The bean is here to stay. Come on now, lets all get along. We all share the same hobby and that should be good enough for us all to respect one another. If it's just your opinion I can live with it. After all that's what makes the world turn. I just don't like to see this kind of pile on. I like dimeman and most all on this forum. I think we should all try to treat each other with a little more respect is all. That goes both ways. We should all respect each others opinion and keep it peaceful.
Carry on
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
What is this? A pile on because Dimeman has his own opinion? Give me a break. This would be a VERY boring world if we all think the same.
No, it's a pile on because he's disparaging those who DO respect the bean
I have never "disparaged" anyone here for using CAC. I just don't see the need. I have that right.
@tradedollarnut said:
It's ok to say you don't care if your coins are doctored or low end in a way that you don't recognize - to each their own. It's not ok to disparage great graders because you choose that path.
@Justacommeman said:
Sorry Joe. I love you and Dimeman is entitled to his opinion but he is off the rails. That is my opinion and Im just exercising it. He has no trouble just shooting from the hip and hoping something sticks to the wall. Time to enjoy some football which are ironically shaped like CAC stickers.
Just thought I would try and throw some water on this issue. It is without question a touchy subject to say the least. Yes it's time for football that you have so eloquently pointed out that the CAC sticker is the shape of a football Now that's funny .
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@tradedollarnut said:
It's ok to say you don't care if your coins are doctored or low end in a way that you don't recognize - to each their own. It's not ok to disparage great graders because you choose that path.
This is what PCGS is for.
Very sheeplike.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Sorry Joe. I love you and Dimeman is entitled to his opinion but he is off the rails. That is my opinion and Im just exercising it. He has no trouble just shooting from the hip and hoping something sticks to the wall. Time to enjoy some football which are ironically shaped like CAC stickers.
Just thought I would try and throw some water on this issue. It is without question a touchy subject to say the least. Yes it's time for football that you have so eloquently pointed out that the CAC sticker is the shape of a football Now that's funny .
I know Joe. "A"for effort.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Dimeman: ... JA is just another person....no better....no worse.
JustAcommeMan: That's like saying Babe Ruth was just another baseball player......no better.......no worse.
In relation to coin grading, the concept of batting averages is a better analogy than home run hitting. Nonetheless, I respect the home-run analogy, too. If an expert grader seems certain that a coin grades 64 while most other relevant experts grade it as 65 or higher, such an instance of under-grading is sort of like hitting a ball well enough to get a base hit, but not placing it in the outfield such that extra bases are viable.
CAC evaluates more than 400 coins every business day! Experts at CAC are very consistent. No service can be perfectly consistent. As Roadrunners says, if experts typically spend just seconds on a coin, then they will all strike out at times.
I have publicly referred to JA as the Ted Williams of coin grading, and I stand by this declaration. Because Ted Williams had trouble with some pitchers, it would not make sense to doubt his skills. Someone could put together a list of the instances in which Ted Williams struck out and then conclude Ted Williams was not a good baseball player.
I disagree with CAC on some coins, too. But, I agree with the certified grades of more than two-thirds of the coins in stickered holders, which I have seen. Most experts who I know do as well. There is wide scale agreement that CAC provides a valuable and very worthwhile service. I never said that everyone should buy only CAC approved coins or only PCGS certified coins; there are many variables relating to coins and collecting objectives.
Yes, JA has the highest batting average. Even so, when someone is considering spending more than $25k on a coin, it makes sense to obtain additional opinions, including an analysis of the reasons for a specific numerical grade rather than just being told that the assigned numerical grade is okay or not. Like playing baseball, grading coins is far more difficult than most observers or collectors realize. It would be counter-productive, however, to take the baseball analogy too far. In some ways, grading coins is more like being a detective than playing a physical sport.
When it comes to gold coins, it is indisputable that JA is often able to spot instances of doctoring that many other experts miss. I am astonished that there are knowledgeable, advanced collectors who are challenging this point. Please read my articles relating to coin doctoring and originality.
It is also true, though, that there are some never-doctored gold coins that I grade as 65, which JA will only grade as 64. IMO, these are often good values for collectors who like them. Once in a while, though very rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored.
Again, by mentioning the PCGS lawsuit in 2010, I am NOT implying here that the defendants engaged in wrongdoing of any kind. One or all of them may not have broken the law. Furthermore, alleged wrongdoing was never proved in a court of law. An immediate point is that PCGS graders, and all other relevant graders, are sometimes deceived by coin doctors, and that CAC experts are very skilled at identifying doctored coins.
Just let it go. Some like CAC and others feel no need for it. Some of my coins are CAC'ed and I gotta say they are lovely. But honestly I feel that pcgs does a great job grading coins. I wish all of my collection was in pcgs slabs because I feel the are the best show in town. It's either I agree with the grade assigned or I don't. But honestly I purchase coins that "I" find attractive. The main thing that numerically graded coins give me is the extra insurance that this coin has not been cleaned or mishandled. As far as the grade itself? Its not as important to me as the eye appeal. If the eye appeal is over the top then generally it will be assigned a high grade. Of course I don't want a coin that's all beat up with lifeless surfaces but I can see that for myself. All told, the way I collect, I don't have a need to have the grade graded. However I do understand that it makes some folks more comfortable buying high dollar coins. It appears to be VERY important for some collectors and a guy has got to respect that.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I can live with JA being the Ted Williams of grading. I used Babe Ruth as to illustrate stature rather then the HR angle.
Carry on On
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. If JA were to leave scene, what are you going to do? Start a religion and build temples all around the U.S. to keep the faith? Will it be something like L. Ron Hubbard and Church of Scientology?
Some of you have said that the demise of CAC would drive up the price of CAC'd coins because there would be no more. Are you serious?
If you are, this really is cult. It's based around the belief that only one man is qualified to pass judgment on a graded coin, despite the fact that he doesn't even grade coins. Only one man can determine if a coin has been doctored. That's just ludicrous. There are no irreplaceable human beings. There is no one person on earth who has God given powers that beyond all other human beings. He might have secret police and army that stands ready to kill off his opponents, but there are no human beings who that superior and unique to ALL OTHER human beings because of their innate qualities.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
It is about the surfaces, severity of cleaning, and doctoring, this is where CAC can be really helpful. Alot of the coins they don't pass have these kinds of issues, it is not all about wear, most of us can grade the wear but instead the quality of the surfaces takes alot more experience to evaluate........ Ask yourself, do you have JAs decades of experience in this? If not, then it is likely that you are missing things. Whether one cares about this or not is another issue. I care, which is why I want CAC's opinion.
Best, SH
PS - this is a general 'you' I am talking about, not the post above this one by Bill Jones. Bill knows surfaces, that is for sure.......
Bill your and Dimeman's analogies are out of this world. Wow. Eye roll
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
_It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. _
I don't understand this statement. I'm using his opinion as one factor in my decision to purchase or pass on a coin - it's not like I'm handing him my money and expecting him to give it back to me one day and if he dies then poof it's gone
@BillJones said:
It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. If JA were to leave scene, what are you going to do? Start a religion and build temples all around the U.S. to keep the faith? Will it be something like L. Ron Hubbard and Church of Scientology?
Some of you have said that the demise of CAC would drive up the price of CAC'd coins because there would be no more. Are you serious?
If you are, this really is cult. It's based around the belief that only one man is qualified to pass judgment on a graded coin, despite the fact that he doesn't even grade coins. Only one man can determine if a coin has been doctored. That's just ludicrous. There are no irreplaceable human beings. There is no one person on earth who has God given powers that beyond all other human beings. He might have secret police and army that stands ready to kill off his opponents, but there are no human beings who that superior and unique to ALL OTHER human beings because of their innate qualities.
This is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Why is it that I get jumped on???!!! I'm just glad that someone of Bill's stature in this hobby comes out and says it like it is!
Time to watch the Dirty Birds put it on the Pat's.
@BillJones said:
It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. If JA were to leave scene, what are you going to do? Start a religion and build temples all around the U.S. to keep the faith? Will it be something like L. Ron Hubbard and Church of Scientology?
Some of you have said that the demise of CAC would drive up the price of CAC'd coins because there would be no more. Are you serious?
If you are, this really is cult. It's based around the belief that only one man is qualified to pass judgment on a graded coin, despite the fact that he doesn't even grade coins. Only one man can determine if a coin has been doctored. That's just ludicrous. There are no irreplaceable human beings. There is no one person on earth who has God given powers that beyond all other human beings. He might have secret police and army that stands ready to kill off his opponents, but there are no human beings who that superior and unique to ALL OTHER human beings because of their innate qualities.
>
This is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Why is it that I get jumped on???!!! I'm just glad that someone of Bill's stature in this hobby comes out and says it like it is!
Time to watch the Dirty Birds put it on the Pat's.
In your opinion. I think your wrong. Bill too.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@hchcoin said:
As a seller, it makes it much less likely that you will be taken advantage of and also adds to the liquidity and value of the coin in my personal experience. If I walk a bust coin around the bourse in a PCGS holder with a green CAC sticker, it is much easier to sell at a reasonable price from my experience than the same coin raw. I don't have to spend all day haggling over each little flaw, the grade, the surface, the rims, the focal points, the color, etc...
THis is it exactly, from my point of view.
As someone who buys Coins I Like at what I consider a Fair Price, cracks them out, and enjoys them raw for 10 or 20 or 30 years, and never sells (yet), I can afford to mostly ignore PCGS and CAC for now. If the coins come with them at a Fair Price, so be it, but if not, that's fine too, usually I find better value with what I want in a rare "problem" coin than a "choice" common coin anyway.
BUT when the time comes to sell, OF COURSE I'll get my coins PCGSed and CACed and Well Photographed (and whatever else "you do" when that time comes) before I sell them. Why would I intentionally make things harder on myself and leave money on the table?
It makes perfect sense to me that folks with high turnover worship the services, and those with low turnover say "whatever!"
While it is encouraging to exchange thoughts on subjects- even those in controversy- it is unfortunate that this thread, like others on the subject, seem to miss what is important. Oh well...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
BillJones: If JA were to leave scene, what are you going to do? Start a religion and build temples all around the U.S. to keep the faith? Will it be something like L. Ron Hubbard and Church of Scientology?
I wish Mr. Jones would read my articles or at least my posts to this thread. No one is saying that JA is infallible. I said that, "Once in a while, though very rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored." So, there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver in far more instances than gold. The point is that JA has the highest batting average. It is indisputable that CAC stickers, on average, add value to coins.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the Red Sox never won the World Series when Ted Williams was the team's star.
BillJones: It's based around the belief that only one man is qualified to pass judgment on a graded coin, .... Only one man can determine if a coin has been doctored. That's just ludicrous. There are no irreplaceable human beings.
Mr. Jones is making a valid point; there are some people who take the stickers too seriously. If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. By all means, collectors should consult experts and seek additional analyses of coins. CAC is not the answer to all the problems in the coin business. Nonetheless, JA is the leading expert in U.S. gold coins; there is no doubt that this is so.
JustAcommeMan: John is the authority of the TPG era. ... He is a guy experts seek advice from or run things by. ... The fella is a grading savant. I can't imagine anybody who has seen more coins in and out of holders then John. He also has an exhaustive knowledge of coin doctoring detection. I agree.
BillJones: It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. ...
This is not a fair statment. Buying CAC stckered coins involves less risk ON AVERAGE, not always, than relevant non-CAC coins.
PCGS will not be around forever either. There will be new grading services, sooner or later.
Afford: I don't want to be ripped off by all the coin doctors. And I truly believe since their is a lot of money to be made in the hobby/industry coin doctoring has been and continues to be rampant and it is only prudent and self assuring to double check and triple check your major purchases what ever money level that may apply to you individually. ...
It is important to focus on the positive and negative characteristics of individual coins, and to discuss them. It does not make sense to think solely in terms of numerical grades and certifications.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
WIll someone please post and maintain a scoreboard?
Now that the debate has become tag-team, I am having trouble keeping score.
I don't think there is a score or needs to be one. Use CAC if you want......just don't put down coins that are not stickered.
For a lot of my material (mods, currency, world) its simply a moot issue as CAC is not involved with these. I can see where buyers of big ticket US Vintage material (especially over some threshold like $1000)l would prefer CAC coins, most of my material (am bulk investor) is below the $300 threshold I would consider for a CAC submission although I have purchased some CAC coins both below and above this amount where either the price was right for a coin I considered really PQ or simply to get a couple to gauge if they can sell at my normal cost+ markup.
This thread does attract my curiosity and wb doing a spreadsheet on what MS65 Saints are realizing on the Bay vs the CDN which separates out CAC and Non CAC wholesale bids.
Running my search for certified material (Coins and Currency) on ebay (ANACS,ICG,PCGS,NGC,PMG) I get 365.5 k items). Doing this search for CAC I get about 6.7 k or about 1.9% of the number of items in my search.
In the final analysis I urge one to look at the coin in good lighting and under a glass and judge by your own merits where it falls in the grade range before just jumping on it. I am very finicky about coins with dark spots, darkening toning (it gets darker the longer its exposed to the atmosphere), and gold coins with copper spots (not a buyer). I especially shy away from coins with surface haze especially where it may have been thumbed. Basically I prefer coins brilliant, well struck, no marks inconsistent with the grade, and with nice luster. I do buy toned coins if attractive, but many buyers shy away from these and prefer brilliant, white coins.
@tradedollarnut said:
Why would I want a person who is good at writing books to check the grade of my coins?
Pretty much. You will rarely find the combo of great researcher/historian/numismatic scholar ALONG WITH world class, king of the hill grader. I'm not aware of any. The skill sets tend to be somewhat different. And it takes oodles of time to be great at either one....and probably not enough time in a day to be world class at both. That's why some dealers research and others can form TPGs.
I'm not here to say that CAC is X or Y. My point is that the market has developed significant structural cracks since CAC has been around. They identified "discrepancies" in grading. Ignore it if you like. But, if you're holding fairly valuable, choice/gem MS/PF, non-generic, non-PCGS coins, your results when selling WILL be impacted. And if unstickered, they will be severely impacted. It could change next year....but, not likely. If you never plan to sell, or don't care what they do sell for down the road.....then none of this matters to you as a 100% purist collector. For those not in that camp, paying PCGS CAC-like money for non-PCGS, non-stickered coins, make sure you are a top notch grader and know what you're doing.
@spacehayduke said:
>
Well maybe its because the owner of that NGC holdered coin has never worried about the hype and hence kept his/her pq coin in its original holder he/she bought it in and never worried about a bean, or not, but instead just enjoyed the coin? I have many green beaned NGC coins that I bought without a bean and sent them in, my ratio of success for beans for both TPG's has been about the same........ So I don't see the stigma, I judge each coin for what it is, bean, no bean, NGC, no NGC......
Best, SH
Hey, that was me from 1987-2008. I never heeded any of the warnings about non-PCGS coins. I sent 95% of all my raw coins to NGC for 20 years. The coins in my personal collection were largely NGC. I spent 1988-1989 basically trading coins full time, attending auctions, cracking coins out, and trying to compete against the best graders in the country. That was not easy. And I did it mainly on NGC coins. I knew who the top few dozen graders were, and so did everyone else. No, QDB, Walter Breen, were never part of that group.
I enjoyed my coins. Most of them were quite nice for the grade. But boy, did I get killed when it came time to sell them at auction in the post-CAC world. Gem NGC bust/barber/seated coins with CAC stickers got roasted right along with the unstickered ones. It seemed like Bizzarro world. That was a huge change from 1998-2008. Now I finally realized what Larry Whitlow, Mike Printz, and Jim Swan were telling me way back in 2002. And it was the introduction of CAC in Nov 2008 along with the coin market crashing in late 2008/early 2009 that pushed ALL choice/gem, non-PCGS/non-generic coins into an oblivion of sorts. It hasn't changed back. While we did see the general effect coming back in 2006, I never once imagined that even the good coins would get thrown out with the marginal ones. That's just crazy. But, here we are living it.
There was never a stigma with me......well, except the "stigma" when the auction proceeds were 20-30% lower for the exact same quality in a PCGS holder (sticker or non-stickered, it didn't matter). So if you haven't sold many of your ch/gem non-generic/non-PCGS coins, your opinion doesn't hold the same weight of those that have routinely done it. And dealers selling coins to collectors who don't fully understand market grading and pricing, that doesn't count either.
@spacehayduke said:
>
Well maybe its because the owner of that NGC holdered coin has never worried about the hype and hence kept his/her pq coin in its original holder he/she bought it in and never worried about a bean, or not, but instead just enjoyed the coin? I have many green beaned NGC coins that I bought without a bean and sent them in, my ratio of success for beans for both TPG's has been about the same........ So I don't see the stigma, I judge each coin for what it is, bean, no bean, NGC, no NGC......
Best, SH
Hey, that was me from 1987-2008. I never heeded any of the warnings about non-PCGS coins. I sent 95% of all my raw coins to NGC for 20 years. The coins in my personal collection were largely NGC. I spent 1988-1989 basically trading coins full time, attending auctions, cracking coins out, and trying to compete against the best graders in the country. That was not easy. And I did it mainly on NGC coins. I knew who the top few dozen graders were, and so did everyone else. No, QDB, Walter Breen, were never part of that group.
I enjoyed my coins. Most of them were quite nice for the grade. But boy, did I get killed when it came time to sell them at auction in the post-CAC world. Gem NGC bust/barber/seated coins with CAC stickers got roasted right along with the unstickered ones. It seemed like Bizzarro world. That was a huge change from 1998-2008. Now I finally realized what Larry Whitlow, Mike Printz, and Jim Swan were telling me way back in 2002. And it was the introduction of CAC in Nov 2008 along with the coin market crashing in late 2008/early 2009 that pushed ALL choice/gem, non-PCGS/non-generic coins into an oblivion of sorts. It hasn't changed back. While we did see the general effect coming back in 2006, I never once imagined that even the good coins would get thrown out with the marginal ones. That's just crazy. But, here we are living it.
There was never a stigma with me......well, except the "stigma" when the auction proceeds were 20-30% lower for the exact same quality in a PCGS holder (sticker or non-stickered, it didn't matter). So if you haven't sold many of your ch/gem non-generic/non-PCGS coins, your opinion doesn't hold the same weight of those that have routinely done it. And dealers selling coins to collectors who don't fully understand market grading and pricing, that doesn't count either.
I think it depends on how you sell your coins and to whom, and if you are collecting to sell your coins or not. Yes it seems that in auctions NGC coins don't do as well as PCGS coins. I don't sell my coins at auction any longer, at least pq ones, of any holder simply because the auction houses take so much money and in a static market you lose. The only way to sell coins is direct to make money if that is your goal of buying in the first place. So you have to work for it and know where to sell the coins to the right collectors that want what you have to sell.
Side note - sunny and warm in H-Town right now for SB LI. We offer a great venue and great city for this event, as those of you that watch on the tele will see....... Now if only we could get a super coin show going here......
_If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. _
Huh? I'd compliment him on his expertise on either getting all his coins crossed and beaned or taking the safest route to a high end collection by buying the right combination of holder and sticker in the first place. The thought he was just buying holders would NEVER enter my mind and I completely fail to see your line of reasoning
@tradedollarnut said:
_If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. _
Huh? I'd compliment him on his expertise is either getting all his coins crossed and beaned or taking the safest route to a high end collection by buying the right combination of holder and sticker in the first place. The thought he was just buying holders would NEVER enter my mind and I completely fail to see your line of reasoning
Don't worry...he will be back to reply, with some MORE links to articles. EVERY post he makes has links to articles...even if they really aren't pertinent. NEVER a post without links to at least 1-2 of his articles.
Reading your post, I had to school back and see who posted it because I automatically ignore his posts now, due to the links and self-promotion in every post, so I didn't recall seeing it.
Wow! Several members have vivid imaginations, for some reason they continue to spew inaccurate information. If you don't want or need CAC's services then don't use them.
So why do they continue with their rants? I believe they know that by choosing not to use CAC their coin's are worth less money in the current market. I think that really bothers them and that's why they continue to rail against JA and CAC.
Things change sometimes for the better sometimes not, as a long time collector I to find it difficult to adapt at times. Perhaps it was the free submissions that CAC offered early on that first attracted me. I know that I made the right decision using CAC services simply because of what I have learned from JA. I view any increase in value as a bonus. This is why I highly recommend CAC to other collectors that do not possess professional grading skills.
Wow! Several members have vivid imaginations, for some reason they continue to spew inaccurate information. If you don't want or need CAC's services then don't use them.
So why do they continue with their rants? I believe they know that by choosing not to use CAC their coin's are worth less money in the current market. I think that really bothers them and that's why they continue to rail against JA and CAC.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
I resent the fact that any coin that doesn't have a sticker is viewed as "a loser" that is worth less money because ONE MAN has decided that is so. It would many thousands of dollars in shipping fees and insurance to get my collection regraded. I really resent that. ONE MAN should have that much power, especially when the service he offers is far easier to perform that a full blown grading service. I might feel differently if his batting average was close to 1.000, but it's not.
I don't boycott CAC coins. I bought three pieces at the last FUN show. Two of them were CAC approved. The third, the 1880 gold dollar in PCGS MS-65 that I've posted on this forum, I will guarantee you has never seen the inside of the CAC grading room. If it had, it would be CACd if the powers in charge there know their business at all.
I like markets, democracy and competition. I don't care for monoplies and dictators. As Bob Dylan wrote many years ago, "Don't follow leaders; watch your parking meters."
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
When CAC began, I didn't think it would last. Didn't think the coin market would buy into the idea so much as to make the CAC business stay afloat, much less make it a fad. About 4 or 5 years go by, I finally admitted CAC had caught on, was a fad, and I began having some of my coins submitted. CAC has been around, what, about 8 years now? The longer a fad stays around, the less it is a fad and more it is a new normal. I used to share the OP's sentiment about CAC being just a fad that would peter out (it still might). I now think it is here to stay, though, for better or for worse.
I still maintain today the CAC concept is only good at best, not great. I "get" what they're trying to do and why. It is a good way of going about weeding out "bad" coins, but not a great way. Still, I use their service because I don't want to leave too much money on the table when I sell.
Do I have a better way of going about weeding out "bad" coins? Not particularly. My knowledge within the coin industry is honed mostly to toned coins. My specialty is not fraud prevention/maintenance or reading markets, though I know a thing or two about psychology. I am forever learning coins and have been wrong about several market trends as well - popularity of CAC and Daniel Carr to name two.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
If they don't believe their coins are worth less money without CAC, they really need to spend just 2 minutes searching HA auction history. It is what it is.
Wow! Several members have vivid imaginations, for some reason they continue to spew inaccurate information. If you don't want or need CAC's services then don't use them.
So why do they continue with their rants? I believe they know that by choosing not to use CAC their coin's are worth less money in the current market. I think that really bothers them and that's why they continue to rail against JA and CAC.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
I resent the fact that any coin that doesn't have a sticker is viewed as "a loser" that is worth less money because ONE MAN has decided that is so. It would many thousands of dollars in shipping fees and insurance to get my collection regraded. I really resent that. ONE MAN should have that much power, especially when the service he offers is far easier to perform that a full blown grading service. I might feel differently if his batting average was close to 1.000, but it's not.
I don't boycott CAC coins. I bought three pieces at the last FUN show. Two of them were CAC approved. The third, the 1880 gold dollar in PCGS MS-65 that I've posted on this forum, I will guarantee you has never seen the inside of the CAC grading room. If it had, it would be CACd if the powers in charge there know their business at all.
I like markets, democracy and competition. I don't care for monoplies and dictators. As Bob Dylan wrote many years ago, "Don't follow leaders; watch your parking meters."
Actually, it's not one man that has decided so, it's the market that has decided so. Do you rant against Pcgs because the market has decided that your Ngc coins are worth less? I know you used to do so...haven't heard so much lately....
Quick observations: BillJones and dimeman -- are wrong again. They sure are consistent.
Both JA and QDB are worthy of the highest esteem, both, from my experiences and what I've been told, extremely nice people and coin guys with long, enviable track records. It almost seemed like this thread was slipping into a QDB bashing session, and I'm not sure why.
I need to make one more attempt at trying to explain my views on CAC and how the collecting world looks at CAC.
First and formost I am not a CAC basher or a basher of the fans of CAC. It's a proven fact that CAC coins usually sell for more money than non CAC coins. It comes down to buying or selling to me. When I am buying coins for my sets I will buy any coin I can find that I want or need raw or slabbed...sticker or no sticker. I trust PCGS and my own skills for the coins I buy. I guess what confuses me is collectors who must have all the coins in there collection CAC'ed. Here is where I have never gone into the CAC threads........when I go to sell. When that time comes I will have to look at the market and if it is still the way it is now I will have to base my decision on weither to CAC or not based on the value of the coin and the cost VS. gain factor.
Like I have mentioned before in other threads I have many coins that are CAC'ed, but I would have bought anyway. All of my Bust Dimes that were CAC'ed are not now because I had them attributed by JR number and reholdered thus losing the sticker. I also have many coins that I am sure would CAC, but I don't see the need to do so now. This may or may not change when it comes time to sell,
I am still in the camp with Bill Jones in believing too much importance is put on one mans opinion. Not putting JA down just saying. I respect his and PCGS' opinion and also trust my own skills on the coins I purchase. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and their collection.
Also, I would like to apologize for the "sheep" reference.
To each their own. In addition, I get the idea that the anti-CAC crowd really thinks that a CAC purchaser does not even look at the coin! How silly!!!
For me, I have a limited amount of time to devote to my coin collecting. Yes, I collect coins. However, when I look for coins to purchase I only look at PCGS-CAC. Will I possibly miss out on some undergraded coin in a non-CAC or non-PCGS holder? Possibly but that also means that I don't have to look at thousands of coins to find one worthy for me to purchase. By only looking at PCGS-CAC coins to purchase I limit the amount of coins and time I need to find something that I would purchase. I am very picky and just because the coin may be PCGS-CAC, it does not mean I would automatically purchase it. It still has to meet my criteria for a purchase. In other words I actually look at the coin to determine if I also think it meets the grade and does not have any distractions that I may not like.
As someone previously mentioned, I don't understand why someone would be upset with the way I choose to purchase coins as it doesn't impede the way anyone else purchases coins.
I just clicked on your set for the first time ever. Holy Cow, I must say it is impressive and had to be quite a challenge to assemble that baby!
As far as how you feel about CAC, you are equally dedicated in expressing that, in every single thread known to mankind, that even remotely mentions CAC!!!
Is someone not happy about not having all their coins CAC'ed? The myth of CAC being hyperbole is quickly dismissed with anyone taking the time to look at 20 coins CAC'ed vs. their counterparts that have been to CAC and were not stickered. When I started I used to think some "worked on" coins looked nice as well. :-)
Come to my table at Long Beach and tell me about all of my mediocre coins.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@DIMEMAN said:
I need to make one more attempt at trying to explain my views on CAC and how the collecting world looks at CAC.
First and formost I am not a CAC basher or a basher of the fans of CAC. It's a proven fact that CAC coins usually sell for more money than non CAC coins. It comes down to buying or selling to me. When I am buying coins for my sets I will buy any coin I can find that I want or need raw or slabbed...sticker or no sticker. I trust PCGS and my own skills for the coins I buy. I guess what confuses me is collectors who must have all the coins in there collection CAC'ed. Here is where I have never gone into the CAC threads........when I go to sell. When that time comes I will have to look at the market and if it is still the way it is now I will have to base my decision on weither to CAC or not based on the value of the coin and the cost VS. gain factor.
Like I have mentioned before in other threads I have many coins that are CAC'ed, but I would have bought anyway. All of my Bust Dimes that were CAC'ed are not now because I had them attributed by JR number and reholdered thus losing the sticker. I also have many coins that I am sure would CAC, but I don't see the need to do so now. This may or may not change when it comes time to sell,
I am still in the camp with Bill Jones in believing too much importance is put on one mans opinion. Not putting JA down just saying. I respect his and PCGS' opinion and also trust my own skills on the coins I purchase. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and their collection.
Also, I would like to apologize for the "sheep" reference.
This is all JMHO.
Good on you Jon.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@tradedollarnut said:
_If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. _
Huh? I'd compliment him on his expertise on either getting all his coins crossed and beaned or taking the safest route to a high end collection by buying the right combination of holder and sticker in the first place. The thought he was just buying holders would NEVER enter my mind and I completely fail to see your line of reasoning
I can see what you are saying but aren't you also a partner in a coin business and isn't this their business model?
I think it's very unfair to resent JA or CAC because of the cost of shipping and insurance because the have no control over these fees.
I understand why many people think that approving a pregraded coin is much easier than authenticating and grading a raw coin. I am convinced that JA spends significantly more time evaluating my coins than any of the third-party grading services. He does this because it requires more time to consistently maintain a stricter grading standards.
Comments
The bean is here to stay. Come on now, lets all get along. We all share the same hobby and that should be good enough for us all to respect one another. If it's just your opinion I can live with it. After all that's what makes the world turn. I just don't like to see this kind of pile on. I like dimeman and most all on this forum. I think we should all try to treat each other with a little more respect is all. That goes both ways. We should all respect each others opinion and keep it peaceful.
Carry on
Then what's with the sheep comments?
This is what PCGS is for.
Just thought I would try and throw some water on this issue. It is without question a touchy subject to say the least. Yes it's time for football that you have so eloquently pointed out that the CAC sticker is the shape of a football
Now that's funny .
So what does this say about me Bruce....that maybe I don't need CAC to tell me if PCGS graded the coin correctly.
Very sheeplike.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I know Joe. "A"for effort.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Error
Dimeman:
JustAcommeMan:
In relation to coin grading, the concept of batting averages is a better analogy than home run hitting. Nonetheless, I respect the home-run analogy, too. If an expert grader seems certain that a coin grades 64 while most other relevant experts grade it as 65 or higher, such an instance of under-grading is sort of like hitting a ball well enough to get a base hit, but not placing it in the outfield such that extra bases are viable.
CAC evaluates more than 400 coins every business day! Experts at CAC are very consistent. No service can be perfectly consistent. As Roadrunners says, if experts typically spend just seconds on a coin, then they will all strike out at times.
I have publicly referred to JA as the Ted Williams of coin grading, and I stand by this declaration. Because Ted Williams had trouble with some pitchers, it would not make sense to doubt his skills. Someone could put together a list of the instances in which Ted Williams struck out and then conclude Ted Williams was not a good baseball player.
I disagree with CAC on some coins, too. But, I agree with the certified grades of more than two-thirds of the coins in stickered holders, which I have seen. Most experts who I know do as well. There is wide scale agreement that CAC provides a valuable and very worthwhile service. I never said that everyone should buy only CAC approved coins or only PCGS certified coins; there are many variables relating to coins and collecting objectives.
Yes, JA has the highest batting average. Even so, when someone is considering spending more than $25k on a coin, it makes sense to obtain additional opinions, including an analysis of the reasons for a specific numerical grade rather than just being told that the assigned numerical grade is okay or not. Like playing baseball, grading coins is far more difficult than most observers or collectors realize. It would be counter-productive, however, to take the baseball analogy too far. In some ways, grading coins is more like being a detective than playing a physical sport.
When it comes to gold coins, it is indisputable that JA is often able to spot instances of doctoring that many other experts miss. I am astonished that there are knowledgeable, advanced collectors who are challenging this point. Please read my articles relating to coin doctoring and originality.
It is also true, though, that there are some never-doctored gold coins that I grade as 65, which JA will only grade as 64. IMO, these are often good values for collectors who like them. Once in a while, though very rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored.
Again, by mentioning the PCGS lawsuit in 2010, I am NOT implying here that the defendants engaged in wrongdoing of any kind. One or all of them may not have broken the law. Furthermore, alleged wrongdoing was never proved in a court of law. An immediate point is that PCGS graders, and all other relevant graders, are sometimes deceived by coin doctors, and that CAC experts are very skilled at identifying doctored coins.
Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors -- Sept. 2010
Click to Read: Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
Just let it go. Some like CAC and others feel no need for it. Some of my coins are CAC'ed and I gotta say they are lovely. But honestly I feel that pcgs does a great job grading coins. I wish all of my collection was in pcgs slabs because I feel the are the best show in town. It's either I agree with the grade assigned or I don't. But honestly I purchase coins that "I" find attractive. The main thing that numerically graded coins give me is the extra insurance that this coin has not been cleaned or mishandled. As far as the grade itself? Its not as important to me as the eye appeal. If the eye appeal is over the top then generally it will be assigned a high grade. Of course I don't want a coin that's all beat up with lifeless surfaces but I can see that for myself. All told, the way I collect, I don't have a need to have the grade graded. However I do understand that it makes some folks more comfortable buying high dollar coins. It appears to be VERY important for some collectors and a guy has got to respect that.
@Analyst
I can live with JA being the Ted Williams of grading. I used Babe Ruth as to illustrate stature rather then the HR angle.
Carry on On
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. If JA were to leave scene, what are you going to do? Start a religion and build temples all around the U.S. to keep the faith? Will it be something like L. Ron Hubbard and Church of Scientology?
Some of you have said that the demise of CAC would drive up the price of CAC'd coins because there would be no more. Are you serious?
If you are, this really is cult. It's based around the belief that only one man is qualified to pass judgment on a graded coin, despite the fact that he doesn't even grade coins. Only one man can determine if a coin has been doctored. That's just ludicrous. There are no irreplaceable human beings. There is no one person on earth who has God given powers that beyond all other human beings. He might have secret police and army that stands ready to kill off his opponents, but there are no human beings who that superior and unique to ALL OTHER human beings because of their innate qualities.
It is about the surfaces, severity of cleaning, and doctoring, this is where CAC can be really helpful. Alot of the coins they don't pass have these kinds of issues, it is not all about wear, most of us can grade the wear but instead the quality of the surfaces takes alot more experience to evaluate........ Ask yourself, do you have JAs decades of experience in this? If not, then it is likely that you are missing things. Whether one cares about this or not is another issue. I care, which is why I want CAC's opinion.
Best, SH
PS - this is a general 'you' I am talking about, not the post above this one by Bill Jones. Bill knows surfaces, that is for sure.......
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Bill your and Dimeman's analogies are out of this world. Wow. Eye roll
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
_It's a dangerous investment strategy to put all of your bets on the life of one man. _
I don't understand this statement. I'm using his opinion as one factor in my decision to purchase or pass on a coin - it's not like I'm handing him my money and expecting him to give it back to me one day and if he dies then poof it's gone
This is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Why is it that I get jumped on???!!! I'm just glad that someone of Bill's stature in this hobby comes out and says it like it is!
Time to watch the Dirty Birds put it on the Pat's.
Why is it that I get jumped on??
Might have something to do with the sheep comments...
In your opinion. I think your wrong. Bill too.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
THis is it exactly, from my point of view.
As someone who buys Coins I Like at what I consider a Fair Price, cracks them out, and enjoys them raw for 10 or 20 or 30 years, and never sells (yet), I can afford to mostly ignore PCGS and CAC for now. If the coins come with them at a Fair Price, so be it, but if not, that's fine too, usually I find better value with what I want in a rare "problem" coin than a "choice" common coin anyway.
BUT when the time comes to sell, OF COURSE I'll get my coins PCGSed and CACed and Well Photographed (and whatever else "you do" when that time comes) before I sell them. Why would I intentionally make things harder on myself and leave money on the table?
It makes perfect sense to me that folks with high turnover worship the services, and those with low turnover say "whatever!"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
While it is encouraging to exchange thoughts on subjects- even those in controversy- it is unfortunate that this thread, like others on the subject, seem to miss what is important. Oh well...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
WIll someone please post and maintain a scoreboard?
Now that the debate has become tag-team, I am having trouble keeping score.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
BillJones:
I wish Mr. Jones would read my articles or at least my posts to this thread. No one is saying that JA is infallible. I said that, "Once in a while, though very rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored." So, there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver in far more instances than gold. The point is that JA has the highest batting average. It is indisputable that CAC stickers, on average, add value to coins.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the Red Sox never won the World Series when Ted Williams was the team's star.
BillJones:
Mr. Jones is making a valid point; there are some people who take the stickers too seriously. If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. By all means, collectors should consult experts and seek additional analyses of coins. CAC is not the answer to all the problems in the coin business. Nonetheless, JA is the leading expert in U.S. gold coins; there is no doubt that this is so.
JustAcommeMan: I agree.
BillJones:
This is not a fair statment. Buying CAC stckered coins involves less risk ON AVERAGE, not always, than relevant non-CAC coins.
PCGS will not be around forever either. There will be new grading services, sooner or later.
Afford:
It is important to focus on the positive and negative characteristics of individual coins, and to discuss them. It does not make sense to think solely in terms of numerical grades and certifications.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
I don't think there is a score or needs to be one. Use CAC if you want......just don't put down coins that are not stickered.
For a lot of my material (mods, currency, world) its simply a moot issue as CAC is not involved with these. I can see where buyers of big ticket US Vintage material (especially over some threshold like $1000)l would prefer CAC coins, most of my material (am bulk investor) is below the $300 threshold I would consider for a CAC submission although I have purchased some CAC coins both below and above this amount where either the price was right for a coin I considered really PQ or simply to get a couple to gauge if they can sell at my normal cost+ markup.
This thread does attract my curiosity and wb doing a spreadsheet on what MS65 Saints are realizing on the Bay vs the CDN which separates out CAC and Non CAC wholesale bids.
Running my search for certified material (Coins and Currency) on ebay (ANACS,ICG,PCGS,NGC,PMG) I get 365.5 k items). Doing this search for CAC I get about 6.7 k or about 1.9% of the number of items in my search.
In the final analysis I urge one to look at the coin in good lighting and under a glass and judge by your own merits where it falls in the grade range before just jumping on it. I am very finicky about coins with dark spots, darkening toning (it gets darker the longer its exposed to the atmosphere), and gold coins with copper spots (not a buyer). I especially shy away from coins with surface haze especially where it may have been thumbed. Basically I prefer coins brilliant, well struck, no marks inconsistent with the grade, and with nice luster. I do buy toned coins if attractive, but many buyers shy away from these and prefer brilliant, white coins.
Pretty much. You will rarely find the combo of great researcher/historian/numismatic scholar ALONG WITH world class, king of the hill grader. I'm not aware of any. The skill sets tend to be somewhat different. And it takes oodles of time to be great at either one....and probably not enough time in a day to be world class at both. That's why some dealers research and others can form TPGs.
I'm not here to say that CAC is X or Y. My point is that the market has developed significant structural cracks since CAC has been around. They identified "discrepancies" in grading. Ignore it if you like. But, if you're holding fairly valuable, choice/gem MS/PF, non-generic, non-PCGS coins, your results when selling WILL be impacted. And if unstickered, they will be severely impacted. It could change next year....but, not likely. If you never plan to sell, or don't care what they do sell for down the road.....then none of this matters to you as a 100% purist collector. For those not in that camp, paying PCGS CAC-like money for non-PCGS, non-stickered coins, make sure you are a top notch grader and know what you're doing.
Hey, that was me from 1987-2008. I never heeded any of the warnings about non-PCGS coins. I sent 95% of all my raw coins to NGC for 20 years. The coins in my personal collection were largely NGC. I spent 1988-1989 basically trading coins full time, attending auctions, cracking coins out, and trying to compete against the best graders in the country. That was not easy. And I did it mainly on NGC coins. I knew who the top few dozen graders were, and so did everyone else. No, QDB, Walter Breen, were never part of that group.
I enjoyed my coins. Most of them were quite nice for the grade. But boy, did I get killed when it came time to sell them at auction in the post-CAC world. Gem NGC bust/barber/seated coins with CAC stickers got roasted right along with the unstickered ones. It seemed like Bizzarro world. That was a huge change from 1998-2008. Now I finally realized what Larry Whitlow, Mike Printz, and Jim Swan were telling me way back in 2002. And it was the introduction of CAC in Nov 2008 along with the coin market crashing in late 2008/early 2009 that pushed ALL choice/gem, non-PCGS/non-generic coins into an oblivion of sorts. It hasn't changed back. While we did see the general effect coming back in 2006, I never once imagined that even the good coins would get thrown out with the marginal ones. That's just crazy. But, here we are living it.
There was never a stigma with me......well, except the "stigma" when the auction proceeds were 20-30% lower for the exact same quality in a PCGS holder (sticker or non-stickered, it didn't matter). So if you haven't sold many of your ch/gem non-generic/non-PCGS coins, your opinion doesn't hold the same weight of those that have routinely done it. And dealers selling coins to collectors who don't fully understand market grading and pricing, that doesn't count either.
Thank you, Analyst.
Both links are now in their own folder in my favorites under "Coin INFORMATION"
Thanks for posting.
I think it depends on how you sell your coins and to whom, and if you are collecting to sell your coins or not. Yes it seems that in auctions NGC coins don't do as well as PCGS coins. I don't sell my coins at auction any longer, at least pq ones, of any holder simply because the auction houses take so much money and in a static market you lose. The only way to sell coins is direct to make money if that is your goal of buying in the first place. So you have to work for it and know where to sell the coins to the right collectors that want what you have to sell.
Side note - sunny and warm in H-Town right now for SB LI. We offer a great venue and great city for this event, as those of you that watch on the tele will see....... Now if only we could get a super coin show going here......
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
He came from another world to grade your coins!
SuperGrader!
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Certainly looks like everyone is having fun with this hobby. Cool thread.
Ken
From a collector's point of view, it would be interesting to see:
ALL of the coins that were cracked and resubmitted. With corrections in the TPG database.
ALL of the coins cracked out of a TPG and submitted to another. With corrections in the TPG database.
List of ALL of the coins submitted to CAC but did not pass.
List of ALL coins that have been conserved.
_If someone showed me a collection of more than 750 pre-1934 coins (other than generics), including some very expensive cons, and each was PCGS-CAC, I would wonder whether that collector was just buying the holders rather than the coins. _
Huh? I'd compliment him on his expertise on either getting all his coins crossed and beaned or taking the safest route to a high end collection by buying the right combination of holder and sticker in the first place. The thought he was just buying holders would NEVER enter my mind and I completely fail to see your line of reasoning
Don't worry...he will be back to reply, with some MORE links to articles. EVERY post he makes has links to articles...even if they really aren't pertinent. NEVER a post without links to at least 1-2 of his articles.
Reading your post, I had to school back and see who posted it because I automatically ignore his posts now, due to the links and self-promotion in every post, so I didn't recall seeing it.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Wow! Several members have vivid imaginations, for some reason they continue to spew inaccurate information. If you don't want or need CAC's services then don't use them.
So why do they continue with their rants? I believe they know that by choosing not to use CAC their coin's are worth less money in the current market. I think that really bothers them and that's why they continue to rail against JA and CAC.
Things change sometimes for the better sometimes not, as a long time collector I to find it difficult to adapt at times. Perhaps it was the free submissions that CAC offered early on that first attracted me. I know that I made the right decision using CAC services simply because of what I have learned from JA. I view any increase in value as a bonus. This is why I highly recommend CAC to other collectors that do not possess professional grading skills.
So why do they continue with their rants? I believe they know that by choosing not to use CAC their coin's are worth less money in the current market. I think that really bothers them and that's why they continue to rail against JA and CAC.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
I resent the fact that any coin that doesn't have a sticker is viewed as "a loser" that is worth less money because ONE MAN has decided that is so. It would many thousands of dollars in shipping fees and insurance to get my collection regraded. I really resent that. ONE MAN should have that much power, especially when the service he offers is far easier to perform that a full blown grading service. I might feel differently if his batting average was close to 1.000, but it's not.
I don't boycott CAC coins. I bought three pieces at the last FUN show. Two of them were CAC approved. The third, the 1880 gold dollar in PCGS MS-65 that I've posted on this forum, I will guarantee you has never seen the inside of the CAC grading room. If it had, it would be CACd if the powers in charge there know their business at all.
I like markets, democracy and competition. I don't care for monoplies and dictators. As Bob Dylan wrote many years ago, "Don't follow leaders; watch your parking meters."
When CAC began, I didn't think it would last. Didn't think the coin market would buy into the idea so much as to make the CAC business stay afloat, much less make it a fad. About 4 or 5 years go by, I finally admitted CAC had caught on, was a fad, and I began having some of my coins submitted. CAC has been around, what, about 8 years now? The longer a fad stays around, the less it is a fad and more it is a new normal. I used to share the OP's sentiment about CAC being just a fad that would peter out (it still might). I now think it is here to stay, though, for better or for worse.
I still maintain today the CAC concept is only good at best, not great. I "get" what they're trying to do and why. It is a good way of going about weeding out "bad" coins, but not a great way. Still, I use their service because I don't want to leave too much money on the table when I sell.
Do I have a better way of going about weeding out "bad" coins? Not particularly. My knowledge within the coin industry is honed mostly to toned coins. My specialty is not fraud prevention/maintenance or reading markets, though I know a thing or two about psychology. I am forever learning coins and have been wrong about several market trends as well - popularity of CAC and Daniel Carr to name two.
If they don't believe their coins are worth less money without CAC, they really need to spend just 2 minutes searching HA auction history. It is what it is.
Actually, it's not one man that has decided so, it's the market that has decided so. Do you rant against Pcgs because the market has decided that your Ngc coins are worth less? I know you used to do so...haven't heard so much lately....
Quick observations: BillJones and dimeman -- are wrong again. They sure are consistent.
Both JA and QDB are worthy of the highest esteem, both, from my experiences and what I've been told, extremely nice people and coin guys with long, enviable track records. It almost seemed like this thread was slipping into a QDB bashing session, and I'm not sure why.
Carry on!
I need to make one more attempt at trying to explain my views on CAC and how the collecting world looks at CAC.
First and formost I am not a CAC basher or a basher of the fans of CAC. It's a proven fact that CAC coins usually sell for more money than non CAC coins. It comes down to buying or selling to me. When I am buying coins for my sets I will buy any coin I can find that I want or need raw or slabbed...sticker or no sticker. I trust PCGS and my own skills for the coins I buy. I guess what confuses me is collectors who must have all the coins in there collection CAC'ed. Here is where I have never gone into the CAC threads........when I go to sell. When that time comes I will have to look at the market and if it is still the way it is now I will have to base my decision on weither to CAC or not based on the value of the coin and the cost VS. gain factor.
Like I have mentioned before in other threads I have many coins that are CAC'ed, but I would have bought anyway. All of my Bust Dimes that were CAC'ed are not now because I had them attributed by JR number and reholdered thus losing the sticker. I also have many coins that I am sure would CAC, but I don't see the need to do so now. This may or may not change when it comes time to sell,
I am still in the camp with Bill Jones in believing too much importance is put on one mans opinion. Not putting JA down just saying. I respect his and PCGS' opinion and also trust my own skills on the coins I purchase. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and their collection.
Also, I would like to apologize for the "sheep" reference.
This is all JMHO.
To each their own. In addition, I get the idea that the anti-CAC crowd really thinks that a CAC purchaser does not even look at the coin! How silly!!!
For me, I have a limited amount of time to devote to my coin collecting. Yes, I collect coins. However, when I look for coins to purchase I only look at PCGS-CAC. Will I possibly miss out on some undergraded coin in a non-CAC or non-PCGS holder? Possibly but that also means that I don't have to look at thousands of coins to find one worthy for me to purchase. By only looking at PCGS-CAC coins to purchase I limit the amount of coins and time I need to find something that I would purchase. I am very picky and just because the coin may be PCGS-CAC, it does not mean I would automatically purchase it. It still has to meet my criteria for a purchase. In other words I actually look at the coin to determine if I also think it meets the grade and does not have any distractions that I may not like.
As someone previously mentioned, I don't understand why someone would be upset with the way I choose to purchase coins as it doesn't impede the way anyone else purchases coins.
Joe.
DIMEMAN:
I just clicked on your set for the first time ever. Holy Cow, I must say it is impressive and had to be quite a challenge to assemble that baby!
As far as how you feel about CAC, you are equally dedicated in expressing that, in every single thread known to mankind, that even remotely mentions CAC!!!
Is someone not happy about not having all their coins CAC'ed? The myth of CAC being hyperbole is quickly dismissed with anyone taking the time to look at 20 coins CAC'ed vs. their counterparts that have been to CAC and were not stickered. When I started I used to think some "worked on" coins looked nice as well. :-)
Come to my table at Long Beach and tell me about all of my mediocre coins.
I gotta admit. When I search eBay, I do my search by PCGS and NGC with CAC.
That's because you must adhere to your moniker, only "topstuf"!
PCGS and NGC attempt to assign the most appropriate grade to every coin.
CAC determines if they would want to buy the coin at the already-assigned grade.
As every reasonably fussy collector knows, these are very, very different things. Is this not obvious?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
BINGO!
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Good on you Jon.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I can see what you are saying but aren't you also a partner in a coin business and isn't this their business model?
I think it's very unfair to resent JA or CAC because of the cost of shipping and insurance because the have no control over these fees.
I understand why many people think that approving a pregraded coin is much easier than authenticating and grading a raw coin. I am convinced that JA spends significantly more time evaluating my coins than any of the third-party grading services. He does this because it requires more time to consistently maintain a stricter grading standards.
Sure am - I practice what I preach