Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?

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ms70
ms70 Posts: 13,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 1, 2019 4:22PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Since we can judge the color with our own eyes and over time the color can change, should RD, RB, and BN designations for copper be put to rest?

Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?

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  • shorecoll
    shorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Don't need another big shock to the system, although I personally wouldn't care.

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • Walkerfan
    Walkerfan Posts: 10,391 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Although there are many red-Browns that are spectacular look at, there's still a big difference between a brown and a red.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • Cougar1978
    Cougar1978 Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Absolutely not! For proper market pricing this designation is needed!

    Investor
  • coinbuf
    coinbuf Posts: 12,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    While the line between the three is getting more blurred all the time I see no reason to change.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • TommyType
    TommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019 5:47PM
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    Don't care

    I was on the fence. Since we CAN see it ourselves, either 'yes' or 'I don't care' indicate pretty much the same thing.

    I have a "RB" coin that I would now call "B", so having it FOREVER on the holder does seem a little iffy....

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • Aotearoa
    Aotearoa Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    Is a RD-designated Large Cent still RD after it has turned RB or BN?

    Smitten with DBLCs.

  • WingedLiberty1957
    WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Huge price (and pop) differences

    My Coin Blog
    My Toned Lincoln Registry Set

  • SkyMan
    SkyMan Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Don't care

    Don't care.

    The Registry people want to play the game, and TPG's makes gobs of money on designating color, so it's not gonna' change.

    Toned Franklins

    U.S. Type Set
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    They should add BL for blue!

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • jabba
    jabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    They won’t always be red


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    There is no real standard for designating the colors. It is just another opinion.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • jesbroken
    jesbroken Posts: 11,252 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I voted yes, but just partially. Get rid of the RB designation.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • jdimmick
    jdimmick Posts: 9,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019 6:46PM
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    No

    In fact, should be expanded:

    red, redredbrown, redbrown, brownredbrown, and brown
    and some way to distinguish blue color that is off the charts with out simply saying just plain ol brown. I have a 77, that is simply dynamite with magenta/ blue . its in a brown holder, but worth far more value than just a brown coin of the same grade. In fact, one of the leading indian cent dealers told me its one of the nicest eye-appealing 77's he has seen for the grade. just simply outstanding.

    I also Might add, years ago, I believe it was shylock posted a 64-L that was alike a 66Brown that was off the charts in eye-appeal dept, because of the other colors in the piece designated the bN.

  • Ronyahski
    Ronyahski Posts: 3,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019 6:59PM
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    No

    Yes. Fairly meaningless designation. Not unlike the TPGs trying to designate silver coins as White.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/983611/why-grade-copper-coins-rd-rb-or-bn#latest

    Edit: could've sworn I hit the YES button

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • PhilLynott
    PhilLynott Posts: 900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019 7:17PM
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    No

    @Zoins said:
    They should add BL for blue!

    My avatar agrees!

    For the thread topic I say keep it the way it is. I can see both sides but keeping them separate shows us the rarity of certain coins in red. We can obviously see which coins are actually red when looking at them but knowing how many more there are is solid info when paying a premium for a red coin.

  • DIMEMAN
    DIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    I don't think it would be fair to those who have paid up for the Red coins.

  • Soldi
    Soldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    Yes, No discernible standard exists and I've seen too many that I disagree with, so much so, I stopped buying RB, Rd, copper

  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    No. The price difference will cause this to never happen.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • Raybo
    Raybo Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Old copper is supposed to be brown because of the chemistry, right?
    I did not vote because brown looks better (IMHO), and I don't want to hurt any of the red copper fans feelings.

    I just love the looks of a SMOOTH BROWN copper coin in the morning............... ;)

  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    that should be hashed out between the seller/buyer/owner. jmo &fwiw

  • Josh32
    Josh32 Posts: 138 ✭✭✭
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    No

    No, its a way of communicating the look of a coin and is necessary in the market place.

  • jt88
    jt88 Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    No

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    maybe PCGS should just designate a "Fully Red" coin as RD and everything else with just a grade. then let the open market-place decide on an appropriate price.

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    The color designation is an important indicator of value. Whether you agree with the TPG’s color assignment does not matter. If the TPG can’t grade the color on a Mint State coin, why bother to pay the fees and send it in for grading?

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Crypto
    Crypto Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Don't care

    @PerryHall said:
    Yes.. If PCGS no longer guarantees the color and the color can change, what's the point?

    P hall is right. It just spins up collectors and empowers dealers and encourages people not to use their eyes. It means nothing

    11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set

  • georgiacop50
    georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
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    No

    I voted no. Don't drop it it just use it with CONSISTENCY... something that (like all designations) has thus far eluded the Gods

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    They don't guarantee the color so why bother? Half of the time the color designation doesn't follow published standards anyway (>95% full red required for a RD designation, and <5% full red for a BN designation).

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019 9:26PM
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    Yes

    @EagleEye said:
    Why not eliminate grades altogether!

    That might not be as crazy as you imply. There would be no more grade inflation. People would need to actually use their eyes to discern quality and no more plastic and foil crutches. Artificial premiums due to labels would vanish. No more artificial registry premium... I'm liking the idea more and more. We can go back to the early 70s when TPGS only guaranteed authenticity and when there were four MS grades (crap-MS60, meh-MS63, nice-MS65, and superb-MS67 and MS70s don't really exist).

  • Davideo
    Davideo Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭✭
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    Don't care

    Trying to look at it objectively, I'm not sure why color would be treated any differently than other characteristics such as luster and strike. But for some reason it is.

  • Raybo
    Raybo Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019 10:49PM
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    I purchased an 1871 PCGS proof 65 Brn 2 Cent Piece at the CSNS last April (actually it was a trade for a PCGS 1871 proof 65 RB 2 Cent Piece)

    One dealer actually said that he needed my coin and another $200 because his PCGS proof 65 Brn coin was so superior (my coin had a green CAC sticker and his did not)

    I found another dealer with a PCGS 1871 BRN proof and offered up my coin for an even steven trade...……...after he took a quick look at my coin I saw his eyes just lite up.

    I now have his coin in my collection and I think that we are both happy.

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Even without a guarantee on copper I think the color designation is useful. There's some old red copper out there. The older the slab generation the more valuable the color is to me.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Raybo
    Raybo Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Should PCGS Drop the Color Designations for Copper?

    YES!

  • Raybo
    Raybo Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @EagleEye said:
    Why not eliminate grades altogether!

    Squeeze me?
    Where the heck did the option of eliminating grades come into play?

  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,216 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Methinks they should add orange and green. Have seen plenty of those in my days. Orange would be on the high end above red, and green on the low end between brown and RB, in some instances.

  • JohnF
    JohnF Posts: 397 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Very interesting idea... first time I've seen it discussed.

    John Feigenbaum
    Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
    PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
  • Cameonut
    Cameonut Posts: 7,436 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Let's face it. MOST people cannot grade even though many think they can.
    The TPG's business model revolves around this fact. They take most of the debate out of what the coin grades and hence some indicator of value.
    I do not favor removing the designation.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • ms70
    ms70 Posts: 13,958 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019 4:05PM
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    .

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    @PerryHall said:
    Yes.. If PCGS no longer guarantees the color and the color can change, what's the point?

    The color designation gives a rough picture of how the coin looked when the grading service saw it. With no color designation, the buyer has no idea how much or how fast the coin has changed since being holdered.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Elcontador
    Elcontador Posts: 7,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    I checked 'no.' Yes, the standards have changed over time. If you want a RB designation, expect 20% RD. On Old Copper, I stick to mellowed RD coins which are now 70-80% RD. Most coins designated RD imo are either mellowed, are too blotchy, or have too much brown for my comfort level.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    A more useful designation would be percentage of full red left. By definition, RB copper takes up 90% of the scale (<5% RD = BN; >95% RD = RD). That's a huge span.

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    @messydesk said:

    @PerryHall said:
    Yes.. If PCGS no longer guarantees the color and the color can change, what's the point?

    The color designation gives a rough picture of how the coin looked when the grading service saw it. With no color designation, the buyer has no idea how much or how fast the coin has changed since being holdered.

    Since the definition is not applied consistently, we still have no idea. That 85% RD coin in a RD holder might have been slabbed that way or it might have met the 95% red threshold and turned in the holder.

  • OldIndianNutKase
    OldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    I voted YES, but with qualification as follows............

    Because the TPG's are very discriminatory to not only nicely toned coins but to a greater extent RD coins. I have submitted many Raw IHC proofs, and the ones that are RD always come back Questionable Color and the toned coins always grade as BN or RB. I somewhat agree with PCGS on this issue........most RD coins are QC. Copper coins over 100 years old cannot be Mint "RD" and any TPG opinion can only be interpreted as highly subjective. Large cents are incredibly rare graded RD.

    The grading standard for copper coins over 100 years old should be RB or BN. RD is not an acceptable grade for old copper.

    OINK

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    I voted YES, but with qualification as follows............

    Because the TPG's are very discriminatory to not only nicely toned coins but to a greater extent RD coins. I have submitted many Raw IHC proofs, and the ones that are RD always come back Questionable Color and the toned coins always grade as BN or RB. I somewhat agree with PCGS on this issue........most RD coins are QC. Copper coins over 100 years old cannot be Mint "RD" and any TPG opinion can only be interpreted as highly subjective. Large cents are incredibly rare graded RD.

    The grading standard for copper coins over 100 years old should be RB or BN. RD is not an acceptable grade for old copper.

    OINK

    So electric blue is okay to you (other threads), but red is suspect?

  • MrEureka
    MrEureka Posts: 24,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    PCGS should drop the color designations if they want people to start sending their red copper to NGC.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • OldIndianNutKase
    OldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes

    @cameonut2011

    So electric blue is okay to you (other threads), but red is suspect?

    Most of my blue IHC's look BN except when angled to the light. This is not in my interpretation of your post as "electric" blue.

    RD IHC's usually sell at significant premium to Blue IHC's. Question is....do you really think that TPG's opinion grading RD vs RB is credible? Thus they grade RAW/RD as Genuine with Questionable Color. Means to me that they do not know the difference between RD and RB. QC is a BS opinion that I should have to pay for????

    But IHC's toned blue are always straight graded as BN. Go figure.

    OINK

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019 12:32AM
    Options
    Yes

    @MrEureka said:
    PCGS should drop the color designations if they want people to start sending their red copper to NGC.

    If killing off the color guarantee didn't lead to a mass exodus, do you thinking finishing off two letters on a label will change the calculus that much? Registry sets?

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