@PaulMaul said:
This ad is actually on the CGC webpage:
I like your taste in collectibles and style, PaulMaul, as you probably know. I remember well the brushups with CGC and pressing, pro and con around 2005 or so. Since then the comic market embraces pressing as par for the course to get the best possible appearance/grade for a comic -- which while still paper, is materially different than a baseball card in how its evaluated. Without adding solvents, color touch, reglossing, and especially not trimming -- a comic can be pressed to remove reading dimples, etc. and if no color breaking creases were originally present, it takes on a much better appearance and will generally grade higher and sell for more. Pressing is NOT a cure-all for color breaking creases, it can't repair tears, and so forth, it can only flatten and improve spine rolls. That's where the line in comics has been drawn, more or less, on what's acceptable and considered NOT restoration. Of course there are always some who will disagree.
Cards have proven to be a different animal, because PSA has from the start dinged pressing in the sense of "altered stock" -- and depending on the issue requiring pressing in the first place, a "properly" pressed card won't be detectable, unless clearly before and after hires images exist.
Without getting into whether pressing is acceptable -- I believe it is, but many will disagree -- I hate that it gets lumped into the idea of trimming being, in even the remotest sense, acceptable. It can't be and never will be acceptable to physically remove material from a factory-trimmed card to appear to be a higher grade. And it should absolutely be detectable, though it seems PSA and others have failed miserably and repeatedly at this. And this is fundamental. It is not a matter of slipping one past the goalie -- that would be understandable -- however dozens have slipped past and it calls into question, for me, whether we don't need to scrap that goaltender and get a new (well-trained and paying attention) kids in there.
This is a problem that won't easily be explained away. Bottom line, trimming is unacceptable and being unable to detect it is a bigger problem than the original sin of trimming in the first place.
I certainly agree trimming is way different and worse than pressing. While CGC failed to detect the Ewert microtrimming, at least no one including them thought missing it was acceptable.
I don’t like pressing, mostly for emotional reasons. For me the appeal of high grade items is that they are very close to their original state. Anything that undoes wear/damage, even if it creates a high grade appearance, just doesn’t give me the same thrill. Unless of course I am unaware the work was done. 🙂
I certainly agree trimming is way different and worse than pressing. While CGC failed to detect the Ewert microtrimming, at least no one including them thought missing it was acceptable.
I don’t like pressing, mostly for emotional reasons. For me the appeal of high grade items is that they are very close to their original state. Anything that undoes wear/damage, even if it creates a high grade appearance, just doesn’t give me the same thrill. Unless of course I am unaware the work was done. 🙂
That's the rub for a lot of people, and I can definitely see it even though I don't have a problem with pressing IF it's well done. But I have seen my fair share of comic pressing disasters, done, I presume, by one of the amateurs out there. That's kind of what I meant by the really good pressers of comics who aren't prone to making things flat as a pancake, who are able to press a VG (for example) comic and it still looks natural, like a VG but minus a spine roll, etc.
None of that excuses a Cole Schave job (pressing that fubars the comics because the process was rushed) or reverse spine rolling (to hide spine flaws on the back.) But the Ewert microtrim scandal took the cake, and much as with the cards in question lately, before and after scans told the tale. Wonder if he and the current scissorhands fellow ever sit down and talk shop. Ewert was "banned" from ever submitting comics to CGC again, though you get the feeling he's still trying to ply his craft somehow.
@PaulMaul said:
This ad is actually on the CGC webpage:
I like your taste in collectibles and style, PaulMaul, as you probably know. I remember well the brushups with CGC and pressing, pro and con around 2005 or so. Since then the comic market embraces pressing as par for the course to get the best possible appearance/grade for a comic -- which while still paper, is materially different than a baseball card in how its evaluated. Without adding solvents, color touch, reglossing, and especially not trimming -- a comic can be pressed to remove reading dimples, etc. and if no color breaking creases were originally present, it takes on a much better appearance and will generally grade higher and sell for more. Pressing is NOT a cure-all for color breaking creases, it can't repair tears, and so forth, it can only flatten and improve spine rolls. That's where the line in comics has been drawn, more or less, on what's acceptable and considered NOT restoration. Of course there are always some who will disagree.
Cards have proven to be a different animal, because PSA has from the start dinged pressing in the sense of "altered stock" -- and depending on the issue requiring pressing in the first place, a "properly" pressed card won't be detectable, unless clearly before and after hires images exist.
Without getting into whether pressing is acceptable -- I believe it is, but many will disagree -- I hate that it gets lumped into the idea of trimming being, in even the remotest sense, acceptable. It can't be and never will be acceptable to physically remove material from a factory-trimmed card to appear to be a higher grade. And it should absolutely be detectable, though it seems PSA and others have failed miserably and repeatedly at this. And this is fundamental. It is not a matter of slipping one past the goalie -- that would be understandable -- however dozens have slipped past and it calls into question, for me, whether we don't need to scrap that goaltender and get a new (well-trained and paying attention) kids in there.
This is a problem that won't easily be explained away. Bottom line, trimming is unacceptable and being unable to detect it is a bigger problem than the original sin of trimming in the first place.
@craig44 said:
are these current accusations grounds for ebay closing the PWCC account?
No. Keyword "accusations". They sell 50M per year on ebay. It will take a lot for ebay to boot them.
It is my understanding that eBay will not allow fraudulent sellers. Now, the 50 mil/year will not go away, it would just be sold by different sellers. Same as when an airline goes under, those planes are not grounded, they are just purchased by other airlines and continue to fly
PSA has offered to review and buy back at market value any altered cards. Part of that process is incumbent upon the new owners to start the process by contacting PSA. Unclear if they will or even know that the cards in their possession are altered.
@1970s said:
So what is going to happen with all these trimmed cards in PSA holders. ? We know that there is a list with proof of such cards. We know who trimmed them. We know who sold them. We know who graded them. Is Moser going to reimburse all the buyers ? Is PSA going to reimburse them ? Are the cards just going to stay in those holders, even though they are altered ? PWCC looks like they get off for free on this concern ?
There are so many posts about this fluid situation all over right now. I think too much is still up in the air. There is solid evidence of some issues and tons of accusations and speculation about other stuff. I think it is best to let the dust settle a bit but I know that won't happen. There are folks that are avid, or should I say rabid, TPG haters and they would love nothing more than to see them take the fall. PWCC is not going to get off for free on this one. There are too many issues and evidence at this point. I have stated on another forum that I think PSA is taking the right stance, at this point, before issuing any type of public statement on the situation. You see everything Brent has done trying to get out in front of the situation and that hasn't worked out so well. Sad part is that even though there are a lot of cards affected, it's such a small percentage compared to the number of cards that have actually been holdered over time. I'm an optimist.....my hope is that this situation brings about some positive changes. I've always held the belief that a mistake corrected quickly and efficiently does more good to a reputation than constant good service. That, we seem to take for granted.
Aware of that. Don't think ebay will read that thread. Think a conviction would be necessary for a seller that big. But I'm not too well versed on ebay laws. Aside from that they sell fake porcelain signs from India, fake silver bags from China etc daily and everyone I've reported, never got pulled.
@mexpo75 said:
Do you think there will ever be a list of cards by PSA number to know if we have one of these cards?
During the interview Brent from PWCC mentioned there is currently a project underway to compile that list and make it available to the public. He did mention that it was important that the managers of the project have no affiliation with PWCC -- it needs to be independent. And I totally agree with that.
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
@Gilbey said:
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
That's a question I've been wondering for several days now... If Brent is smart, he'll honor every one of those requests so as not to make the situation worse... If PWCC wants any chance whatsoever to rebuild their brand, they're going to have to take a few steps back and start over from square one.
@Gilbey said:
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
I would expect him to honor your request, but I doubt they'd take a hit if you let them ride. Even shoeless-joejackson could move cards for MV back in the day when boards were filled with threads about him; Brent's auctions should do fine.
@Gilbey said:
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
I would expect him to honor your request, but I doubt they'd take a hit if you let them ride. Even shoeless-joejackson could move cards for MV back in the day when boards were filled with threads about him; Brent's auctions should do fine.
Provided the shilling accounts, accounts used to overpay for examples that could be conserved still are operational, and people no longer having morals are still bidding they should go higher than market value.
@Gilbey said:
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
Good luck with that.....
“Once the review period is closed, you waive any right to object to the auction listing for your item(s)”
I hope that they would do that for you
But I think that they’ll keep their hands on any type of business right now
It’s been a total shartshow lately
I had a round or two of consignments lined up, glad the collector in me procrastinated
@Gilbey said:
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
Good luck with that.....
“Once the review period is closed, you waive any right to object to the auction listing for your item(s)”
I hope that they would do that for you
But I think that they’ll keep their hands on any type of business right now
It’s been a total shartshow lately
I had a round or two of consignments lined up, glad the collector in me procrastinated
I only asked him to return the cards that haven't started yet. I will let the ones that started to run. I just feel it's not the right time to sell with them right now
@DeweyOxburger said:
wow, what a scammer. Openly admits to shill bidding and now flipping cards with 10 known trimmers. What a mess he has made for himself and PSA. OucH!
If someone does go to jail for shill bidding, they could have a rough time. I've heard that the roaches in jail always have first dibs on the sink. So if you need to shave in jail, there could be a delay.
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
You are missing the point. If he admits he knew about the "doctored" cards, and then he also assigned his sticker to cards he knew that were doctored -- that is a major problem. I personally don't mind the stickers and would pay more for a stickered card. Just as long as it was not one of the doctored cards...
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
While I somewhat disagree with you on the importance of the sticker and what that “means,” let’s ignore that tangent for the time being. The biggest smoking gun to date, in my opinion, is that he bought some of the cards that were later altered and sold. That chain of custody is huge in my opinion. If you buy a card, it’s then altered, and then you sell it, plausible deniability goes out the window. Maybe he didn’t physically alter the card with his own hands. But there’s no way he knew nothing about the doctoring at that point.
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
You are missing the point. If he admits he knew about the "doctored" cards, and then he also assigned his sticker to cards he knew that were doctored -- that is a major problem. I personally don't mind the stickers and would pay more for a stickered card. Just as long as it was not one of the doctored cards...
Again, you are seeing/hearing things I am not.
Repeating what I said (not that it will do any good) we ALL KNOW that there are cards in holders that are altered, so that means no matter where you buy one, it may be altered. So if you are SELLING graded cards you could be selling altered cards.
I am not saying this guy is innocent here, in fact I would bet he's not. But he's always got that "we are not a grading company" to fall back on. Whether you believe it or not, he's going to say the card was authenticated by the experts and since he defers to them, graded cards (even ones that fool the TPG's) are authentic.
So, any previous sales that have concluded are "covered", the only way he can be caught, is if you can catch him "in the act". I have not seen this yet.
Has he admitted that he knew PRIOR to selling if a card he listed was altered, even though it was graded?
Evidence and suspicion is NOT proof.
I am not missing a thing here. He's trying to be "cute" here and I think he has "covered his a$$" his business is going to suffer greatly and possibly fail. I am assuming his "vault" idea is going to go down in flames.
Have to get to work. Looks like a beautiful day to deliver pizza!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
You are missing the point. If he admits he knew about the "doctored" cards, and then he also assigned his sticker to cards he knew that were doctored -- that is a major problem. I personally don't mind the stickers and would pay more for a stickered card. Just as long as it was not one of the doctored cards...
Again, you are seeing/hearing things I am not.
Repeating what I said (not that it will do any good) we ALL KNOW that there are cards in holders that are altered, so that means no matter where you buy one, it may be altered. So if you are SELLING graded cards you could be selling altered cards.
I am not saying this guy is innocent here, in fact I would bet he's not. But he's always got that "we are not a grading company" to fall back on. Whether you believe it or not, he's going to say the card was authenticated by the experts and since he defers to them, graded cards (even ones that fool the TPG's) are authentic.
So, any previous sales that have concluded are "covered", the only way he can be caught, is if you can catch him "in the act". I have not seen this yet.
Has he admitted that he knew PRIOR to selling if a card he listed was altered, even though it was graded?
Evidence and suspicion is NOT proof.
I am not missing a thing here. He's trying to be "cute" here and I think he has "covered his a$$" his business is going to suffer greatly and possibly fail. I am assuming his "vault" idea is going to go down in flames.
Have to get to work. Looks like a beautiful day to deliver pizza!
There is a difference between:
(A) putting a high end sticker on a card that you do not know is altered but feel is high end;
(B) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, then selling that card; and
(C) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, putting a high end sticker on the card, then selling the card.
That is all @DotStore is trying to point out. Some people have an issue with (A), many do not. Nearly everyone has a problem with (B). And (C) is just an overall cold blooded kick in the nuts. Maybe you got that, maybe not. Nothing to get all huffy about.
@DotStore said:
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
You are missing the point. If he admits he knew about the "doctored" cards, and then he also assigned his sticker to cards he knew that were doctored -- that is a major problem. I personally don't mind the stickers and would pay more for a stickered card. Just as long as it was not one of the doctored cards...
Again, you are seeing/hearing things I am not.
Repeating what I said (not that it will do any good) we ALL KNOW that there are cards in holders that are altered, so that means no matter where you buy one, it may be altered. So if you are SELLING graded cards you could be selling altered cards.
I am not saying this guy is innocent here, in fact I would bet he's not. But he's always got that "we are not a grading company" to fall back on. Whether you believe it or not, he's going to say the card was authenticated by the experts and since he defers to them, graded cards (even ones that fool the TPG's) are authentic.
So, any previous sales that have concluded are "covered", the only way he can be caught, is if you can catch him "in the act". I have not seen this yet.
Has he admitted that he knew PRIOR to selling if a card he listed was altered, even though it was graded?
Evidence and suspicion is NOT proof.
I am not missing a thing here. He's trying to be "cute" here and I think he has "covered his a$$" his business is going to suffer greatly and possibly fail. I am assuming his "vault" idea is going to go down in flames.
Have to get to work. Looks like a beautiful day to deliver pizza!
There is a difference between:
(A) putting a high end sticker on a card that you do not know is altered but feel is high end;
(B) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, then selling that card; and
(C) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, putting a high end sticker on the card, then selling the card.
That is all @DotStore is trying to point out. Some people have an issue with (A), many do not. Nearly everyone has a problem with (B). And (C) is just an overall cold blooded kick in the nuts. Maybe you got that, maybe not. Nothing to get all huffy about.
I am not huffy at all.
B and C (and A, for that matter) are all of course wrong. I really don't care if you kick me in the nuts AFTER you have killed me.
The seller (if guilty) simply MUST put the sticker on an altered card if it appears high end or people would wonder why he didn't.
Also (still not hufffy) I will again state that I am not in pwcc's corner here, neither have I decided they are guilty of altering cards. It DOES look like they were certainly profiting off of altered cards.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
The Net54 boards really seem to have a hatred towards everything PSA which I don't really get. From seeing first hand everything that can be done to a comic book in regards to conservation, alteration and all things in between I am not at all shocked that some of those things are also done to sports cards and the likes. If an item is paper things can be done to it and there are a few different things that can be done that are impossible to detect.
PSA is gonna have to handle this in a fashion that is similar to what CGC had to do with the micro-trimming Ewert scandal and go after those folks who have used and abused their relationship with PSA all these years.
I think it is pure bull **** for most of what is being said on the Net54 boards towards PSA and how they act like PSA is as guilty as PWCC and Moser are in regards to what is currently going on.
PSA just like CGC is going to do whatever it takes to protect the company and the customers from liars and cheaters but cons are always gonna angle shoot for the next way to make a quick buck and any collectibles will always be a target of cons.
Hell I hope PSA/ Collector's Universe goes after PWCC, Moser and any of the other trimmers/scammers in court. Straight up burn these con men to the ground in court.
@PADIdiver said:
Does anyone know if there's a federal investigation related to this case?
I saw a tweet that showed through website Analytics (which tracks visitors to a site) they could see someone from the FBI and other interested parties were visiting their site that discussed the this issue...
Comments
Man, these PWCC threads are like the field of dreams. If you build it, they will come.
wow, what a scammer. Openly admits to shill bidding and now flipping cards with 10 known trimmers. What a mess he has made for himself and PSA. OucH!
I like your taste in collectibles and style, PaulMaul, as you probably know. I remember well the brushups with CGC and pressing, pro and con around 2005 or so. Since then the comic market embraces pressing as par for the course to get the best possible appearance/grade for a comic -- which while still paper, is materially different than a baseball card in how its evaluated. Without adding solvents, color touch, reglossing, and especially not trimming -- a comic can be pressed to remove reading dimples, etc. and if no color breaking creases were originally present, it takes on a much better appearance and will generally grade higher and sell for more. Pressing is NOT a cure-all for color breaking creases, it can't repair tears, and so forth, it can only flatten and improve spine rolls. That's where the line in comics has been drawn, more or less, on what's acceptable and considered NOT restoration. Of course there are always some who will disagree.
Cards have proven to be a different animal, because PSA has from the start dinged pressing in the sense of "altered stock" -- and depending on the issue requiring pressing in the first place, a "properly" pressed card won't be detectable, unless clearly before and after hires images exist.
Without getting into whether pressing is acceptable -- I believe it is, but many will disagree -- I hate that it gets lumped into the idea of trimming being, in even the remotest sense, acceptable. It can't be and never will be acceptable to physically remove material from a factory-trimmed card to appear to be a higher grade. And it should absolutely be detectable, though it seems PSA and others have failed miserably and repeatedly at this. And this is fundamental. It is not a matter of slipping one past the goalie -- that would be understandable -- however dozens have slipped past and it calls into question, for me, whether we don't need to scrap that goaltender and get a new (well-trained and paying attention) kids in there.
This is a problem that won't easily be explained away. Bottom line, trimming is unacceptable and being unable to detect it is a bigger problem than the original sin of trimming in the first place.
@originalisbest
I certainly agree trimming is way different and worse than pressing. While CGC failed to detect the Ewert microtrimming, at least no one including them thought missing it was acceptable.
I don’t like pressing, mostly for emotional reasons. For me the appeal of high grade items is that they are very close to their original state. Anything that undoes wear/damage, even if it creates a high grade appearance, just doesn’t give me the same thrill. Unless of course I am unaware the work was done. 🙂
are these current accusations grounds for ebay closing the PWCC account?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That's the rub for a lot of people, and I can definitely see it even though I don't have a problem with pressing IF it's well done. But I have seen my fair share of comic pressing disasters, done, I presume, by one of the amateurs out there. That's kind of what I meant by the really good pressers of comics who aren't prone to making things flat as a pancake, who are able to press a VG (for example) comic and it still looks natural, like a VG but minus a spine roll, etc.
None of that excuses a Cole Schave job (pressing that fubars the comics because the process was rushed) or reverse spine rolling (to hide spine flaws on the back.) But the Ewert microtrim scandal took the cake, and much as with the cards in question lately, before and after scans told the tale. Wonder if he and the current scissorhands fellow ever sit down and talk shop. Ewert was "banned" from ever submitting comics to CGC again, though you get the feeling he's still trying to ply his craft somehow.
i dont do comics. but that is impressive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
And they would have gotten away with it if it wasnt for those pesky kids
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I am coming late to the dance. Can anyone either explain or give me link which has the total explanation of whats going on with PWCC?
No. Keyword "accusations". They sell 50M per year on ebay. It will take a lot for ebay to boot them.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Yes, right after they eliminate bid retractions. ;-)
It is my understanding that eBay will not allow fraudulent sellers. Now, the 50 mil/year will not go away, it would just be sold by different sellers. Same as when an airline goes under, those planes are not grounded, they are just purchased by other airlines and continue to fly
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
PSA has offered to review and buy back at market value any altered cards. Part of that process is incumbent upon the new owners to start the process by contacting PSA. Unclear if they will or even know that the cards in their possession are altered.
FWIW - no takers on the offer to bet, yet.
There are so many posts about this fluid situation all over right now. I think too much is still up in the air. There is solid evidence of some issues and tons of accusations and speculation about other stuff. I think it is best to let the dust settle a bit but I know that won't happen. There are folks that are avid, or should I say rabid, TPG haters and they would love nothing more than to see them take the fall. PWCC is not going to get off for free on this one. There are too many issues and evidence at this point. I have stated on another forum that I think PSA is taking the right stance, at this point, before issuing any type of public statement on the situation. You see everything Brent has done trying to get out in front of the situation and that hasn't worked out so well. Sad part is that even though there are a lot of cards affected, it's such a small percentage compared to the number of cards that have actually been holdered over time. I'm an optimist.....my hope is that this situation brings about some positive changes. I've always held the belief that a mistake corrected quickly and efficiently does more good to a reputation than constant good service. That, we seem to take for granted.
Aware of that. Don't think ebay will read that thread. Think a conviction would be necessary for a seller that big. But I'm not too well versed on ebay laws. Aside from that they sell fake porcelain signs from India, fake silver bags from China etc daily and everyone I've reported, never got pulled.
Tough day for CLCT today. No obvious news to cause it.
Do you think there will ever be a list of cards by PSA number to know if we have one of these cards?
They look innocent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I assume someone will do at some point. It would be a very useful aid.
During the interview Brent from PWCC mentioned there is currently a project underway to compile that list and make it available to the public. He did mention that it was important that the managers of the project have no affiliation with PWCC -- it needs to be independent. And I totally agree with that.
I have cards starting at auction with the in a few days, I asked them to pull them and send back to me at my expense. Do you guys think they will? I know they will take a hit if they don't.
That's a question I've been wondering for several days now... If Brent is smart, he'll honor every one of those requests so as not to make the situation worse... If PWCC wants any chance whatsoever to rebuild their brand, they're going to have to take a few steps back and start over from square one.
DesertIceSports.Com
I would expect him to honor your request, but I doubt they'd take a hit if you let them ride. Even shoeless-joejackson could move cards for MV back in the day when boards were filled with threads about him; Brent's auctions should do fine.
Provided the shilling accounts, accounts used to overpay for examples that could be conserved still are operational, and people no longer having morals are still bidding they should go higher than market value.
Good luck with that.....
“Once the review period is closed, you waive any right to object to the auction listing for your item(s)”
I hope that they would do that for you
But I think that they’ll keep their hands on any type of business right now
It’s been a total shartshow lately
I had a round or two of consignments lined up, glad the collector in me procrastinated
I only asked him to return the cards that haven't started yet. I will let the ones that started to run. I just feel it's not the right time to sell with them right now
SOL
My Dad can beat up your Dad.
Bunch of info on net54 and blowout forums. Here is a post with some Cert numbers in question.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
This page has a couple hundred listed, some with pics and cert numbers... http://www.sportscardradio.com/alert-fake-trimmed-altered-graded-cards-by-psa-or-bgs/
Jim
Geezus! That list is crazy and proof to back it all up too.
Welcome to the forum
If someone does go to jail for shill bidding, they could have a rough time. I've heard that the roaches in jail always have first dibs on the sink. So if you need to shave in jail, there could be a delay.
In his interview he actually says there will be hundreds of these cards. I mean, if he has an attorney, they should be advising him not to state publicly that he knows there will be hundreds of these -- the message he is sending out is that he knows there are tons of these cards, yet he continued to sell and in some cases promote (via PQ or HE Stickers) these "problem" cards...
We ALL know there are hundreds, more likely thousands of altered cards in circulation already in slabs. For him to deny it would be foolish.
Their position is clearly stated that they are NOT a grading service (yes I know, stickers boo hoo) so unless you can prove he actually altered any cards, you're getting worked up about little or nothing.
That being said, it certainly looks to me like his business will either fail now or be seriously damaged.
People really do need to get over the whole sticker thing.
You are missing the point. If he admits he knew about the "doctored" cards, and then he also assigned his sticker to cards he knew that were doctored -- that is a major problem. I personally don't mind the stickers and would pay more for a stickered card. Just as long as it was not one of the doctored cards...
While I somewhat disagree with you on the importance of the sticker and what that “means,” let’s ignore that tangent for the time being. The biggest smoking gun to date, in my opinion, is that he bought some of the cards that were later altered and sold. That chain of custody is huge in my opinion. If you buy a card, it’s then altered, and then you sell it, plausible deniability goes out the window. Maybe he didn’t physically alter the card with his own hands. But there’s no way he knew nothing about the doctoring at that point.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Knowledge is power. If you abuse your power, you become topical.
My Dad can beat up your Dad.
Future stickers will just say "sticker" for those that need that extra warm feeling.
Again, you are seeing/hearing things I am not.
Repeating what I said (not that it will do any good) we ALL KNOW that there are cards in holders that are altered, so that means no matter where you buy one, it may be altered. So if you are SELLING graded cards you could be selling altered cards.
I am not saying this guy is innocent here, in fact I would bet he's not. But he's always got that "we are not a grading company" to fall back on. Whether you believe it or not, he's going to say the card was authenticated by the experts and since he defers to them, graded cards (even ones that fool the TPG's) are authentic.
So, any previous sales that have concluded are "covered", the only way he can be caught, is if you can catch him "in the act". I have not seen this yet.
Has he admitted that he knew PRIOR to selling if a card he listed was altered, even though it was graded?
Evidence and suspicion is NOT proof.
I am not missing a thing here. He's trying to be "cute" here and I think he has "covered his a$$" his business is going to suffer greatly and possibly fail. I am assuming his "vault" idea is going to go down in flames.
Have to get to work. Looks like a beautiful day to deliver pizza!
There is a difference between:
(A) putting a high end sticker on a card that you do not know is altered but feel is high end;
(B) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, then selling that card; and
(C) buying a card, altering that card, getting that card graded, putting a high end sticker on the card, then selling the card.
That is all @DotStore is trying to point out. Some people have an issue with (A), many do not. Nearly everyone has a problem with (B). And (C) is just an overall cold blooded kick in the nuts. Maybe you got that, maybe not. Nothing to get all huffy about.
I am not huffy at all.
B and C (and A, for that matter) are all of course wrong. I really don't care if you kick me in the nuts AFTER you have killed me.
The seller (if guilty) simply MUST put the sticker on an altered card if it appears high end or people would wonder why he didn't.
Also (still not hufffy) I will again state that I am not in pwcc's corner here, neither have I decided they are guilty of altering cards. It DOES look like they were certainly profiting off of altered cards.
The Net54 boards really seem to have a hatred towards everything PSA which I don't really get. From seeing first hand everything that can be done to a comic book in regards to conservation, alteration and all things in between I am not at all shocked that some of those things are also done to sports cards and the likes. If an item is paper things can be done to it and there are a few different things that can be done that are impossible to detect.
PSA is gonna have to handle this in a fashion that is similar to what CGC had to do with the micro-trimming Ewert scandal and go after those folks who have used and abused their relationship with PSA all these years.
I think it is pure bull **** for most of what is being said on the Net54 boards towards PSA and how they act like PSA is as guilty as PWCC and Moser are in regards to what is currently going on.
PSA just like CGC is going to do whatever it takes to protect the company and the customers from liars and cheaters but cons are always gonna angle shoot for the next way to make a quick buck and any collectibles will always be a target of cons.
Hell I hope PSA/ Collector's Universe goes after PWCC, Moser and any of the other trimmers/scammers in court. Straight up burn these con men to the ground in court.
@brendanb438 I made a little four-star adjustment to your post ;-) Thank you for your post.
Does anyone know if there's a federal investigation related to this case?
I know some on net54 have stated they’ve contacted them.
Kevin
I saw a tweet that showed through website Analytics (which tracks visitors to a site) they could see someone from the FBI and other interested parties were visiting their site that discussed the this issue...