The CDN/JA Interview: $600 vs 600K coins.
MrEureka
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JA says it's much easier for him to sell 600K coins than $600 coins, and he attributes that to the economy, the strength of the "1%", and the struggles of the middle class. Fair enough, but there's an important question left unasked. Why aren't the rich buying quantities of cheaper coins, which are in many cases obvious bargains, and instead paying record prices for the most valuable coins? My theory is that it's mostly because slabs are bulky and that a collection of more than 500-1000 coins is overwhelming. (The same thing could be true of the art market, where the high and low end of the market have diverged in a similar manner. Could the rich simply be running out of wall space?) If this sounds ridiculous to you, remember how Laura explained why Simpson was selling some things off? "He ran out of space."
So here are two questions for all of you:
First, how many slabs do you have in your collection?
Second, if you spent 600K on $600 slabbed coins, where would you keep the 1000 slabs and how often would you look at them?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
BTW, my rough estimate is that is that you can fit 240 slabs in a 5X10 SDB.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
fewer than 200 for sure
and forget about the second question, it just would not happen
The 600K coins are all known, and the go to people in the business have their opinions about them which aren't hard to discover. So you pretty much know what you are buying with these coins. I also think you can find out pretty quickly what the smart set thinks about the potential for gradeflation with respect to these coins.
With $600 coins, none of the above applies. Some might say with $6,000 coins, none of the above applies. I can provide scary examples of the latter.
I don't know how many slabs I have. I'm guessing 80-100.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I immediately envisioned storage per PCGS box, not per slab. 1000 slabs is 50 PCGS boxes which would comfortably fit in a personal sized safe or maybe 3 - 4 SDB's depending on the size of the box.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
MrE...
Brilliant question. I doubt there is a simple answer. My short answer to your question of what to buy often is reduced to whether a coin is simply the finest or among the finest known for the date. It is an easy selling point with easy talking points for the owner should they choose to talk about it.
Imagine putting together the 1,000 slabs that represent quality for the grade. Coins that have exceptional eye appeal even though they may not be the finest known. Such coins could truly be the finest at that grade level... And maybe that speaks volumes for a numismatist as priorities are often not the same among collectors. It is truly sad that one seems to be demeaned by the other. But that view and attitude just may create opportunity for those that choose to follow a different path in finding and appreciating exceptional coins for what they are.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I've sold off two complete sets to make room. And it's a hassle hauling out boxes of slabs. Using the room for presentation cases of fewer coins, such as a 36 proof set, proof nickel types, bust types, etc. These things take up room as well, but I do look at them more often and like the way they look together, almost like the old album days.
There is a big guy out there selling off a few thousand coins (not all so cheap) to go into a serious expensive box of 20. I have met the guy and sold him something really expensive via another dealer.
The following week we got a call to come pick up a 430+ coin deal to sell it all so he owner has piece of mind with a box of 20.
A small part of it is people realize more generic types of coins are stalled out. The more expensive coins are just cheap.
Oh yeah, one day I was at Mr Simspons office, he decided to clean house. I left with a suit case packed with 200 coins worth over $5 million. He said it was too hard to track everything. Don't get me wrong, he kept many cheaper coins that were wild, he just was clogged for space.
I would love to have unlimited boxes of coins
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I have about 450 slabbed coins, tokens and medals. Where would I keep them? Safe Deposit box although some of the madels take up too much room to be worth it.
How often do I look at them? Quite a bit actually. I'm always messing with some research project, article or presentation.
What would I do with a 1,000 slabs at $600 a piece? Proably get bored and sell them. I've got a mix of slabs from cheap coins to expensive.
Could it be that $600 coins haven’t really done that much over the last 10 years while the more expensive ones have gone up in price?
Yes, you might say that, especially if they are in the "dead" areas, like the "old" commemorative coins.
Drop the $600 coins to $500 and the problem vanishes.
I suspect JA likes dealing in 600k coins because a markup of 10% makes him 60k rather than the time it takes to sell 1000 ( $600 coins ) for the same 10% markup.
Plus JA has 'collected ' 600k coins and up .
Me, I sold my entire US holdings and now only collect world coins. I think the most expensive
foreign coin I ever owned was 14k.
I have 3 SDB of choice select slabbed foreign coins so put me in the $600 coin collecting camp.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
327 slabbed coins.....to answer question 1.
Don't think I'll get there....for question 2.
As to the larger question, I think it's a mistake to think price and availability drives collecting goals?
First come the goals, then you find the coin to fit the goals and pocketbook. If you have more $$, you buy a higher level coin. (And in some cases, the higher level alone is the goal?)
I think it's the rare collector who looks at the market, and sets the goal of buying the best bargain for the price.....
"why aren't the rich buying quantity of cheaper coins which are in many cases obvious bargains"
Someone with 600k to spend concerned about the investment aspect of it knows there are much better investment options than buying 1000 coins that will eventually cost ~10-20% just to sell. Unless they just love every coin they see there are much better places to put their money while still getting their coin fix with the very high end spectrum.
I think collectors are told to buy the best they can afford and that is why they buy higher priced coins
Approximately 60 US coin slabs likely growing to about 100.
Approximately 20 token slabs likel growing to 40
0 world coin slabs, likely growing to 50
10 will be misc or gold slabs.
So in total will likely work towards 200 slabs, then will likely hold at that number or reduce.
To me much more than that would be too hard to track, remember, and appreciate.
With regards to $600k coins versus $600, as another said, it is likely not viewed as an investment. It is a hobby that you want to feel good about. You want special coins that you can enjoy. I can’t spend that type of money, but if I could , I would rather see 1 incredible coin either for rarity or condition, then 1000 ms66 Morgan’s.
Related question: does anyone have stats to say how many >$600K coins (or >$100K) there are today, across all types?
I imagine that the folks who have accumulated the personal wealth to purchase a $600k coin or even $600k in coins are competitive people by nature. There is nothing competitive or challenging about accumulating 1000 $600 common US coins even if one did have the space.
Latin American Collection
Just under two hundred are listed in my two year old Red Book auction results. Some are duplicate sales of the same coin. Add in private sales and maybe 400 is the float. One can add in a number that have been off the market for extended periods.
Here are some sub-$600 coins that I would accumulate all day every day if only I could find them.
Paid a little over $500 at the recent Stacks sale
Bought via the OP
Also bought via the OP. More rare than the US half dime of the same date.
Latin American Collection
Before slabs, most serious collectors ended up with thousands of coins, not hundreds. And the super rich collectors who bought the most expensive coins back then? They bought the less expensive stuff too.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have a client who is primarily an investor. Just last week, I suggested to him that now would be a great time to build a 144 piece commem set. He had no interest. He doesn’t want to mess with so many cheap coins. Wants to buy something expensive instead. Had nothing to do with his ego, an appreciation for great coins, or even profit potential.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
But if you personally tried to build a 144 piece come set I think that you would find that your personal tastes would make a readily available set up still quite expensive.
Latin American Collection
Why do wealthy car collectors buy $2,000,000 antique cars rather than hundreds of $20,000 antique cars? It's not about space. It's because those are the legendary cars, those are the ones with stories. If you can afford it you want to be part of that club. It makes you feel good to own the most renown, ostensibly the best of the best. As a coin collector, maybe you want to have your name listed forever among those who have owned 1913 nickels or 1804 dollars or Brasher doubloons. Honestly, who wouldn't? By contrast, the history books will never record the names of those (like myself) who own the $600 coins.
Also, I think it is just a natural phenomenon that your tastes grow to match your wallet. If you can afford million dollar coins, then you look for million dollar coins. If you can afford $1000 coins, then you look for $1000 coins.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
$600k coins are so easy to sell because they are so easy to hide in a pinch...
I do not have an exact count... likely around 200 +/-... and no $600K coins... at least I don't think I do
... As far as storage, the value coins are in safes, the lessor value coins in cabinets or at hand ....Cheers, RickO
They may buy the $2 million cars for the reasons you state, but that doesn't explain why they don't ALSO buy the $20,000 cars. If I were a rich car collector, and if money were no object, I'd love to have some cheaper toys to drive around town every day. The only things stopping me from having 100+ cars would be storage space and the effort required to maintain the collection. In fact, those are the same things that keep ME from owing even one antique car.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I look at risk.
I would rather have 1000 $600 coins, that I handpicked as opposed to one handpicked $600,000 coin.
Again, just because you can afford coins at some maximum price level doesn't mean you won't consider collecting other things at a lower price level. In fact, we all do just that.
Most collectors have various thresholds constraining their collections. One, obviously, is the collector's budget. Others include the amount of storage space required, and a vague sense of how large a collection would have to become before it became overwhelming and something of a burden.
BTW, the number of coins is not the only thing that can make a collection of coins overwhelmingly large. The way the coins are stored also matters. For example, a raw Lincoln Cent collection in albums is easy to view and enjoy in a minute or two, whenever you're the mood. How long would it take to view the same set in slabs - hundreds of slabs - without feeling rushed?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Again, just because you can afford coins at some maximum price level doesn't mean you won't consider collecting other things at a lower price level. In fact, we all do just that.
Most collectors have various thresholds constraining their collections. One, obviously, is the collector's budget. Others include the amount of storage space required, and a vague sense of how large a collection would have to become before it became overwhelming and something of a burden.
BTW, the number of coins is not the only thing that can make a collection of coins overwhelmingly large. The way the coins are stored also matters. For example, a raw Lincoln Cent collection in albums is easy to view and enjoy in a minute or two, whenever you're the mood. How long would it take to view the same set in slabs - hundreds of slabs - without feeling rushed?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This becomes interesting when great design is trumped by popularity and the impact of popularity in terms of establishing value. I posted a thread earlier about a 1956 Lincoln mark II. I see it as an amazing design, fairly rare in terms of production and those that have survived, and it was probably the best designed luxury car dating from 1950 through the mid 1960's if not even later considering what was later produced. But it's value may not reflect the total package.
My point is that there are several terrific cars that are affordable for what they are. Next thread should be about the Studebaker Avanti which is truly a timeless design and just overlooked mainly because it either never quite met expectations at the time or was able to capture the cult following that certain other cars did... Consider the 1965 Mustang as an example to illustrate my point.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
My SDB storage capacity is capped at 40 in slabs, plus a little extra space for a couple of small 2x2 boxes. I could go rent another box if I had to, but bigger boxes aren't available at this branch, and I've been on a wait list for a box elsewhere for well over a year.
Storage is a constraint, but I also tend to feel like much more than 40 is 'too many' for reasons poorly understood.
As for the space issue...Seems one can rent another safe deposit box and even another if warranted. Coins and slabs are small in contrast to other collectibles
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
When I stopped collecting world coins I had well over 30,000 different coins. They occupied a bookshelf in 2X2's in the 20 pocket vinyl pages in notebooks.
I have about 200 slabs which is challenging enough to deal with. Would like to downsize to around 100 with no increase or decrease in investment.
1000 slabs wb a security / storage nightmare and would require bank boxes / vaults. Definitely would require inventory excel ss.
For me the optimal slab inventory number is 60 much like the roster of a football team. I have about 1000 pieces of currency take up any extra room in display case.
That is the reason I have a 1968 Shelby GT500, well north of a 100K car. I have owned over 300 Mustangs, and would rather have 1 like that, than 50 "lesser" Mustangs. Not even counting the space, but it is the "aura" of the item.
Just because I have the money to buy 50 cars or 1000 coins as mentioned above, why would I want to? All that shows is I can amass a bunch of stuff rather than pick 1 special one.
As the saying goes, put all your eggs (or just 1 egg) in one basket, and guard that snot out of THAT basket.
Can anyone estimate how many US coins are worth more than $600K based on today's value?
Will the number under 500?
At my peak I probably had north of 300 slabs. I made a series of decisions to sell projects for no other reason than the space they were starting to fill. Now have about 100 and am thinking of reducing even more. Maybe 60 to 80 is my range going forward.
How many bookshelves would you have needed for 30,000 slabs?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My approach is: if I know I could buy it tomorrow, I won't buy it today.
A budget of any size can be crippled by death by a thousand cuts and I want to ensure I have enough funds available should a great rarity surface.
Some day, I'll probably broaden out my set with less expensive coins; I don't foresee them becoming prohibitively expensive whereas the true rarities are sought after by people with deep enough pockets to pay whatever it takes.
Granted, there are still some unique opportunities on the cheaper-side: I recently paid 2x the highest price for a particular type because it was 4x nicer than any other example.
I'm opportunistic when the situation warrants it but otherwise not in a hurry, and I don't foresee my collection growing to more than ~200 coins.
I almost always take the same approach for my "serious collection". But I wouldn't worry about investing maybe 1-2% of my coin money into a cheap raw sprawling stay-at-home collection. That's just play money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.