@KellenCoin said:
If you are collecting a coin series seriously, you should be learning enough about them to not need the CAC sticker.
... or a TPG holder. Too many collectors and dealers have lost (or never have gained) the ability to grade and rely too heavily on the TPG's opinion ... unless the TPG grade is lower that what they want it to be.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
OK... I have diligently read all the posts here.... and it is amazing how so many echo the threads of yesteryear when CAC was launched. At this point, CAC has established itself as a market force - this is undeniable. That being said, it is a choice...as are TPG's and your preferred bourbon or scotch. Railing against or cheer leading for your choice is stating a preference - with or without appropriate credentials - much like politics. It makes for good theater, and facts exist for each choice. Personally, I enjoy coins.... raw, slabbed or stickered, and will continue to collect coins I like - with little regard to decorations. Cheers, RickO
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
In my area of interest many coins are hard to justify having graded, much less the additional expense of sending to CAC.(Barber Half's F-AU) Out of the more than one hundred collectors I have sold to I have only had 1 state that he would only buy Barber Half's with CAC stickers. I go gung ho after nice original Barber Half's. I have actually been floored by several coins I purchased from pictures on ebay that were CAC'd and I felt PCGS should have labeled them cleaned! I guess you can say I also do not drink the CAC koolaide!
@KellenCoin said:
If you are collecting a coin series seriously, you should be learning enough about them to not need the CAC sticker.
Good luck with that. I have seen thousands of coins in hand in my series, and yet, I know there are folks that have seen 10 to 100 times more. Each series is full of mine fields. I get the opinion of as many experts as possible and CAC is one darn good opinion to have. Also, buying online is very dangerous because one can't see the surfaces in hand. Since I now have an understanding of what CAC sees as good surfaces vs. bad, seeing that green bean gives me confidence that said coin online meets their standards, and gives me a starting point. I don't want to make a mistake buying online after all. Do you? If not, look for that green bean just to make sure you are not getting a messed with coin that one can't see in online images...... As Bill Jones noted, CAC gets it right most of the time so one more piece of info to apply. Doesn't mean that non beaned coins are lesser coins, but again, how can you tell without seeing in hand first? HST, most of what I buy in hand now unbeaned gets a bean because submitting to them has taught me what good surfaces are.......
Imagine the stigma non sticked NGC coins must go through. First thought that comes to mind is why couldn't that coin get into a PCGS holder & second it couldn't get a sticker. Double whammy and the market speaks to it with prices realized. I think this was the driving force of grab Salzberg Hail Mary. NGC coins are getting their ears boxed in.
mark
Well maybe its because the owner of that NGC holdered coin has never worried about the hype and hence kept his/her pq coin in its original holder he/she bought it in and never worried about a bean, or not, but instead just enjoyed the coin? I have many green beaned NGC coins that I bought without a bean and sent them in, my ratio of success for beans for both TPG's has been about the same........ So I don't see the stigma, I judge each coin for what it is, bean, no bean, NGC, no NGC......
Why? This is a very important topic and needs to be vetted out frequently. Whether some like it or not, CAC is a market mover and a bean or not helps define the value of a coin. Hence, carry on and keeping discussing.
@coinkat said:
Seems we have not had enough of this yet... My thoughts.
CAC provides a valuable service for high end coins that have a significant jump in value. We do not need a mentality that every MS65-67 1881-s Morgan graded by PCGS and NGC in a CAC holder. My view remains that we have lost our common sense on when CAC makes a difference.
Further, I continue to be underwhelmed by the analysis that promotes one TPG over the other in terms of which coin sold for more without a discussion of the coin itself. There is a range within a grade and two coins within the same grade can have a difference that should answer the question why one brought more than the other. Instead, we look solely at stickers and labels in an effort to explain value. As coin collectors, I thought we were better than this.
What further hurts is the inference that a non CAC coin-especially those that are relatively common and affordable-has something wrong with it or a coin that is in an X holder instead of a Y holder. As coin collectors, we should be better than this.
Can we make an effort to restore a little common sense in the hobby and start by looking at the coins and appreciating what is in the holder instead of what is on it?
I see a brighter future for world coins if this type of foolishness continues to takes center stage in the US market.
@Gazes said:
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
@Gazes said:
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
Absolutely.
Not really....JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
@Gazes said:
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
Absolutely.
Not really....JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
That's like saying Babe Ruth was just another baseball player......no better.......no worse. You've said a lot of crazy stuff but this might be your Mona Lisa
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Gazes said:
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
Absolutely.
Not really....JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
That's like saying Babe Ruth was just another baseball player......no better.......no worse. You've said a lot of crazy stuff but this might be your Mona Lisa
mark
Very bad comparison ....... you guys put way too importance on his opinion....way too much!
@Gazes said:
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
Absolutely.
Not really....JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
That's like saying Babe Ruth was just another baseball player......no better.......no worse. You've said a lot of crazy stuff but this might be your Mona Lisa
mark
Very bad comparison ....... you guys put way too importance on his opinion....way too much!
Babe Ruth was one of the greatest hitters in baseball. John Albanese is one of the top respected graders in our industry. Probably number 1. So the comparison is certainly closer then........"JA is just another person......no better......no worse". That's just ignorance
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@MrEureka said:
It seems to me that anyone who buys into the concept of third-party grading should buy into the concept of fourth-party grading for the same reasons.
Similarly, anyone who rejects fourth-party grading should reject third-party grading for the same reasons.
Exactly.
don't cars and fine wine receive multiple honors/awards/judgements?
It's unfortunate that some many people bow down to Albanese like he is a god. How did he get this reputation? People like Q. David Bowers deserve the accolades because he has written and published many great books that have become the backbone of this hobby. Ditto for Roger Burdette, Eric P. Newman and yes, even the late Walter Breen, despite his many personal faults.
What has Albanese published? At a minimum there should be a grading book with his name on it if he is the foremost grader who outranks everyone else. If he is the greatest grader of all time, his product should be virtually infallible. Yet those of us who are not mesmerized know that it is not.
I have never met John Albanese, but I've spoken to him a number of times on the phone. He seems to be a nice down to earth guy who might be a bit embarrassed by all of this hero worship. I know I would be. A swell head can be a very dangerous thing to your professional competence. Everybody screws up, and giving so much power to one man is not healthy for the coin market and the hobby in general.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Why? This is a very important topic and needs to be vetted out frequently. Whether some like it or not, CAC is a market mover and a bean or not helps define the value of a coin. Hence, carry on and keeping discussing.
Best, SH
i think it's because there are no new compelling arguments, either pro or con.
Do I respect JA's opinion?
Yes, absolutely. He is one of the best graders in the world, if not THE best.
Do I think that he offers a valuable service?
Yes, he does and it's very nice to have it available, if I need it, or am unsure about a certain coin. You can learn a lot from his opinion.
Does a coin have to have a sticker before I will purchase it?
In most cases 'no'. If I like the coin, then I'll buy it and, in MOST cases (not all), I know what I'm looking at. But, if it has a bean, then it's an added bonus.
Will I have my coins stickered, if/when I ever sell?
If CAC is still viable, at that time, and the market prices reflect it, then I think you'd be foolish not to,
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
Why? This is a very important topic and needs to be vetted out frequently. Whether some like it or not, CAC is a market mover and a bean or not helps define the value of a coin. Hence, carry on and keeping discussing.
Best, SH
i think it's because there are no new compelling arguments, either pro or con.
True,
But there may be new people coming into numismatics who have not seen the debate before and they will benefit from seeing it.
@topstuf said:
I'll go back to my post of months or more back.
What happens with stickers post JA?
Not being morbid. I'm really curious.
If the company ceased to exist post JA I would think the premiums would increase. Who knows maybe another company could enter the market. Now, later or after. Maybe JA dissolves CAC in a few years on his own terms. Again I would think that would increase the premiums. JMHO
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones said:
It's unfortunate that some many people bow down to Albanese like he is a god. How did he get this reputation? People like Q. David Bowers deserve the accolades because he has written and published many great books that have become the backbone of this hobby. Ditto for Roger Burdette, Eric P. Newman and yes, even the late Walter Breen, despite his many personal faults.
What has Albanese published? At a minimum there should be a grading book with his name on it if he is the foremost grader who outranks everyone else. If he is the greatest grader of all time, his product should be virtually infallible. Yet those of us who are not mesmerized know that it is not.
I have never met John Albanese, but I've spoken to him a number of times on the phone. He seems to be a nice down to earth guy who might be a bit embarrassed by all of this hero worship. I know I would be. A swell head to be a very dangerous thing to your professional competence. Everybody screws up, and giving so much power to one man is not healthy for the coin market and the hobby in general.
@Boosibri said:
I would say that Albanese has done more than people realize....
Co-founder of PCGS, founder of NGC, founder of CAC, founder of the non-profit Numismatic Consumer Alliance which is a collector watchdog.
Has he been given power or has he been the key influencer in creating the industry model?
Agree.
John is the authority of the TPG era. I think anyone who have ever actually meet or worked with him would agree. He is a guy experts seek advise from or run things by. I've seen it with my own eyes. The fella is a grading savant. I can't imagine anybody who has seen more coins in and out of holders then John. He also has an exhaustive knowledge of coin doctoring detection.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My question for third party grading and stickering is this: Are all submissions truly arm's length transactions? I would hope that certain large or influential customers do not get to influence the grading or stickering of coins because they have a closer relationship with the 3rd or 4th party. I would also hope that the 3rd or 4th party grades or stickers are in complete anonymity to ensure the process is equitable for all customers.
If the answer to this question is that the process is 100% equitable and anonymous, I would say the services provide an invaluable resource for collectors and investors. This is not to say that mistakes can't happen in the grade etc rather that the process is designed in a way so that all players are on an equal playing field. Favoritism or influence undermines the process and make the industry skeptical.
I will admit, I always saw a need for 3rd party grading since it started. When CAC came out, I was very skeptical and did not understand the purpose of this service. I still remember the first time I saw an add for it in a periodical. After reading about it and talking with people over the years, I now think this service adds value and makes sense especially for higher priced coins.
I buy a lot of raw bust coins. I sold one at a big show recently. It was amazing walking it around the floor and showing it to all the dealers including the experts. I heard so many different opinions it was truly shocking. Third party grading and CAC eliminate a lot of the opinions because they are giving the coin the seal of approval and another seal that it is premium for the grade. As a seller, it makes it much less likely that you will be taken advantage of and also adds to the liquidity and value of the coin in my personal experience. If I walk a bust coin around the bourse in a PCGS holder with a green CAC sticker, it is much easier to sell at a reasonable price from my experience than the same coin raw. I don't have to spend all day haggling over each little flaw, the grade, the surface, the rims, the focal points, the color, etc...
@topstuf said:
I'll go back to my post of months or more back.
What happens with stickers post JA?
Not being morbid. I'm really curious.
If the company ceased to exist post JA I would think the premiums would increase. Who knows maybe another company could enter the market. Now, later or after. Maybe JA dissolves CAC in a few years on his own terms. Again I would think that would increase the premiums. JMHO
mark
I have thought about this in the past. If they tried to say it's business as usual, someone else is stepping in, that would be a disaster for CAC coins.
If the method of stickering changes or the company dissolves, the original stickered coins will become legend!
@KellenCoin said:
If you are collecting a coin series seriously, you should be learning enough about them to not need the CAC sticker.
... or a TPG holder. Too many collectors and dealers have lost (or never have gained) the ability to grade and rely too heavily on the TPG's opinion ... unless the TPG grade is lower that what they want it to be.
I disagree. TPG holders are helpful to verify the authenticity and give some general info on a coin.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
@tradedollarnut said:
Why would I want a person who is good at writing books to check the grade of my coins?
Exactly.
Using QDB as the example.....
I've met QDB, at the PCGS FUN Luncheon back in 2005 (sat at same table as him and HRH). Great stories and history. Really nice guy.
For JA, I've never met him in person, but have talked to him on the phone. Some great stories and he has seen many of my coins and we have talked about coins' surfaces and grades.
When I want to sit down and read, I would go the QDB route.
When I want to sit down and ENJOY MY COINS, I will go my own route or the JA route.
Someone researching/writing a book DOES NOTHING FOR ME ENJOYING MY COINS. Some love the history. Good for them. Some love the background. Good for them.
Some of us just enjoy a nicely preserved coin and the look to it. I'll take JA over the list BJ gave, for this purpose, all day long.
Publishing a book is not the end-all. Many folks with extreme knowledge may not take the time for a book.
@KellenCoin said:
If you are collecting a coin series seriously, you should be learning enough about them to not need the CAC sticker.
Good luck with that. I have seen thousands of coins in hand in my series, and yet, I know there are folks that have seen 10 to 100 times more. Each series is full of mine fields. I get the opinion of as many experts as possible and CAC is one darn good opinion to have. Also, buying online is very dangerous because one can't see the surfaces in hand. Since I now have an understanding of what CAC sees as good surfaces vs. bad, seeing that green bean gives me confidence that said coin online meets their standards, and gives me a starting point. I don't want to make a mistake buying online after all. Do you? If not, look for that green bean just to make sure you are not getting a messed with coin that one can't see in online images...... As Bill Jones noted, CAC gets it right most of the time so one more piece of info to apply. Doesn't mean that non beaned coins are lesser coins, but again, how can you tell without seeing in hand first? HST, most of what I buy in hand now unbeaned gets a bean because submitting to them has taught me what good surfaces are.......
Best, SH
I agree. I do not think that CAC is bad-rather, it is very helpful! Whenever I see the bean, I usually have more confidence in the coin (but of course I will evaluate it myself). I simply meant to say that you should have your own opinions based on your own experience.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Yep, those are exactly the type of coins CAC stickers.
You are learning. Never too late
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As someone else mentioned J.A. is a world class grader and I don't think Q.D.B. can compare his grading skills to J.A.'s for the simple fact that J.A. started 3 grading companies and continues to grade daily with his last venture.
Nailed it. Well written. Thank you. Case closed.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I see the turmoil (at least as far as my quandary) that this is being treated as a separate grade when, in reality, it is an opinion ON an opinion.
If it were another grade service and developed a reputation as THE grading service, I wouldn't be as skeptical as I am when it's someone saying what someone ELSE said is either true or not true.
This is MY stickler (green not gold ) and my reason for wondering about the future.
If there ensues a PREMIUM for the reason that there is no one else to be the SAME "looker" as it started, then why not just ask a collector we all respect to do the same and autograph the coins?
I guess REDFIELD dollars now have a cachet that they didn't have a while back.
The cost is reasonable but the insurance to ship is not.
Then there are the RUMORS..... ????????.... that certain VOLUME submitters have a better "CHANCE."
Which makes sense to me. Maybe not you, but to me it does. I was in BUSINESS.
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Those coins look like a perfect example. I agree that both photos look like nice coins, however the cac coin you can see from the picture that the coin is dripping luster and original AU while the $10 that is not cac is PQ (looks 53+-55) looking but looks to me hazed over and was most probably cleaned and retoned
I would like the opportunity to purchase any early (1798-1813) gold that has this "hazed over, cleaned and retoned" look... please provide pics and asking price.
@crazyhounddog said:
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Just follow the flock Joe......they know best.
I don't follow any flock. But!! I sure would like to see this in action. Why bother having pcgs grade your coin at all? Why not just have CAC grade it? Way over rated is my opinion and everyone has one bud. This just happens to be mine.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Just follow the flock Joe......they know best.
Just because YOU don't respect the two graders putting the CAC sticker on a coin doesn't mean the market doesn't respect them. Obviously, it does. Therefore your lack of respect says more about you than you think.
@crazyhounddog said:
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Just follow the flock Joe......they know best.
I don't follow any flock. But!! I sure would like to see this in action. Why bother having pcgs grade your coin at all? Why not just have CAC grade it? Way over rated is my opinion and everyone has one bud. This just happens to be mine.
I hear ya Joe....but they don't. If that first sheep goes over the cliff......the whole herd is gone!
@crazyhounddog said:
What is this? A pile on because Dimeman has his own opinion? Give me a break. This would be a VERY boring world if we all think the same.
No, it's a pile on because he's disparaging those who DO respect the bean
@crazyhounddog said:
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Just follow the flock Joe......they know best.
Just because YOU don't respect the two graders putting the CAC sticker on a coin doesn't mean the market doesn't respect them. Obviously, it does. Therefore your lack of respect says more about you than you think.
So what does this say about me Bruce....that maybe I don't need CAC to tell me if PCGS graded the coin correctly.
Maybe someone should start a new company to grade CAC...then we have an opinion of an opinion of an opinion!
@crazyhounddog said:
What is this? A pile on because Dimeman has his own opinion? Give me a break. This would be a VERY boring world if we all think the same.
No, it's a pile on because he's disparaging those who DO respect the bean
I have never "disparaged" anyone here for using CAC. I just don't see the need. I have that right.
It's ok to say you don't care if your coins are doctored or low end in a way that you don't recognize - to each their own. It's not ok to disparage great graders because you choose that path.
Sorry Joe. I love you and Dimeman is entitled to his opinion but he is off the rails. That is my opinion and Im just exercising it. He has no trouble just shooting from the hip and hoping something sticks to the wall. Time to enjoy some football which are ironically shaped like CAC stickers.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
... or a TPG holder. Too many collectors and dealers have lost (or never have gained) the ability to grade and rely too heavily on the TPG's opinion ... unless the TPG grade is lower that what they want it to be.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
"Tools" don't create "stigma."
Propaganda creates stigma.
OK... I have diligently read all the posts here.... and it is amazing how so many echo the threads of yesteryear when CAC was launched. At this point, CAC has established itself as a market force - this is undeniable. That being said, it is a choice...as are TPG's and your preferred bourbon or scotch. Railing against or cheer leading for your choice is stating a preference - with or without appropriate credentials - much like politics. It makes for good theater, and facts exist for each choice. Personally, I enjoy coins.... raw, slabbed or stickered, and will continue to collect coins I like - with little regard to decorations. Cheers, RickO
Well what kinda deal is THAT?
Another thought. Most people on the forum would not buy a coin at auction without viewing it personally or having someone they trust view it. Isn't CAC (especially with gold coins) a form of having someone they trust to view a coin ?
In my area of interest many coins are hard to justify having graded, much less the additional expense of sending to CAC.(Barber Half's F-AU) Out of the more than one hundred collectors I have sold to I have only had 1 state that he would only buy Barber Half's with CAC stickers. I go gung ho after nice original Barber Half's. I have actually been floored by several coins I purchased from pictures on ebay that were CAC'd and I felt PCGS should have labeled them cleaned! I guess you can say I also do not drink the CAC koolaide!
Good luck with that. I have seen thousands of coins in hand in my series, and yet, I know there are folks that have seen 10 to 100 times more. Each series is full of mine fields. I get the opinion of as many experts as possible and CAC is one darn good opinion to have. Also, buying online is very dangerous because one can't see the surfaces in hand. Since I now have an understanding of what CAC sees as good surfaces vs. bad, seeing that green bean gives me confidence that said coin online meets their standards, and gives me a starting point. I don't want to make a mistake buying online after all. Do you? If not, look for that green bean just to make sure you are not getting a messed with coin that one can't see in online images...... As Bill Jones noted, CAC gets it right most of the time so one more piece of info to apply. Doesn't mean that non beaned coins are lesser coins, but again, how can you tell without seeing in hand first? HST, most of what I buy in hand now unbeaned gets a bean because submitting to them has taught me what good surfaces are.......
Best, SH
Well maybe its because the owner of that NGC holdered coin has never worried about the hype and hence kept his/her pq coin in its original holder he/she bought it in and never worried about a bean, or not, but instead just enjoyed the coin? I have many green beaned NGC coins that I bought without a bean and sent them in, my ratio of success for beans for both TPG's has been about the same........ So I don't see the stigma, I judge each coin for what it is, bean, no bean, NGC, no NGC......
Best, SH
Why? This is a very important topic and needs to be vetted out frequently. Whether some like it or not, CAC is a market mover and a bean or not helps define the value of a coin. Hence, carry on and keeping discussing.
Best, SH
This guy nailed it!
Absolutely.
Not really....JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
That's like saying Babe Ruth was just another baseball player......no better.......no worse. You've said a lot of crazy stuff but this might be your Mona Lisa
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Very bad comparison ....... you guys put way too importance on his opinion....way too much!
Babe Ruth was one of the greatest hitters in baseball. John Albanese is one of the top respected graders in our industry. Probably number 1. So the comparison is certainly closer then........"JA is just another person......no better......no worse". That's just ignorance
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
don't cars and fine wine receive multiple honors/awards/judgements?
I'll go back to my post of months or more back.
What happens with stickers post JA?
Not being morbid. I'm really curious.
It's unfortunate that some many people bow down to Albanese like he is a god. How did he get this reputation? People like Q. David Bowers deserve the accolades because he has written and published many great books that have become the backbone of this hobby. Ditto for Roger Burdette, Eric P. Newman and yes, even the late Walter Breen, despite his many personal faults.
What has Albanese published? At a minimum there should be a grading book with his name on it if he is the foremost grader who outranks everyone else. If he is the greatest grader of all time, his product should be virtually infallible. Yet those of us who are not mesmerized know that it is not.
I have never met John Albanese, but I've spoken to him a number of times on the phone. He seems to be a nice down to earth guy who might be a bit embarrassed by all of this hero worship. I know I would be. A swell head can be a very dangerous thing to your professional competence. Everybody screws up, and giving so much power to one man is not healthy for the coin market and the hobby in general.
Could it be because JA can grade and Q cannot? Dunno...
I would say that Albanese has done more than people realize....
Co-founder of PCGS, founder of NGC, founder of CAC, founder of the non-profit Numismatic Consumer Alliance which is a collector watchdog.
Has he been given power or has he been the key influencer in creating the industry model?
Latin American Collection
i think it's because there are no new compelling arguments, either pro or con.
Do I respect JA's opinion?
Yes, absolutely. He is one of the best graders in the world, if not THE best.
Do I think that he offers a valuable service?
Yes, he does and it's very nice to have it available, if I need it, or am unsure about a certain coin. You can learn a lot from his opinion.
Does a coin have to have a sticker before I will purchase it?
In most cases 'no'. If I like the coin, then I'll buy it and, in MOST cases (not all), I know what I'm looking at. But, if it has a bean, then it's an added bonus.
Will I have my coins stickered, if/when I ever sell?
If CAC is still viable, at that time, and the market prices reflect it, then I think you'd be foolish not to,
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
True,
But there may be new people coming into numismatics who have not seen the debate before and they will benefit from seeing it.
Best, SH
If the company ceased to exist post JA I would think the premiums would increase. Who knows maybe another company could enter the market. Now, later or after. Maybe JA dissolves CAC in a few years on his own terms. Again I would think that would increase the premiums. JMHO
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
THIS!!!!
Agree.
John is the authority of the TPG era. I think anyone who have ever actually meet or worked with him would agree. He is a guy experts seek advise from or run things by. I've seen it with my own eyes. The fella is a grading savant. I can't imagine anybody who has seen more coins in and out of holders then John. He also has an exhaustive knowledge of coin doctoring detection.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My question for third party grading and stickering is this: Are all submissions truly arm's length transactions? I would hope that certain large or influential customers do not get to influence the grading or stickering of coins because they have a closer relationship with the 3rd or 4th party. I would also hope that the 3rd or 4th party grades or stickers are in complete anonymity to ensure the process is equitable for all customers.
If the answer to this question is that the process is 100% equitable and anonymous, I would say the services provide an invaluable resource for collectors and investors. This is not to say that mistakes can't happen in the grade etc rather that the process is designed in a way so that all players are on an equal playing field. Favoritism or influence undermines the process and make the industry skeptical.
I will admit, I always saw a need for 3rd party grading since it started. When CAC came out, I was very skeptical and did not understand the purpose of this service. I still remember the first time I saw an add for it in a periodical. After reading about it and talking with people over the years, I now think this service adds value and makes sense especially for higher priced coins.
I buy a lot of raw bust coins. I sold one at a big show recently. It was amazing walking it around the floor and showing it to all the dealers including the experts. I heard so many different opinions it was truly shocking. Third party grading and CAC eliminate a lot of the opinions because they are giving the coin the seal of approval and another seal that it is premium for the grade. As a seller, it makes it much less likely that you will be taken advantage of and also adds to the liquidity and value of the coin in my personal experience. If I walk a bust coin around the bourse in a PCGS holder with a green CAC sticker, it is much easier to sell at a reasonable price from my experience than the same coin raw. I don't have to spend all day haggling over each little flaw, the grade, the surface, the rims, the focal points, the color, etc...
Why would I want a person who is good at writing books to check the grade of my coins?
I have thought about this in the past. If they tried to say it's business as usual, someone else is stepping in, that would be a disaster for CAC coins.
If the method of stickering changes or the company dissolves, the original stickered coins will become legend!
Long live John!
I disagree. TPG holders are helpful to verify the authenticity and give some general info on a coin.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
ba-a-a-a-a........ba-a-a-a-a........ba-a-a-a-a.......
Exactly.
Using QDB as the example.....
I've met QDB, at the PCGS FUN Luncheon back in 2005 (sat at same table as him and HRH). Great stories and history. Really nice guy.
For JA, I've never met him in person, but have talked to him on the phone. Some great stories and he has seen many of my coins and we have talked about coins' surfaces and grades.
When I want to sit down and read, I would go the QDB route.
When I want to sit down and ENJOY MY COINS, I will go my own route or the JA route.
Someone researching/writing a book DOES NOTHING FOR ME ENJOYING MY COINS. Some love the history. Good for them. Some love the background. Good for them.
Some of us just enjoy a nicely preserved coin and the look to it. I'll take JA over the list BJ gave, for this purpose, all day long.
Publishing a book is not the end-all. Many folks with extreme knowledge may not take the time for a book.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I agree. I do not think that CAC is bad-rather, it is very helpful! Whenever I see the bean, I usually have more confidence in the coin (but of course I will evaluate it myself). I simply meant to say that you should have your own opinions based on your own experience.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Yep, those are exactly the type of coins CAC stickers.
You are learning. Never too late
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Nailed it. Well written. Thank you. Case closed.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I see the turmoil (at least as far as my quandary) that this is being treated as a separate grade when, in reality, it is an opinion ON an opinion.
If it were another grade service and developed a reputation as THE grading service, I wouldn't be as skeptical as I am when it's someone saying what someone ELSE said is either true or not true.
This is MY stickler (green not gold
) and my reason for wondering about the future.
If there ensues a PREMIUM for the reason that there is no one else to be the SAME "looker" as it started, then why not just ask a collector we all respect to do the same and autograph the coins?
I guess REDFIELD dollars now have a cachet that they didn't have a while back.
The cost is reasonable but the insurance to ship is not.
Then there are the RUMORS..... ????????.... that certain VOLUME submitters have a better "CHANCE."
Which makes sense to me. Maybe not you, but to me it does. I was in BUSINESS.
Okay......quick now..... WHAT"S SETTLED ???
It's appears to some that the graders at CAC are much better than pcgs. So who are these graders that grade the grades? I never here anyone talk about these superior graders and how did they get so damn good?
Just follow the flock Joe......they know best.
Those coins look like a perfect example. I agree that both photos look like nice coins, however the cac coin you can see from the picture that the coin is dripping luster and original AU while the $10 that is not cac is PQ (looks 53+-55) looking but looks to me hazed over and was most probably cleaned and retoned
I would like the opportunity to purchase any early (1798-1813) gold that has this "hazed over, cleaned and retoned" look... please provide pics and asking price.
'dude
I don't follow any flock. But!! I sure would like to see this in action. Why bother having pcgs grade your coin at all? Why not just have CAC grade it? Way over rated is my opinion and everyone has one bud. This just happens to be mine.
Just because YOU don't respect the two graders putting the CAC sticker on a coin doesn't mean the market doesn't respect them. Obviously, it does. Therefore your lack of respect says more about you than you think.
I hear ya Joe....but they don't. If that first sheep goes over the cliff......the whole herd is gone!
What is this? A pile on because Dimeman has his own opinion? Give me a break. This would be a VERY boring world if we all think the same.
No, it's a pile on because he's disparaging those who DO respect the bean
So what does this say about me Bruce....that maybe I don't need CAC to tell me if PCGS graded the coin correctly.
Maybe someone should start a new company to grade CAC...then we have an opinion of an opinion of an opinion!
I have never "disparaged" anyone here for using CAC. I just don't see the need. I have that right.
It's ok to say you don't care if your coins are doctored or low end in a way that you don't recognize - to each their own. It's not ok to disparage great graders because you choose that path.
Sorry Joe. I love you and Dimeman is entitled to his opinion but he is off the rails. That is my opinion and Im just exercising it. He has no trouble just shooting from the hip and hoping something sticks to the wall. Time to enjoy some football which are ironically shaped like CAC stickers.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......