The mint mark would have been applied to the die after the design. If the reverse die is doubled the mint mark would not be doubled in the same rotation as the die.
Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em.
Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.
Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em.
Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.
Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em.
Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.
Surely doubling of this magnitude would have been noticed by now, but you never know. I can't explain how a counterfeiter would end up with this kind of doubling. I am troubled by the perfectly parallel lines across the obverse portrait, when I zoom in on the hand-held image. I'm just an observer.
Really starting to see that now... all of “states” and “dollar” is doubled.
@kbbpll said:
Surely doubling of this magnitude would have been noticed by now, but you never know. I can't explain how a counterfeiter would end up with this kind of doubling. I am troubled by the perfectly parallel lines across the obverse portrait, when I zoom in on the hand-held image. I'm just an observer.
@Barucci911 said:
I agree with that, yet how would a counterfierter make a better strike than the US mint I’d he was to use a cast? This looks like a Daniel Carr token it’s so darn detailed. Why would the counterfeiter go through so much trouble to fake a semi met date too is what I would be wondering. IS it out of the realm of possibility for this to be a specimen?
@Barucci911 said:
It’s not a counterfeit, all tests have been done...
If a coin passes a number of tests (such as XRF), this still does not prove it is not a counterfeit.
If it fails a test, then it is counterfeit.
But if it passes all tests, that is inconclusive.
For example, a counterfeiter could take a genuine coin and strike it with counterfeit dies.
It would pass all the weight and metal composition tests, but would not be genuine.
Lol so because @ifthevamzarockin says a coin is fake it’s fake??? That doesn’t hold or count as evidence, so what’s wrong with the coin we throughly went through it and yacht found anything off.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I have to know what a counterfeit looks like so I don't buy em.
submit it to PCGS and report back with the results.
There have been valid points raised by members here... The doubled reverse, the MM etc...We look forward to hearing the results of your submission.... Cheers, RickO
I wonder what the reactions would have been if pictures of the coin had been posted and the OP had merely asked for opinions of the coin, without saying anything about "branch mint proof?.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
I wonder what the reactions would have been if pictures of the coin had been posted and the OP had merely asked for opinions of the coin, without saying anything about "branch mint proof?.
My reaction would be the same no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck.......
@MFeld said:
I wonder what the reactions would have been if pictures of the coin had been posted and the OP had merely asked for opinions of the coin, without saying anything about "branch mint proof?.
My reaction would be the same no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck.......
Sir Bedevere: And why do ducks float in water?
Villager 1: B-b-because they're made of wood?
Sir Bedevere: Goooood.
Villager 2: So, if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood!
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
All the villagers in unison: A WITCH! BURN HER! BURN HER!
@jtlee321 said:
I might be mistaken, but for some reason I doubt it.
I don’t think so. This is a real poster as he’s known to the Instagram community (I’ve seen this Morgan on there several times now and no rabbits were involved ).
The only way this will be settled is when we all find out what the TPGs say.
There are no documented reverse dies with that mint mark position and certainly no DDR listings. What you have is a die struck counterfeit. The lack of cartwheel lustre is a dead giveaway beyond non-existent details. Luckily the counterfeiters have not been able to replicate cartwheel lustre, yet....
Lol you’re salty, really all I have to say at the end of this is that.
1.) The coin is proper weight.
2.) The coin has correct dimensions.
3.) The coin has the strongest strike on a Morgan I’ve ever seen. Stringer strike than any 87-S you can look up out there.
4.) doubling on reverse, Raised mint mark,
5.) no die hub or VAM can be found for this Morgan because it is unique....
Last questions:
1.) How could such a Morgan be faked with doubling and such a perfect strike. I’d like to see examples of a fake like this one.
2.) if this is fake, wouldn’t this be the best fake anyone has ever see?
3.) why not fake an 1889-CC of this quality, why a semi key date?
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Next you will tell us it did not grade because of artificial toning but it was a genuine Branch Mint proof.
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
I paid $250, the seller told me this was from his great uncles collection and his aunt gave it to him for helping out clearing out the house after the great uncle had passed, he said this was the best in his collection.
@kbbpll said:
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
Seller is a member of PMG, PCGS, ANA.... he was a pretty knowledgeable collector, I just don’t think he thought about a BMP... what do you mean by “ribs”...the thing that got me was the extreme detail on the leaves in her hair. No pitting either. And last specimen sold for like $140,000.
Well Barucci911
You can understand the skepticism you are encountering. Not saying its justified or even legitimate. On the Board is well over 1000 years of experience and 100's of members who have spent their entire lives looking at coins and collecting with passion. Many have written articles and books on the subject. Just about everyone knows everyone else and most of us have attended shows all over this country. None of us have ever found a coin that looks that good, and if Real, I'm sure will command a LOT of pretty pennies. Suddenly a new person appears on a board that's been around for a decade and his first post is of a heretofore Non Existant Coin that virtually all of us collect or have collected at some point in our lives. As we have at least one scammer a week appear here, Its just a little hard to swallow and it's congested with jealousy because we who have looked for the holy grail haven't found it yet. Also many are excited that even at this late time in Neusmismatic History something like this can come along. If that coin does in fact turn out to be Real, It will set the collecting world on its ear and hopefully spark a new fire throughout the entire industry. I for one am (a) Happy for you. (B) excited for you , and (C) anxiously awaiting the results. Don't let us down, please keep us posted as to turn of events and Welcome to the Board.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
Not to stir up trouble. I'm not a big believer in "branch mint proofs".
BUT
If they did strike a proof for some commemoration, it would need a special die. Is it really impossible that the proof die didn't match known business strike VAMs?
I'm really not sure why everyone is upset. He believes it is a proof. You believe it isn't. He obviously has a desire for it TO BE a proof. Only time will tell who is right.
Yes he’s extremely knowledgeable. We can’t find the VAM hub or dies used on the coin so therefore if the coin is genuine it’s one step closer to being what I think it is.
I paid $250, the seller told me this was from his great uncles collection and his aunt gave it to him for helping out clearing out the house after the great uncle had passed, he said this was the best in his collection.
@kbbpll said:
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
Funny, I don't see anything about a great uncle in the ebay listing.
Comments
The mint mark would have been applied to the die after the design. If the reverse die is doubled the mint mark would not be doubled in the same rotation as the die.
Well then you should just pony up and send it in to our host for grading.
That’s the plan we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow; was just trying to snow the coin off and hear opinions before grading.
I know you have not been able to do a reed count in between your posts.
" we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow "
Please come back for an update.... with photos.
Working on that right now
That’s the plan we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow; was just trying to snow the coin off and hear opinions before grading.
Surely doubling of this magnitude would have been noticed by now, but you never know. I can't explain how a counterfeiter would end up with this kind of doubling. I am troubled by the perfectly parallel lines across the obverse portrait, when I zoom in on the hand-held image. I'm just an observer.
Really starting to see that now... all of “states” and “dollar” is doubled.
I might be mistaken, but for some reason I doubt it.
I was starting to wonder the same thing.... is it wabbit season?
I'm out of carrots & bullets
Yes, this.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
because you bought it.
@Barucci911
You appear to be convinced you have something unique here, I would send it to our host for authentication and grading.
Cheers
Bob
submit it to PCGS and report back with the results.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Walk through: $150 - $300
Let us know your results.
There have been valid points raised by members here... The doubled reverse, the MM etc...We look forward to hearing the results of your submission.... Cheers, RickO
>
>
Consider what you yourself are saying.
Very informative thread. Thank you to @ifthevamzarockin for their patience and expertise.
I wonder what the reactions would have been if pictures of the coin had been posted and the OP had merely asked for opinions of the coin, without saying anything about "branch mint proof?.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
lmao. I had the same thought.
I also wonder if 2 of the people on this thread are alts.
My reaction would be the same no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck.......
Sir Bedevere: And why do ducks float in water?
Villager 1: B-b-because they're made of wood?
Sir Bedevere: Goooood.
Villager 2: So, if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood!
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
All the villagers in unison: A WITCH! BURN HER! BURN HER!
I don’t think so. This is a real poster as he’s known to the Instagram community (I’ve seen this Morgan on there several times now and no rabbits were involved
).
The only way this will be settled is when we all find out what the TPGs say.
There are no documented reverse dies with that mint mark position and certainly no DDR listings. What you have is a die struck counterfeit. The lack of cartwheel lustre is a dead giveaway beyond non-existent details. Luckily the counterfeiters have not been able to replicate cartwheel lustre, yet....
Maybe it's a branch mint proof.
Next?
Here are some more pics, natural sunlight. Gonna try and have this really photographed professionally soon.
e
o
Still doing the walk through today?
If so you should be able to post photos by 5 or 6 of it in it's new PCGS holder.
How did your reed count turn out?
@Barucci911
We are awaiting for the results after you walk it through.
Gonna be shipped out today.
Here are some more pics, natural sunlight. Gonna try and have this really photographed professionally soon.
e
o
"Gonna be shipped out today."
What happened to the walk through?
It’s going through the walk through tier. I usually use NGC but I’m choosing PC for this.
There’s no show grading at Pittsburg
Guess you didn't know that when you posted this last night?
" we’ll do a walk through sub tomorrow "
Next you will tell us it did not grade because of artificial toning but it was a genuine Branch Mint proof.
Lol you’re salty, really all I have to say at the end of this is that.
1.) The coin is proper weight.
2.) The coin has correct dimensions.
3.) The coin has the strongest strike on a Morgan I’ve ever seen. Stringer strike than any 87-S you can look up out there.
4.) doubling on reverse, Raised mint mark,
5.) no die hub or VAM can be found for this Morgan because it is unique....
Last questions:
1.) How could such a Morgan be faked with doubling and such a perfect strike. I’d like to see examples of a fake like this one.
2.) if this is fake, wouldn’t this be the best fake anyone has ever see?
3.) why not fake an 1889-CC of this quality, why a semi key date?
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
Edit: Not sure what you mean by "unique". Here is a PL on Heritage - https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1887-s-1-ms64-deep-mirror-prooflike-pcgs/a/1205-30170.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515.
I paid $250, the seller told me this was from his great uncles collection and his aunt gave it to him for helping out clearing out the house after the great uncle had passed, he said this was the best in his collection.
Seller is a member of PMG, PCGS, ANA.... he was a pretty knowledgeable collector, I just don’t think he thought about a BMP... what do you mean by “ribs”...the thing that got me was the extreme detail on the leaves in her hair. No pitting either. And last specimen sold for like $140,000.
Old timer must sell on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1887-S-Uncirculated-Details-Silver-Morgan-Dollar-Awesome-Toning/183709929643?_mwBanner=1&ul_ref=https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183709929643&rvr_id=0&rvr_ts=ca254cd81690a16d90d4e90efff72c23&ul_noapp=true&pageci=e87a9518-e3a9-4952-82ae-5dee20024506
Well Barucci911
You can understand the skepticism you are encountering. Not saying its justified or even legitimate. On the Board is well over 1000 years of experience and 100's of members who have spent their entire lives looking at coins and collecting with passion. Many have written articles and books on the subject. Just about everyone knows everyone else and most of us have attended shows all over this country. None of us have ever found a coin that looks that good, and if Real, I'm sure will command a LOT of pretty pennies. Suddenly a new person appears on a board that's been around for a decade and his first post is of a heretofore Non Existant Coin that virtually all of us collect or have collected at some point in our lives. As we have at least one scammer a week appear here, Its just a little hard to swallow and it's congested with jealousy because we who have looked for the holy grail haven't found it yet. Also many are excited that even at this late time in Neusmismatic History something like this can come along. If that coin does in fact turn out to be Real, It will set the collecting world on its ear and hopefully spark a new fire throughout the entire industry. I for one am (a) Happy for you. (B) excited for you , and (C) anxiously awaiting the results. Don't let us down, please keep us posted as to turn of events and Welcome to the Board.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
Look at the second, largest image in your recent post. See all those parallel lines?
Not to stir up trouble. I'm not a big believer in "branch mint proofs".
BUT
If they did strike a proof for some commemoration, it would need a special die. Is it really impossible that the proof die didn't match known business strike VAMs?
I'm really not sure why everyone is upset. He believes it is a proof. You believe it isn't. He obviously has a desire for it TO BE a proof. Only time will tell who is right.
There she is.
Yes I’m looking at those now.
VAMWORLD IS YOUR FRIEND
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes he’s extremely knowledgeable. We can’t find the VAM hub or dies used on the coin so therefore if the coin is genuine it’s one step closer to being what I think it is.
Funny, I don't see anything about a great uncle in the ebay listing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1887-S-Uncirculated-Details-Silver-Morgan-Dollar-Awesome-Toning-/183709929643?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
What could this possibly mean?