DW blog--how can a coin's selling price ever be completely disconnected from auction results?

Longacre · June 13, 2017 10:56AM

I was reading the latest Doug Winter blog about freshness of coins and their appearance in the market. In the blog, DW made the following statement, which was curious to me:

"A number of years ago I made a business decision to try and buy a significant percentage of my inventory from non-conventional sources (i.e., [not from] auctions). The increasing transparency of the market meant that the days of buying coins at a Heritage sale for X dollars and selling them as-is for X+20% was over. In order to stay a step ahead of my competitors I would have to find coins which had never appeared at auction and price them based on coins which had appeared at auction. This meant more work for me but it doomed other dealers who were lazy or unimaginative."

Questions:

I understand that all coins are unique, but how can a coin's selling price ever be completely disconnected from auction results? It appears from the statement above, that a coin purchased by a dealer from a non-convention source (i.e., not from an auction) will allow for greater pricing flexibility on the ultimate sale to the next customer. How can that be?
If DW prices his non-conventional sourced coin based on auction results as noted in his quote, doesn't that inextricably link his non-conventional coin to the auction coins that he is trying not to reference?
Does this method of pricing almost ensure that other qualitative factors of the coin need to be stressed, such as prior pedigree, sourcing, freshness to the market (by definition it is fresh because it did not come out of an auction), or the backstory on the coin, which are all great factors, but how much of those factors should be reflected in the price?
Does this method of pricing help to drive up subsequent auction results (assuming the coins will ultimately go into an auction) if they are so nice, or does it drive down the auction prices because these supposedly nice, fresh pieces will contrast greatly with the common dreck that appears at auctions?
What are your other comments on this method of doing business and pricing coins?

10000lakes · June 13, 2017 11:06AM

"buying coins at a Heritage sale for X dollars and selling them as-is for X+20% was over"
This is especially true if the grade/service/bean didn't change and it has a new cert#.
That's means to me that all upgrade avenues have been tried. You would be lucky to get anything close to your original cost on resale if that all happened recently.

JJSingleton · June 13, 2017 11:32AM

Geez Longacre. I read your entire post twice and my head is spinning. And honestly, I have not had a thing to drink today...yet.

Zoins · June 13, 2017 12:01PM

@Longacre said:
I was reading the latest Doug Winter blog about freshness of coins and their appearance in the market. In the blog, DW made the following statement, which was curious to me:

"A number of years ago I made a business decision to try and buy a significant percentage of my inventory from non-conventional sources (i.e., [not from] auctions). The increasing transparency of the market meant that the days of buying coins at a Heritage sale for X dollars and selling them as-is for X+20% was over. In order to stay a step ahead of my competitors I would have to find coins which had never appeared at auction and price them based on coins which had appeared at auction. This meant more work for me but it doomed other dealers who were lazy or unimaginative."

Questions:

I understand that all coins are unique, but how can a coin's selling price ever be completely disconnected from auction results? It appears from the statement above, that a coin purchased by a dealer from a non-convention source (i.e., not from an auction) will allow for greater pricing flexibility on the ultimate sale to the next customer. How can that be?

If DW prices his non-conventional sourced coin based on auction results as noted in his quote, doesn't that inextricably link his non-conventional coin to the auction coins that he is trying not to reference?

Does this method of pricing almost ensure that other qualitative factors of the coin need to be stressed, such as prior pedigree, sourcing, freshness to the market (by definition it is fresh because it did not come out of an auction), or the backstory on the coin, which are all great factors, but how much of those factors should be reflected in the price?

Does this method of pricing help to drive up subsequent auction results (assuming the coins will ultimately go into an auction) if they are so nice, or does it drive down the auction prices because these supposedly nice, fresh pieces will contrast greatly with the common dreck that appears at auctions?

What are your other comments on this method of doing business and pricing coins?

It doesn't seem like he's saying he's disconnecting non-auction sourced coins from auction prices. He says the opposite in your quote:

I would have to find coins which had never appeared at auction and price them based on coins which had appeared at auction.

My guess is that he's saying, if he can get a good deal on a coin he used to be able to sell at it HA+20%, but with more transparency there is pressure on that margin for that specific coin. If you can source a coin without a price history for a greater margin, you can sell it at the market rate for similar auction coins, not a small margin over what you paid for a specific coin.

amwldcoin · June 13, 2017 12:59PM

It is very difficult to source coins that way these days! I would think especially for the type coins he likes to sell!

Zoins · June 13, 2017 1:02PM

@amwldcoin said:
It is very difficult to source coins that way these days! I would think especially for the type coins he likes to sell!

This is interesting from the article:

Doug Winter wrote:
This meant more work for me but it doomed other dealers who were lazy or unimaginative.

Boosibri · June 13, 2017 1:49PM

@amwldcoin said:
It is very difficult to source coins that way these days! I would think especially for the type coins he likes to sell!

And yet he does. It is a barrier to entry for a specialized competitor as there is likely only room for a few at the retail level.

mercurydimeguy · June 13, 2017 1:57PM

I would almost suspect that Heritage is the mark for "true retail" when one thinks about coins that can be acquired readily...the same year, grade, and sticker coin will routinely sell for less on eBay and even in dealer inventory. Every Heritage sale I scratch my head as to why people would pay those prices and wait months for the sales to happen when the coins can be acquired in other venues for same or less money, on any given day.

Now if you are looking for things that only surface 1x-3x per year, this is an entirely different market with it's own ebbs and flows...and generally speaking DW tries to play in this market.

carabonnair · June 13, 2017 2:03PM

I think there are always opportunities for specialist dealers who help build collections and then are offered back when it comes time to sell. If they can offer better quality or terms than big auctions, a loyal clientele and success follows.

neildrobertson · June 13, 2017 2:10PM

It's not a method of pricing. It's more of a method of buying. What I've learned from most people in the resale industry be it houses, coins, or something else is that the profit is always on the buy side.

MrEureka · June 13, 2017 2:29PM

Seems to me that it's mostly dealers, not collectors, who tend the get scared off by auction records. Of course, even a collector might get scared off if the markup seems excessive. Bottom line: Dealers need to learn how to better retail their own coins, and they need to work closer. Preferably, with a low overhead.

Zoins · June 13, 2017 2:32PM

@MrEureka said:
Seems to me that it's mostly dealers, not collectors, who tend the get scared off by auction records. Of course, even a collector might get scared off if the markup seems excessive. Bottom line: Dealers need to learn how to better retail their own coins, and they need to work closer. Preferably, with a low overhead.

That seems to be the case to me too. With auction records, there is more transparency and dealers need to justify their markup. Laura seems to do a good job justifying the value Legend brings. Others need to do the same.

BillJones · June 13, 2017 2:41PM

Doug Winter buys a lot of coins at the shows before the show even starts. At one point he stated that he was able to buy these coins before those who attend the shows even get a crack at them. Given the fact that I can't find anything decent at the shows any more, even a big show like winter FUN, perhaps he is right. He is able to soak up almost all of the good deals before the doors open.

So far as the auction prices go, he’s right. The prices realized in the Heritage auctions are often at the retail level and beyond. The 17.5% buyers' fee has made things worse. And yes, there are bidder who ignore it, all the time given what they bid and pay. I’m learning that lesson every time I bid.

Time was, I used to know where to buy nice coins. I don’t know where they are any more, and it’s not a matter of being a cheapskate who is not willing to pay a fair price. The sources have just dried up, and all I find know are a few hit and miss items like a 1798 large cent in AU-53, CAC and a 1797 16 star LM-3 half dime in AU-53. Those coins were to the corner of my radar. I have seen very few of the coins that are on my main list, and a couple them don’t have big reputations as rarities.

Gazes · June 13, 2017 3:20PM

Some dealers won't buy a coin from a collector if it was purchased at auction within the past 3 or 4 years.

Zoins · June 13, 2017 3:22PM

@Gazes said:
Some dealers won't buy a coin from a collector if it was purchased at auction within the past 3 or 4 years.

Why not?

What if it happened the other way and collectors didn't purchase from dealers if a coin was purchased at auction within the past 3 or 4 years?

Gazes · June 13, 2017 3:46PM

@Zoins said:

@Gazes said:
Some dealers won't buy a coin from a collector if it was purchased at auction within the past 3 or 4 years.

Why not?

What if it happened the other way and collectors didn't purchase from dealers if a coin was purchased at auction within the past 3 or 4 years?

I will let others weigh in. I'm just repeating what a fairly well known dealer told me when I was selling a few coins (not doug). At the end of the day a dealer and a buyer can do whatever they want

logger7 · June 13, 2017 4:23PM

Sellers at shows and elsewhere can be really intimidated by the experts and big names in the business and feel that selling at bargain prices is a necessary part of doing business in coins. Of course there are solutions to hold to more like retail prices when the smaller dealers set up at shows with quality or fresh inventory, but it is hard.

Coinosaurus · June 13, 2017 4:36PM

Yes, yes, yes. This is how it's supposed to work. Heritage (and others) have increased market transparency to the point that the old model of dealers flipping coins out of auctions doesn't work. I've had people tell me (in all seriousness) that this is a screwed up model and that PRLs should not be published for several weeks after an auction. Folks, that ship has sailed. Ain't gonna happen. DW now creates value in other ways besides sitting in an auction room until 2am. This makes it even better for collectors because now they have an option of shopping auctions AND shopping the specialist dealers who won't carry the auction retreads.

ranshdow · June 13, 2017 4:37PM

@neildrobertson said:
It's not a method of pricing. It's more of a method of buying. What I've learned from most people in the resale industry be it houses, coins, or something else is that the profit is always on the buy side.

Agree. Doug is engaging in a form of arbitrage where his access, knowledge, and likely his financial wherewithal give him an edge, on the wholesale buy side, as the buyer of choice for such material. That edge translates to a greater margin.

ricko · June 14, 2017 6:25AM

With the market transparency offered by the internet, pricing of coins at auction or web sales is available to all who will do the research. Private sales may be the last treasure hunt available....and those represent a lot of work (less if one has a B&M shop). Cheers, RickO

ColonelJessup · June 14, 2017 12:22PM

@BillJones said:
Doug Winter buys a lot of coins at the shows before the show even starts. At one point he stated that he was able to buy these coins before those who attend the shows even get a crack at them. Given the fact that I can't find anything decent at the shows any more, even a big show like winter FUN, perhaps he is right. He is able to soak up almost all of the good deals before the doors open.

So far as the auction prices go, he’s right. The prices realized in the Heritage auctions are often at the retail level and beyond. The 17.5% buyers' fee has made things worse. And yes, there are bidder who ignore it, all the time given what they bid and pay. I’m learning that lesson every time I bid.

Time was, I used to know where to buy nice coins. I don’t know where they are any more, and it’s not a matter of being a cheapskate who is not willing to pay a fair price. The sources have just dried up, and all I find know are a few hit and miss items like a 1798 large cent in AU-53, CAC and a 1797 16 star LM-3 half dime in AU-53. Those coins were to the corner of my radar. I have seen very few of the coins that are on my main list, and a couple them don’t have big reputations as rarities.

This poster has posted more valuable information here than anyone else since I've been here.
But the above is not true for people who can do arithmetic at the 5th grade level.
Please don't make me post the damn chart again. It may hold you back, but don't encourage other people to cheat themselves.

Hard work and imagination. DW has been known to think (and know) more than most

Zoins · June 14, 2017 12:59PM

It might make things easier if the hammer was the total price paid including Buyer's Premium, the Sold For Price. The Buyer's Premium can be deducted from the hammer. The money to the auction house and the seller would be the same but bidding could be easier since bidders would be bidding what they pay, not what they pay plus the Buyer's Premium.

BillJones · June 14, 2017 1:12PM

@ColonelJessup said:

@BillJones said:
Doug Winter buys a lot of coins at the shows before the show even starts. At one point he stated that he was able to buy these coins before those who attend the shows even get a crack at them. Given the fact that I can't find anything decent at the shows any more, even a big show like winter FUN, perhaps he is right. He is able to soak up almost all of the good deals before the doors open.

So far as the auction prices go, he’s right. The prices realized in the Heritage auctions are often at the retail level and beyond. The 17.5% buyers' fee has made things worse. And yes, there are bidder who ignore it, all the time given what they bid and pay. I’m learning that lesson every time I bid.

Time was, I used to know where to buy nice coins. I don’t know where they are any more, and it’s not a matter of being a cheapskate who is not willing to pay a fair price. The sources have just dried up, and all I find know are a few hit and miss items like a 1798 large cent in AU-53, CAC and a 1797 16 star LM-3 half dime in AU-53. Those coins were to the corner of my radar. I have seen very few of the coins that are on my main list, and a couple them don’t have big reputations as rarities.

This poster has posted more valuable information here than anyone else since I've been here.
But the above is not true for people who can do arithmetic at the 5th grade level.
Please don't make me post the damn chart again. It may hold you back, but don't encourage other people to cheat themselves.

Hard work and imagination. DW has been known to think (and know) more than most

I know what you have written about the buyers' fee, and I sit there with a calculator and figure it into the equation when I am figuring my bids. But what happens in the real world of bidding and SHOULD HAPPEN are two different things.

Some people have so much money they don’t care. In the 1930s there were auction bidders who put up BUY orders as their bid. That called for the auction house to outbid the highest amount bid no matter what. I have no idea what they did if they got two or more BUY orders for the same lot.

I have run into this on the Heritage auction and in some token and medal auctions. How in hell does a rational person pay almost $20,000 for an 1877 Twenty Cent Piece in NGC PR-63, Cameo that has been dipped and has marks all over it? The thing looked like “C coin” to me. I didn’t even consider bidding on it because I knew it would not make me happy. This was the same as “BUY” bid so far as I’m concerned. That bidder didn’t give a rat’s tail about the buyers’ fee. He was going to buy that lot come hell or high water.

I have seen where my Heritage purchases have gone since the buyers’ fee was raised from 15% to 17.50%. The amount I have to pay has gone up relative to previous auction results and catalog quotes. The higher buyers’ fee has cost me money.

For political items the Heritage buyers’ fee is 25%. That has severely limited my participation in those auctions. I can buy the same items from other major political items auction houses for less money because their buyers’ fees are 12 or 15 percent. One guy has no buyers’ fee. The political items people bid as if the buyers’ fee is not even there.

You can yell at me all you want about how I’m stupid, but as my economics professor said in college, “If the theory does not work in the real world, it is not a good theory.” High buyers’ fees benefit the auction house and sometimes the consigners if they get a kickback. They make life more expensive for successful auction bidders in many cases. That has been my real world experience.

We shall agree to disagree on this point.

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 2:14PM

Please remember I am just an uninformed numismatist who is not familiar with the goings on at the big auction houses or the commercial market place ... so go easy...LOL! I want to pretend I can post with the "big dogs."

@logger7 said: "Sellers at shows and elsewhere can be really intimidated by the experts and big names in the business and feel that selling at bargain prices is a necessary part of doing business in coins."

Perhaps, but I should rather believe sellers at shows who blow out coins at low prices do so because they need the money or more likely because the big names don't offer them much more than a bargain price. When you don't need money, you don't need to sell until the price is right.

@Longacre asked: "I understand that all coins are unique, but how can a coin's selling price ever be completely disconnected from auction results?"

Easy, lot's of collectors such as myself have no clue what a coin may be worth. A dealer can price it to one of us fools for anything he wants. If he sells to an informed collector, then any previous sale prices come into effect.

@Longacre said: "A coin purchased by a dealer from a non-convention source (i.e., not from an auction) will allow for greater pricing flexibility on the ultimate sale to the next customer. How can that be?"

See above. Obviously, if a dealer buys a coin "right" he has flexibility with the final sale.

@Longacre asked: "If DW prices his non-conventional sourced coin based on auction results as noted in his quote, doesn't that inextricably link his non-conventional coin to the auction coins that he is trying not to reference?"

Yes, to an informed buyer.

@Zoins said: "My guess is that he's saying, if he can get a good deal on a coin he used to be able to sell at it HA+20%, but with more transparency there is pressure on that margin for that specific coin. If you can source a coin without a price history for a greater margin, you can sell it at the market rate for similar auction coins, not a small margin over what you paid for a specific coin."

That's what I read.

@amwldcoin said: "It is very difficult to source coins that way these days! I would think especially for the type coins he likes to sell!"

I don't know DW. I have read several things he has written about "original" gold. I admire the man and I wish him a continued prosperous business. BUT...and on this opinion you can take the gloves off

IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted! They all got dipped or conserved. The name "dirty gold" is actually not what they are. Chemical colors on a coin's surface are not dirt. The truly "dirty gold" coins have actual black dirt on their surfaces. This push for originality...LOL has been booming. It has caused the intelligent coin doctors and counterfeiters to start applying actual dirt to many of their products. Many love them but not me.

What do you think about that?

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 4:37PM

@Justacommeman

You are keeping very uninformed company in my post above. While @FellintoOblivion knows nothing about coins, I should expect much more than one of her "Drive-By Pot-Shots" from an expert, 5 Star member such as yourself. Bless her little heart, she has an excuse that can possibly be fixed with something.

For now, I'll just believe you are too busy at the moment to post. Hopefully, sometime this week you will take the time to educate me. I'll look forward to reading the statements of mine that you disagree with. Perhaps it will help the newbie who is "stalking" me too.

Justacommeman · June 14, 2017 4:44PM

Hiya Insider2

I don't know who you are speaking about above. I just happened to disagree with a few things in that particular post. Rather then elaborate or be drawn into a debate I just hit "disagree". That's what those icons are for. If I wanted to debate I would have quoted and replied. It's no big deal

mark

kaz · June 14, 2017 5:26PM

"IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted! They all got dipped or conserved. The name "dirty gold" is actually not what they are. Chemical colors on a coin's surface are not dirt. The truly "dirty gold" coins have actual black dirt on their surfaces. This push for originality...LOL has been booming. It has caused the intelligent coin doctors and counterfeiters to start applying actual dirt to many of their products. Many love them but not me." (quote from Insider2)

can you post examples to illustrate your assertion?

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 6:17PM

@kaz asked: "Can you post examples to illustrate your assertion?"

No, I don't keep ugly coins around. When I see 'em they get downgraded for very low eye appeal.

There is an entire multi-page thread "Post your dirty gold" or something like that for folks who collect them. I have no issue with those guys, it is their money and there taste.

I will try to find the thread for you tomorrow.

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 7:04PM

@kaz "How about an old dirty gold thread"

There is not much wrong with most of the coins on this thread. Just old circulated gold. You'll need to go to page three before the nasty coins show up...LOL.

There are much worse on a similar thread on CT site.

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 7:40PM

@Justacommeman said:
Hiya Insider2

I don't know who you are speaking about above. I just happened to disagree with a few things in that particular post. Rather then elaborate or be drawn into a debate I just hit "disagree". That's what those icons are for. If I wanted to debate I would have quoted and replied. It's no big deal

mark

Mark,

What you did is a big thing to me. I stand by my post and my disappointment with you. I understand it's no big deal to you as I'm a nobody like the childish little troll who does the same thing. Posting takes knowledge, time, effort, and thoughtful insight. Pushing the disagree button w/o comment is lame!

BTW, I have pushed that button perhaps twenty times in the past. Then, I quickly deleted my disagreement (except for a few) and instead informed the poster what I didn't agree with. Many times they never replied. Most of the time I'll take that as a "checkmate." When they replied, others chimed in and hopefully we all left the thread wiser for our efforts.

Earlier today I wrote a moderator here about the quality of the CU members. You fit that mold. I feel this site is for education as well as friendship, humor and bantering. I learn lots from the 3,4, and 5 star debates. However, I can understand how much of this can be "below" a numismatist of your stature (?).

Anyway, I'll get over this snub in a few more minutes...:) Hopefully in the future you might favor me with a real reply. I'm sure others would like to know what's on your mind too.

Best Regards, Nemo Farnsworth, III

Insider2 · June 14, 2017 7:53PM

@Boosibri

Oh no, not you too. Just another fly-by made by a 5 star member with no reason posted for his disagreement....LOL. Actually, I'm truly honored. I knew that bashing a professional numismatist of DW's stature would bring out his friends. I'm hoping he is a member here or is informed of my opinion so I get a chance to defend it. However, sometime it is best to let the squeaky wheel keep squeaking until it falls off...right. He is just one more dealer here I plan to look up at a major show. Unfortunately I'll miss Baltimore.

Hope your trip over the pond went well.

Zoins · June 14, 2017 8:52PM

@Insider2 said:
I don't know DW. I have read several things he has written about "original" gold. I admire the man and I wish him a continued prosperous business. BUT...and on this opinion you can take the gloves off
IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted! They all got dipped or conserved. The name "dirty gold" is actually not what they are. Chemical colors on a coin's surface are not dirt. The truly "dirty gold" coins have actual black dirt on their surfaces. This push for originality...LOL has been booming. It has caused the intelligent coin doctors and counterfeiters to start applying actual dirt to many of their products. Many love them but not me.
What do you think about that?

Nothing wrong with carving out a nitch in formerly unloved coins. The hobby is filled with them, e.g. toners, lowballs, chop marks, Leshers, the list goes on. If dirty old gold (DOG) coins used to be dipped and are now cherished, nothing wrong with that.

I do find the comment on doctoring and counterfeiting interesting. Do you know that people are creating artificial dirt? Have the TPGs slabbed any coins with artificial dirt to your knowledge?

Justacommeman · June 14, 2017 9:46PM

@Insider2

I work in Mexico and I really didnt have the time to do the cut and past thing In the moment. Our lunch hours are a mess here and I was just surfing the site. I'm sorry the disagree button doesn't work for you. It's there for a reason just like the other buttons.

mark

@insider2 said
Please remember I am just an uninformed numismatist who is not familiar with the goings on at the big auction houses or the commercial market place ... so go easy...LOL! I want to pretend I can post with the "big dogs."

@mark says

BS.

For the record that was my main disagree

For the record Ive never met DW nor have I ever bought a coin from him. I've tried and I'm sure I will one day. I thought your comments on him were flippant and you were just trying to stir the pot. That was another disagree.

To be honest your posting style and volleys and digs remind me of a poster from Sleepy Hollow that forced me to quit that site. I might be wrong.

You seem like a bright guy. All the best to you. Really.

mark

Boosibri · June 14, 2017 11:39PM

@Insider2 said:
@Boosibri

Oh no, not you too. Just another fly-by made by a 5 star member with no reason posted for his disagreement....LOL. Actually, I'm truly honored. I knew that bashing a professional numismatist of DW's stature would bring out his friends. I'm hoping he is a member here or is informed of my opinion so I get a chance to defend it. However, sometime it is best to let the squeaky wheel keep squeaking until it falls off...right. H e is just one more dealer here I plan to look up at a major show. Unfortunately I'll miss Baltimore.

Hope your trip over the pond went well.

Disagree... better?

Honestly I don't have time in my work day to sit and type a long response to you, especially as @Justacommeman says, I think you are just stirring the pop with nothing to add yourself.

TwoSides2aCoin · June 15, 2017 5:10AM

@MrEureka said:
Seems to me that it's mostly dealers, not collectors, who tend the get scared off by auction records. Of course, even a collector might get scared off if the markup seems excessive. Bottom line: Dealers need to learn how to better retail their own coins, and they need to work closer. Preferably, with a low overhead.

Great point. Speaking of overhead... when eBay fees exceed the lease on a brick & mortar, it's time to get a briefcase and a vest.

MrEureka · June 15, 2017 6:05AM

On the buyers premium, yes, some people really don't get "5th grade math" and really don't consider the cost. And yes, sometimes they will be your underbidders. Just not all that often.

neildrobertson · June 15, 2017 6:15AM

@BillJones said:
So far as the auction prices go, he’s right. The prices realized in the Heritage auctions are often at the retail level and beyond. The 17.5% buyers' fee has made things worse. And yes, there are bidder who ignore it, all the time given what they bid and pay. I’m learning that lesson every time I bid.

It's probably safe to say that a decent portion of the money that used to go to dealers now goes to Auction fees and TPGs. If you think about the amount of money spent on slabbing coins over 30 years, that was available capital to be spent on coins. That money could have ended up in dealers or collector's pockets one way or another.

BillJones · June 15, 2017 6:57AM

IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted!

He has expanded the market for Charlotte and Dahlonega gold which is perhaps more often than not "ugly" in some people's eyes. The fact is most any Charlotte or Dahlonega piece which is attractive gets a WOW!!!! from collectors in the know. The average pieces, which you might call "ugly" are the only pieces most of us ever get a chance to buy.

Justacommeman · June 15, 2017 7:46AM

@BillJones said:

IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted!

He has expanded the market for Charlotte and Dahlonega gold which is perhaps more often than not "ugly" in some people's eyes. The fact is most any Charlotte or Dahlonega piece which is attractive gets a WOW!!!! from collectors in the know. The average pieces, which you might call "ugly" are the only pieces most of us ever get a chance to buy.

Bingo. Great point.

mark

Justacommeman · June 15, 2017 7:55AM

@BillJones said:

IMHO, DW has etched out a market in ugly gold coins (with some colorful, attractive exceptions) that a decade or two ago no one wanted!

He has expanded the market for Charlotte and Dahlonega gold which is perhaps more often than not "ugly" in some people's eyes. The fact is most any Charlotte or Dahlonega piece which is attractive gets a WOW!!!! from collectors in the know. The average pieces, which you might call "ugly" are the only pieces most of us ever get a chance to buy.

BINGO. Well said BillJones

mark

Insider2 · June 15, 2017 9:43AM

@Zoins said: "Nothing wrong with carving out a nitch in formerly unloved coins. The hobby is filled with them, e.g. toners, lowballs, chop marks, Leshers, the list goes on. If dirty old gold (DOG) coins used to be dipped and are now cherished, nothing wrong with that."

I'm in 100% agreement. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

"I do find the comment on doctoring and counterfeiting interesting. Do you know that people are creating artificial dirt? Have the TPGs slabbed any coins with artificial dirt to your knowledge?"

Actually, yes to both questions. You'll need to be curious for a few more months. For now, there is a thread somewhere on this site about an unpublished article from a long-time TPGS authenticator I got to read..

Insider2 · June 15, 2017 10:20AM

@Justacommeman said: "I work in Mexico and I really didnt have the time to do the cut and past thing In the moment. Our lunch hours are a mess here and I was just surfing the site. I'm sorry the disagree button doesn't work for you. It's there for a reason just like the other buttons."

I was going to guess you are Clyde Hubbard using "Mark" as an alias! Don't they have Siesta's down there or has that changed.

@insider2 said: "Please remember I am just an uninformed numismatist who is not familiar with the goings on at the big auction houses or the commercial market place ... so go easy...LOL! I want to pretend I can post with the "big dogs."

Mark said: "BS. For the record that was my main disagree."

OK, got me! Uniformed numismatist: I like to think that's mostly BS. As for auction houses, commercial coin market: I plead true ignorance. I guess 1out of 3 can be considered BS.

As for DW, I admire what he has done for himself and dirty gold; however, I believe there is a difference between "old colored gold" and old gold that has been "altered" using actual dirt.

IMO, disagreeing with members in an unusual, churlish (thanks for the 50c word @FellintoOblivion), and straight forward manner is not stirring the pot, that's how I learn new things and hopefully change some opinions.

Mark said: "To be honest your posting style and volleys and digs remind me of a poster from Sleepy Hollow that forced me to quit that site. I might be wrong."

Guilty as charged but never heard of SH site.

You are more valuable here than I am - really. REALLY. When you disagreed w/o comment, it hit me wrong that you did what that poor pathetic soul does to pass the day. >

I'll look forward to discussions about coins with you in the future. Best Regards!

Insider2 · June 15, 2017 10:30AM

@BillJones said: "He has expanded the market for Charlotte and Dahlonega gold which is perhaps more often than not "ugly" in some people's eyes. The fact is most any Charlotte or Dahlonega piece which is attractive gets a WOW!!!! from collectors in the know. The average pieces, which you might call "ugly" are the only pieces most of us ever get a chance to buy.

Amen, you are preaching to the Choir. The ugly gold I'm referring to are the environmentally stained, splotchy, purple, reddish, and black specimens that suddenly appeared on the market when "originality" became a big factor in value. Its really funny to me that so many rare coins avoided the coin dip bath. Coloring gold with chemicals is child's play. I'll post some of the formulas and chemicals if necessary.
Then someone here can do a before and after experiment.

PQueue · June 15, 2017 12:08PM

RE:
Coloring gold with chemicals is child's play.
There's at least 1 Forum member that thinks these monstrosities are NT...

Insider2 · June 15, 2017 1:31PM

More than one; but in his defense a few probably are. Unfortunately, the ham-fisted people making them have no sense of artistry. I should like to reveal the drug store product many use but the "dirty gold" dealers and TPGS's already know all about it. Sometimes the nose knows...LOL.

True story, a TPGS instructor told the class that one of the service's customers would send in coins that smelled like a dirty rear end. The graders would toss it around so everyone could take a sniff and howl with laughter.

RYK · June 15, 2017 5:52PM

Sidestepping the dispute going on in this thread, the humble ex-collector that I am. I believe that Heritage has been a force that has commoditized the coin market, whereas DWN has been a counterforce that has effectively decommoditized coins in his niche. It's a constant battle that Heritage fights with many specialists, and one worth fighting for both sides.

This is not to say that Heritage is bad (or represents a negative position), bit their position in the market is as the ultimate market maker. Collectors buy coins for their unique attributes that hopefully defy the pull of being generic or fungible. (Not sure if that gibberish made any sense

MrEureka · June 15, 2017 6:04PM

.

@RYK said:
Sidestepping the dispute going on in this thread, the humble ex-collector that I am. I believe that Heritage has been a force that has commoditized the coin market, whereas DWN has been a counterforce that has effectively decommoditized coins in his niche. It's a constant battle that Heritage fights with many specialists, and one worth fighting for both sides.

This is not to say that Heritage is bad (or represents a negative position), bit their position in the market is as the ultimate market maker. Collectors buy coins for their unique attributes that hopefully defy the pull of being generic or fungible. (Not sure if that gibberish made any sense

Why would an auction firm want their product commoditized? The more unique the product, the more value they can add, and the more they can charge for their services.

Zoins · June 15, 2017 6:07PM

There a few factors that are driving the market to bifurcation including auction records, more information available via the Internet, TPG grading, price guides, the general economy and more. With more information and classification, it becomes more evident that some pieces are rare and others are less so. Of course, issues like gradeflation make it less strait forward in practice.

As a collector, I love more information and wish dealers would have complete sales histories of all their past inventory and sale prices for research.

oldgoldlover · June 15, 2017 6:29PM

Have not read all the above comments but he has to find a seller that is willing to take less than the auction would bring less the buyers premium and then pay about 80% of that amount . He better be a good hunter as the internet is pretty good at providing current values via auctions. I doubt a 20% margin is in the wind going forward on higher dollar coins.I think it will get tougher for dealers and I did read one response that mentions shows letting dealers have first crack at coins. Those are shows I will not attend. I do realize many deals are done in a hotel room prior to the show but they are dealer to dealer.

RYK · June 15, 2017 8:19PM

@MrEureka said:
.

@RYK said:
Sidestepping the dispute going on in this thread, the humble ex-collector that I am. I believe that Heritage has been a force that has commoditized the coin market, whereas DWN has been a counterforce that has effectively decommoditized coins in his niche. It's a constant battle that Heritage fights with many specialists, and one worth fighting for both sides.

This is not to say that Heritage is bad (or represents a negative position), bit their position in the market is as the ultimate market maker. Collectors buy coins for their unique attributes that hopefully defy the pull of being generic or fungible. (Not sure if that gibberish made any sense

Why would an auction firm want their product commoditized? The more unique the product, the more value they can add, and the more they can charge for their services.

I do not believe that the intention of Heritage was to commoditize coins, but when you go to an auction viewing and hold four Stellas in your hand at once, that is what has been accomplished (IMO). It is an unintended consequence of their meteoric success.

ranshdow · June 15, 2017 8:30PM

@MrEureka said:

Why would an auction firm want their product commoditized? The more unique the product, the more value they can add, and the more they can charge for their services.

I get the sense they're trying to make it up on volume.

DW blog--how can a coin's selling price ever be completely disconnected from auction results?

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