How did this coin make it pass the dreaded 'unc details' grade?

DoubleEagle59 · July 17, 2018 4:36AM

It's a gorgeous coin, but received a good grade of ms63.

I just don't see why this was not graded 'unc details' for a very obvious scratch or two.

Your thoughts?

Kkathyl · July 17, 2018 4:42AM

I see the scratch but don’t equate that to a cleaning. I do think it’s long but the strike and luster on that make it up.

291fifth · July 17, 2018 5:14AM

The scratch is both large and in a highly visible area. I would never accept it at a grade of MS63. MS60 or 61 seems right to me.

ricko · July 17, 2018 5:17AM

That scratch is glaringly obvious... I would pass on that coin. Cheers, RickO

Colonialcoin · July 17, 2018 5:20AM

I agree with your assessment in the why did this coin not grade unc details. That is not exactly what I would call a hairline scratch. I think you got a most favorable grade with that coin, so much so that I wouldn’t have even bothered to send it in. Which TPG graded it?

PerryHall · July 17, 2018 5:22AM

That scratch is severe and would be considered to be damaged by any rational collector.

DoubleEagle59 · July 17, 2018 5:24AM

It's not my coin so I don't think it's proper for me to add further details (pardon the pun).

AngryTurtle · July 17, 2018 5:47AM

@291fifth said:
The scratch is both large and in a highly visible area. I would never accept it at a grade of MS63. MS60 or 61 seems right to me.

Basically my answer, although I was thinking 62. Looks like its a net graded 65

BillJones · July 17, 2018 5:50AM

The scratch is way to big and way too obvious to be ignored. I would agree that it should have been graded, "Mint State details, scratched."

logger7 · July 17, 2018 5:50AM

Without the scratch the coin is a nice gem, so the question is how much point downgrades are appropriate with it? Compare with a bunch of other comparable 63s, many have very little eye appeal, that one has a serious impediment but was graded like that for a reason.

BillJones · July 17, 2018 5:53AM

@AngryTurtle said:

@291fifth said:
The scratch is both large and in a highly visible area. I would never accept it at a grade of MS63. MS60 or 61 seems right to me.

Basically my answer, although I was thinking 62. Looks like its a net graded 65

To me a net grade would be inadequate. I think that most collectors would prefer a straight graded MS-61 to this piece labeled as an MS-61. If I had saved my money to buy an MS-61, this would be a very nasty surprise.

If that scrach had gone though the eagle, I don't think that coin would have gotten a grade.

COINS MAKE CENTS · July 17, 2018 6:35AM

If I would have sent that coin in I would have sure gotten a details grade

originalisbest · July 17, 2018 6:40AM

I would agree, based on the image, and I'm sure also in hand, that should have gotten a details grade. Really unfortunate scratch, probably placed there accidentally, late in the coin's life, by someone who really shouldn't be handling numismatic treasures.

DIMEMAN · July 17, 2018 6:43AM

If that coin would have been sent in by me.....it would have NEVER straight graded......and really it shouldn't!

jedm · July 17, 2018 6:59AM

A mint state coin with attractive mint luster, but noticeable detracting contact marks or minor blemishes. Emphasis is mine.
Directly from ANA grading standards. Looks to be PCGS graded. My guess is that this one will never be cracked out for an upgrade, but find it to be acceptable as is.

Sonorandesertrat · July 17, 2018 7:15AM

This is an interesting topic for discussion. I have always counted luster ahead of marks or fullness of strike, where MS coins are concerned. However, the obverse mark is so distracting that I would never consider buying it, even if I was specifically looking for an MS63 piece. If I was in the market for an MS62 coin, I still would not want this one, because my eyes would always be drawn to the bad mark. I think that an MS60 would be more appropriate, since this is like saying an MS coin is one foot from the grave.

oih82w8 · July 17, 2018 7:25AM

I

the buyer/owner to send it to CAC.

logger7 · July 17, 2018 7:38AM

I'd compare it with other 63s in auction results in Coinfacts:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/1858-1c-large-letters-ms63-anacs-ngc-census-47-102-pcgs-population-378-637-mintage-24-600-000-numismedia-wsl-pri/a/1130-7088.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/1858-1c-small-letters-ms63-anacs-ngc-census-128-476-pcgs-population-366-597-mintage-24-600-000-numismedia-wsl-pr/a/429-7165.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/small-cents/1858-1c-large-letters-ms63-pcgs-secure-pcgs-population-442-778-and-1-22-ngc-census-45-96-and-0-0-cdn-900-whsle/a/1276-7102.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/small-cents/1858-1c-large-letters-ms63-pcgs-pcgs-population-439-782-ngc-census-45-97-cdn-900-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc/a/1274-7085.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/2019

ShadyDave · July 17, 2018 7:55AM

Why does our host have "CODE 95- scratched" if they don't use it on a coin that is scratched like this? This should never be net graded, when the scratch is that large, prominent and across such a large portion of the coin.

Moldnut · July 17, 2018 8:10AM

Insert coin here
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1002164/hey-its-friday-post-some-dreck#latest

Paradisefound · July 17, 2018 8:43AM

Just curious...@originalisbest ....why did you give 'disagree' on Kathy opinion?
Do you care to explain your point of view for me to understand ?

@Kkathyl said:
I see the scratch but don’t equate that to a cleaning. I do think it’s long but the strike and luster on that make it up.

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2018 9:02AM

I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

U1chicago · July 17, 2018 9:04AM

I don’t think anyone has inserted the typical “have you seen it in hand” phrase yet.

I personally doubt it looks great in hand, but one never knows unless they see it.

logger7 · July 17, 2018 9:05AM

@Wabbit2313 said:
I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

Were these put in bags? What other scenarios give probable causes of damage?

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2018 9:10AM

@logger7 said:

@Wabbit2313 said:
I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

Were these put in bags? What other scenarios give probable causes of damage?

Coin on coin damage if it makes you feel better!

logger7 · July 17, 2018 9:15AM

@Wabbit2313 said:

@logger7 said:

@Wabbit2313 said:
I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

Were these put in bags? What other scenarios give probable causes of damage?

Coin on coin damage if it makes you feel better!

But I'm still scratching my head to come up with an explanation or scenario on that; at what angle, what type of handling caused that type of scratch? Ok, so we have Joe Dufus collector: "I'm gonna take out my small cents and play with them like tiddly winks; oops, the FE just got a scratch".

Kkathyl · July 17, 2018 9:15AM

I believe the question was how did it get passed and graded as MS. That was how I answer. I agree it looks bad and it is not what I would buy looking for a MS coin. But that would be the only logical explanation in my opinion how it could of got by. I think most would agree with that. Perhaps I should just of said yuke eww blah LOL

OldEastside · July 17, 2018 9:22AM

I think it should have been Grade as a "Darn Shame" :O

Steve

Colonialcoin · July 17, 2018 9:31AM

I highly doubt that the mark was caused by jostling in a bag. I have never seen any small or large cent with a “bag mark” anywhere close to that. It’s just an old nasty scratch that unfortunately ruins the eye appeal of the rest of the obverse.

PerryHall · July 17, 2018 9:34AM

Might be a staple scratch but who knows? In any event, that coin will never see a CAC sticker.

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2018 9:43AM

If you blow some Morgan dollars up to that size, the coin on coin marks look like a canyon! If it was a true blue scratch, no way PCGS does not label it as such. It does not look like a scratch to me. I don't like the coin though

PerryHall · July 17, 2018 9:46AM

@Wabbit2313 said:
It does not look like a scratch to me.

What does it look like to you if not a scratch? It sure doesn't look like a bag mark.

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2018 9:52AM

@PerryHall said:

@Wabbit2313 said:
It does not look like a scratch to me.

What does it look like to you if not a scratch? It sure doesn't look like a bag mark.

Like another coins edge causing damage under heavy weight. Note there are other damaging marks in the same area, not in a straight line like a scratch, or not going through the eagle also. If graders deem the damage is cause by other coins in a bag or similar, they are not called scratches.

asheland · July 17, 2018 9:54AM

I'm afraid I see that one as UNC details, scratched. It's too severe for a straight grade in my opinion. They were lenient on that one!

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2018 9:54AM

This is a scratch.

.

TommyType · July 17, 2018 9:55AM

I guess it begs the question: How big of a scratch is required to get a dreaded Details grade? Like many aspects of grading, I doubt we'll find it defined anywhere.

It may be that it doesn't look INTENTIONAL. And it is obvious, so a buyer shouldn't be surprised by it. Guess they came down on the side of "let the market decide on the price".

Of course, most of us would pass on this if we were looking for an MS-63....but an AU buyer might jump at the nice luster and detail at a lower price??

BillJones · July 17, 2018 10:06AM

If graders deem the damage is cause by other coins in a bag or similar, they are not called scratches.

A scratch is a scratch so far as I'm concerned. If you can figure out that it came from coin to coin contact in the bag, more power to you, but if I don't like the coin for the grade, I'm passing. > @Wabbit2313 said:

This is a scratch.

.

Yep an a lousy staple scratch that is probably worth $15 to $20 grand.

mkman123 · July 17, 2018 10:08AM

That coin shouldn't have been straight graded at all!!!

lkenefic · July 17, 2018 10:09AM

@ricko said:
That scratch is glaringly obvious... I would pass on that coin. Cheers, RickO

This....

MattTheRiley · July 17, 2018 10:18AM

How much scratch is too much scratch to pony up our hard earned scratch before scratching our heads?

MattTheRiley · July 17, 2018 10:18AM

Has anyone noticed how weird the word scratch is?

mannie gray · July 17, 2018 10:20AM

If you subtract the mark it looks like a 65+/66.
Even with that said, I think it should not have straight graded, but the market will decide the value, regardless of the grade (or no grade.)

@lkenefic said:

@ricko said:
That scratch is glaringly obvious... I would pass on that coin. Cheers, RickO

This....

Even if it was priced, say, as an AU50?
Not that that's likely to happen...but..what if?

PerryHall · July 17, 2018 10:25AM

@Wabbit2313 said:
I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

Most scratches are accidental rather than intentional. An example would be a staple scratch.

BAJJERFAN · July 17, 2018 10:26AM

@DoubleEagle59 said:
It's not my coin so I don't think it's proper for me to add further details (pardon the pun).

If the details are true why not? If I showed it to you [or some other expert] at a show I would expect an honest opinion of why you wouldn't buy it.

lkenefic · July 17, 2018 10:27AM

One thing is for sure... that scratch isn't going away after I buy it.

cameonut2011 · July 17, 2018 10:46AM

@Wabbit2313 said:
I think it is still bag mark damage, not an intentional man made scratch. That said, too distracting for 63.

I can envision very limited circumstances where severe bag marks could result in a details grade. This would be one of them if it is indeed a huge bag mark. Using a market grading concept, I don't think it is worth MS60 money.

cameonut2011 · July 17, 2018 10:48AM

I would never buy this piece much less at a straight grade MS price.

Smudge · July 17, 2018 10:58AM

I would just keep looking. Very unfortunate scratch. Lovely coin but.....I understand wondering how it got holdered, but it did so I would just pass and keep looking.

Type2 · July 17, 2018 11:07AM

I see the coin then the scratch. The scratch was part of the grade is why it rec a MS63 or it would of been a MS65 as for the scratch it was not made by a staple, sharp object or something like that it was from tossing it around or mishandling so still gradable.

Not nice to look at but gradable some will pass some will say it's nice for a book. Some one got a deal and well make some $$$, This is why I will never buy sight unseen coins.

Smudge · July 17, 2018 11:15AM

I really like the design and wonder why it did not get a longer run. I like the IHC a lot as well, but why didn't the flying eagle design get at least a few years?

How did this coin make it pass the dreaded 'unc details' grade?

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