I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
@keets said: I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
I called you a dealer because you work at a coin shop, have commented previously about going to shows representing a coin shop so I made the assumption that your position is that of a dealer, or closer to a dealer than a collector in this case. Either way, its not a bad thing or a good thing.
You said shopping a coin around ins't a good approach and referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
I was simply commenting that I found it funny that as a dealer or someone who works in a coin shop, you think trying to get more money for a coin you own is a bad approach. I would imagine if I offered you a price for one of your coins that you wanted to think about, and in the meantime, someone else offered you more money - that I would be out of luck.
I will agree with you that shopping a coin around for 10-20 bucks seems a little over the top, but to each his own. Not everyone has a ton of disposable income to spend on coins. If I can sell a coin to Dealer B for 800 bucks when dealer A only offered me 700, thats a fair amount of money.
Its too bad that you say dealers hate when collectors shop around for the best price - when I assume they essentially do that every day with their own inventory and when they are trying to purchase new inventory. Again, I would imagine that even those dealers "shop around" their own coins at shows and shop around for good deals on other items they buy in their lives.
I see it as part of doing business. I don't expect a dealer to educate me on something I'm trying to sell but I also don't expect them to try and rip me off. For me, if a dealer is close to my asking price, I usually sell the coin. Especially if they have something that I want as well.
I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing. Do you ever do any type of price comparisons or shopping around when you're buying a car, furniture or any item for that matter? In life, I typically decide I'm going to buy something, and just buy it, even with bigger items like vehicles. However, i see no harm in shopping an item around to get the best price, assuming Dealer #1 didn't already offer me a good price.
It's trickier than you think. The problem with "shopping around" from a dealer standpoint is that you are essentially running an auction where I don't get to bid again. If it is a common widget, I can throw a number on it and be done with it and I don't care if you come back or not. But if I have to put time into generating a number, it is aggravating for you to go across the room and ask for $50 more than my number. What I've actually done is research for my competition.
As a dealer, I will refuse to beat another dealer's offer, even if I could, because I want reciprocation from other dealer's on my offers.
This is part of the reason for the "what do you need"? It's not because I want to low ball you, but if you have a number and I'm willing to meet it, the deal is done. If I think you are going to shop it around, I would tell you to shop it first and come to me last and I'll offer then. I don't ever want to be the first offer, unless it is going to be the last offer.
nd referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
I was simply commenting that I found it funny that as a dealer or someone who works in a coin shop, you think trying to get more money for a coin you own is a bad approach. I would imagine if I offered you a price for one of your coins that you wanted to think about, and in the meantime, someone else offered you more money - that I would be out of luck.
I will agree with you that shopping a coin around for 10-20 bucks seems a little over the top, but to each his own. Not everyone has a ton of disposable income to spend on coins. If I can sell a coin to Dealer B for 800 bucks when dealer A only offered me 700, thats a fair amount of money.
Its too bad that you say dealers hate when collectors shop around for the best price - when I assume they essentially do that every day with their own inventory and when they are trying to purchase new inventory. Again, I would imagine that even those dealers "shop around" their own coins at shows and shop around for good deals on other items they buy in their lives.
I see it as part of doing business. I don't expect a dealer to educate me on something I'm trying to sell but I also don't expect them to try and rip me off. For me, if a dealer is close to my asking price, I usually sell the coin. Especially if they have something that I want as well.
See my other post on the subject. If you are taking blind offers, no big deal. The problem is people trying to leverage my offer into something else.
I once had someone come to me last. He had 2 other offers. The highest one was $380. I told him my offer was $360 (before I knew). He told me that he already had a $380 offer. I said, that's a solid number, you should take it. He said, I'll sell it to you at $400. I defered. He said, "I'll sell it to you at $380" I told him I wasn't going to do that to the other dealer. He left mad, although he may well have gotten the $380 from the other dealer.
No one wants to put in work in generating an offer just to have a buyer try to get $5 or $10 or $20 more using my offer as leverage. It's a waste of my time. And there are plenty of dealers that will offer the $5 more just to keep their competition from getting it.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
@jmlanzaf I definitely understand the point you're trying to make - and if that is what we're describing across the board in this thread - than so be it, and I'll agree with you. I took it to be just getting multiple offers and selling the coin.
It is definitely unfair to do what you've described
to follow on what jmlanzaf said, we often get people who walk into the store with something and offer it for sale. though we don't know it, they are prepared to do the "leverage" that he described which means we are down the line of places where the customer has "shopped" at already. when we make an offer and the reply is "Joe Fabeets down the road said he'd give me $XXX for it" my standard reply is that "You should probably go back and sell it to him."
@3stars said:
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal
some of the replies remind me why I started to work for my boss in the first place.
after being away from coins for a number of years I reconnected with my "dealer" when he opened a store about a mile from my house. I had a very liberal work schedule and would hang out and help however I could which got me access and better prices. I prodded him to do more coin shows and offered to ride along for free, helping behind the cases when needed and walking the floor when I could.
part of my reasoning was simple: I could "trade" my help for his knowledge and learn how a dealer thinks and works. I figured if I had a better understanding of his side of the table it would help my on my side of the table. I learned about margins, spreads, tricks that sellers use to con dealers and some of the ways that dealers try to gain an advantage over sellers, even other dealers.
I didn't expect it to lead to a job but it eventually did. I moved from an Industrial background(Tool and Die maker, Foundry and Plastics) to a 10-6 job as a clerk, doing all the grunt work necessary to run a small Coin/Jewelry business. after a little over a year he fired me!!!
about 3-4 years later he called me and said he was expanding his business and doing Pawns, he wanted me to run the Coin side of things. it has been fun and a furthering of my education. it is a hard business to make a living in, very competitive and sometimes cut-throat as everyone is often scrambling for the same dollar. as most of the real dealers, the guys who actually have their life, their family and their entire net worth dependent on this fine Hobby will tell you, it can be fun, too.
I could tell some stories. some might amuse collectors and some might enrage them.
In the very specific instance I related, If the guy had come back two hours later (light shopping), I likely would have written the $11K check after a harder second look.
However, the price quoted and offered was straightly for upgrade, not for customer fulfilment or product trading value. At a major show with 18+ elapsed bourse hours between "Bye" and "Hi again" there would be 100 dealers who could have pulled the trigger by then and did not.
If you're a collector or vest-pocket, get your pricing data in order before you "put your head in the lion's mouth".
It's not usually about the guy with the most money or experience having the power. The specific knowledge you bring to each individual transaction is the only power anyone has. Somewhat rational people can often disagree and walk away. An intersection of interests does not always result in the sufficient union of them necessary for a mutually agreed-upon number.
The data is out there. Learn or go broke. Inoculate yourself with due diligence. If the guy on the other side of the table, whichever side it may be, can smell your fear, that (sometimes intermittent but always humanly available) predatory twitch is more easily activated. But you don't have to be an alpha as long as your data rates an "A".
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
In ColJessup's case, I can see his point. When the coin has been shopped around to all of the dealers at a show, if he then buys the coin, the number of people who are potential buyers is significantly fewer than if the coin is "fresh" or has been shown to only one or two other dealers. If the number of potential buyers is fewer, then the coin is worth a less than it was when it was first shown to ColJessup.
For example, you offer $1,000 for a coin. The owner shops it to every other dealer at the show, presumably at $1,100 or so. Now he brings it back to you. You know that no dealer on the floor is going to buy that coin from you at what you have to sell it for to make a profit. If your sales are 50% to dealers and 50% to collectors, now 50% of your market is gone. So the coin might be worth $1,100 or $1,150 to a collector, but not to a dealer at that show.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@RichieURich said:
In ColJessup's case, I can see his point. When the coin has been shopped around to all of the dealers at a show, if he then buys the coin, the number of people who are potential buyers is significantly fewer than if the coin is "fresh" or has been shown to only one or two other dealers. If the number of potential buyers is fewer, then the coin is worth a less than it was when it was first shown to ColJessup.
For example, you offer $1,000 for a coin. The owner shops it to every other dealer at the show, presumably at $1,100 or so. Now he brings it back to you. You know that no dealer on the floor is going to buy that coin from you at what you have to sell it for to make a profit. If your sales are 50% to dealers and 50% to collectors, now 50% of your market is gone. So the coin might be worth $1,100 or $1,150 to a collector, but not to a dealer at that show.
That's part of it. It's also the principle. You want my knowledge/expertise for free to try and leverage it with my competition for more money. That's an appraisal, not a purchase offer. You pay for an appraisal.
an educated collector/seller is a better customer than an ignorant collector/seller. quite a few collectors/buyers that I have interacted with say they never sell.
@keets said:
an educated collector/seller is a better customer than an ignorant collector/seller. quite a few collectors/buyers that I have interacted with say they never sell.
selling will make you a better buyer.
Totally agree.
I also think everyone should run a brick-and-mortar for a week, then they will understand the advantages (and TRUE disadvantages) of eBay. People complain about eBay getting 8-13% of sales, they forget that your landlord gets 100% of rent even if there are no sales...and utilities...and payroll...and advertising...
@keets said: I tell him 50 other dealers have passed at that price and I'll pay him $9500.
Next........
a good example of "shopping around" which isn't really a good approach. we refer to the lower price offered as stupid tax. that will upset some people but the truth often hurts before it sets you free.
I’m curious how do you buy a new car and sell your old car?
Do you buy and sell from the first car dealer you go to?
@keets said: I tell him 50 other dealers have passed at that price and I'll pay him $9500.
Next........
a good example of "shopping around" which isn't really a good approach. we refer to the lower price offered as stupid tax. that will upset some people but the truth often hurts before it sets you free.
I’m curious how do you buy a new car and sell your old car?
Do you buy and sell from the first car dealer you go to?
Read the other responses. It's not a widget issue. It's a question of market research on a coin that isn't a widget. Don't expect me to do the research for you for free so you can use my time and effort to leverage a better deal. A better analogy is an insurance appraisal. Don't expect to get a free one.
If you want to hold an auction (for your car or any other widget as well), that's fine. That's not the same as running around leveraging my offer into extra money because I don't get a second chance to bid in most cases.
Based on the responses from the dealers here I'm beginning to understand why auction venues such as eBay and Great Collections are so popular among coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@PerryHall said:
Based on the responses from the dealers here I'm beginning to understand why auction venues such as eBay and Great Collections are so popular among coin collectors.
I love GC. I make lots of money on the coins i buy there for less than over the counter. In the last two weeks alone, I bought a Columbian half for $140 and sold it for $230 and I bought a pilgrim for $45 that I sold for $80. Collector didn't do so well on those, did he? I sold them for greysheet bid and bought them well back. And, of course, the seller didn't see the $140, he saw more like $110 and the $45 ends up being more like $35.
You folks are being willfully ignorant. The problem is not the single coin with obvious value. You show up with a 65 Morgan, I grab my greysheet throw you a number and that is it. You show up with a raw 15th century English noble, I have work to do and then you take my number and ask everyone to beat it. Not fair. And don't be so sure that GC or eBay would beat that number.
But the bigger problem are collections. You show up with Grandpa's Coin Collection. I have to sort it and count it. Let's say it has Whitman albums pulled from circulation. U.S. Mint products. A GSA dollar and some 90%. I sort, count and offer you $1000: $150 for the GSA, $250 for the 90% and the rest for the stuff.
When you then go and shop around you find someone to give you $160 for the GSA. You find someone to give you $275 for the 90%. What do you think happens to my offer when you bring the dreck back to me? First of all, I'd have to check it all to make sure it's still all there. Second of all, you've sold the 2 easiest things to sell and brought me the hard to sell material. I'm going to tell you to take your Whitman albums and proof sets back to whomever bought the other stuff.
In most cases, I would pay you MORE THAN GC or eBay for routine slabbed material because the margins on those coins are generally less than the seller's fees at either GC or eBay - much less the buyer's fee at GC. There is almost NO WAY you would get more for an 1881-S Morgan in 64 on either of those venues. Those are not the coins @keets and I are talking about. It's raw coins, unusual coins, or disorganized collections that I have to organize.
I encourage all the people I make offers to to go shop it around because no one will beat my offer because I'm a part-time dealer working on thin margins. I don't have rent to pay or payroll to make. But the full-time dealer issue is different. You want permission to use their time and expertise to help you get more money by screwing them on the sale.
again, to follow on a post from lmlanzaf...........................
we have a guy walk in with a large box of Mint products.
Me: What can I help you with??
Him: I have some stuff I'm looking to get rid of.
Me: Did you want to sell everything or just get a loan??
Him: I'd like to sell it all.
easy enough. I start sorting through his things, making stacks according to what everything is, Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Proof Commems, Mint State Commems, etc. and then start to price everything off the GreySheet. after about 45 minutes and 4-5 invoice sheets I have a price and tell him what I've come up with.
Him: OK, I'm going to go to a couple of other places before I make a decision.
Me: I thought you said you wanted to sell??
Him: I do, but there are a couple of other places I want to try first.
Me: I wish you would have told me that, we might have saved some time.
if the guy had told me he was taking "offers" or something along those lines he could have been to the next guy in a few minutes. I would have given him a copy of the GreySheet, a business card and explained to him that we would pay 20% back of the bid price. my parting words would have been "Thanks for stopping, call us or stop back in when you're ready to sell."
as he was leaving he said "Can I have those sheets??" asking about the invoices. I told him "No" and helped him pack up his boxes. my Sister has a word for guys like him: idiot.
I'd like to know if a dealer asked me what I'd needed to get for a coin and due to poor research or just plain ignorance I gave him price that was 30% below grey sheet. Would most dealers:
1) give me my asking price.
2) educate me that I'm asking too little for the coin
3) offer me an additional 10% less that my "what do you need to get price"
I understand that dealers have to make a living and need a certain profit margin to keep the lights on. Most coin collectors are at a distinct disadvantage when selling to dealers no matter how long they have been collecting. I'm just interested in where the ethics lie in the above scenario if you're being totally honest in your response.
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
@jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
I've been lucky enough to purchase a few decent collections locally and it always goes the same way. I respond to an ad, have some conversations, give them a price and encourage them to take it to the local coin shops and get offers. I always explain to them that its win-win for us (me and the seller) because I'm getting coins for less than I could buy them from a dealer and they are getting more for their coins then a dealer would offer.
I understand that if you have overhead, you need to make money - its the same with any business - and my business as well. I'm more than willing to leave meat on the bone for a dealer to make money - and always take that into consideration with my asking prices - but I'll still shop the coin around if we're talking about a decent amount of cash on the table.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
@jafo50 said:
I'd like to know if a dealer asked me what I'd needed to get for a coin and due to poor research or just plain ignorance I gave him price that was 30% below grey sheet. Would most dealers:
1) give me my asking price.
2) educate me that I'm asking too little for the coin
3) offer me an additional 10% less that my "what do you need to get price"
I understand that dealers have to make a living and need a certain profit margin to keep the lights on. Most coin collectors are at a distinct disadvantage when selling to dealers no matter how long they have been collecting. I'm just interested in where the ethics lie in the above scenario if you're being totally honest in your response.
It depends on the dealer, obviously. I would never ask the question for a coin in Greysheet because the price is pretty obvious and well established. Most of the dealers I do business with - because I've stopped doing business with the others - would offer more than the "need to get" price because they want the business, want to seem generous, know the person might shop it around.
Are there dealers who would go below that number? Sure. But there are also collectors who take the 5-finger discount when they can.
And, as a collector, would you cherry pick a dealers' inventory or tell him he has a rare variety that he didn't identify? Where are the ethics there?
@Yacorie1 said: @jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
It's not quite the same situation. I think you underestimate how much face value stuff ends up getting sorted and there's no way to make money on the CoinStar Quotient of a collection. I've literally had to sort silver from clad dimes out of a half gallon glass jug in order to come up with a fair offer.
So, a better analogy would be that you are having 3 quotes on your deck, but you ask the 1st person to clear the area, level the ground and drive in posts before you turn to #2 and #3 for their quotes.
@3stars said:
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal
I’ve actually made a couple dealers so mad their faces turned red. Both looked like they wanted to cuss me out but thought better if it because they practically forced a counter offer out of me.
I’m usually a pass or play buyer. I asked both the dealers for a price on a coin and passed. They then asked me for an offer. I was reluctant on both and told both I thought we were too far apart. They apparently didn’t think they would be offended but I guess they were wrong.
There are other issues to this from a collector side. If I have 10 coins for sale and 8 of them are from series I'm not actively collecting, I may not have up to date information to know "what I want". I'll base my decision on what is offered on the 2 I know something about. If it's worth $1000 and you offer $500, I'll definitely go elsewhere unless you explain why you lowballed it (hidden cleaning, surface issues, etc.). I would never say I got a quote from "Jim" at $650, I may say I have an offer for $650, but I think it's worth more. If I get offered $10 more, and I really want to sell it, I'd come back, if I get offered $100 more that's different. If I really thought it was worth $1k, I'd take it home and sell it some other way.
@Yacorie1 said: @jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
It's not quite the same situation. I think you underestimate how much face value stuff ends up getting sorted and there's no way to make money on the CoinStar Quotient of a collection. I've literally had to sort silver from clad dimes out of a half gallon glass jug in order to come up with a fair offer.
So, a better analogy would be that you are having 3 quotes on your deck, but you ask the 1st person to clear the area, level the ground and drive in posts before you turn to #2 and #3 for their quotes.
I disagree with you here. You make it sound like every person that walks into a coin shop has a giant box of unsorted crap that they have no idea about what any of it is. I'm sure there are people like that but I'm guessing that is not the norm.
If someone walked in with a bottle full of change and you're sorting the silver - you're making that decision to do so. You could just as easily tell them that unless its pre 1965, its only worth face value and hand it back to them. I'm sure that the liklihood of finding a big score is higher in a collection of someone who knows nothing - but it also could be that its a bunch of junk.
There are plenty of jobs that come my way that I have to turn down because it just doesn't make sense to invest the time for the size of the job; I see this as the same thing.
You're analogy about clearing land and driving posts isn't the same. if someone hands you a box of random stuff and you sort it and give them a price, you can then put it all back in the box randomly and let them take it to the next guy, who will have to do the same thing. The other option you have is that you can just pass on the entire box and be willing to miss the goodies that might have been in there.
I think the dealers and coin shop workers in this thread are presenting the two worst case scenarios.
Scenario 1: Random person walks into shop or up to table with a box filled with a mix of crap, clad and a few decent items. You spend time to sort it, price it, educate them and then they walk away and use that information at the next table.
Scenario 2: Someone has a group of coins that you make offers on and then they walk around and sell part of the group off and come back to you expecting that you'll buy the dregs.
Again, I can't imagine either of these are the norm. In the scenario I'm talking about - I have a coin with an easy retail value of 1k. I'm asking 800 for the coin which I think is fair for both of us and knowing its not one you'll have to sit on for a long time. You counter and tell me you can only pay 700. I'm going to say thank you and walk away to shop it around. if in the end, you're 700 is the best price and you're still intersted, I'll sell it. I'm not going to go to every other dealer and tell them I've already had an offer for 700 - I'm going to tell them I'm looking for 800. I see nothing wrong with that.
Very good thread, with a lot of insightful inputs from all sides.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
I liked this statement, and wanted to repost it from jmlanzaf.....and frankly should only be used when trying to sell something that you really don't know the value of (like my Confederate currency post earlier), and be upfront that you are going to shop it around. If they don't want to 'play' that's fine, but if they do, you will likely be getting their best offer.
Knowledgeable collectors should have a realistic price in mind and be ready to quote, but if you prefer the dealer goes first, if the offer is in the ballpark, just take it. And if you want strong offers for your better material, do the research and offer it those dealers who specialize in it; time and again those fellows 'pay up' for the coins they like to carry.
Again, I can't imagine either of these are the norm. In the scenario I'm talking about - I have a coin with an easy retail value of 1k. I'm asking 800 for the coin which I think is fair for both of us and knowing its not one you'll have to sit on for a long time. You counter and tell me you can only pay 700. I'm going to say thank you and walk away to shop it around. if in the end, you're 700 is the best price and you're still intersted, I'll sell it. I'm not going to go to every other dealer and tell them I've already had an offer for 700 - I'm going to tell them I'm looking for 800. I see nothing wrong with that.
I AGREE with you. But that easy retail value coin isn't the one we're talking about and it isn't the coin we care if you shop around. The complaint about people shopping around isn't the easy coins, it's the hard coins, because then you are marketing/selling my effort. Then, you are making me level the land and dig the posts before you call in the 2nd bidder. It's not just sorting, it's price discovery.
But, by the way, it IS the norm. MOST collections that come into stores are accumulations of widgets, not $1000 coins. A lot of coin stores don't see a slabbed $1000 coin come in off the street for weeks at a time. It's usually an estate with all kinds of widgets.
@3stars said:
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal
I’ve actually made a couple dealers so mad their faces turned red. Both looked like they wanted to cuss me out but thought better if it because they practically forced a counter offer out of me.
I’m usually a pass or play buyer. I asked both the dealers for a price on a coin and passed. They then asked me for an offer. I was reluctant on both and told both I thought we were too far apart. They apparently didn’t think they would be offended but I guess they were wrong.
I agree with you, from both sides of the counter. I'm pay or pass myself. As a dealer, I always start with my best offer and will never negotiate up. As a buyer, I HATE when dealers make me negotiate; give me your best price and I'll say "yes" or "no".
If the norm is a box of random widgets - than I stand corrected. It seems tough to stay in business if its just random stuff of little value that comes through the door. maybe thats why around here it seems that the dealers have very small storefronts with large ebay presences.
After reading many of these post, I now realize why I quit going to individual coins stores! 90% of my buys and sells are at coins shows where there is a wide selection and lot of healthy competition. Even then I'm mostly just looking at the vast majority of tables. I typically buy from the same dealers that I've known for years or ones that have been recommended by those well known dealers that I do deal with. I'll try new dealers (or ones that are unknown to me) once, if I find something I really want. I know they need to make money to stay in business, but if they don't treat me in a professional and reasonably fair manner, I'm done with them. I won't even "look" at some dealers coins/table because of their past attitudes and/or business ethics.
The largest problem with a collector's perception in the OP is that the collector forgets that he is asking someone who makes their living trading rare coins. In most cases, its not that the dealer sees you as a sheep thats about to be sheered, but rather can he make a fair/reasonable profit on this trade. The great equalizer is the internet. If you don't like what you are offered at a show then put the darn thing for sale online at a major house.
Just like in any field, there are sharks and dirtbags to be found but thats not what is typical.
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
@keets said:
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
At a show if I have material offered to me at my table at price I like I may buy it. Others I will make an offer / counter offer and if they don’t like it maybe they should blow it out on the Bay.
I can buy many CRC from a certain auction house at bid to 10 pct below bid on average. This means the seller is getting 10 to 20 pct below bid or even less based on sellers fees etc. So if I offer somebody 85 pct of cdn bid at a show this is a generous offer. If they want more, it’s simply not a deal for me due to current market conditions. I don’t care what they think I am there make money not ruffle their feathers.
Every dealer different on how they start buy negotiation assuming they have any use for the material period. Starting the negotion w query as to what they want like opening a game of chess with the knight.
I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
If a dealer needs to buy something 20% behind CDN bid to make it worth his/her time, then so be it - but you shouldn't be offended if someone walks. If I came up and offered 90% of Bid for the items on your table or in your shop - I'm sure you'd start to get pissed.
To me it sounds like dealers want all collectors to sell at some percentage below bid, at best, and buy for full retail. If that works, great, but I think thats why people are a bit surprised. My own perspective on all sales (including coins) is that if the market value of a coin is X, and I would love to get as close to X as I can. I recognize that a dealer needs to make money to survive and will likely offer me less than another collector for the same coin. Thats fine - but I think the better approach when someone comes up willing to sell a coin is to explain that to the seller. If a coin is worth X - I need to buy it "this amount" because it might take me some time to sell it etc.
its seem future intent has a lot to do with it. If your looking to pick up a few coins to turn back around, you will need some wiggle room. If you are looking to pick up an item that has a set purpose in your collection, and it will sit a while, then your pricing will probable be different. At least it is in my mind. I have no problem discussing pricing on coins and don't care who starts with the numbers. In the end, you should know what to expect (either side) if you cannot trust someone to not rip you off, then walk away.
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.**
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
@keets said:
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
**
you should to change how you think.
Perhaps I'm on the mark and you have to change how you think - and maybe adjust your business approach to be more in line with reality?
or perhaps you're right and I need to change how I think.
tell me why what I said is wrong. Like I said already in multiple posts - I don't see why coin shops are different than other sales venues, including my own profession.
I really am trying to see where you're coming from and have acknowledged that anyone in sales needs to buy lower than they sell or they go out of business quickly. We do work all the time at no margin or very low margin for exposure among other reasons, but you can't do that all the time or once again you're busted.
@keets said:
our business model works just fine and our customer base is healthy.
But you make statements and claims that don't make sense, at least to me, who has nothing to do with a coin shop. By inference, these statements are the reason(s) the coin business is somehow different than other sales businesses.
I'm simply asking you how they are different than car sales, or vacuum sales, or any type of B&M sales? You said it was important to remember that they don't function the same.
I'm certainly not trying to pick on you - I find this thread to be very insightful and helpful. I'm just trying to understand how/why its different since I've never been a coinshop owner or employee.
@keets said:
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Unregulated? For U.S. coins, there's the Secret Service.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
Depends on the coin. For widgets, you can rarely even sell them at bid these days. For a truly rare coin, dealers frequently pay over bid.
@cnncoins said:
I will be happy to price ALL/ANY of my coins...if you want to sell, I think it is fair to have you price your coins. There are always situations where the seller does not really have any idea what the value is, and as a dealer, I am happy to give an offer and explain how I arrived at that number.
This...
As a collector, do your research on prices, assume a 10-20% margin for most items, more if esoteric or thinly traded. In the age of the internet the only excuse for not knowing the approximate value of a graded US coin is generally laziness.
A old saying @ my house never buy or sell anything you don’t now the value of
Had a 10 dollar note shopped around almost a year offers 40 dollars to 400 dollars from a little research had a feeling the note was worth more money
Fun show talked to Al Adams offers 700 dollars and I sold it
Knowledge is power no matter who you are
Perhaps I'm on the mark and you have to change how you think - and maybe adjust your business approach to be more in line with reality?
or perhaps you're right and I need to change how I think.
tell me why what I said is wrong. Like I said already in multiple posts - I don't see why coin shops are different than other sales venues, including my own profession.
I really am trying to see where you're coming from and have acknowledged that anyone in sales needs to buy lower than they sell or they go out of business quickly. We do work all the time at no margin or very low margin for exposure among other reasons, but you can't do that all the time or once again you're busted.
I think you are mostly correct. Sales is sales. But coins are somewhat different as a commodity. They are MUCH lower margin than most other commodities. For example, wholesale price on most items runs 40% below retail. For coins, if you can get much over 10% of a spread between bid and ask, you are doing well. [And I'm not talking about cherry-picking an upgrade which many of you vest pocket types like to focus on. That is not most of the dollar volume of a coin store.]
You also have a lot of bullion items in the coin business that have margins of a few percent at best. If you can make more than $50 on a 1 oz gold coin, you are doing well. But 50 bucks is less than 4% of the gold price and comes with the inherent risk of price fluctuations in the underlying bullion.
So, while I completely agree that sales is sales, the margins in the coin business (gross margins, not even net) are worse than just about any business you can find.
@Yacorie1 I should add that my friends in the other collectible markets laugh at the coin business because of the tiny margins. A friend in the antique business almost lost his gum when we were talking about bid/ask spread in coins. He said he wouldn't touch something with less than a 20% margin and generally only dealt with items with 40% margins.
If you couple that with some of the collector comments above talking about how a crooked dealer might offer them a price 30% below market and you begin to see the problem. In any other business, 30% below market is EXPENSIVE for wholesale. You can also peruse all the threads excoriating Heritage and Stack's for trying to operate on a 25% margin or eBay for daring to charge a 10% premium. [Oddly, they don't complain about GC charging about 15% in buyer and seller fees...but I digress.]
It is a business where the customers EXPECT me to operate on thin margins. And, due to the bullion side of things, I'm really forced to deal in slim margins.
Not to mention the 0% margin I get on pocket change. If you really want to aggravate your local coin dealer, bring him a bunch of state quarter sets that are in plastic capsules pressed into cardboard pages and ask for FACE VALUE. LOL. It's not worth the hours of my time just to throw them in a coinstar...but I often have to do it when they come in as part of a bigger collection. And NO ONE will tolerate my offering them 10% back of face value.
Collectors aren't the enemy - I am one. Dealers aren't the enemy - I am one. But it is a tough business, especially if you have a store front.
I might also add that in states like NY, you are forced to operate like a pawn shop and put a hold of as long as 14 days on items that come across the counter. [For @PerryHall who thinks it is completely unregulated. Not always the case.]
Comments
I find it funny that as a dealer, you think shopping a coin around is a bad thing.
just to clarify --- I am NOT a dealer, I only work for a dealer. please find a post of mine where I call myself a dealer and I will promptly apologize. although I may sometimes make a reference to myself as the collective "we" in a post that is only in stating how my boss has me doing business in his name. again, I am not a dealer.
also, I didn't say that I think "shopping a coin around" is a bad thin(although I do), what I said was that dealers dislike when collectors shop around for the best price. I say that because that is what the other dealers we do business with tell me.
I called you a dealer because you work at a coin shop, have commented previously about going to shows representing a coin shop so I made the assumption that your position is that of a dealer, or closer to a dealer than a collector in this case. Either way, its not a bad thing or a good thing.
You said shopping a coin around ins't a good approach and referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
I was simply commenting that I found it funny that as a dealer or someone who works in a coin shop, you think trying to get more money for a coin you own is a bad approach. I would imagine if I offered you a price for one of your coins that you wanted to think about, and in the meantime, someone else offered you more money - that I would be out of luck.
I will agree with you that shopping a coin around for 10-20 bucks seems a little over the top, but to each his own. Not everyone has a ton of disposable income to spend on coins. If I can sell a coin to Dealer B for 800 bucks when dealer A only offered me 700, thats a fair amount of money.
Its too bad that you say dealers hate when collectors shop around for the best price - when I assume they essentially do that every day with their own inventory and when they are trying to purchase new inventory. Again, I would imagine that even those dealers "shop around" their own coins at shows and shop around for good deals on other items they buy in their lives.
I see it as part of doing business. I don't expect a dealer to educate me on something I'm trying to sell but I also don't expect them to try and rip me off. For me, if a dealer is close to my asking price, I usually sell the coin. Especially if they have something that I want as well.
It's trickier than you think. The problem with "shopping around" from a dealer standpoint is that you are essentially running an auction where I don't get to bid again. If it is a common widget, I can throw a number on it and be done with it and I don't care if you come back or not. But if I have to put time into generating a number, it is aggravating for you to go across the room and ask for $50 more than my number. What I've actually done is research for my competition.
As a dealer, I will refuse to beat another dealer's offer, even if I could, because I want reciprocation from other dealer's on my offers.
This is part of the reason for the "what do you need"? It's not because I want to low ball you, but if you have a number and I'm willing to meet it, the deal is done. If I think you are going to shop it around, I would tell you to shop it first and come to me last and I'll offer then. I don't ever want to be the first offer, unless it is going to be the last offer.
nd referred to a dealer offering a lower price as the stupid tax - so I think its clear on your opinion.
See my other post on the subject. If you are taking blind offers, no big deal. The problem is people trying to leverage my offer into something else.
I once had someone come to me last. He had 2 other offers. The highest one was $380. I told him my offer was $360 (before I knew). He told me that he already had a $380 offer. I said, that's a solid number, you should take it. He said, I'll sell it to you at $400. I defered. He said, "I'll sell it to you at $380" I told him I wasn't going to do that to the other dealer. He left mad, although he may well have gotten the $380 from the other dealer.
No one wants to put in work in generating an offer just to have a buyer try to get $5 or $10 or $20 more using my offer as leverage. It's a waste of my time. And there are plenty of dealers that will offer the $5 more just to keep their competition from getting it.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
@jmlanzaf I definitely understand the point you're trying to make - and if that is what we're describing across the board in this thread - than so be it, and I'll agree with you. I took it to be just getting multiple offers and selling the coin.
It is definitely unfair to do what you've described
to follow on what jmlanzaf said, we often get people who walk into the store with something and offer it for sale. though we don't know it, they are prepared to do the "leverage" that he described which means we are down the line of places where the customer has "shopped" at already. when we make an offer and the reply is "Joe Fabeets down the road said he'd give me $XXX for it" my standard reply is that "You should probably go back and sell it to him."
If selling I have no problem offering my price first, just keep in mind it will be at least 30% higher than I want so there is some negotiating room.
I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal
some of the replies remind me why I started to work for my boss in the first place.
after being away from coins for a number of years I reconnected with my "dealer" when he opened a store about a mile from my house. I had a very liberal work schedule and would hang out and help however I could which got me access and better prices. I prodded him to do more coin shows and offered to ride along for free, helping behind the cases when needed and walking the floor when I could.
part of my reasoning was simple: I could "trade" my help for his knowledge and learn how a dealer thinks and works. I figured if I had a better understanding of his side of the table it would help my on my side of the table. I learned about margins, spreads, tricks that sellers use to con dealers and some of the ways that dealers try to gain an advantage over sellers, even other dealers.
I didn't expect it to lead to a job but it eventually did. I moved from an Industrial background(Tool and Die maker, Foundry and Plastics) to a 10-6 job as a clerk, doing all the grunt work necessary to run a small Coin/Jewelry business. after a little over a year he fired me!!!
about 3-4 years later he called me and said he was expanding his business and doing Pawns, he wanted me to run the Coin side of things. it has been fun and a furthering of my education. it is a hard business to make a living in, very competitive and sometimes cut-throat as everyone is often scrambling for the same dollar. as most of the real dealers, the guys who actually have their life, their family and their entire net worth dependent on this fine Hobby will tell you, it can be fun, too.
I could tell some stories. some might amuse collectors and some might enrage them.
"Shopping a coin around" is a very broad topic.
In the very specific instance I related, If the guy had come back two hours later (light shopping), I likely would have written the $11K check after a harder second look.
However, the price quoted and offered was straightly for upgrade, not for customer fulfilment or product trading value. At a major show with 18+ elapsed bourse hours between "Bye" and "Hi again" there would be 100 dealers who could have pulled the trigger by then and did not.
If you're a collector or vest-pocket, get your pricing data in order before you "put your head in the lion's mouth".
It's not usually about the guy with the most money or experience having the power. The specific knowledge you bring to each individual transaction is the only power anyone has. Somewhat rational people can often disagree and walk away. An intersection of interests does not always result in the sufficient union of them necessary for a mutually agreed-upon number.
The data is out there. Learn or go broke. Inoculate yourself with due diligence. If the guy on the other side of the table, whichever side it may be, can smell your fear, that (sometimes intermittent but always humanly available) predatory twitch is more easily activated. But you don't have to be an alpha as long as your data rates an "A".
In ColJessup's case, I can see his point. When the coin has been shopped around to all of the dealers at a show, if he then buys the coin, the number of people who are potential buyers is significantly fewer than if the coin is "fresh" or has been shown to only one or two other dealers. If the number of potential buyers is fewer, then the coin is worth a less than it was when it was first shown to ColJessup.
For example, you offer $1,000 for a coin. The owner shops it to every other dealer at the show, presumably at $1,100 or so. Now he brings it back to you. You know that no dealer on the floor is going to buy that coin from you at what you have to sell it for to make a profit. If your sales are 50% to dealers and 50% to collectors, now 50% of your market is gone. So the coin might be worth $1,100 or $1,150 to a collector, but not to a dealer at that show.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
That's part of it. It's also the principle. You want my knowledge/expertise for free to try and leverage it with my competition for more money. That's an appraisal, not a purchase offer. You pay for an appraisal.
"I would never counter any offer that is 30% too high. There's a better chance of angering the seller than making the deal"
Same goes for the typical coin dealer first offer (30% too low).
That's NOT typical. Most coin offers are on a 10% gross margin not 30% below retail.
an educated collector/seller is a better customer than an ignorant collector/seller. quite a few collectors/buyers that I have interacted with say they never sell.
selling will make you a better buyer.
Totally agree.
I also think everyone should run a brick-and-mortar for a week, then they will understand the advantages (and TRUE disadvantages) of eBay. People complain about eBay getting 8-13% of sales, they forget that your landlord gets 100% of rent even if there are no sales...and utilities...and payroll...and advertising...
I’m curious how do you buy a new car and sell your old car?
Do you buy and sell from the first car dealer you go to?
Read the other responses. It's not a widget issue. It's a question of market research on a coin that isn't a widget. Don't expect me to do the research for you for free so you can use my time and effort to leverage a better deal. A better analogy is an insurance appraisal. Don't expect to get a free one.
If you want to hold an auction (for your car or any other widget as well), that's fine. That's not the same as running around leveraging my offer into extra money because I don't get a second chance to bid in most cases.
Based on the responses from the dealers here I'm beginning to understand why auction venues such as eBay and Great Collections are so popular among coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I love GC. I make lots of money on the coins i buy there for less than over the counter. In the last two weeks alone, I bought a Columbian half for $140 and sold it for $230 and I bought a pilgrim for $45 that I sold for $80. Collector didn't do so well on those, did he? I sold them for greysheet bid and bought them well back. And, of course, the seller didn't see the $140, he saw more like $110 and the $45 ends up being more like $35.
You folks are being willfully ignorant. The problem is not the single coin with obvious value. You show up with a 65 Morgan, I grab my greysheet throw you a number and that is it. You show up with a raw 15th century English noble, I have work to do and then you take my number and ask everyone to beat it. Not fair. And don't be so sure that GC or eBay would beat that number.
But the bigger problem are collections. You show up with Grandpa's Coin Collection. I have to sort it and count it. Let's say it has Whitman albums pulled from circulation. U.S. Mint products. A GSA dollar and some 90%. I sort, count and offer you $1000: $150 for the GSA, $250 for the 90% and the rest for the stuff.
When you then go and shop around you find someone to give you $160 for the GSA. You find someone to give you $275 for the 90%. What do you think happens to my offer when you bring the dreck back to me? First of all, I'd have to check it all to make sure it's still all there. Second of all, you've sold the 2 easiest things to sell and brought me the hard to sell material. I'm going to tell you to take your Whitman albums and proof sets back to whomever bought the other stuff.
In most cases, I would pay you MORE THAN GC or eBay for routine slabbed material because the margins on those coins are generally less than the seller's fees at either GC or eBay - much less the buyer's fee at GC. There is almost NO WAY you would get more for an 1881-S Morgan in 64 on either of those venues. Those are not the coins @keets and I are talking about. It's raw coins, unusual coins, or disorganized collections that I have to organize.
I encourage all the people I make offers to to go shop it around because no one will beat my offer because I'm a part-time dealer working on thin margins. I don't have rent to pay or payroll to make. But the full-time dealer issue is different. You want permission to use their time and expertise to help you get more money by screwing them on the sale.
again, to follow on a post from lmlanzaf...........................
we have a guy walk in with a large box of Mint products.
Me: What can I help you with??
Him: I have some stuff I'm looking to get rid of.
Me: Did you want to sell everything or just get a loan??
Him: I'd like to sell it all.
easy enough. I start sorting through his things, making stacks according to what everything is, Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Proof Commems, Mint State Commems, etc. and then start to price everything off the GreySheet. after about 45 minutes and 4-5 invoice sheets I have a price and tell him what I've come up with.
Him: OK, I'm going to go to a couple of other places before I make a decision.
Me: I thought you said you wanted to sell??
Him: I do, but there are a couple of other places I want to try first.
Me: I wish you would have told me that, we might have saved some time.
if the guy had told me he was taking "offers" or something along those lines he could have been to the next guy in a few minutes. I would have given him a copy of the GreySheet, a business card and explained to him that we would pay 20% back of the bid price. my parting words would have been "Thanks for stopping, call us or stop back in when you're ready to sell."
as he was leaving he said "Can I have those sheets??" asking about the invoices. I told him "No" and helped him pack up his boxes. my Sister has a word for guys like him: idiot.
I'd like to know if a dealer asked me what I'd needed to get for a coin and due to poor research or just plain ignorance I gave him price that was 30% below grey sheet. Would most dealers:
1) give me my asking price.
2) educate me that I'm asking too little for the coin
3) offer me an additional 10% less that my "what do you need to get price"
I understand that dealers have to make a living and need a certain profit margin to keep the lights on. Most coin collectors are at a distinct disadvantage when selling to dealers no matter how long they have been collecting. I'm just interested in where the ethics lie in the above scenario if you're being totally honest in your response.
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@jafo50 I'm sure there are a few that would go with #2 or #3 but I'm guessing most would go with #1 and just say you should have done your research.
I've been lucky enough to purchase a few decent collections locally and it always goes the same way. I respond to an ad, have some conversations, give them a price and encourage them to take it to the local coin shops and get offers. I always explain to them that its win-win for us (me and the seller) because I'm getting coins for less than I could buy them from a dealer and they are getting more for their coins then a dealer would offer.
I understand that if you have overhead, you need to make money - its the same with any business - and my business as well. I'm more than willing to leave meat on the bone for a dealer to make money - and always take that into consideration with my asking prices - but I'll still shop the coin around if we're talking about a decent amount of cash on the table.
Having someone walk into a B&M is really no different than if I have 3 people come to my house to quote me on a new deck/retaining wall. They come out, they have to spend time here discussing different possibilities and options, they do the research on materials and prices and then work up a quote. At a show, I can understand the time is limited and you don't want to "waste" time with a customer who is just using your services.
It depends on the dealer, obviously. I would never ask the question for a coin in Greysheet because the price is pretty obvious and well established. Most of the dealers I do business with - because I've stopped doing business with the others - would offer more than the "need to get" price because they want the business, want to seem generous, know the person might shop it around.
Are there dealers who would go below that number? Sure. But there are also collectors who take the 5-finger discount when they can.
And, as a collector, would you cherry pick a dealers' inventory or tell him he has a rare variety that he didn't identify? Where are the ethics there?
It's not quite the same situation. I think you underestimate how much face value stuff ends up getting sorted and there's no way to make money on the CoinStar Quotient of a collection. I've literally had to sort silver from clad dimes out of a half gallon glass jug in order to come up with a fair offer.
So, a better analogy would be that you are having 3 quotes on your deck, but you ask the 1st person to clear the area, level the ground and drive in posts before you turn to #2 and #3 for their quotes.
I’ve actually made a couple dealers so mad their faces turned red. Both looked like they wanted to cuss me out but thought better if it because they practically forced a counter offer out of me.
I’m usually a pass or play buyer. I asked both the dealers for a price on a coin and passed. They then asked me for an offer. I was reluctant on both and told both I thought we were too far apart. They apparently didn’t think they would be offended but I guess they were wrong.
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There are other issues to this from a collector side. If I have 10 coins for sale and 8 of them are from series I'm not actively collecting, I may not have up to date information to know "what I want". I'll base my decision on what is offered on the 2 I know something about. If it's worth $1000 and you offer $500, I'll definitely go elsewhere unless you explain why you lowballed it (hidden cleaning, surface issues, etc.). I would never say I got a quote from "Jim" at $650, I may say I have an offer for $650, but I think it's worth more. If I get offered $10 more, and I really want to sell it, I'd come back, if I get offered $100 more that's different. If I really thought it was worth $1k, I'd take it home and sell it some other way.
I disagree with you here. You make it sound like every person that walks into a coin shop has a giant box of unsorted crap that they have no idea about what any of it is. I'm sure there are people like that but I'm guessing that is not the norm.
If someone walked in with a bottle full of change and you're sorting the silver - you're making that decision to do so. You could just as easily tell them that unless its pre 1965, its only worth face value and hand it back to them. I'm sure that the liklihood of finding a big score is higher in a collection of someone who knows nothing - but it also could be that its a bunch of junk.
There are plenty of jobs that come my way that I have to turn down because it just doesn't make sense to invest the time for the size of the job; I see this as the same thing.
You're analogy about clearing land and driving posts isn't the same. if someone hands you a box of random stuff and you sort it and give them a price, you can then put it all back in the box randomly and let them take it to the next guy, who will have to do the same thing. The other option you have is that you can just pass on the entire box and be willing to miss the goodies that might have been in there.
I think the dealers and coin shop workers in this thread are presenting the two worst case scenarios.
Scenario 1: Random person walks into shop or up to table with a box filled with a mix of crap, clad and a few decent items. You spend time to sort it, price it, educate them and then they walk away and use that information at the next table.
Scenario 2: Someone has a group of coins that you make offers on and then they walk around and sell part of the group off and come back to you expecting that you'll buy the dregs.
Again, I can't imagine either of these are the norm. In the scenario I'm talking about - I have a coin with an easy retail value of 1k. I'm asking 800 for the coin which I think is fair for both of us and knowing its not one you'll have to sit on for a long time. You counter and tell me you can only pay 700. I'm going to say thank you and walk away to shop it around. if in the end, you're 700 is the best price and you're still intersted, I'll sell it. I'm not going to go to every other dealer and tell them I've already had an offer for 700 - I'm going to tell them I'm looking for 800. I see nothing wrong with that.
Very good thread, with a lot of insightful inputs from all sides.
So, like I said, if you want to ask 3 people for offers and take the highest one - great! If you want to ask 3 people and use the first two offers as leverage on the third offer, then I don't want to bother with you.
I liked this statement, and wanted to repost it from jmlanzaf.....and frankly should only be used when trying to sell something that you really don't know the value of (like my Confederate currency post earlier), and be upfront that you are going to shop it around. If they don't want to 'play' that's fine, but if they do, you will likely be getting their best offer.
Knowledgeable collectors should have a realistic price in mind and be ready to quote, but if you prefer the dealer goes first, if the offer is in the ballpark, just take it. And if you want strong offers for your better material, do the research and offer it those dealers who specialize in it; time and again those fellows 'pay up' for the coins they like to carry.
I AGREE with you. But that easy retail value coin isn't the one we're talking about and it isn't the coin we care if you shop around. The complaint about people shopping around isn't the easy coins, it's the hard coins, because then you are marketing/selling my effort. Then, you are making me level the land and dig the posts before you call in the 2nd bidder. It's not just sorting, it's price discovery.
But, by the way, it IS the norm. MOST collections that come into stores are accumulations of widgets, not $1000 coins. A lot of coin stores don't see a slabbed $1000 coin come in off the street for weeks at a time. It's usually an estate with all kinds of widgets.
I agree with you, from both sides of the counter. I'm pay or pass myself. As a dealer, I always start with my best offer and will never negotiate up. As a buyer, I HATE when dealers make me negotiate; give me your best price and I'll say "yes" or "no".
If the norm is a box of random widgets - than I stand corrected. It seems tough to stay in business if its just random stuff of little value that comes through the door. maybe thats why around here it seems that the dealers have very small storefronts with large ebay presences.
After reading many of these post, I now realize why I quit going to individual coins stores! 90% of my buys and sells are at coins shows where there is a wide selection and lot of healthy competition. Even then I'm mostly just looking at the vast majority of tables. I typically buy from the same dealers that I've known for years or ones that have been recommended by those well known dealers that I do deal with. I'll try new dealers (or ones that are unknown to me) once, if I find something I really want. I know they need to make money to stay in business, but if they don't treat me in a professional and reasonably fair manner, I'm done with them. I won't even "look" at some dealers coins/table because of their past attitudes and/or business ethics.
The largest problem with a collector's perception in the OP is that the collector forgets that he is asking someone who makes their living trading rare coins. In most cases, its not that the dealer sees you as a sheep thats about to be sheered, but rather can he make a fair/reasonable profit on this trade. The great equalizer is the internet. If you don't like what you are offered at a show then put the darn thing for sale online at a major house.
Just like in any field, there are sharks and dirtbags to be found but thats not what is typical.
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
At a show if I have material offered to me at my table at price I like I may buy it. Others I will make an offer / counter offer and if they don’t like it maybe they should blow it out on the Bay.
I can buy many CRC from a certain auction house at bid to 10 pct below bid on average. This means the seller is getting 10 to 20 pct below bid or even less based on sellers fees etc. So if I offer somebody 85 pct of cdn bid at a show this is a generous offer. If they want more, it’s simply not a deal for me due to current market conditions. I don’t care what they think I am there make money not ruffle their feathers.
Every dealer different on how they start buy negotiation assuming they have any use for the material period. Starting the negotion w query as to what they want like opening a game of chess with the knight.
I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.
If a dealer needs to buy something 20% behind CDN bid to make it worth his/her time, then so be it - but you shouldn't be offended if someone walks. If I came up and offered 90% of Bid for the items on your table or in your shop - I'm sure you'd start to get pissed.
To me it sounds like dealers want all collectors to sell at some percentage below bid, at best, and buy for full retail. If that works, great, but I think thats why people are a bit surprised. My own perspective on all sales (including coins) is that if the market value of a coin is X, and I would love to get as close to X as I can. I recognize that a dealer needs to make money to survive and will likely offer me less than another collector for the same coin. Thats fine - but I think the better approach when someone comes up willing to sell a coin is to explain that to the seller. If a coin is worth X - I need to buy it "this amount" because it might take me some time to sell it etc.
its seem future intent has a lot to do with it. If your looking to pick up a few coins to turn back around, you will need some wiggle room. If you are looking to pick up an item that has a set purpose in your collection, and it will sit a while, then your pricing will probable be different. At least it is in my mind. I have no problem discussing pricing on coins and don't care who starts with the numbers. In the end, you should know what to expect (either side) if you cannot trust someone to not rip you off, then walk away.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
**I guess since I'm not a dealer of any sort - I just can't bring msyelf to differentiate coin shops/dealers from the rest of the sales world or business world.
Regulated or not, its just like sales of any other item. Its all about sales, volume and margins. You have to hit a certain profit to make the business viable, regardless of whether you are high volume and low margin, low volume and high margin or a combination of both.
Coins are no different than plumbing supplies, vacuum shops, TV repair shops or any type of sales (even intellectual). They need to stay in business by making sales.**
you should change how you think.
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
Perhaps I'm on the mark and you have to change how you think - and maybe adjust your business approach to be more in line with reality?
or perhaps you're right and I need to change how I think.
tell me why what I said is wrong. Like I said already in multiple posts - I don't see why coin shops are different than other sales venues, including my own profession.
I really am trying to see where you're coming from and have acknowledged that anyone in sales needs to buy lower than they sell or they go out of business quickly. We do work all the time at no margin or very low margin for exposure among other reasons, but you can't do that all the time or once again you're busted.
our business model works just fine and our customer base is healthy.
But you make statements and claims that don't make sense, at least to me, who has nothing to do with a coin shop. By inference, these statements are the reason(s) the coin business is somehow different than other sales businesses.
I'm simply asking you how they are different than car sales, or vacuum sales, or any type of B&M sales? You said it was important to remember that they don't function the same.
I'm certainly not trying to pick on you - I find this thread to be very insightful and helpful. I'm just trying to understand how/why its different since I've never been a coinshop owner or employee.
Unregulated? For U.S. coins, there's the Secret Service.
And, seriously, how regulated is home repair?
Depends on the coin. For widgets, you can rarely even sell them at bid these days. For a truly rare coin, dealers frequently pay over bid.
This...
As a collector, do your research on prices, assume a 10-20% margin for most items, more if esoteric or thinly traded. In the age of the internet the only excuse for not knowing the approximate value of a graded US coin is generally laziness.
Latin American Collection
A old saying @ my house never buy or sell anything you don’t now the value of
Had a 10 dollar note shopped around almost a year offers 40 dollars to 400 dollars from a little research had a feeling the note was worth more money
Fun show talked to Al Adams offers 700 dollars and I sold it
Knowledge is power no matter who you are
I think you are mostly correct. Sales is sales. But coins are somewhat different as a commodity. They are MUCH lower margin than most other commodities. For example, wholesale price on most items runs 40% below retail. For coins, if you can get much over 10% of a spread between bid and ask, you are doing well. [And I'm not talking about cherry-picking an upgrade which many of you vest pocket types like to focus on. That is not most of the dollar volume of a coin store.]
You also have a lot of bullion items in the coin business that have margins of a few percent at best. If you can make more than $50 on a 1 oz gold coin, you are doing well. But 50 bucks is less than 4% of the gold price and comes with the inherent risk of price fluctuations in the underlying bullion.
So, while I completely agree that sales is sales, the margins in the coin business (gross margins, not even net) are worse than just about any business you can find.
@Yacorie1 I should add that my friends in the other collectible markets laugh at the coin business because of the tiny margins. A friend in the antique business almost lost his gum when we were talking about bid/ask spread in coins. He said he wouldn't touch something with less than a 20% margin and generally only dealt with items with 40% margins.
If you couple that with some of the collector comments above talking about how a crooked dealer might offer them a price 30% below market and you begin to see the problem. In any other business, 30% below market is EXPENSIVE for wholesale. You can also peruse all the threads excoriating Heritage and Stack's for trying to operate on a 25% margin or eBay for daring to charge a 10% premium. [Oddly, they don't complain about GC charging about 15% in buyer and seller fees...but I digress.]
It is a business where the customers EXPECT me to operate on thin margins. And, due to the bullion side of things, I'm really forced to deal in slim margins.
Not to mention the 0% margin I get on pocket change. If you really want to aggravate your local coin dealer, bring him a bunch of state quarter sets that are in plastic capsules pressed into cardboard pages and ask for FACE VALUE. LOL. It's not worth the hours of my time just to throw them in a coinstar...but I often have to do it when they come in as part of a bigger collection. And NO ONE will tolerate my offering them 10% back of face value.
Collectors aren't the enemy - I am one. Dealers aren't the enemy - I am one. But it is a tough business, especially if you have a store front.
I might also add that in states like NY, you are forced to operate like a pawn shop and put a hold of as long as 14 days on items that come across the counter. [For @PerryHall who thinks it is completely unregulated. Not always the case.]