?
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
Bid retractions are a red flag for shill bidding. It just never ends. PWCC isn't going to ever change.
Speaking of Brent's actions, is it true that he bought cards with his ebay user ID and sent them to Moser to fix, and then had those cards back in his auctions at a later date ? Has that been proven, or is that just conjecture ?
Here's the link to the BO discussion on that topic. Evidence looks pretty damning but not sure it can be considered proof.
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
FWIW,
I've been following Seaver auctions and sales over the past two months and there is some clear market manipulation going on with several sellers. Cards all of a sudden selling for nearly 50% more than that grade has, cards being re-listed within a week of a closed auction/sale, "silent reserve" sales, etc...
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
FWIW,
I've been following Seaver auctions and sales over the past two months and there is some clear market manipulation going on with several sellers. Cards all of a sudden selling for nearly 50% more than that grade has, cards being re-listed within a week of a closed auction/sale, "silent reserve" sales, etc...
According to some people on this board, its because PWCC has better scanners and better customer service
Yeh, and I mean several sellers other than pwcc too. Its likely due to the news about his health, but all of a sudden paying more for cards of a 25-year HOFer just because he has little time left makes no sense(autographs, sure; cards, no).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
Bid retractions are a red flag for shill bidding. It just never ends. PWCC isn't going to ever change.
I have been saying for YEARS that bid retractions should not be allowed.
Retractions are in fact WORSE than shill bids as the can reveal the top bid put in on a given item with no consequence to the retractor. Then the retractor (or friend of retractor) can bid right up to the top bid. A shill bid may or may not work, and certainly would have much less affect if retractions were not allowed.
Ebay allows retractions not pwcc.
If you really want to make things better for the hobby, start closing the gaping retraction loophole.
I have been (mostly buying) on ebay since 1998 and never have retracted a bid.
I also no longer worry about the prices of cards. I decide what I am willing to pay and stop bidding at that amount. This can be hard to do, but it can be done!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I also no longer worry about the prices of cards. I decide what I am willing to pay and stop bidding at that amount. This can be hard to do, but it can be done!
I hear this a lot and I’m not sure what it means. I may be willing to pay $100 for card X, but I shouldn’t have to unless another legit bidder is willing to pay $99.
I also no longer worry about the prices of cards. I decide what I am willing to pay and stop bidding at that amount. This can be hard to do, but it can be done!
I hear this a lot and I’m not sure what it means. I may be willing to pay $100 for card X, but I shouldn’t have to unless another legit bidder is willing to pay $99.
I think he means he has the willpower to stop and not try to win at all costs. At least that is how I took it. I sometimes get the win at all costs feeling, but the cards I'm typically bidding on are pretty cheap to begin with.
@JoeBanzai said:
I also no longer worry about the prices of cards. I decide what I am willing to pay and stop bidding at that amount. This can be hard to do, but it can be done!
I do the same thing. The only difference might be I always wait until the final seconds of the auction and submit my one-and-only bid on the item (and keep my fingers crossed).
Comments
The Net54 boards really seem to have a hatred towards everything PSA which I don't really get. From seeing first hand everything that can be done to a comic book in regards to conservation, alteration and all things in between I am not at all shocked that some of those things are also done to sports cards and the likes. If an item is paper things can be done to it and there are a few different things that can be done that are impossible to detect.
PSA is gonna have to handle this in a fashion that is similar to what CGC had to do with the micro-trimming Ewert scandal and go after those folks who have used and abused their relationship with PSA all these years.
I think it is pure bull **** for most of what is being said on the Net54 boards towards PSA and how they act like PSA is as guilty as PWCC and Moser are in regards to what is currently going on.
PSA just like CGC is going to do whatever it takes to protect the company and the customers from liars and cheaters but cons are always gonna angle shoot for the next way to make a quick buck and any collectibles will always be a target of cons.
Hell I hope PSA/ Collector's Universe goes after PWCC, Moser and any of the other trimmers/scammers in court. Straight up burn these con men to the ground in court.
@brendanb438 I made a little four-star adjustment to your post ;-) Thank you for your post.
Does anyone know if there's a federal investigation related to this case?
I know some on net54 have stated they’ve contacted them.
Kevin
I saw a tweet that showed through website Analytics (which tracks visitors to a site) they could see someone from the FBI and other interested parties were visiting their site that discussed the this issue...
Sorry about that.
@AFLfan
Todd* (and Mr. Sloan and Mr. Orlando),
Now that we have a statement from PSA regarding the fact that they’re aware of the problems we as collectors and customers of PSA and it’s products are currently experiencing, when should we expect an update on the progress of the private investigation?
Suffice it to say, I believe it is this very private nature of the entire situation that is what many collectors are finding most difficult to process.
PSA is and will continue to be the most important entity in the card collecting world (save, obviously, the manufacturers of cards) and I think I can safely speak for EVERYONE when I say the following:
We are looking to you, PSA, to now deal with the more difficult aspects of leadership after decades of enjoying the benefits of said status. We need you step in here and protect the greatest number of collectors at the expense of collectors who generate the greatest numbers. As the great Abraham Lincoln once penned in a letter during the Civil War, “By general law life and limb must be protected; yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life; but a life is never wisely given to save a limb.”
Please remember the great number of us who have put our faith and trust in your brand above all others over the years. Keep us informed as best as you can, when you can.
Thank you.
*Todd, I directed this to you only because you are the guy interacting with us; you are and continue to be quite impressive at handling us with tact, fairness and honesty. I would be remiss if I did not both acknowledge and thank you for this. Nice work on your part - please keep it up.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Thank you for the kind words. This situation is rightfully of importance to everyone in this hobby. I don't know what the latest thoughts or plans may be at the office, but I believe in Steve Sloan as a person and I know that he is giving this the utmost attention and focus. Keep in mind that this appears to be a multi-layered situation and as such cannot be solved overnight or with a single statement.
I have previously echoed this exact sentiment with the addition that, for me, privately is the only way to properly handle an investigation with the publishing of those findings of equal import to their discovery. The investigators, of course, must be of impeccable credibility and the guilty parties must be exposed and punished in order for justice to be done, though, otherwise...
...well, let’s hope we don’t even need to worry about what comes after otherwise.
By the way, I checked out the lacrosse card website. Impressive stuff. Really. That’s a lot of work. Labors of love produce the best work...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I know in the past PSA has slabbed cards with a special flip when the packs were opened in their presence or if they were part of a major find.
If provenance becomes a bigger deal, maybe PSA could expand that service. They already authenticate vintage packs. If submitters opened the packs and submitted the cards in PSA's presence, or in front of a camera PSA set up, they could receive a special flip (like a black label, but not due to an imperceptible difference in condition). Thinking this could happen in a room at a convention center and/or at PSA's facilities.
I think vintage packs (pre-1980?) would need to be authenticated first for that to work.
I appreciate your mentioning the Ewert microtrimming scandal at CGC Brendan, since that couldn't be more akin to the current situation. As far as pressing a card (like a comic) I have no problem with it IF done in such a way that the card itself is not harmed. Pressing flattens but it cannot create or build up cardboard; it won't fix a tear, but it will flatten a torn-up looking corner; it doesn't color touch or add solvents, it doesn't remove a sliver of cardboard to make the corners appear sharper. Why it's come to be accepted as standard practice for comics is nothing is added or removed. Think of it as taking a dog ear corner on the page of a book and bending it the other way so that it returns to its original position.
Microtrimming, whether comics or cards, is an entirely different animal. CGC after investigating the microtrim techniques stated they now know what to look for; in the ensuing 14 years it hasn't been raised as an issue any longer, and the same watchdog hobbyists who first brought it to light would note if it did. The rub is in how carefully cards are examined under magnification, and with black lights, etc. -- at a glance, most all the exposed trim jobs would not be noticeable at a glance (without before and after scans.) But under strong magnification, whether the new trimmed edge replicated a rough cut or not -- comparing the newly-trimmed example to a same stock/similar, but known to be good example, should reveal telltale differences.
Being able to do this, and assure collectors it is being done, is essential in my view to restore trust in the product. As with comics (and to those who say cards are different than comics, really they aren't -- it's all paper) the graders at CGC plainly state that "they only grade the book as it sits in front of them." So whether a comic has been pressed or not won't matter, if the pressing has been done correctly, it is impossible to tell. But a bad press will result in a crushed spine, impacted staples, etc. -- that will be downgraded for. And if trimming is detected (the microtrimming scandal of 2005 noted above) or there is color touch, glue, solvent cleaning, etc., the book will be flagged as restored (and not nearly as desirable as an unrestored example.)
To those at PSA working on this issue, I wish you luck in resolving it to MOST people's satisfaction -- it is essential for the trust/stability of card market at large. Towards that end, I'm not sure if professional courtesy (for the good of the market as a whole) will allow it, but you might reach out to Steve Borock, currently at CBCS (a competitor to CGC in grading comics) who was president of CGC during the time they uncovered the microtrimming by Jason Ewert.
If people think conspiracy theories abound at the Blowout forums (and it IS there, as well as well-reasoned concern and great detective work by people who truly care about honest dealings) that's nothing compared to comic board people and what they were saying about CGC at the time. Some of them (super-cranks) still hold a grudge. But CGC stood up to the scrutiny, and continues its strong market position to the current day.
Some caveats to reaching out to Steve B -- CGC is part of the same group as NGC, so not sure if competitors really talk shop in great detail. Professional courtesy is one thing, and protecting trade secrets is another. Even though Steve is no longer at CGC, CBCS (which he helped found after spending an appropriate non-compete length of time away from CGC) was recently purchased by and now is a subsidiary of Beckett -- so there again is a competitor situation.
All that aside, I think for the the good of an honest market and trust in the market as a whole, competitor or no, it would be good for the PSA folks working behind the scenes to reach out to Steve Borock. If it's possible for him to help or to give advice on how they went about detecting the microtrimming when at CGC, and how they dealt with fallout while cleaning up the situation, I think he will. https://www.cbcscomics.com/about
Good luck (sincerely.)
They've been snooping.
And here we go.
After reading up on this, my tin foil hat is pulled tight over my head. I saw the Moser's ID was whitman111. About two years ago I had a 1952 Bowman Large Gifford PSA 7.5 listed on ebay. Whitman111 sent me multiple message trying to lowball buy the card. I replied once and never replied again. I decided to list on PWCC instead later and took a bath on it. It was well-centered and graded before the lighthouse label.
I went to my PWCC account to see when I listed it. I wanted to see if I listed after the "HE sticker" stuff started because IMHO it should have been HE. I bought it from a fellow board member that has an excellent eye for high quality. Now I can't find any detail on my submission or use the archived search tool.
It could be that they changed the site and I don't know what I'm doing, or if I was played. I wanted to do an archive search to see if PWCC sold another 1952 Bowman Large Gifford at PSA 8 or higher.
EDIT: This whole scam makes me wonder if PWCC knew more about the "buying group" than they are letting on. Let me adjust the tin foil hat a little more.
forgive me, but how does this screenshot show federal investigators watching the boards?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It doesn't. No one said they were watching the boards. Just that they have shown a interest in this matter, at least enough to visit that site.
@craig44
Since the screen-cap above is of the message that is from Sports Card Radio’s twitter feed and site owners can pretty easily ascertain the identity of whomever visits their websites, I’m guessing the disclosure that both FBI and eBay accounts have logged on to read their postings is a disclosure that, once they discovered, they were all too happy to broadcast.
If true, it’s certainly an interesting development.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
It probably is true. Colin and Ryan do like to toot their own horn.
My mom always said if you do that too much, you’ll go blind.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Um Dan, I'm over here.
No. You know how slowly the government works? You know how unlikely an indictment is?
If you want to hedge, I'd be willing to guarantee your payment for a small markup. PM me to discuss.
Welcome to the forum
Along with the Flag, Quote, Agree, Like, and LOL buttons, they should add a "Go suck a Lemon" button. That would be cool.
The person who distills this whole issue into a Cliff Note pamphlet gets my genius vote.
Mike, do I have your vote?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
You got it buddy!
Keep in mind - that means reading a ton of posts at both net54 and Blowout.
Sorry - it’s already done and you have it in your inbox.
I should have been a bit more clear...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Thanx!
What about if someone had submitted for an auction next month?
Yes, I’m there too. Ironically I have cards all boxed and ready to go Oregon for their next auction that are still sitting on my dining room table, glad I procrastinated. I’d be a lot more worried about collecting if I had cards listed in their current auction.
Once the feds enter the room to talk to Brent he will automatically become, a Poodle. He won't give them the run-around.
Yeah, agreed about wondering. I shipped about 64 items off to PWCC a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the submittal window for the July auction series, and it would be thousands of dollars in sales. I had never consigned any items with them prior to that shipment. After waiting for years, I'm thinking a few more weeks wouldn't have hurt. Now I'm pretty anxious to see how this all plays out.
Thank you dear friend!
Come on people now. Smile on your brothers.
Maybe pwcc will come up with a sticker denoting unassailable provenance. Whatever the market wants, right?
Sure. If you want action, PM me.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-Tom-Seaver-45-PSA-9-MINT-PWCC-E/352683208136?hash=item521d8eadc8:g:fGEAAOSwhpRc9aMG
I just don’t know what to make of these auctions anymore. I love this ‘68 Seaver and was considering bidding on it. With over a week remaining, it’s already above what it sold for when it was last offered. It is at $618, and all the bids over $344 come from three bidders with 8 bid retractions between them in the last 6 months. I’ve been on eBay for 21 years and have never retracted a bid. Maybe there’s some legit reason for bid retractions I’m unaware of. But as soon as I see multiple bidders with multiple retractions in an auction I’m scared off. Something serious needs to be done to restore confidence in this whole process because it’s getting increasingly difficult to look the other way.
Bid retractions are a red flag for shill bidding. It just never ends. PWCC isn't going to ever change.
Brent has tattooed himself in the hobby’s eyes based on his own actions.
He will have to bear the consequences of that.
Dave
Here's the link to the BO discussion on that topic. Evidence looks pretty damning but not sure it can be considered proof.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
Jim
FWIW,
I've been following Seaver auctions and sales over the past two months and there is some clear market manipulation going on with several sellers. Cards all of a sudden selling for nearly 50% more than that grade has, cards being re-listed within a week of a closed auction/sale, "silent reserve" sales, etc...
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
According to some people on this board, its because PWCC has better scanners
and better customer service 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Yeh, and I mean several sellers other than pwcc too. Its likely due to the news about his health, but all of a sudden paying more for cards of a 25-year HOFer just because he has little time left makes no sense(autographs, sure; cards, no).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Or at least an "NM" sticker for "non-Moser".
:> @CW said:
reply of the day
RESPECT THE HOBBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BIGLEAGUE SportsCards
"Respect The Hobby"
www.bigleaguesc.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/bigleagueseller
I have been saying for YEARS that bid retractions should not be allowed.
Retractions are in fact WORSE than shill bids as the can reveal the top bid put in on a given item with no consequence to the retractor. Then the retractor (or friend of retractor) can bid right up to the top bid. A shill bid may or may not work, and certainly would have much less affect if retractions were not allowed.
Ebay allows retractions not pwcc.
If you really want to make things better for the hobby, start closing the gaping retraction loophole.
I have been (mostly buying) on ebay since 1998 and never have retracted a bid.
I also no longer worry about the prices of cards. I decide what I am willing to pay and stop bidding at that amount. This can be hard to do, but it can be done!
I hear this a lot and I’m not sure what it means. I may be willing to pay $100 for card X, but I shouldn’t have to unless another legit bidder is willing to pay $99.
I think he means he has the willpower to stop and not try to win at all costs. At least that is how I took it. I sometimes get the win at all costs feeling, but the cards I'm typically bidding on are pretty cheap to begin with.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
I do the same thing. The only difference might be I always wait until the final seconds of the auction and submit my one-and-only bid on the item (and keep my fingers crossed).