This thread proves that new, newer, and even experienced collectors need to come here to read and observe. Post when/if you want, but darn it, soak up the free information.
Thanks to the OP's refusal to believe what he was being told we all got a good education that might help us out down the road, but that was some patience and hard work displayed by ifthevamzarockin !
You certainly earned your keep - I'll start giving all your posts a like or agree so that you get your 5th star sooner than later (not that it makes any difference having 5 stars). I'd give you one of mine but I don't know how I earned them so I might not get it back.
I wonder if anyone has proposed to the government that the best way to defeat the Chinese threat is to buy $1 items from Aliexpress and let the Chinese government go bankrupt on the shipping subsidy!
Maybe the Chinese government negotiated a great deal USPS, and it is the USPS providing a shipping subsidy.
I got this great card protector after waiting 6 weeks, but it was worth it.
Just realized insider2 has posted something related exactly to this as I was going through some of my old responses looking for a coin I've posted before.
I'll add it here as a reference link.
@Insider2 said:
Image provided by the ANA's Numismatist magazine. The anonymous writer claims that the doubling resulted from a laser used to make the counterfeit die.
Would be better if this pile of felgerkarb thread were locked and left up for educational purposes rather than poofed.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@yspsales said:
Now if I can only remember what I learned.
Not being facetious.
I did learn something that should have been obvious.
Yes, there is a lot to digest. I think I will book mark the thread and refer back to it occasionally.
One thing that sticks in my mind is the reminder that on dies which had a mintmark added separately (all older dies), identical doubling on everything (incl MM) should not occur.
Also, a “perfect strike” does not necessarily prove authenticity.
I wonder if anyone has proposed to the government that the best way to defeat the Chinese threat is to buy $1 items from Aliexpress and let the Chinese government go bankrupt on the shipping subsidy!
Maybe the Chinese government negotiated a great deal USPS, and it is the USPS providing a shipping subsidy.
I got this great card protector after waiting 6 weeks, but it was worth it.
International postal rates are determined by UPU. So, no, it is the Chinese government unless the distributor ships from a U.S. address.
I wonder if anyone has proposed to the government that the best way to defeat the Chinese threat is to buy $1 items from Aliexpress and let the Chinese government go bankrupt on the shipping subsidy!
Maybe the Chinese government negotiated a great deal USPS, and it is the USPS providing a shipping subsidy.
I got this great card protector after waiting 6 weeks, but it was worth it.
@ChrisH821 said:
Just realized insider2 has posted something related exactly to this as I was going through some of my old responses looking for a coin I've posted before.
I'll add it here as a reference link.
@Insider2 said:
Image provided by the ANA's Numismatist magazine. The anonymous writer claims that the doubling resulted from a laser used to make the counterfeit die.
Excellent catch!
Yes, this coin coupled with the @insider2 coin sort of prove two things:
1. The Chinese dies are laser cut (hence the stria on the 1887-S)
2. The Chinese need better vibration isolation in their workshops because the laser raster is creating doubled dies!!!
AND we also can get ready because:
3. Chinese counterfeiters accidentally create doubled dies which are going to start to get posted to this board by the hundreds!
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
@RogerB said:
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
But- remains a nice coin.
You might want to read the rest of the thread. Fascinating story that doesn't end with "nice coin".
@RogerB said:
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
But- remains a nice coin.
...this was the scariest part of the thread for me
@RogerB said:
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
@RogerB said:
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
But- remains a nice coin.
Oh. this is embarrassing.
Now that you have all quoted him he can't just edit it out of existence!
@jmski52 said:
Another amazing journey down the wormhole with another alt.
Actually, this thread started scary but if you follow the whole thread it was incredibly educational. It touched on issues of known die varieties and methods of manufacture and ended with the actual discovery of the source for the counterfeit.
Kudos to the entire membership who contributed to this thread. I personally thought this was a great thread that wobbled on the rails but never completely went off.
"...is that the Morgan I have shown has the strongest strike out of any Morgan I’ve seen"
I agree.
You said this several times and that's why I agreed with the others that it had to be fake. The detail on the hair above the ear and breast feathers on the reverse were sharper than and UNLIKE any proof that I have seen. It didn't look like anything that I've seen, and I've seen many, many of these dollars, too. That's exactly what makes it very suspicious.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@7Jaguars said:
I am coming to the party late, sorry. I do not like the engraving on the hair, eyes, etc. The "lesser" details are missing and the simple bits (eg hair strands) are more deeply incised into the die. I think this gives the mistaken impression that it is well struck, not to mention the more modern means counterfeiters have of producing their version of the original coins.
This is the part of just not looking right....
Totally agree with this about the hair looking off. Especially the curls of hair closest to the neck. Morgan’s aren’t my series, but the hair just looked off to me.
@kbbpll said:
I have learned a lot by observing threads like this one where it turns out to be fake. Today I learned that there is such a thing as "laser doubling".
I'm curious - if eBay intervenes on behalf of the OP and gets them a refund, do they have to return the "coin"?
@kbbpll said:
I have learned a lot by observing threads like this one where it turns out to be fake. Today I learned that there is such a thing as "laser doubling".
I'm curious - if eBay intervenes on behalf of the OP and gets them a refund, do they have to return the "coin"?
If it is a counterfeit, ebay will refund, and normally, you do not ship it back.
In some ways, that is great, others it just feeds the bear. Also, the person selling the fake is not going to pay for a $9 return label on a $2 fake. It is just the cost of doing business, losing a few along the way.
@kbbpll said:
I was curious because you would be returning a known counterfeit to a known seller of counterfeits. Sort of like "aiding and abetting" a future crime.
If the seller is intentionally selling counterfeits (accidents happen), he can get 100 new ones from Aliexpress.
While I was at ANACS we returned everything sent to us, genuine or not, except in two cases where the item turned out to be stolen and we could prove it. Those were eventually returned to the rightful owners.
I have a personal anecdote about the return of allegedly counterfeit coins. While I was working at Coin World I assembled a decent starter set of British Commonwealth type coins. My South African section included three Proof sets with gold. There was a George VI and an Elizabeth II Proof set, and I also had some nice Southern Rhodesia.
When I came to work for ANACS I decided that to avoid conflicts of interest I would sell off most of my coins (except the Honduras collection). There was a dealer who shall remain nameless who specialized in South African and Rhodesian; his ads even included a giraffe taken off of one of the coins. I contacted him and asked if I could send the two collections for an offer. He said OK so I did.
After he got the coins and looked at them he called me to say that two of the coins were overgraded, and one of the gold coins was counterfeit! He then made a lowball offer on the lot. After we discussed the coins in question I asked him if his offer included him returning the alleged counterfeit, because I would not sell a counterfeit coin. He said no, he was keeping it. I then said to return the entire lot.
He started screaming about what a crook I was and how dare I work for ANACS and he was going to expose me and ruin me. I hung up the phone and called Ed Rochette and said "Ed, we have a problem." After I told him what had happened he called the dealer and told him to send the entire lot to Seaby's in London for a neutral third opinion. He did, reluctantly, and Seaby's looked at the coins and said that the alleged counterfeit was indeed genuine, and that they agreed with my grading on the other coins. The ashpole backed down and I eventually sold the coins to somebody else.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
@Hemispherical Wow, where did you find so many Branch Mint Proofs?!?!
@JBK
Aw shucks.... ur gonna make me blush
Thank You!
This thread proves that new, newer, and even experienced collectors need to come here to read and observe. Post when/if you want, but darn it, soak up the free information.
Thanks to the OP's refusal to believe what he was being told we all got a good education that might help us out down the road, but that was some patience and hard work displayed by ifthevamzarockin !
You certainly earned your keep - I'll start giving all your posts a like or agree so that you get your 5th star sooner than later (not that it makes any difference having 5 stars). I'd give you one of mine but I don't know how I earned them so I might not get it back.
Maybe the Chinese government negotiated a great deal USPS, and it is the USPS providing a shipping subsidy.
I got this great card protector after waiting 6 weeks, but it was worth it.
https://ebay.com/itm/Retro-1881-E-Pluribus-Unum-Nackter-weiblicher-Schütze-Silberdollar-1-Silbermü/113470528652?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
This one has to be a record!
Less than 24 hours on the site and 1.2K views with 156 comments. Wow!
Now if I can only remember what I learned.
Not being facetious.
I did learn something that should have been obvious.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Just realized insider2 has posted something related exactly to this as I was going through some of my old responses looking for a coin I've posted before.
I'll add it here as a reference link.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12231358/#Comment_12231358
Collector, occasional seller
Shape of o in god seems off to this non expert.
Would be better if this pile of felgerkarb thread were locked and left up for educational purposes rather than poofed.
TD
Yes, there is a lot to digest. I think I will book mark the thread and refer back to it occasionally.
One thing that sticks in my mind is the reminder that on dies which had a mintmark added separately (all older dies), identical doubling on everything (incl MM) should not occur.
Also, a “perfect strike” does not necessarily prove authenticity.
Neg the seller.
International postal rates are determined by UPU. So, no, it is the Chinese government unless the distributor ships from a U.S. address.
upu.int/en/activities/transport/basic-rate-and-internal-air-conveyance-rates.html
ooo...Chinese hobo dollars!
Excellent catch!
Yes, this coin coupled with the @insider2 coin sort of prove two things:
1. The Chinese dies are laser cut (hence the stria on the 1887-S)
2. The Chinese need better vibration isolation in their workshops because the laser raster is creating doubled dies!!!
AND we also can get ready because:
3. Chinese counterfeiters accidentally create doubled dies which are going to start to get posted to this board by the hundreds!
ABSOLUTELY a perfect match from the marks under the eagle's chin to the doubling and to the obverse look and patina.
bob
Nope. Nicely detailed, but not struck on a medal press (SF didn't have one), not properly polished for a proof (SF used lime to resurface dies and never polishing rouge), not a proof.
But- remains a nice coin.
Ain't that the truth!
Not sure what stretch of logic got him to, "It doesn't look like any other Morgan I've ever seen....therefore it must be real!!"
You might want to read the rest of the thread. Fascinating story that doesn't end with "nice coin".
...this was the scariest part of the thread for me
you mean, giving the forum emotional distress money!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Oh. this is embarrassing.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
AT.
Reminds me, did the OP weigh the coin? Silver-plated copper would be easy to distinguish. I thought that all the tests had been run.
I knew it would happen.
Now that you have all quoted him he can't just edit it out of existence!
Another amazing journey down the wormhole with another alt.
I knew it would happen.
Yes he weighed it. But those are actually struck in silver...which is why they aren't $1.14 like the cheap ones.
Actually, this thread started scary but if you follow the whole thread it was incredibly educational. It touched on issues of known die varieties and methods of manufacture and ended with the actual discovery of the source for the counterfeit.
Kudos to the entire membership who contributed to this thread. I personally thought this was a great thread that wobbled on the rails but never completely went off.
Makes me want to buy a few counterfeit Morgans just for educational purposes.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
dont do it. dont feed the hand that may single handedly take down the industry.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Is there an apple badge for the teacher?
Oh, I'm amazed by the expertise here. No doubt about that.
I knew it would happen.
Agreed. Whether it’s genuine or not, the toning is artificial.
Didn’t read full thread before posting.
I now see it is confirmed fake.
Have I read this thread before???
"...is that the Morgan I have shown has the strongest strike out of any Morgan I’ve seen"
I agree.
You said this several times and that's why I agreed with the others that it had to be fake. The detail on the hair above the ear and breast feathers on the reverse were sharper than and UNLIKE any proof that I have seen. It didn't look like anything that I've seen, and I've seen many, many of these dollars, too. That's exactly what makes it very suspicious.
Totally agree with this about the hair looking off. Especially the curls of hair closest to the neck. Morgan’s aren’t my series, but the hair just looked off to me.
I have learned a lot by observing threads like this one where it turns out to be fake. Today I learned that there is such a thing as "laser doubling".
I'm curious - if eBay intervenes on behalf of the OP and gets them a refund, do they have to return the "coin"?
Obviously fake.
It's your money to waste though.
If they didn't, wouldn't it be stealing?
Usually. You don't get the money and the item.
If it is a counterfeit, ebay will refund, and normally, you do not ship it back.
In some ways, that is great, others it just feeds the bear. Also, the person selling the fake is not going to pay for a $9 return label on a $2 fake. It is just the cost of doing business, losing a few along the way.
I was curious because you would be returning a known counterfeit to a known seller of counterfeits. Sort of like "aiding and abetting" a future crime.
What a great thread! Appreciate the enthusiasm of the OP. I thought I cherried a MPL Lincoln... and I was a bit older than 19!
Also really appreciate those who (gently) educated the OP.
My current "Box of 20"
If the seller is intentionally selling counterfeits (accidents happen), he can get 100 new ones from Aliexpress.
Is that Chinese? Nice workmanship. Could be Gallery Mint
Hair and breast feather detail incredible. As in unbelievable.
I'll take a 33-S Walker any day
Did we ever look for 33-S walkers on AliExpress?
From the new branch Mint -> Shanghai
Well, if there is one thing I learned here today, its that Ali Baba and his 40 Thieves are alive and very busy.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Occam’s Razor.
While I was at ANACS we returned everything sent to us, genuine or not, except in two cases where the item turned out to be stolen and we could prove it. Those were eventually returned to the rightful owners.
I have a personal anecdote about the return of allegedly counterfeit coins. While I was working at Coin World I assembled a decent starter set of British Commonwealth type coins. My South African section included three Proof sets with gold. There was a George VI and an Elizabeth II Proof set, and I also had some nice Southern Rhodesia.
When I came to work for ANACS I decided that to avoid conflicts of interest I would sell off most of my coins (except the Honduras collection). There was a dealer who shall remain nameless who specialized in South African and Rhodesian; his ads even included a giraffe taken off of one of the coins. I contacted him and asked if I could send the two collections for an offer. He said OK so I did.
After he got the coins and looked at them he called me to say that two of the coins were overgraded, and one of the gold coins was counterfeit! He then made a lowball offer on the lot. After we discussed the coins in question I asked him if his offer included him returning the alleged counterfeit, because I would not sell a counterfeit coin. He said no, he was keeping it. I then said to return the entire lot.
He started screaming about what a crook I was and how dare I work for ANACS and he was going to expose me and ruin me. I hung up the phone and called Ed Rochette and said "Ed, we have a problem." After I told him what had happened he called the dealer and told him to send the entire lot to Seaby's in London for a neutral third opinion. He did, reluctantly, and Seaby's looked at the coins and said that the alleged counterfeit was indeed genuine, and that they agreed with my grading on the other coins. The ashpole backed down and I eventually sold the coins to somebody else.
200!