**I really am trying to see where you're coming from **
my last post, but here's my take. you keep asking for explanations but aren't willing to accept anything. instead of understanding that maybe this Hobby functions a little different than what you are accustomed to you tend to think your way is the correct way.
we buy coins. we also sell coins. more often than not a customer sees something they like with a marked price and they want to pay less, so they dicker with us. go into Home Depot to buy an entrance door that's marked at $259.99 and try to get it for $199.99. it won't happen.
different areas of the economy function in different ways. all I can do is tell you what my experience in this Hobby doing retail has taught me. if you think I'm lying or making things up, OK. if you don't want to believe what me or others say, OK.
@keets said:
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Unregulated? For U.S. coins, there's the Secret Service.
And, seriously, how regulated is home repair?
Very interesting. I knew that the Secret Service suppressed counterfeiting but I never knew they regulated the coin industry.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@keets said:
**I really am trying to see where you're coming from **
my last post, but here's my take. you keep asking for explanations but aren't willing to accept anything. instead of understanding that maybe this Hobby functions a little different than what you are accustomed to you tend to think your way is the correct way.
we buy coins. we also sell coins. more often than not a customer sees something they like with a marked price and they want to pay less, so they dicker with us. go into Home Depot to buy an entrance door that's marked at $259.99 and try to get it for $199.99. it won't happen.
different areas of the economy function in different ways. all I can do is tell you what my experience in this Hobby doing retail has taught me. if you think I'm lying or making things up, OK. if you don't want to believe what me or others say, OK.
So I understand more where you're coming from with that example - but comparing a big box store to a privately owned coin shop isn't exactly apples to apples. You could definitely go into local, privately owned stores and negotiate price. Thats why I was using examples like a tv repair shop, a vacuum store etc. and not using examples like Sears and Walmart.
I haven't been unwilling to listen to why its different, nor have I suggested you were lying. I simply asked for an explaination to your very generic and broad statements that suggested the rest of us outside of the coin industry just need to remember its somehow different.
If you're comparing what happens in your store to what happens at walmart and Home depot - then I understand what you're saying.
@jmlanzaf said: @Yacorie1 I should add that my friends in the other collectible markets laugh at the coin business because of the tiny margins. A friend in the antique business almost lost his gum when we were talking about bid/ask spread in coins. He said he wouldn't touch something with less than a 20% margin and generally only dealt with items with 40% margins.
If you couple that with some of the collector comments above talking about how a crooked dealer might offer them a price 30% below market and you begin to see the problem. In any other business, 30% below market is EXPENSIVE for wholesale. You can also peruse all the threads excoriating Heritage and Stack's for trying to operate on a 25% margin or eBay for daring to charge a 10% premium. [Oddly, they don't complain about GC charging about 15% in buyer and seller fees...but I digress.]
It is a business where the customers EXPECT me to operate on thin margins. And, due to the bullion side of things, I'm really forced to deal in slim margins.
Not to mention the 0% margin I get on pocket change. If you really want to aggravate your local coin dealer, bring him a bunch of state quarter sets that are in plastic capsules pressed into cardboard pages and ask for FACE VALUE. LOL. It's not worth the hours of my time just to throw them in a coinstar...but I often have to do it when they come in as part of a bigger collection. And NO ONE will tolerate my offering them 10% back of face value.
Collectors aren't the enemy - I am one. Dealers aren't the enemy - I am one. But it is a tough business, especially if you have a store front.
I might also add that in states like NY, you are forced to operate like a pawn shop and put a hold of as long as 14 days on items that come across the counter. [For @PerryHall who thinks it is completely unregulated. Not always the case.]
Thank you for your description - I definitely understand where you are coming from. The internet definitely is a blessing and a curse with regards to what you're dealing with also.
Its somewhat different because your wholesale is coming from the public and not from a distribution center or the factory directly. When a plumbing distributor wholesales from the company, they are mostly on the same page with all of the other shops in the area.
@keets said:
it is important to realize that this Hobby doesn't function the same way as car dealerships, home repair and most other examples being used in comparison.
Agree. It's unregulated unlike other industries.
Unregulated? For U.S. coins, there's the Secret Service.
And, seriously, how regulated is home repair?
Very interesting. I knew that the Secret Service suppressed counterfeiting but I never knew they regulated the coin industry.
LOL. Suppressing counterfeiting is a form of regulation. They once showed up at our local coin club and confiscated a member's collection of counterfeits.
Who regulates landscape services? TV Repair? Shoe stores?
@Wabbit2313 said:
To those who are speaking up here the most, do you attend all the big coin shows?
No. Coin shows are different than stores, in a lot of ways. I've never had anyone come up to me at a coin show carrying 6 boxes of Grandpa's coin accumulation. Although I did once have someone come up to me with a backpack that had a few glass coffee jars full of samples of Grandpa's coin accumulation.
Offer me your nice original graded midgrade Barber Half's....I might surprise you! The percentage of nice original material in holders is fast approaching 50/50.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Do any of the dealers actually pay bid or higher? There are some nice coins out there and they should not all be lumped in with some of the junk the I have seen show after show.
I will pay over bid (on "spec") for damn near every non-widget "A" coin offered me (under, IDK, 25K?).
Please allow me some wiggle room on the other 99.9%. My buy-sell spread on anything, including an MS67 CAC 1881-S S$1 is "I don't care, I'm making $50 or I won't play".
I offer these grossly simplistic business guidelines so we can happily perform commerce upon each other as you come back again and again.
Otherwise, stop whining and get off my lawn
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
I will pay over bid (on "spec") for damn near every non-widget "A" coin offered me (under . Please allow me some wiggle room on the other 99.9%. My buy-sell spread on anything, including an MS67 CAC 1881-S S$1 is "I don't care, I'm making $50 or I won't play".
I offer these grossly simplistic business guidelines so we can happily perform commerce upon each other as you come back again and again.
Otherwise, stop whining and get off my lawn
You're just a crook like all dealers. YOU NEED TO MAKE $50?!?!? You're only shelling out $700, what the hell is your problem?
@ColonelJessup said:
I will pay over bid (on "spec") for damn near every non-widget "A" coin offered me (under . Please allow me some wiggle room on the other 99.9%. My buy-sell spread on anything, including an MS67 CAC 1881-S S$1 is "I don't care, I'm making $50 or I won't play".
I offer these grossly simplistic business guidelines so we can happily perform commerce upon each other as you come back again and again.
Otherwise, stop whining and get off my lawn
You're just a crook like all dealers. YOU NEED TO MAKE $50?!?!? You're only shelling out $700, what the hell is your problem?
After 40 years, I'm a smarter lazier better crook than most
Lazy as I am, I will give you a free appraisal on your offered MS67 CAC 1881-S $1 at $700.
"Get off my lawn"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
When I sell a good coin for the grade, I go to a few trusted dealers. The conversation may indeed start with 'what do you need for it'? But then it ends by us looking at auction records and discussing what the value is. Sometimes they pay what I asked as I research out the value ahead of time, sometimes they say they can't pay that much because and make a counter offer. In the end we find a price that works for both parties or we agree to not do the deal. Auction records can give everyone a good idea on the value of a coin, so it is a good place to start. HST, most of the coins I sell the start and end price is strongly over bid to published MV, no widgets. For widgets/dreck I take them to a trusted wholesaler and say pay me what you want........ They do the best they can for me with these.
@spacehayduke said:
When I sell a good coin for the grade, I go to a few trusted dealers. The conversation may indeed start with 'what do you need for it'? But then it ends by us looking at auction records and discussing what the value is. Sometimes they pay what I asked as I research out the value ahead of time, sometimes they say they can't pay that much because and make a counter offer. In the end we find a price that works for both parties or we agree to not do the deal. Auction records can give everyone a good idea on the value of a coin, so it is a good place to start. HST, most of the coins I sell the start and end price is strongly over bid to published MV, no widgets. For widgets/dreck I take them to a trusted wholesaler and say pay me what you want........ They do the best they can for me with these.
@ColonelJessup said:
I will pay over bid (on "spec") for damn near every non-widget "A" coin offered me (under, IDK, 25K?).
Please allow me some wiggle room on the other 99.9%. My buy-sell spread on anything, including an MS67 CAC 1881-S S$1 is "I don't care, I'm making $50 or I won't play".
I offer these grossly simplistic business guidelines so we can happily perform commerce upon each other as you come back again and again.
Otherwise, stop whining and get off my lawn
No, not at a show again till ANA. And I'd love the business. I'll PM and maybe we can set up something very specific with someone else nationally known before you walk thru the door. I've split great coins with likely most of them.
But my point in this thread is not that I am unique, but at a major show level, actually quite typical.
As an FYI, I just sold an 1810 $5 in PCGS MS63 CAC at Stacks for $30K all-in and you would recognize the names of the four guys who owned it before my greedy paws paid over retail for it. That's my "A" coin.
I am not as aggressive on a 1896 25c in PCGS PR67DCAM CAC, but expect I would be among 20 dealers on the floor within 20% of the guy with a clear order. And that may be your "A" coin, which I totally get.
And I may be the guy for that 1794 50c in non-CAC 45. But I don't have a customer for a 3-legger in 62 right now. Or 66
But, as an advice to the general forum membership, there are lots of straight strong buyers for wholesome coins at major shows. Many with an insight into a series that others in the same group do not share. And quite a few who will disappoint you with a fair offer at 15% back. No matter what you know.
The recipe for success is planning. Walk in the door prepared. Your work will be respected, sale or not, and someone will very likely reward you for it.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Just to add my 2 1909 s-vdb's worth. Unfortunately we are all profit motivated. I want as much as I can squeak out
Of my coin and the dealer wants to pay as little as possible so that he/she may make as much profit on the resale. If I took a coin to a sale and I didn't have at least an idea of it's worth, Shame on me . I am a collector. If a dealer used my lack of knowledge to take advantage of me, Shame on him/her. They are supposed to be professionals. The rest is just a dance of Negotiation. Some people don't like to negotiate and just want the bottom line, me , I live for the negotiation. Personally I have never in my life been insulted by anyone offering money for anything, now I have insulted a few by saying No.
By the way Robertpr's response is by far the best in this thread.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
@keets said:
**I really am trying to see where you're coming from **
my last post, but here's my take. you keep asking for explanations but aren't willing to accept anything. instead of understanding that maybe this Hobby functions a little different than what you are accustomed to you tend to think your way is the correct way.
we buy coins. we also sell coins. more often than not a customer sees something they like with a marked price and they want to pay less, so they dicker with us. go into Home Depot to buy an entrance door that's marked at $259.99 and try to get it for $199.99. it won't happen.
different areas of the economy function in different ways. all I can do is tell you what my experience in this Hobby doing retail has taught me. if you think I'm lying or making things up, OK. if you don't want to believe what me or others say, OK.
So I understand more where you're coming from with that example - but comparing a big box store to a privately owned coin shop isn't exactly apples to apples. You could definitely go into local, privately owned stores and negotiate price. Thats why I was using examples like a tv repair shop, a vacuum store etc. and not using examples like Sears and Walmart.
I haven't been unwilling to listen to why its different, nor have I suggested you were lying. I simply asked for an explaination to your very generic and broad statements that suggested the rest of us outside of the coin industry just need to remember its somehow different.
If you're comparing what happens in your store to what happens at walmart and Home depot - then I understand what you're saying.
As you mentioned keets example is a bit off. Yes one wouldn’t go to Home Depot and haggle, but you also don’t haggle when buying from Apmex or MCM (the price on their website is what you’ll pay). One would haggle at a jewelry store, flea market, or other small stores (do vacuum stores still exist? ).
I cannot believe that I got my first disagree from a post I made in 2004!
The part that is missing from the OP is the part where the coin is presented to the dealer and the dealer is asked: what do you offer me for this coin? That's when the what do you need question comes out. To me, that is rude, to answer a question with a question.
Full disclosure, since 2004 I have only sold at auction or private sale as I find dealing with most dealers very distasteful. I will take some of the heat for that due to some of my own issues, but that is how it is for me. Frankly, I am much happier not playing the game even if that may mean that at times I don't get the best deal. It is still worth it to me.
Comments
**I really am trying to see where you're coming from **
my last post, but here's my take. you keep asking for explanations but aren't willing to accept anything. instead of understanding that maybe this Hobby functions a little different than what you are accustomed to you tend to think your way is the correct way.
we buy coins. we also sell coins. more often than not a customer sees something they like with a marked price and they want to pay less, so they dicker with us. go into Home Depot to buy an entrance door that's marked at $259.99 and try to get it for $199.99. it won't happen.
different areas of the economy function in different ways. all I can do is tell you what my experience in this Hobby doing retail has taught me. if you think I'm lying or making things up, OK. if you don't want to believe what me or others say, OK.
Very interesting. I knew that the Secret Service suppressed counterfeiting but I never knew they regulated the coin industry.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So I understand more where you're coming from with that example - but comparing a big box store to a privately owned coin shop isn't exactly apples to apples. You could definitely go into local, privately owned stores and negotiate price. Thats why I was using examples like a tv repair shop, a vacuum store etc. and not using examples like Sears and Walmart.
I haven't been unwilling to listen to why its different, nor have I suggested you were lying. I simply asked for an explaination to your very generic and broad statements that suggested the rest of us outside of the coin industry just need to remember its somehow different.
If you're comparing what happens in your store to what happens at walmart and Home depot - then I understand what you're saying.
Thank you for your description - I definitely understand where you are coming from. The internet definitely is a blessing and a curse with regards to what you're dealing with also.
Its somewhat different because your wholesale is coming from the public and not from a distribution center or the factory directly. When a plumbing distributor wholesales from the company, they are mostly on the same page with all of the other shops in the area.
LOL. Suppressing counterfeiting is a form of regulation. They once showed up at our local coin club and confiscated a member's collection of counterfeits.
Who regulates landscape services? TV Repair? Shoe stores?
To those who are speaking up here the most, do you attend all the big coin shows?
No. Coin shows are different than stores, in a lot of ways. I've never had anyone come up to me at a coin show carrying 6 boxes of Grandpa's coin accumulation. Although I did once have someone come up to me with a backpack that had a few glass coffee jars full of samples of Grandpa's coin accumulation.
Offer me your nice original graded midgrade Barber Half's....I might surprise you! The percentage of nice original material in holders is fast approaching 50/50.
I will pay over bid (on "spec") for damn near every non-widget "A" coin offered me (under, IDK, 25K?).
Please allow me some wiggle room on the other 99.9%. My buy-sell spread on anything, including an MS67 CAC 1881-S S$1 is "I don't care, I'm making $50 or I won't play".
I offer these grossly simplistic business guidelines so we can happily perform commerce upon each other as you come back again and again.
Otherwise, stop whining and get off my lawn
You're just a crook like all dealers. YOU NEED TO MAKE $50?!?!? You're only shelling out $700, what the hell is your problem?
After 40 years, I'm a smarter lazier better crook than most
Lazy as I am, I will give you a free appraisal on your offered MS67 CAC 1881-S $1 at $700.
"Get off my lawn"
When I sell a good coin for the grade, I go to a few trusted dealers. The conversation may indeed start with 'what do you need for it'? But then it ends by us looking at auction records and discussing what the value is. Sometimes they pay what I asked as I research out the value ahead of time, sometimes they say they can't pay that much because and make a counter offer. In the end we find a price that works for both parties or we agree to not do the deal. Auction records can give everyone a good idea on the value of a coin, so it is a good place to start. HST, most of the coins I sell the start and end price is strongly over bid to published MV, no widgets. For widgets/dreck I take them to a trusted wholesaler and say pay me what you want........ They do the best they can for me with these.
Best, SH
Ideally, that's how it should work.
A dealer deals on a bid/ask basis. Beyond that, show the coin.
Are you set up at Central States?
No, not at a show again till ANA. And I'd love the business. I'll PM and maybe we can set up something very specific with someone else nationally known before you walk thru the door. I've split great coins with likely most of them.
But my point in this thread is not that I am unique, but at a major show level, actually quite typical.
As an FYI, I just sold an 1810 $5 in PCGS MS63 CAC at Stacks for $30K all-in and you would recognize the names of the four guys who owned it before my greedy paws paid over retail for it. That's my "A" coin.
I am not as aggressive on a 1896 25c in PCGS PR67DCAM CAC, but expect I would be among 20 dealers on the floor within 20% of the guy with a clear order. And that may be your "A" coin, which I totally get.
And I may be the guy for that 1794 50c in non-CAC 45. But I don't have a customer for a 3-legger in 62 right now. Or 66
But, as an advice to the general forum membership, there are lots of straight strong buyers for wholesome coins at major shows. Many with an insight into a series that others in the same group do not share. And quite a few who will disappoint you with a fair offer at 15% back. No matter what you know.
The recipe for success is planning. Walk in the door prepared. Your work will be respected, sale or not, and someone will very likely reward you for it.
Just to add my 2 1909 s-vdb's worth. Unfortunately we are all profit motivated. I want as much as I can squeak out
Of my coin and the dealer wants to pay as little as possible so that he/she may make as much profit on the resale. If I took a coin to a sale and I didn't have at least an idea of it's worth, Shame on me . I am a collector. If a dealer used my lack of knowledge to take advantage of me, Shame on him/her. They are supposed to be professionals. The rest is just a dance of Negotiation. Some people don't like to negotiate and just want the bottom line, me , I live for the negotiation. Personally I have never in my life been insulted by anyone offering money for anything, now I have insulted a few by saying No.
By the way Robertpr's response is by far the best in this thread.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
As you mentioned keets example is a bit off. Yes one wouldn’t go to Home Depot and haggle, but you also don’t haggle when buying from Apmex or MCM (the price on their website is what you’ll pay). One would haggle at a jewelry store, flea market, or other small stores (do vacuum stores still exist?
).
I cannot believe that I got my first disagree from a post I made in 2004!
The part that is missing from the OP is the part where the coin is presented to the dealer and the dealer is asked: what do you offer me for this coin? That's when the what do you need question comes out. To me, that is rude, to answer a question with a question.
Full disclosure, since 2004 I have only sold at auction or private sale as I find dealing with most dealers very distasteful. I will take some of the heat for that due to some of my own issues, but that is how it is for me. Frankly, I am much happier not playing the game even if that may mean that at times I don't get the best deal. It is still worth it to me.
Joe.
Great thread. My selling recently has been mostly trading in for upgrades.