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Newly found branch mint proof specimen?? TAKE A LOOK!
Barucci911
Posts: 63 ✭
I picked this up from an old timer a couple days ago, the coin immediately stood out to me, sharpest 1887-S details I have ever seen, odd luster, hammered rims..I truly do believe that this is a Branch mint Proof or specimen !!!. What do you guys think?? Posted a pic of a side by side a side by side with a Pcgs MS63 1887-S... this coin weighs what it should and passes the ring test, this is not a counterfeit, metal content has been analyzed, I’ve been staring at this and comparing it to other 87-S and everything seems spot on.
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Maybe it's just me or the angle you are holding it or the lighting, but it looks like a counterfeit.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Welcome & great job starting your own thread
" this coin weighs what it should and passes the ring test, this is not a counterfeit! "
Have you tried to Vam it?
Have you compared the 8's in the date and date placement?
The 1 looks slightly high and looks kind of narrow?
The R of Pluribus seems to have a short leg?
Seems there may be come type of grain or texture on the face that doesn't look like common roller & weak strike issues.
Have you compared the Mint Mark? The S looks off.
Have you compared the letters in IGWT to another coin?
Have you checked what reverse hub/die your coin should have?
Your reverse die has a doubled die, that should make it fairly easy to track down a Vam and confirm it is genuine.
It’s not a counterfeit, all tests have been done, it looks so unique because it is, that’s why I believe it is a specimen or branch mint proof.
This post makes it very clear that it will be difficult to reason with you.
Your coin appears to be counterfeit.
That’s what I’m having trouble with now, I can’t identify the VAM out of the 8 hubs to choose from...shed some light on this for me?
There’s a mint mark.
I am more than open to reason on this one @ilikemonsters ... why would a counterfeit have the strongest and most crisp strike I’ve seen on any 1887 Morgan dollar, including PL, DMPL and proofs? If you can prove to me that’s its a counterfeit besides saying it looks off than I’m willing to listen
That’s why I believe it is a branch mint proof or specimen...look at the 1878s in SP65 for example.
Okay... just slow down a bit. If we take this one step at a time it will be much easier.
We can track down the Vam to confirm everything. But we only need to find one thing that confirms it is not genuine. If it is not genuine it will not have a Vam number anyway.
Start with the 8's in the date. Look at the shape of the inside loops.
Look at the 1 in the date, it looks like it is not quite the same shape.
We will start there.
Taking a closer look now, don’t see a problem with the 1 or 7, the 8s do look a little more round than your average 1887
Letters, numbers and denticals are more defined and squared off on proofs.
Here’s a better photo
Now check your Mint Mark. Make sure it looks exactly like one here.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1887-S_Reverses
Next look at the letters in IGWT you will see how they are rounded off the fields. Take any other Morgan you have and see how the lettering is flat.
Still can’t identifty anything, isn’t there still a posibility that if this is a branch mint proof or specimen the die of wouldn’t be known about yet?
"isn’t there still a posibility that if this is a branch mint proof or specimen the die of wouldn’t be known about yet?"
Things are not looking good
Please follow along.... check your IGWT.
Do you have another 1887 Morgan to compare with?
If so are you not seeing the difference between the two?
It's okay if they both aren't S mint marks.
If a coin passes a number of tests (such as XRF), this still does not prove it is not a counterfeit.
If it fails a test, then it is counterfeit.
But if it passes a number of tests, that is inconclusive.
There is no such thing as "all" tests; it is more like a small number of standard low cost tests.
For example, a counterfeiter could take a genuine coin and strike it with counterfeit dies.
It would pass all the weight and metal composition tests, but would not be genuine.
I agree with that, yet how would a counterfierter make a better strike than the US mint I’d he was to use a cast? This looks like a Daniel Carr token it’s so darn detailed. Why would the counterfeiter go through so much trouble to fake a semi met date too is what I would be wondering. IS it out of the realm of possibility for this to be a specimen?
Compare
Comparing the two now, not seeing anything out of the ordinary.
Compat
If you click on the photo I posted it will enlarge.
The only difference I’m seeing is the 8s, plus my coin has a stronger strike than an MS66+... kind of odd unless it’s a special coin, how would a counterfeiter get his hands on something higher quality than the US mints die hubs, plus what would he have faked a cast of? An MS70 1887-S Lol
Casting is not used to make a (good) transfer die.
There should be some posts or videos on methods like electrotyping and spark erosion which create fairly accurate transfer dies.
Many prooflike Morgan dollars exist. Probably the best way to learn would be to have a prooflike, and proof in hand to example details like the rim and reeding up close.
Let's see a better photo of your mint mark.
" The only difference I’m seeing is the 8s, "
That is all you need to see.
Looking at it again, I’m not seeing any differences
'" Why would the counterfeiter go through so much trouble "
Cuz it cost em' about 25 cents to make em' in China.
Understood, yet I still don’t get how the coin counterfeiter would be able to create an even stronger strike
LOL!
Do you see anything wrong with that mint mark?
Still not seeing any evidence Of a fake
The whole reverse die is doubled everywhere.
What does this mean? I notice the S ming May have some doubling.
Does your mint mark match exactly to one in the link I provided?
I noticed that as well.
Extremely strong doubling.
None like this that I am aware of.
Several reverses for 1887-S have rather minor doubling; nothing like this though.
VAM 7 high s is the only similar
" only similar "
Size and shape are wrong, and similar doesn't cut it.
You have plenty of info to do some more research.
Another thing you can check is your reed count.
Have you looked for yourself I’m not a VAM professional, I still don’t see anything that’s not matching up, everything looks good... the VAM I pointed out is correct
Reed count, brilliant idea, how many should I be looking for?
I have not looked because there will be no Vam listing for it.
What method would you be using for your reed count?
So you’re saying it’s a fake, I’m just asking the reasoning behind it. What is triggered off in your head that goes “this is fake” . I know I sound arrogant over text but I’m not trying to be just want your opinion and reasoning.
I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em.
Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.