Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?
ms70
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Since we can judge the color with our own eyes and over time the color can change, should RD, RB, and BN designations for copper be put to rest?
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Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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There is a BIG difference between the BN, RB, and RD!!!!!!
Don't need another big shock to the system, although I personally wouldn't care.
Although there are many red-Browns that are spectacular look at, there's still a big difference between a brown and a red.
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Absolutely not! For proper market pricing this designation is needed!
While the line between the three is getting more blurred all the time I see no reason to change.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I was on the fence. Since we CAN see it ourselves, either 'yes' or 'I don't care' indicate pretty much the same thing.
I have a "RB" coin that I would now call "B", so having it FOREVER on the holder does seem a little iffy....
Is a RD-designated Large Cent still RD after it has turned RB or BN?
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Huge price (and pop) differences
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Wont all copper eventually turn brown? If so... what is the point of a color aspect to grading?
Yes.. If PCGS no longer guarantees the color and the color can change, what's the point?
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Don't care.
The Registry people want to play the game, and TPG's makes gobs of money on designating color, so it's not gonna' change.
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They should add BL for blue!
They won’t always be red
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
There is no real standard for designating the colors. It is just another opinion.
I voted yes, but just partially. Get rid of the RB designation.
Jim
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In fact, should be expanded:
red, redredbrown, redbrown, brownredbrown, and brown
and some way to distinguish blue color that is off the charts with out simply saying just plain ol brown. I have a 77, that is simply dynamite with magenta/ blue . its in a brown holder, but worth far more value than just a brown coin of the same grade. In fact, one of the leading indian cent dealers told me its one of the nicest eye-appealing 77's he has seen for the grade. just simply outstanding.
I also Might add, years ago, I believe it was shylock posted a 64-L that was alike a 66Brown that was off the charts in eye-appeal dept, because of the other colors in the piece designated the bN.
Yes. Fairly meaningless designation. Not unlike the TPGs trying to designate silver coins as White.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/983611/why-grade-copper-coins-rd-rb-or-bn#latest
Edit: could've sworn I hit the YES button
My avatar agrees!
For the thread topic I say keep it the way it is. I can see both sides but keeping them separate shows us the rarity of certain coins in red. We can obviously see which coins are actually red when looking at them but knowing how many more there are is solid info when paying a premium for a red coin.
I don't think it would be fair to those who have paid up for the Red coins.
Yes, No discernible standard exists and I've seen too many that I disagree with, so much so, I stopped buying RB, Rd, copper
No. The price difference will cause this to never happen.
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Old copper is supposed to be brown because of the chemistry, right?
I did not vote because brown looks better (IMHO), and I don't want to hurt any of the red copper fans feelings.
I just love the looks of a SMOOTH BROWN copper coin in the morning...............
that should be hashed out between the seller/buyer/owner. jmo &fwiw
No, its a way of communicating the look of a coin and is necessary in the market place.
No
maybe PCGS should just designate a "Fully Red" coin as RD and everything else with just a grade. then let the open market-place decide on an appropriate price.
Why not eliminate grades altogether!
The color designation is an important indicator of value. Whether you agree with the TPG’s color assignment does not matter. If the TPG can’t grade the color on a Mint State coin, why bother to pay the fees and send it in for grading?
P hall is right. It just spins up collectors and empowers dealers and encourages people not to use their eyes. It means nothing
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I voted no. Don't drop it it just use it with CONSISTENCY... something that (like all designations) has thus far eluded the Gods
They don't guarantee the color so why bother? Half of the time the color designation doesn't follow published standards anyway (>95% full red required for a RD designation, and <5% full red for a BN designation).
That might not be as crazy as you imply. There would be no more grade inflation. People would need to actually use their eyes to discern quality and no more plastic and foil crutches. Artificial premiums due to labels would vanish. No more artificial registry premium... I'm liking the idea more and more. We can go back to the early 70s when TPGS only guaranteed authenticity and when there were four MS grades (crap-MS60, meh-MS63, nice-MS65, and superb-MS67 and MS70s don't really exist).
Trying to look at it objectively, I'm not sure why color would be treated any differently than other characteristics such as luster and strike. But for some reason it is.
I purchased an 1871 PCGS proof 65 Brn 2 Cent Piece at the CSNS last April (actually it was a trade for a PCGS 1871 proof 65 RB 2 Cent Piece)
One dealer actually said that he needed my coin and another $200 because his PCGS proof 65 Brn coin was so superior (my coin had a green CAC sticker and his did not)
I found another dealer with a PCGS 1871 BRN proof and offered up my coin for an even steven trade...……...after he took a quick look at my coin I saw his eyes just lite up.
I now have his coin in my collection and I think that we are both happy.
Even without a guarantee on copper I think the color designation is useful. There's some old red copper out there. The older the slab generation the more valuable the color is to me.
Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?
YES!
Squeeze me?
Where the heck did the option of eliminating grades come into play?
Methinks they should add orange and green. Have seen plenty of those in my days. Orange would be on the high end above red, and green on the low end between brown and RB, in some instances.
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Very interesting idea... first time I've seen it discussed.
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Let's face it. MOST people cannot grade even though many think they can.
The TPG's business model revolves around this fact. They take most of the debate out of what the coin grades and hence some indicator of value.
I do not favor removing the designation.
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Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The color designation gives a rough picture of how the coin looked when the grading service saw it. With no color designation, the buyer has no idea how much or how fast the coin has changed since being holdered.
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I checked 'no.' Yes, the standards have changed over time. If you want a RB designation, expect 20% RD. On Old Copper, I stick to mellowed RD coins which are now 70-80% RD. Most coins designated RD imo are either mellowed, are too blotchy, or have too much brown for my comfort level.
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A more useful designation would be percentage of full red left. By definition, RB copper takes up 90% of the scale (<5% RD = BN; >95% RD = RD). That's a huge span.
Since the definition is not applied consistently, we still have no idea. That 85% RD coin in a RD holder might have been slabbed that way or it might have met the 95% red threshold and turned in the holder.
I voted YES, but with qualification as follows............
Because the TPG's are very discriminatory to not only nicely toned coins but to a greater extent RD coins. I have submitted many Raw IHC proofs, and the ones that are RD always come back Questionable Color and the toned coins always grade as BN or RB. I somewhat agree with PCGS on this issue........most RD coins are QC. Copper coins over 100 years old cannot be Mint "RD" and any TPG opinion can only be interpreted as highly subjective. Large cents are incredibly rare graded RD.
The grading standard for copper coins over 100 years old should be RB or BN. RD is not an acceptable grade for old copper.
OINK
So electric blue is okay to you (other threads), but red is suspect?
PCGS should drop the color designations if they want people to start sending their red copper to NGC.
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@cameonut2011
Most of my blue IHC's look BN except when angled to the light. This is not in my interpretation of your post as "electric" blue.
RD IHC's usually sell at significant premium to Blue IHC's. Question is....do you really think that TPG's opinion grading RD vs RB is credible? Thus they grade RAW/RD as Genuine with Questionable Color. Means to me that they do not know the difference between RD and RB. QC is a BS opinion that I should have to pay for????
But IHC's toned blue are always straight graded as BN. Go figure.
OINK
If killing off the color guarantee didn't lead to a mass exodus, do you thinking finishing off two letters on a label will change the calculus that much? Registry sets?