I have a hard time with these being called Questionable Color - What do you think?
hutze1nm
Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
I know the origins of these coins. They are single owner coins that I submitted on behalf of a co-worker. They were stored in tissues and then the came out of the tissues and were allowed to "get bag marks" on accident. No one "played" with them to get to the color they are it was just a basement, some tissues, and improper handling.
Things I like to do: Collect PL Morgans. That’s is all.
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Compared to other toned ASEs that are getting straight graded, its questionable to call these questionable...
What I think is that PCGS has been flooded in recent years with AT ASEs that can have a similar look and that, as a response to this flood, PCGS is now calling some coins AT that they may have straight graded until very recently.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
NT Negligence Toning
What brand of tissue? Gas heated house?
...but who in today’s age stores coins in tissue paper at the corner of a basement...I think PCGS nailed it here, no offense
Just look at your description of "how to artificially tone coins" and then you say you have a hard time believing it?
Watch this video and you might start thinking twice about toned coins:
One might have gotten graded with other normals, but when entire submission of four coins look similar, probably raises a flag.
Sorry not impressive. That doesnt make me question all toned coins. Show me a video where someone can put rainbow rim toning only on coins that arent pure silver. Toning ASEs and silver rounds with blueish color is one thing. Toning silver dollars and clad coins is another.
JMO I don't think PCGS is saying you intentionally toned these coins but I think they are saying they probably shouldn't be this color.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I had one stored in toilet tissue for 15 years and it just turned brown
Unquestionably questionable
Latin American Collection
I am glad PCGS is being picky in the toning arena, but I have no doubt there are some NT's that don't make it through.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Over the years I have received some ASEs for speaking at local clubs. Some of these pieces were housed in small cases with velvet liners. a couple pieces have toned nicely on one side, but when I tried to flip them to see if the other side would turn, it has not worked.
I don't need post another video just because that one does not impress you. That video I posted merely shows how it can be done in the most basic scientific way and is not the only way to do it. If you can't see the forest for the trees, you not looking.
You made a generalized statement that because someone can tone a silver round with chemicals and an electrical current that all toned coins should be called into question.... thats laughable. You're comparing apples to Cadillacs to try to prove your point. Try again...
@TonerGuy said: "You made a generalized statement that because someone can tone a silver round with chemicals and an electrical current that all toned coins should be called into question.... thats laughable. You're comparing apples to Cadillacs to try to prove your point. Try again..."
Yes! Need more videos, very informative!
Used TP?
Ahhh...Now we know why there's a shortage of fast-food joint paper napkins ! Next will come the run of acrylic paint.
My YouTube Channel
Sorry not impressive. That doesnt make me question all toned coins. Show me a video where someone can put rainbow rim toning only on coins that arent pure silver. Toning ASEs and silver rounds with blueish color is one thing. Toning silver dollars and clad coins is another.
you're really missing the point. this was a brief demonstration and if you can't think outside the box a little you are lost.
I have a hard time understanding some posts on here sometimes.
No Im not missing the point. Because someone can tone a pure silver round blue doesnt mean its easy to tone it a variety of other colors. If his point was perhaps PCGS rejected the ASEs posted by the OP because blues and purples are easy to add to pure silver coins I would have wholeheartedly agreed. It is easy and its one of the colors that I look for when trying to decide if a coin is AT/NT. To extrapolate blue is easy therefore any color is easy is simply not correct.
Im tired of people who dont understand toning posting that all toned coins must be fake or doctored.
I can easily post a video of someone dipping a coin and then say "hey look all your bright shiny coins from the 19th century have been doctored because look how easy it is to dip coins... " Surface alteration is surface alteration....
Those videos dont exist. The people (doctors) who know how to do it and do it so their work gets into PCGS slabs and sell for a premium arent about to give away their secrets on a YouTube video... and there arent that many that can do.
@TonerGuy
I'm going to guess that you are very informed about toning. Any ideas about how it is done?
No Im not missing the point.
to my way of thinking, the sole point of the linked video was to demonstrate a very specific way of achieving color. if you look past that and are unwilling to admit that there are people AT'ing coins, then yes, you missed the point.
Are those coin on eBay? If the price is right I like to buy one or two.
Sorry, they aren’t for sale. My coworker’s dad passed them down to her and she asked me to submit them mostly for memory preservation. She was a little upset that they got the questionable color designation but getting them graded wasn’t necessarily the point as much as was getting them slabbed and photographed for posterity.
You must have missed my thread where AT coins in PCGS slabs was discussed extensively... I know of a lot of the AT coins in PCGS and NCG holders and own several - purchased even though I knew they were AT or likely AT. Ive even met a few people that do know how to tone coins that are far more complex than just blue/purple.
20 yrs of specializing in certain series of toned coins - mostly Peace $ and modern clad coins. I know nothing about toned Morgans... I feel that toning is that specialized. I know Peace $ toning but that doesnt mean I know Morgan toning. Planchet prep, washes and storage have a lot to do with toning... so for someone to say they know toning - to me - thats like saying they are an expert on all coinage. Thats almost impossible.
When you say "how is it done?" - what exactly do you mean ? Do you mean how can you AT coins to look NT ? Or to look MA and get slabbed by PCGS ? MA isnt that hard -- to make them look NT is especially difficult. And it also depends on your definition of what AT is - to me - the coins posted above are not AT - if the OP is to be believed that they were stored in tissue in the basement for years as they toned. Applying chemicals to the coin (gas or liquid) that tones coins in minutes and can be easily replicated is AT to me.
But there are AT coins I would buy, knowingly, and collect simply because they are works of art and have been deemed to be MA by PCGS or NGC.
Maybe we need to state the obvious. Anyone who buys an ASE should never expect the type of toning that is 100 years old. To me they intentional toning on ASE's is no different than painted ASE's like below. I think of them as the same - doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.
There are many methods of AT, and, as noted above, the methods have advanced over the years. I have mentioned many times the couple of years I spent experimenting with tarnish and presently I am about to embark on and experiment for @lkeigwin (got the materials finally)...While some silver (such as the OP) is tarnished unintentionally, there is a flood of AT coins on the market due to the profits. While there are indications that can reveal some AT coins... the one's done by the masters cannot be conclusively determined, since current methods simply accelerate a natural process. The video simply shows a primitive method and I used that one in experiments back in 2001. Cheers, RickO
How easy is it to mimic or copy the NT found on classic commems that are very particular to the packaging for that particular year?
** the one's done by the masters cannot be conclusively determined**
exactly. and when someone stumbles onto a method which looks legitimate and can be replicated it bodes well for all of us. while I don't mean to impugn the OP, the "story" has all the hallmarks of a good urban legend: they are the property of a co-worker who I can vouche for, trust me because I trust him.
simple solution for PCGS . They need to refuse to grade any modern bullion coins beyond the year they are struck.
Going forward all ase's in slabs will be white.
that would work and the supply would still be endless.
At least if we knew the cut off date we would know thereafter they went in to the slab white. They probably view anyone sending in multiple 20 year old ASE's for grading , whether toned or blast white as questionable. I mean seriously , if you are sending dozens of blast white ASE's from the early 90's you are probably a tone in slab doc. If you are sending lots of early 90's colored ASE's you are the other kind of doc. It seems like it would be smarter to send them white , it wastes less money in grading fees.
CAC is managing to survive while refusing to touch certain things , I think the grading services would manage. Another idea is to just charge a really crazy high price to grade any modern bullion dreck. Destroy the business model of that kind of doc . You want a bullion ASE graded ? that will be $200 bucks please.
Or maybe send someone to the submitters house to slap them upside the head and throw some airtights at them
Can you or anyone show any proof of this ? And by proof I mean video evidence of someone toning an ASE (or any other coin for that matter) inside a PCGS slab ?
I must of missed the thread where that video was posted. Otherwise its nothing more than denial at worst or supposition at best....
Occam's Razor says its probably AT coins just getting by the graders at PCGS. I know for some that post here it just might be too unbelievable to think that PCGS could make such mistakes but there is no doubt it happens.
If you are talking about edynamicmarketing being an in the slab doctor - then answer these two questions...
1) Why is he selling toned coins in genuine holders if he knows how to tone them in the slab ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-S-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Penny-PCGS-PR-Genuine-Unique-Target-Multi-Toned/272987231117?hash=item3f8f4e938d:g:DKUAAOSwDvdZzUdV
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-D-Mint-State-Eisenhower-Ike-Dollar-PCGS-Genuine-Dark-Rainbow-Color-Toned/272988477442?hash=item3f8f619802:g:bvQAAOSwT5xZQDB0 (this one looks just like the 72-D below that was straight graded in a 6.0 slab)
2) How can he tone coins in PCGS's new 6.0 slab which is supposedly airtight according to PCGS ? (https://www.pcgs.com/news/PCGS-Introduces-Superior-New-Holder)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-D-Mint-State-Eisenhower-Ike-Dollar-PCGS-MS62-Light-Rainbow-Color-Toned/272987226253?hash=item3f8f4e808d:g:opQAAOSwvflZQCPj
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-D-Mint-State-Eisenhower-Ike-Dollar-PCGS-MS64-Deep-Multi-Color-Toned/282777862492?hash=item41d6dfc15c:g:N-MAAOSwAO9ZQCLT
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Mint-State-Eisenhower-Ike-Dollar-PCGS-MS62-Dark-Rainbow-Color-Toned/282777888039?hash=item41d6e02527:g:hIEAAOSwcj5ZQCH2
The evidence points to the likely fact that these coins were toned outside the holder and graded by PCGS...
Didn't we see evidence of certs pulled by PCGS (of some of edynamicmarketing's coins)?
Lance.
Yeah that's true I would be skeptical of me too. The only difference is that I have nothing to gain, I was just asking for people's opinions and secondly I was asked if they were for sale and they aren't because they aren't mine and they mean a lot to the person who submitted them... I am not trying to gain anything financially nor do I have any ulterior motives. I just wanted to gain knowledge as to not make a similar mistake again.
the toned coin market can be very speculative..........................and dangerous.
AFAIK, there is no such thing as an air-tight slab. I have watched coins being toned inside a slab. No special equipment of any kind was used except for a fume hood.
Now, these are the" qualifications" of my post:
No attempt was made at that time to produce "rainbow" colors as that was not the point of the demonstration. Apparently, it can be done. THE BIG CAVEAT:
The experiment was done 11 - 12 years ago. The major TPGS may have improved their slabs since then. I know there have been visual changes to some.
PCGS advertises their Gen 5.0 holder (2015-current) to be airtight...
https://www.pcgs.com/news/PCGS-Introduces-Superior-New-Holder
Im sure PCGS tested this holder to make sure that no one can gas the coin in the slab....
Thanks for the update; however, this: "...the new holder's airtight DESIGN.
I'll bet if you check that for at least the last two decades, all the TPGS claimed to have an airtight holder.
Im going to bet that PCGS tested and re-tested this holder to make sure it wasnt a false claim. Otherwise that is a class action lawsuit. Airtight is a claim of fact that can be proven or disproven - its not puffery.
NEW tissue, BS, NEW tissue PUHLEASE
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
No. There are "bullion" versions in special sets that may be kept unopened for a few years or more. Your way of doing it would preclude those from being graded....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I don't understand THIS part....
"and were allowed to "get bag marks" on accident"
How do you "allow" something "on accident". It is either accidental or it is allowed.
I'm going to guess it means "not stored/cared for very well after taken out of tissue and allowed to contact each other/things"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I'm thinking that no bullion coin should ever be allowed to be graded. Keep the special stuff in the special OGP it came in. When it comes to classic coins grading has a purpose but other than being a cash cow for grading companies and flippers I see no reason for graded bullion to exist at all.
Just the other day I dug out the two 2011 5 coin sets I have to see how they are holding up. One coin in each set is just starting to tone along the edge. Nothing spectacular at the rate its going I don't think the other 4 in each set will ever tone. When someone sells them after I keel over I'm okay with them getting spot times five for the lot.
@bronco2078 said: "I'm thinking that no bullion coin should ever be allowed to be graded."
LOL. You deserve a BIG FAT "Disagree;" however, I'm still in a holiday spirit.
I'm thinking
that no baseball cards should be graded and card collectors should stay...! 
I hope you see how ridiculous my posted statement and the self edit (...!) is.
Collect what you want to collect for the sheer joy of it. Thats not what this is about.
This is about flipping and monetizing collectibles. As a collector thats not in my best interest to enable