PWCC reply to recent issues

bounce

Did not appear they have posted here, I won't speculate why

Here you go - same thing posted on Net54 and Blowout

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=269710

Unknown

This content has been removed.

80sOPC

I posted in the Vault thread about issues the wine industry has had.

If I had cards in the PWCC vault I would be requesting return shipping Monday. If this scandal takes PWCC out - and fwiw I don’t believe it will - your cards are not safe.

What a complete mess. Hobby will survive - its always been full of crooks and cheats - but man, what a mess.

hyperchipper09

At best it's a sad and pathetic situation. At worst it's felonious collusion among a few entities, some of which have, or had, solid respect among the majority in the collecting community.

JoeBanzai

@Rttrffg2012 said:

@1970s said:
So, so sad. Such a good business, and asset to the hobby, that is about to implode. Other sellers and big time dealers, take note. If Bill Mastro went to jail, as did his boss Doug Allen, then anyone in this hobby can go to jail too. If anyone shills auctions, or doctors cards, be put on notice. Time to cancel those shill eBay accounts before it's too late. Don't say it won't ever happen, because I'm sure these guys never thought it would happen either. For the good guys in the hobby, sleep well tonight, because I know you will. There are more of you than more of them. Got to give a big thanks to Collectors Universe for allowing us to use their message boards to expose some of the dirty deeds going on. Got to give a big thanks to the guys who did the hard work of exposing the darkness, and bringing it into the light. Thank you.

Policing will only come from within the hobby.

I don’t think any dragon has been slayed.
This is a blip on the map that might lose 10% market share for pwcc. And then they’ll get it back in a few months. Whatever they are about to lose, the past few years have been good enough to outweigh the negatives.

Frankly, they have the greatest excuse in history of fraud: PSA graded it.

Remember, Mastro didn’t get busted for trimming millions of dollars in cards. He got busted for shill bidding.

For decades, The fbi has been going after autograph fraud without making any real dent in fake autos.

Even Moser is untouchable criminally- why? PSA GRADED IT!

If you are waiting for the authorities to clean this up, you will not be pleased.

We all have to vote with our dollars. But we won’t do that. At a certain price point, it will make sense to buy/sell with pwcc again.

Well said.

80sOPC

Ahh, the allegations are that PWCC had cards in their chain of custody that went through the full process - purchase, alteration, and ultimately sale. This doesn’t appear to be just a case of them selling cards that passed a TPG, that they auctioned. They will not be able to hide behind the TPG.

If I sell you a house that has known issues, that I worked to cover up, and said house passes inspection, I am liable, not the inspector. Once again this doesn’t appear to be an issue if an auction house unknowingly selling altered cards. There is more at stake here then 10% market share.

JoeBanzai

@80sOPC said:
Ahh, the allegations are that PWCC had cards in their chain of custody that went through the full process - purchase, alteration, and ultimately sale. This doesn’t appear to be just a case of them selling cards that passed a TPG, that they auctioned. They will not be able to hide behind the TPG.

Correct.

If I sell you a house that has known issues, that I worked to cover up, and said house passes inspection, I am liable, not the inspector. Once again this doesn’t appear to be an issue if an auction house unknowingly selling altered cards. There is more at stake here then 10% market share.

Not a very good analogy, but I get your point.

doubledragon

If Brent does go to county jail, I don't think he'll like it too much. I've heard they serve oranges all the time for lunch, and they aren't even fresh.

70ToppsFanatic

SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

I repeat what I said in the vault thread. Integrity will ALWAYS matter!

rcmb3220

@Rttrffg2012 said:

@1970s said:
So, so sad. Such a good business, and asset to the hobby, that is about to implode. Other sellers and big time dealers, take note. If Bill Mastro went to jail, as did his boss Doug Allen, then anyone in this hobby can go to jail too. If anyone shills auctions, or doctors cards, be put on notice. Time to cancel those shill eBay accounts before it's too late. Don't say it won't ever happen, because I'm sure these guys never thought it would happen either. For the good guys in the hobby, sleep well tonight, because I know you will. There are more of you than more of them. Got to give a big thanks to Collectors Universe for allowing us to use their message boards to expose some of the dirty deeds going on. Got to give a big thanks to the guys who did the hard work of exposing the darkness, and bringing it into the light. Thank you.

Policing will only come from within the hobby.

I don’t think any dragon has been slayed.
This is a blip on the map that might lose 10% market share for pwcc. And then they’ll get it back in a few months. Whatever they are about to lose, the past few years have been good enough to outweigh the negatives.

Frankly, they have the greatest excuse in history of fraud: PSA graded it.

Remember, Mastro didn’t get busted for trimming millions of dollars in cards. He got busted for shill bidding.

For decades, The fbi has been going after autograph fraud without making any real dent in fake autos.

Even Moser is untouchable criminally- why? PSA GRADED IT!

If you are waiting for the authorities to clean this up, you will not be pleased.

We all have to vote with our dollars. But we won’t do that. At a certain price point, it will make sense to buy/sell with pwcc again.

I doubt authentication launders the responsibility away from the card doctors.

garnettstyle

IN

bounce

Lots of interesting discussion of PWCC and the grading issues, but honestly that discussion is a fair bit more open and robust on the other forums for obvious reasons.

I'll ask this question, hopefully it doesn't get me "bounce"d.

Has PWCC been removed from this message board?

I haven't been particularly active here in nearly a year, but I can't find any evidence of them posting on here in the past 6 months and I find it odd that their apology isn't here either.

Mod - not necessarily trying to start something, but wondering if you can confirm they've been "relieved of posting duties"? It's the obvious elephant in the room currently.

KendallCat

@70ToppsFanatic said:
SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

I repeat what I said in the vault thread. Integrity will ALWAYS matter!

Agree 100% Dave. When they did their shilling two step back in 2016, and rather than fix it they had an open message board mud slinging contest over it with those involved. Rather than stop a***t they in their own words “coached him” before removing him when things got ugly. Wonder if all shill bidders were coached by them. Plenty of dealers and collectors who are honest to deal with and still make the hobby enjoyable outside of them so no worries.

KC

graygator

"Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust."

PWCC's posting this on a day when they have a live auction of what appears to be an altered card, a card that is tied to a known Moser submission to PSA, is pretty brazen and not how I would think they would go about "regaining trust," as if such a thing were possible anyway.

https://blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

AFLfan

@bounce said:

Mod - not necessarily trying to start something, but wondering if you can confirm they've been "relieved of posting duties"? It's the obvious elephant in the room currently.

To my knowledge they have not been relieved of posting ability. Certainly not since I took over as moderator, at a minimum.

ndleo

I haven't really followed any of the PWCC threads since my graded card buying slowed down a couple of years ago. As I go down the rabbit hole, I am surprised how many scams are trimming modern cards for regrades as well.

I would really appreciate it if someone can tell me the short story on what type of cards were affected by Moser & Co. Are we talking mainly vintage baseball?

Considering the history of the #1 card in the hobby, should we be surprised greed killed the golden goose.

FSU939913

Should I be concerned if I just purchased a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan #57 from PWCC? I have not received the item but payment has been made. Should I file a case with eBay if I want out? Any thoughts are appreciated.

70ToppsFanatic

@FSU939913 said:
Should I be concerned if I just purchased a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan #57 from PWCC? I have not received the item but payment has been made. Should I file a case with eBay if I want out? Any thoughts are appreciated.

If you think you will always question whether or not the card is legit then file the case and find another one from a vendor without a history like this one.

FWIW I haven’t bought a significant card from PWCC since their shilling issues arose in 2016.

galaxy27

to anyone reading this who will -- from this day forward -- reach the crossroads of monetary temptation, just do the right thing. it's that simple. i assure you the compunction you possess with be worth infinitely more than any number of dollar figures that could ever siphon its way into your bank account. PWCC had the ideal platform to rock and roll in this hobby, but as is often the case in today's world, selling its soul to the devil took precedence. being on top of the world wasn't good enough; the dark side was far too enticing.

if anyone from the PWCC camp is reading this, shame on you. you can spin this all you want, but you in essence condoned jacking with cards. and then, incredulously, decided to take it a step further. or in layman's terms, you're cool with people doing things to others that you damn well know you wouldn't want done to you. the golden rule. it's the ultimate litmus test.

ElMagoStrikeZone

This makes me sick.

mintonlypls

Greed...

gemint

I just don't get how time and again someone builds a great business and then risks throwing it all away to make a bit more money. Mastro had the best auction business in the hobby and they would have dominated for years to come had they just accepted a good profit margin rather than a great one. It would be a shame if more businesses follow that path.

One thing is for certain. We have a lot of great collectors out there who are also good detectives. If someone attempts to cheat in this hobby one too many times, we will catch them!

vintagefun

I think they call this “preservation” now, right? Didn’t we just have a thread regarding their view on preservation vs alteration? Seems an initial salvo of plausible deniability of wrongdoing. “Doing the hobby a favor” I think the text said. Sad.

_EagleEyeKid_

"Incarceration" is hopefully next.

doubledragon

Money talks, everything else walks.

1951WheatiesPremium

@gemint said:
I just don't get how time and again someone builds a great business and then risks throwing it all away to make a bit more money. Mastro had the best auction business in the hobby and they would have dominated for years to come had they just accepted a good profit margin rather than a great one. It would be a shame if more businesses follow that path.

One thing is for certain. We have a lot of great collectors out there who are also good detectives. If someone attempts to cheat in this hobby one too many times, we will catch them!

Sometimes

HighGradeLegends

@FSU939913 said:
Should I be concerned if I just purchased a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan #57 from PWCC? I have not received the item but payment has been made. Should I file a case with eBay if I want out? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Welcome to the forum

detroitfan2

@galaxy27 said:
to anyone reading this who will -- from this day forward -- reach the crossroads of monetary temptation, just do the right thing. it's that simple. i assure you the compunction you possess with be worth infinitely more than any number of dollar figures that could ever siphon its way into your bank account. PWCC had the ideal platform to rock and roll in this hobby, but as is often the case in today's world, selling its soul to the devil took precedence. being on top of the world wasn't good enough; the dark side was far too enticing.

if anyone from the PWCC camp is reading this, shame on you. you can spin this all you want, but you in essence condoned jacking with cards. and then, incredulously, decided to take it a step further. or in layman's terms, you're cool with people doing things to others that you damn well know you wouldn't want done to you. the golden rule. it's the ultimate litmus test.

I am assuming this means no more PayPal gift / friends & family for card purchases on BST boards.

JoeBanzai

@detroitfan2 said:

@galaxy27 said:
to anyone reading this who will -- from this day forward -- reach the crossroads of monetary temptation, just do the right thing. it's that simple. i assure you the compunction you possess with be worth infinitely more than any number of dollar figures that could ever siphon its way into your bank account. PWCC had the ideal platform to rock and roll in this hobby, but as is often the case in today's world, selling its soul to the devil took precedence. being on top of the world wasn't good enough; the dark side was far too enticing.

if anyone from the PWCC camp is reading this, shame on you. you can spin this all you want, but you in essence condoned jacking with cards. and then, incredulously, decided to take it a step further. or in layman's terms, you're cool with people doing things to others that you damn well know you wouldn't want done to you. the golden rule. it's the ultimate litmus test.

I am assuming this means no more PayPal gift / friends & family for card purchases on BST boards.

Good one!

detroitfan2

@JoeBanzai said:

@detroitfan2 said:

@galaxy27 said:
to anyone reading this who will -- from this day forward -- reach the crossroads of monetary temptation, just do the right thing. it's that simple. i assure you the compunction you possess with be worth infinitely more than any number of dollar figures that could ever siphon its way into your bank account. PWCC had the ideal platform to rock and roll in this hobby, but as is often the case in today's world, selling its soul to the devil took precedence. being on top of the world wasn't good enough; the dark side was far too enticing.

if anyone from the PWCC camp is reading this, shame on you. you can spin this all you want, but you in essence condoned jacking with cards. and then, incredulously, decided to take it a step further. or in layman's terms, you're cool with people doing things to others that you damn well know you wouldn't want done to you. the golden rule. it's the ultimate litmus test.

I am assuming this means no more PayPal gift / friends & family for card purchases on BST boards.

Good one!

I'm actually being quite serious. It's always interesting to see where the acceptable "limits of integrity" lie . . .

krisd3279

Telling the homeless person you don't have any cash when you have a fat wad of bills in your pocket.....

craig44

@FSU939913 said:
Should I be concerned if I just purchased a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan #57 from PWCC? I have not received the item but payment has been made. Should I file a case with eBay if I want out? Any thoughts are appreciated.

I would highly question that card.

JoeBanzai

@detroitfan2 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@detroitfan2 said:

@galaxy27 said:
to anyone reading this who will -- from this day forward -- reach the crossroads of monetary temptation, just do the right thing. it's that simple. i assure you the compunction you possess with be worth infinitely more than any number of dollar figures that could ever siphon its way into your bank account. PWCC had the ideal platform to rock and roll in this hobby, but as is often the case in today's world, selling its soul to the devil took precedence. being on top of the world wasn't good enough; the dark side was far too enticing.

if anyone from the PWCC camp is reading this, shame on you. you can spin this all you want, but you in essence condoned jacking with cards. and then, incredulously, decided to take it a step further. or in layman's terms, you're cool with people doing things to others that you damn well know you wouldn't want done to you. the golden rule. it's the ultimate litmus test.

I am assuming this means no more PayPal gift / friends & family for card purchases on BST boards.

Good one!

I'm actually being quite serious. It's always interesting to see where the acceptable "limits of integrity" lie . . .

I was too. Lots of people do things that are not right and then justify their behavior, but when someone else does it "OH MY"!

Unknown

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mintonlypls

It doesn't change the way I feel about the HE And PQ stickers...cards have better eye appeal which is idea of the stickers. I have always liked the idea...no two cards present equally for a given grade despite the same technical grade.

PaulMaul

@MLBdays said:
I am eager to see if PSA acquiesces to "conservation" grading .... If they legitimize conservation and adjust their own "in stone standards" which are well documented~ Well then ~I don't know what to think. Could we have an all new grading and re-grading frenzy on our hands? Furthermore, how do you even tell its been conserved~~ if you cant tell its been conserved?????? LOL

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, comic book grading company CGC has for years now openly stated that non additive techniques like dry cleaning and pressing are not considered restoration and (if done properly) are not detectable. That bothered me at the time and still does. It particularly bothered me when they formed a partnership to actually have comics pressed as part of the grading process. The answer is, most people adjust to the new norm and move on if they are sufficiently attached to the hobby. Probably a few get so disgusted that they leave.

PaulMaul

This ad is actually on the CGC webpage:

DBesse27

@mintonlypls said:
It doesn't change the way I feel about the HE And PQ stickers...cards have better eye appeal which is idea of the stickers. I have always liked the idea...no two cards present equally for a given grade despite the same technical grade.

The stickers were always stupid. Some “cards have better eye appeal”, true.... but wouldn’t the better eye appeal be self evident? Isn’t that the very definition of eye appeal? Do you really need somebody to tell you “item A looks better than item B”? Most of us have eyes for that.

Grading (technical grading standards) exist for a different reason. They tell us that whether the item looks great or not, this is the technical condition, flaws and all. None of us can fully assess a technical grade at first glance. This is why TPGs are necessary.

And why gimmicky stickers telling me what my eyes should see are not necessary.

Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05)

if a company with a vault declares bankruptcy, can your assets in that vault be counted for reorganization purposes? asking for a friend...

Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05)

@HighGradeLegends said:

@FSU939913 said:
Should I be concerned if I just purchased a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan #57 from PWCC? I have not received the item but payment has been made. Should I file a case with eBay if I want out? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Welcome to the forum

hahahahaha

Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05)

all of sudden those jagged cuts are better looking than the sharp cuts

JoeBanzai

@lawyer05 said:
all of sudden those jagged cuts are better looking than the sharp cuts

SSHHHHHHHH that's a SECRET!

MrHockey

Anyone want to bet on "PWCC still in operation, running auctions, and no criminal indictment in a year"? I will take yes. Stakes open. PM me if interested.

FSU939913

I called SGC to see if I could find out any information on the 86 Fleer Jordan, I just purchased from PWCC. They do not retain an image of the graded card, however, I have been assured the card was graded by their head grader who has been with them 20 years. The card was graded this year. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. SGC had very good customer service.

The bad news is no one is answering the phone at PWCC as of 10:15 Pacific time. I left a message for a callback. Hope to hear back soon. I have purchased one other card from PWCC and it was a great card. I spoke to someone last Friday from PWCC who was very nice. I hope they send my card and nothing goes wrong.

I hope this Moser guy only dealt with earlier cards, but who knows.

MrHockey

@FSU939913 said:
I called SGC to see if I could find out any information on the 86 Fleer Jordan, I just purchased from PWCC. They do not retain an image of the graded card, however, I have been assured the card was graded by their head grader who has been with them 20 years. The card was graded this year. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. SGC had very good customer service.

The bad news is no one is answering the phone at PWCC as of 10:15 Pacific time. I left a message for a callback. Hope to hear back soon. I have purchased one other card from PWCC and it was a great card. I spoke to someone last Friday from PWCC who was very nice. I hope they send my card and nothing goes wrong.

I hope this Moser guy only dealt with earlier cards, but who knows.

Do your homework, look at previous examples using Worthpoint, VCP, eBay completed sales, APR, etc.

Overall, its statistically quite unlikely to be affected. Many altered cards have turned up, but PWCC has sold zillions of cards. The known alterations are a fraction of a fraction of a % of sales.

PS---what do you think PWCC is going to say to you? Are you asking for a return? If not, they're going to tell you 'it's fine'.

Panama Mutiny (Formerly lawyer05)

@JoeBanzai said:

@lawyer05 said:
all of sudden those jagged cuts are better looking than the sharp cuts

SSHHHHHHHH that's a SECRET!

Hahahaahha

Jimmy_Commonpants

Regarding the concern the poster above has regarding the 86F Jordan - Is that a card that there have been "alteration" issues with? I've never heard of such issues with 86 Fleer basketball, just the counterfeit issue. I'm not sure how you could trim one of those cards and it not be abundantly obvious.

FSU939913

@MrHockey
I have seen hundreds of the card online and a few in person. It looks solid. I reviewed the card for almost a week. I watch sold eBay and other auction houses for pricing. I make a Jordan market report weekly, so I can review trends. I invest mainly in Michael Jordan cards and collect many other stars from my childhood. I think high graded MJ cards are more likely to appreciate than others. His brand is huge and well-known with the younger generations. Plus, the Asian market is always going to have demand for Michael Jordan cards.

I have a good eye but don't think I could pick up on a slight trim job from an expert cutter.

Just wanted others opinion because I have only been back collecting for around six months. I have studied as much as I can in that six months, though.

I tried posting a pic of the card but it has to be approved.

FSU939913

@Jimmy_Commonpants

Thank you for the input. Much appreciated!

PROMETHIUS88

@FSU939913 said:
I called SGC to see if I could find out any information on the 86 Fleer Jordan, I just purchased from PWCC. They do not retain an image of the graded card, however, I have been assured the card was graded by their head grader who has been with them 20 years. The card was graded this year. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. SGC had very good customer service.

The bad news is no one is answering the phone at PWCC as of 10:15 Pacific time. I left a message for a callback. Hope to hear back soon. I have purchased one other card from PWCC and it was a great card. I spoke to someone last Friday from PWCC who was very nice. I hope they send my card and nothing goes wrong.

I hope this Moser guy only dealt with earlier cards, but who knows.

I think it's only 9:47am Pacific time right now?!?

FSU939913

@PROMETHIUS88

You are correct. I put Mountain time instead of Pacific. I'm on Mt