Newly found branch mint proof specimen?? TAKE A LOOK!

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245

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  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The mint mark would have been applied to the die after the design. If the reverse die is doubled the mint mark would not be doubled in the same rotation as the die.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:

    Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em. :D

    Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    That’s the plan we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow; was just trying to snow the coin off and hear opinions before grading.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @Barucci911 said:

    Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em. :D

    Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2019 10:53PM
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    " we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow "

    Please come back for an update.... with photos.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Working on that right now

    That’s the plan we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow; was just trying to snow the coin off and hear opinions before grading.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @Barucci911 said:

    Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em. :D

    Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.

  • kbbpll
    kbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭
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    Surely doubling of this magnitude would have been noticed by now, but you never know. I can't explain how a counterfeiter would end up with this kind of doubling. I am troubled by the perfectly parallel lines across the obverse portrait, when I zoom in on the hand-held image. I'm just an observer.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Really starting to see that now... all of “states” and “dollar” is doubled.

    @kbbpll said:
    Surely doubling of this magnitude would have been noticed by now, but you never know. I can't explain how a counterfeiter would end up with this kind of doubling. I am troubled by the perfectly parallel lines across the obverse portrait, when I zoom in on the hand-held image. I'm just an observer.

  • jtlee321
    jtlee321 Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2019 11:07PM
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    I might be mistaken, but for some reason I doubt it.

    Justin Lee Numismatic Photography



    image
  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jtlee321 said:
    I might be mistaken, but for some reason I doubt it.

    I was starting to wonder the same thing.... is it wabbit season? :D

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm out of carrots & bullets :D

  • Luxor
    Luxor Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TomB said:
    Maybe it's just me or the angle you are holding it or the lighting, but it looks like a counterfeit.

    Yes, this.

    -

    Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.

  • privaterarecoincollector
    privaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:
    I agree with that, yet how would a counterfierter make a better strike than the US mint I’d he was to use a cast? This looks like a Daniel Carr token it’s so darn detailed. Why would the counterfeiter go through so much trouble to fake a semi met date too is what I would be wondering. IS it out of the realm of possibility for this to be a specimen?

    @yosclimber said:

    @Barucci911 said:
    It’s not a counterfeit, all tests have been done...

    If a coin passes a number of tests (such as XRF), this still does not prove it is not a counterfeit.
    If it fails a test, then it is counterfeit.
    But if it passes all tests, that is inconclusive.

    For example, a counterfeiter could take a genuine coin and strike it with counterfeit dies.
    It would pass all the weight and metal composition tests, but would not be genuine.

    because you bought it.

  • Outhaul
    Outhaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911

    You appear to be convinced you have something unique here, I would send it to our host for authentication and grading.

    Cheers

    Bob

  • TradesWithChops
    TradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:

    Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em. :D

    submit it to PCGS and report back with the results.

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019 5:26AM
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    @Barucci911 said:
    Working on that right now

    That’s the plan we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow; was just trying to snow the coin off and hear opinions before grading.

    Walk through: $150 - $300

    Let us know your results.

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There have been valid points raised by members here... The doubled reverse, the MM etc...We look forward to hearing the results of your submission.... Cheers, RickO

  • hchcoin
    hchcoin Posts: 4,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Very informative thread. Thank you to @ifthevamzarockin for their patience and expertise.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MFeld said:
    I wonder what the reactions would have been if pictures of the coin had been posted and the OP had merely asked for opinions of the coin, without saying anything about "branch mint proof?.

    My reaction would be the same no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck.......

  • dave700x
    dave700x Posts: 59 ✭✭✭
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    There are no documented reverse dies with that mint mark position and certainly no DDR listings. What you have is a die struck counterfeit. The lack of cartwheel lustre is a dead giveaway beyond non-existent details. Luckily the counterfeiters have not been able to replicate cartwheel lustre, yet....

  • topstuf
    topstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Maybe it's a branch mint proof. >:)

    Next?

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Here are some more pics, natural sunlight. Gonna try and have this really photographed professionally soon.


    e

    o

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Still doing the walk through today?

    If so you should be able to post photos by 5 or 6 of it in it's new PCGS holder.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    How did your reed count turn out?

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911

    We are awaiting for the results after you walk it through.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Gonna be shipped out today.

    Here are some more pics, natural sunlight. Gonna try and have this really photographed professionally soon.


    e

    o

    @Hemispherical said:
    @Barucci911

    We are awaiting for the results after you walk it through.

    @Hemispherical said:
    @Barucci911

    We are awaiting for the results after you walk it through.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    "Gonna be shipped out today."

    What happened to the walk through?

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    It’s going through the walk through tier. I usually use NGC but I’m choosing PC for this.

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    "Gonna be shipped out today."

    What happened to the walk through?

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    There’s no show grading at Pittsburg

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Guess you didn't know that when you posted this last night?

    " we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow "

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Next you will tell us it did not grade because of artificial toning but it was a genuine Branch Mint proof. :D

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Lol you’re salty, really all I have to say at the end of this is that.

    1.) The coin is proper weight.
    2.) The coin has correct dimensions.
    3.) The coin has the strongest strike on a Morgan I’ve ever seen. Stringer strike than any 87-S you can look up out there.
    4.) doubling on reverse, Raised mint mark,
    5.) no die hub or VAM can be found for this Morgan because it is unique....

    Last questions:

    1.) How could such a Morgan be faked with doubling and such a perfect strike. I’d like to see examples of a fake like this one.

    2.) if this is fake, wouldn’t this be the best fake anyone has ever see?

    3.) why not fake an 1889-CC of this quality, why a semi key date?

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    Next you will tell us it did not grade because of artificial toning but it was a genuine Branch Mint proof. :D

  • kbbpll
    kbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019 8:47AM
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    I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.

    Edit: Not sure what you mean by "unique". Here is a PL on Heritage - https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1887-s-1-ms64-deep-mirror-prooflike-pcgs/a/1205-30170.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Seller is a member of PMG, PCGS, ANA.... he was a pretty knowledgeable collector, I just don’t think he thought about a BMP... what do you mean by “ribs”...the thing that got me was the extreme detail on the leaves in her hair. No pitting either. And last specimen sold for like $140,000.

  • bobsr
    bobsr Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
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    Well Barucci911
    You can understand the skepticism you are encountering. Not saying its justified or even legitimate. On the Board is well over 1000 years of experience and 100's of members who have spent their entire lives looking at coins and collecting with passion. Many have written articles and books on the subject. Just about everyone knows everyone else and most of us have attended shows all over this country. None of us have ever found a coin that looks that good, and if Real, I'm sure will command a LOT of pretty pennies. Suddenly a new person appears on a board that's been around for a decade and his first post is of a heretofore Non Existant Coin that virtually all of us collect or have collected at some point in our lives. As we have at least one scammer a week appear here, Its just a little hard to swallow and it's congested with jealousy because we who have looked for the holy grail haven't found it yet. Also many are excited that even at this late time in Neusmismatic History something like this can come along. If that coin does in fact turn out to be Real, It will set the collecting world on its ear and hopefully spark a new fire throughout the entire industry. I for one am (a) Happy for you. (B) excited for you , and (C) anxiously awaiting the results. Don't let us down, please keep us posted as to turn of events and Welcome to the Board.
    Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs

  • kbbpll
    kbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭
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    Look at the second, largest image in your recent post. See all those parallel lines?

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,054 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019 8:53AM
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    Not to stir up trouble. I'm not a big believer in "branch mint proofs".

    BUT

    If they did strike a proof for some commemoration, it would need a special die. Is it really impossible that the proof die didn't match known business strike VAMs?

    I'm really not sure why everyone is upset. He believes it is a proof. You believe it isn't. He obviously has a desire for it TO BE a proof. Only time will tell who is right.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    There she is.

    @Bigbuck1975 said:
    Old timer must sell on eBay.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1887-S-Uncirculated-Details-Silver-Morgan-Dollar-Awesome-Toning/183709929643?_mwBanner=1&ul_ref=https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183709929643&rvr_id=0&rvr_ts=ca254cd81690a16d90d4e90efff72c23&ul_noapp=true&pageci=e87a9518-e3a9-4952-82ae-5dee20024506

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Yes I’m looking at those now.

    @kbbpll said:
    Look at the second, largest image in your recent post. See all those parallel lines?

  • yspsales
    yspsales Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    VAMWORLD IS YOUR FRIEND

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Yes he’s extremely knowledgeable. We can’t find the VAM hub or dies used on the coin so therefore if the coin is genuine it’s one step closer to being what I think it is.

    @yspsales said:

    VAMWORLD IS YOUR FRIEND

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    What could this possibly mean?

    @Barucci911 said:

    Yes I’m looking at those now.

    @kbbpll said:
    Look at the second, largest image in your recent post. See all those parallel lines?

    @Barucci911 said:

    Yes I’m looking at those now.

    @kbbpll said:
    Look at the second, largest image in your recent post. See all those parallel lines?

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