My understanding is that PCGS coins usually sell for more than NGC.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
Since this appears to be true. Why is that. I'm looking for actual reasons not feelings or X is a better grading service. So far, I have not submitted directly to either service.
I don't know the reasons so...
- Perhaps PCGS has more dealer members?
- Perhaps PCGS advertises more?
- ?
- ?
- ?
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Comments
There can only be one king of the mountain and at the moment that is PCGS. Moses of course can show up at any time with green stickers.
Insider, I will bet that you have submitted thousands of coins to the services. Who do you think you are bull$hitting? And you already know the answer--PCGS coins are generally much nicer for the grade than NGC coins of the same grade. It has to do with different standards between the two services. And, those NGC coins that are really nice for the grade usually eventually end up in PCGS holders.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Yes, PCGS puts more emphasis on eye appeal/luster. That and marketing.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Coins in PCGS plastic have a higher resell value and PCGS is more widely preferred among collectors at this time
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I'll assume your assertion is true, then if there are two coins of the same denomination, date, mint, and grade, and one is in a PCGS holder and the other in an NGC holder, more people will think that, sight-unseen, the PCGS coin will be nicer than will think the NGC coin will be nicer. So I guess the actual reason is market perception.
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...I can speak on for common date Morgan's MS64-66 under $1k...there are some real gems tucked away inside of the white plastic, just as there are for PCGS. But less eyes seem to be on the white plastic. Usually when I find a good one, I crack it and if it goes up a point then there is enough room to brake even usually. That's what I have been doing lately for fun. I also always get a TrueView to pass on to the next collector/buyer.
I have OCD'ed out on so many of said coins from both company's lately that I feel like I can tell which style graders were there just by the style of plastic/label. I also like how the white plastic tells you which number coin was graded during the submission. I like knowing if the coin I am looking at was within the first 20 or the 129th coin looked at...tell signs of a tired grader. Could work both ways obviously but at least the buyer gets longer than 8 seconds to look at the coin
...it's been a fun way to stay in the hobby for me. I recently found a MS64 Morgan in white plastic and it just got ms66 here at Home
^^^^^ This sums it up very well.
But, but, he is still moving.
Thanks! So far TWO answers that make sense:
One answer that raises a question:
Also, it seems what is going on is everyone wants PCGS (worth more) so that is a perpetual motion machine and they will always be the king.
@BigMoose said: "Insider, I will bet that you have submitted thousands of coins to the services. Who do you think you are bull$hitting? And you already know the answer--PCGS coins are generally much nicer for the grade than NGC coins of the same grade. It has to do with different standards between the two services. And, those NGC coins that are really nice for the grade usually eventually end up in PCGS holders.
You loose. I thought I made it very clear that I have NEVER submitted a coin to either of them and no one has sent a coin in for me. I don't use TPGS EXCEPT ICG to grade coins in my C/F collection. And one time I had Great Collections send some Morgan dollar top 100 variety coins to ANACS to be auctioned. I'll never do that again.
I don't see any difference between the two services as far as grading; but I'm not a major dealer who floods each of them with coins. I only see the graded slabs for sale.
@VanHalen said: "Yes, PCGS puts more emphasis on eye appeal/luster. That and marketing."
Thanks for that answer.
@EXOJUNKIE said: "
Sorry I've not seen them asking the specific question: WHY is that?
@basetsb said: "Coins in PCGS plastic have a higher resell value and PCGS is more widely preferred among collectors at this time."
Thanks for your answer.
@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said: "...I can speak on for common date Morgan's MS64-66 under $1k...there are some real gems tucked away inside of the white plastic, just as there are for PCGS. But less eyes seem to be on the white plastic. Usually when I find a good one, I crack it and if it goes up a point then there is enough room to brake even usually. That's what I have been doing lately for fun. I also always get a TrueView to pass on to the next collector/buyer.
Wow! Wish I had your knowledge. Are you a dealer?
As for @cameonut2011 and @BruceS I enjoyed the humor, now will you take a little time and educate me about my question as others did in a short sentence or two?
PS I believe this is a horse that will never die no matter how much it is beaten!
.
This site has to be a bit helpful to PCGS. It can't hurt having so many members talking PCGS.
@Insider2
...not a dealer...just bored and having fun...knowledge is nice but anyone with eyes and a little side money can easily do what I do...the key is time...not too many people willing to comb through trash for hours at a time looking for a slightly nicer piece of trash...but it's fun for me right now
If you want your answer go out and look at all the PCGS MS65 and NGC MS65 bust halves you can find...and compare them. Then get back to us. For a short and sweet synopsis, just look at the total # of MS coins graded vs. what each service has put in 65 holders. I've also been a primary NGC submitter from 1987-2011, with about 90% of my coins going to NGC....for specific reasons.
Walkers and Saints in high grades well.
OP- your assumption is correct they generally do sell for more. A lot more
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
>
Why repeat what has already been said? The comments about eye appeal, luster, and market grading are spot on. Ditto for marketing. The newer PCGS holders have superior optics. The thicker NGC holders allow less light to pass through than the more recent PCGS holders. This is important, especially with smaller coins.
It's a moot issue for me. I am just buying slabbed NGC or PCGS ASE, AGE, AGB, Pandas mostly MS69 close to melt. Some 70 too if cheap. Keeping lid on vintage till start seeing bids go up. But do prefer PCGS - Coin Facts use PCGS inventory manager too.
For retail I price them basically the same like major advertiser in NN. I do have higher pct PCGS coins but estate buying where I have take it all......An NGC coin sold for cost x 2 earlier in the year so far this biggest GM one.
Yes bring on those PCGS buyers want their retail money if they pay more.....maybe they can break that record. Time to invest is now - don't wait until the bids rising every week.
I have read the debates over the two services since I have been on the boards -18+ years.... What it comes down to is the simple fact that market perception is that PCGS coins have a higher value due to more accurate grading. For those of us that buy the coin, the holder is of little consequence. Cheers, RickO
No, the dead horse is reacting to the beating.
That may be true if you never plan on selling it
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman ...My plan exactly....
Cheers, RickO
It basically comes down to the better coin. And the better coin (for the assigned grade) is usually found in one holder more often the other (do a blind taste test of say a random 20-50 coins). But, that varies drastically by both which type of coin and the grade. For MS64 generic Morgans it might be 55-45. For MS65 capped bust halves I'd say 75-25. It hasn't helped that any CBH worthy of a cross eventually makes it there....whether crossed or cracked out. The 50% increase in value just makes it happen. Though even 10 yrs ago I'd have said the same thing.
Can I think of any Bust, Barber, and Seated type coins or specific dates/mm's in any grade where NGC is more conservative?...or brings a stronger bid/price/demand? No. Are there individual coins that can be exceptions....of course. There may not be a defined grading standard to compare TPG's. In the absence of that we use a comparison of their typical dollar values in the same grade........case closed.
Two more answers are added:
Grading accuracy based on what? PCGS standards in their Photo Grade guide? AFAIK from reading is there are no grading standards in the market.
@ldhair said: "This site has to be a bit helpful to PCGS. It can't hurt having so many members talking PCGS."
Yes, this is a great site. It's become my favorite in spite of the uninformed, misguided or mentally challenged child stalking my posts who really should "Fall into Oblivion."
However, I do see reasoned negative opinion about our host and have read that PCGS has deleted some unfavorable posts which I cannot believe they would do if they were within the rules.
@roadrunner said: If you want your answer go out and look at all the PCGS MS65 and NGC MS65 bust halves you can find...and compare them. Then get back to us. For a short and sweet synopsis, just look at the total # of MS coins graded vs. what each service has put in 65 holders."
Don't quite understand (total pop/MS-65) but I shall look. Seems to me if one service has more '65's, they either are liberal graders or they are receiving better coins to begin with.
For the most striking contrasts of the above, go back and look at 1998 -2002 pop reports before the crack outs and resubmits really went nuclear. It's very obvious. With effectively the same number of submissions of MS CBH's, one service graded 4X as many MS65's, yet somewhat similar numbers of 62 and 63 coins. The coins tended to go where they could fetch the most money. During the 1998-2008 period the liner coins often went to NGC to receive an upgrade that PCGS wasn't as willing to give.
Even in 2006 a generic NGC MS65 CBH only fetched $4800-$5500...CDN was considerably higher. I rarely (or never) found one I felt could cross (ElContador will verify same). The typical MS65 PCGS coin was $7500-$8500 and you couldn't find them. Why? Because a lot of those made their way into NGC MS66 holders where they could bring $10K to $13K (the PCGS 66's were up in the $15K-$30K range). With CAC now in play from 2009, this arbitrage has been unwinding as those NGC 66's revert back to PCGS 65 CAC's. And the NGC 65's fall back to PCGS 64 CAC's. The "goal" of most every stickered NGC 63-66 CBH is to get crossed over to fetch an additional 10-30%....leaving less solid for the grade coins in non-PCGS holders.
Some people think that the PCGS holder is more attractive. That is one factor.
The other is that PCGS is more conservative, but that observation has been enhanced by the fact that many of the best NGC coins are crossed to PCGS. Many not so good NGC graded coins stay their holders, and that makes their product look less attractive.
There are some wonderful, properly graded coins in NGC holders. It's just that you have to hunt for them. When you find them, you can very often buy "the same" or better coin for less.
And for those who like CAC, CAC does review NGC coins.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS
waiting for the day when there is a established grading norm! Like the size of bolts and nuts.
I have asked many collectors (or said in different words: "consumers of the product TPG's produce".) to explain the difference between a MS66 and a MS65 graded coin. you guessed it...nobody was able to clearly describe it. So, why is it so important?
but... this will most likely not happen in my lifetime.
Just imagine, an even playing field for all.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS
Thank you for taking the time for a long post.
All I know is that CBH (I couldn't figure what these initials were at first and almost asked!) are one of the worst graded series on the planet! Laura (I have never met her formally) wrote a while back that they virtually do not exist in Uncirculated condition. Boy was she correct. I guarantee that if you were to give me 100 coins in MS-65 slabs, I might find 20 - 30 that were not cleaned, sliders by my unrealistic, non-commercial, ignorant, personal grading standards. Most dealers can't tell the difference between strike and wear on these coins and many are chemically altered to hide problems. Nevertheless, the market is what it is and I go with the flow.
IMO, the problem with ALL grading is the lose interpretation of the "old" grading standards that lets old (some even XF+) coins in a series like CBH to be graded AU one time and MS the next by using the excuse that the changes are being made as "ex-professional coin dealer TPG's learn more...HA. HA, HA. Give me a break!
Actually, very often there is a easily seen difference. The proof is that many of the knowledgeable "sharks" on this site know the difference and profit from it.
As a starting point (If you are interested) check out the description of those grades with the Morgan dollars in the ANA Grading Guide. The TPGS don't follow this exactly, and there is room for interpretation - what does "few" mean. Nevertheless, it is a basic and helpful start. Then, with study of graded slabs (ore some grading seminars) you should be able to tell most of the time.
@ColonelJessup said: "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS"
As usual, very, very good advice from you.
Lets just look at two examples from the buffalo nickel series
1) ms68 1913 type one buffs are way more valuable in pcgs vs ngc plastic
2) ms68 1938d buffs are also much more valuable in pcgs vs ngc plastic.
always was
always will be!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
OK, as a knowledgeable collector of this series:
You say this is a universal thing rather than my under graded, correctly graded, and over graded findings erience with all TPGS's.
With respect to US coins, I think it's fair to say that NGC coins tend to sell for less than PCGS coins NOT because they grade more loosely than PCGS - in truth, they probably don't - but because the quality of NGC coins in the marketplace tends to be worse than PCGS coins. Crossover activity is probably the biggest reason for that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Just because I think this is a funnier beating of a dead horse.
Now that makes sense. And there should be no way for NGC to turn the tables.
Do you think that over time, the "new" owners of the Graysheet can adjust the price differences closer. Didn't some of the owners of NGC and CAC buy into that price guide?
_
Don't get too excited about knocking off NGC completely. It is to the collectors' best interest not to have a monopoly in the coin grading business. We would be much better off if the Gray Sheet could concentrate on pricing PROPERLY GRADED COINS rather than beating the drum for the benefit of one grading service be it CAC, NGC or PCGS.
@BillJones said: "Don't get too excited about knocking off NGC completely. It is to the collectors' best interest not to have a monopoly in the coin grading business. We would be much better off if the Gray Sheet could concentrate on pricing PROPERLY GRADED COINS rather than beating the drum for the benefit of one grading service be it CAC, NGC or PCGS."
I may have mislead readers. I have written before that competition between the TPGS is good and provides collectors with a second or third opinion. There is a difference between the four major grading services. Only two are favored by most. My purpose for this thread was to find out why. I like to be informed when I discuss the TPGS.
Full disclosure: I don't use either service. I know dealers/collectors who do. I see their slabs and I read posts. Occasionally, I get opinions on coins by NGC finalizers. My only contact w/PCGS was by phone (several times in the past). Once to report a problem in a slab. While I feel both services need to improve customer relations, NGC is better.
That said: IMO, NGC is the #1 grading service. IMO, the ONLY thing (It's a big one...LOL) PCGS has over NGC is the value of their slabs. I guess that makes PCGS #1for most dealers/collectors. Slowly but surly, serious posters are teaching me why this is so. Thanks!
Color me shocked. I seriously give you props for having the courage to come out of the NGC closet on this forum.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
LOL. I have posted my personal opinion all over the Internet many times before. On the NGC site, I say PCGS is the best...LOL, Only kidding.
BTW, I don't fit in any closet - I tend to burn them down. One of my favorite things is to "steal-the-bone" from the "Big Boys" when I feel it is warranted and I can back up my opinion. I always try to tell the truth (as I see it); yet I have an open mind and will quickly change my opinion and apologize for posting nonsense when proven uninformed or wrong.
I like most of the grading services. That includes ANACS, ICG, and even SEGS (Oh Horrors). They have taken much of the worry out of the coin market for new collectors/investors . I recommend anyone who cannot grade use them until they learn how.
I know one thing that is an easily proven FACT: Any competent numismatist can find examples of over graded, under graded, and mostly correctly graded coins from each of the TPGS I mentioned. On occasion, each of them has slabbed counterfeits.
Thanks
I can't argue with that. Humans do and will always be vulnerable to commit error.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
As it has been stated throughout this thread, PCGS may be the best and coins in their holders may sell for the most money but NGC is still the largest grading service.
NGC 37 million plus
PCGS 36 million plus
I would bet that in the US rarer coin market, PCGS has almost twice the market share as NGC.
This is based on coins that show up in auctions priced at more than $500.
Here are the past lots sold on Ebay for US coins sold over $500.
I think you will find the same results if you check Heritage, GreatCollections, etc...
It's even more lopsided as you move up in price.
This makes sense. If PCGS coins sell for more money, put them on Ebay. What should be interesting would be to see how many of these MS-65's sold over "book" for each company. From what I am reading, the result would be the same in PCGS's favor.
They may or may not sell for more money.
I was trying to say that in the longer term the "bigger" money coins usually end up in a PCGS holder vs NGC.
That trend as been happening for years.
I guess "end up" is the clincher. Both services sell very rare, valuable, and desirable coins. Lot's of times they have been upgraded back and forth over the years...LOL. So if one were to look, most of the major rarities are in PCGS holders now, no mater what slab they started in, right?
I would guess that the direction of flow between services has shifted more to a one way flow in the last few years.
Can anyone name a previously graded PCGS registry set being sent to NGC and then auctioned?
I'm not counting a "raw" set that shows up in NGC plastic for the first time.
10000lakes, I agree with your comments 100%. It is where the money is.
There is very little money in so-called common coins. The only coins doing very well in this market are superb quality coins. And there just aren't enough of the high end eye candy coins to go around.
So, what is sustaining this market? Re-grades, cross-overs and CAC stickers.
These have been a godsend to dealers.
If, hypothetically, one TPG were to gradeflate its current coins to the point that its current coins were worth less that another hypothetical TPG's current coins, would the first TPG's OLDER coins lose value as well?