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The "shadow coin show'......

bidaskbidask Posts: 14,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




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  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If someone "can't find anything to buy" at a major coin show, they must be pretty darn discriminating in their taste, huh?

    The intersection of quality and price just ain't there? Must have a pretty killer collection already then, so congrats! Be happy!



    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For me it is never a question of finding something to buy. Instead it is a question getting the most for what I have to spend!

    There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!
  • thisnamztakenthisnamztaken Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good article. Thanks for sharing the link.
    I never thought that growing old would happen so fast.
    - Jim
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some very good points are made in the article. However, I would be happy to come home

    empty handed if I only had coin shows to attend.....at least I would get to look... Cheers, RickO

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One thing I took from the article is that auctions may be the preferred way to obtain fresh high end coins
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with most of it. One issue I see though....if Collector X skips the show next time then he becomes out of sight and out of mind instead of building more relationships with more dealers or making the relationships he already has, stronger. That will work against him! You have to be in the game to win!



    At Winter FUN I only picked up one coin but I spent a ton of time meeting people, building relationships etc. I have even kept in email/phone contact with a number of people I met at FUN, collectors that might be selling and dealers that carry what I am interested in. To improve your chances, just like a dealer, you have to be there to maximize opportunities at the show and throughout the year.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭
    Interesting article. Personally, I have never walked out of a major show without a bag full of coins and an empty wallet. This is probably due to the fact that I collect a lot of different stuff, both US and foreign.
    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I very often leave shows without buying anything.
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good article. Thanks for the link.
  • fishteethfishteeth Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think this "shadow show", is what is causing auction houses to grow. My life is busy I don't have time to cultivate a bunch of relationships with national dealers.
    Heritage, however, is an equalizer. Most of my best and most expensive coins have come from Heritage, in a Heritage auction I am treated the same as some well as any big name dealer.
    perhaps dealers should stop hiding their stuff behind the table, be a little more friendly and open to working with the average collector. Otherwise I am going to keep working with Heritage, and when it comes time to sell, probably sell to Heritage.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting article with many good points. I haven't heard the commentary about the larger auction houses so openly stated previously. I haven't been active in this hobby as long as most, but it seems the larger shows are less and less about collectors, which is incredibly odd. Who do people think buy this stuff? Dealers selling to dealers, dealers churning stuff through the upgrade/regrade/sticker machine, and dealers vacuuming up the latest US Mint flip is what it is has become for many.



    I do think the game has changed for dealers quite a bit. They're competing for the same coins as collectors at the big auctions. One thing they can provide that the auction houses really can't is identifying the cream of the crop, specializing in a certain area, and giving personalized assistance with setbuilding. The ones who are adding value for their clients seem to be doing well. The ones who are stuck in the past seem to be struggling more.



    As for the shadow show, I agree. At big shows I'm now looking more for educational opportunities, auction lot previewing, networking with friends and dealers, and less about buying and selling.
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Excellent article. Between large auction houses and dealers, this let me to think between Wallmart and mom-and-pop shops. Technology is changing and big boys adopts the Internet, coin dealers can't blame on new technology that takes away their opportunity. Instead, small coin dealers need to find a way to face the challenge. Or you will be history.

    If coin owners can sell more and get paid fast on coin show floor, they won't consign to auctions. There must be more reasons why many many coins went to phone book auction house? Should we talk about this? Selling at phone book auctions, you get about 85%-90% of the final realized price (aka about 105% to 107.5% of hammer price). When you have a very nice coin to sell, will small dealers pay 90% of the retail price?
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: keyman64
    You have to be in the game to win!.


    Excellent statement. I would say "You have to be in the games to have a chance to win."

    If you step back and ask yourself, what do you want from coins? Are you looking for
    1) money making only?
    2) Fun and happiness only?
    3) Fun and make a lot of profit?
    4) Fun and don't lose too much?
    5) you tell me.

    Most folks would pick 3); nonetheless, when you cannot make it for various reasons, what will you do? Scale back to 4) or quit this hobby?

    For folks pick 2), I bet you know what you are doing image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.



    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Hydrant
    Originally posted by: keyman64
    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.

    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.


    You're a wise man.



    I'm glad I was never that "wise". Could have cost me a lifetime of fun and profit.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Hydrant

    Originally posted by: keyman64

    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.



    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.




    You're a wise man.




    At just about every show, collectors offer coins for sale to dealers. Dealers buy some of them with immediate payment. Many collectors sell coins they no longer want, and use those funds to buy coins they do want. Some collectors don't want to consign some of their coins to auction, not have an idea what amounts they will sell for, and don't want to wait a few months between the time the coins are consigned and payment is received.



    I've purchased coins from all of the major auction houses for less, and in many cases, way less, than I would have paid if someone had brought the exact same coin to my table. But I don't hear anyone saying if you consign a coin to auction, you might be leaving money on the table.



    It would be a dismal coin show indeed if dealers didn't buy coins from collectors.



    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    I guess if you're not an elite collector, you'll never get any elite coins - unless you buy them from Heritage (at lower prices than from dealers).
    image
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keywords folks! I did not say 100% of the time. I said "more than likely." I have sold coins quickly to dealers at shows before. It freed up cash, lessened the hassle of dealing with a week or month long sale process, etc etc etc. But I do not recall ever selling my top highest quality of material to dealers. The best stuff is always in high demand! If you show something to a dealer and they are eager to buy it then that probably tells you they can quickly make money on the item....which also tells you that if you have the time and ability to do your own homework then you can likely find more money for your item elsewhere. You have to know your niche.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,010 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting article - thanks for the link.

    I believe the "shadow coin show" (preshow dealer only wholesale)
    has been going on for years; it's not new. It's a necessary part of the process to
    get coins to the specialty dealers.

    I believe what Doug Winter is saying about the decline of "good" coins found when
    walking the floor is due to the internet in 2 ways:

    1. The high end coins go to Heritage. They sell for more there, since there are national
    internet buyers who do not need to go to the show. Of course it still helps to have the
    dealers there to do the lot viewing for the wise internet buyers.

    2. The specialty dealer new purchases are not offered on the floor,
    because they can be sold for more to internet buyers on the dealer's website.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: keyman64

    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.



    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.




    I think this is just a lazy and convenient narrative. I've done very well building strong relationships with dealers on the buy and sell side.
  • lunytune2lunytune2 Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Boosibri
    Originally posted by: keyman64
    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.

    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.


    I think this is just a lazy and convenient narrative. I've done very well building strong relationships with dealers on the buy and sell side.


    I have built a strong relationship with a dealer lately. He is more than fair buying from , selling to , and even better on trades.
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Enjoyed the read. I keep thinking that the excess # of shows will one day self correct, but it hasn't happened yet. Our Tennessee State show this year fell on the same weekend as the Dallas ANA show. I would guess 40% of the tables were empty. Made for a short day. Bought an exceptionally nice 37-s Washington in 66, but that was my only purchase of the day.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug's article explains why I can't find much at the shows any more. The thing about Heritage auctions is that they often get prices that go way beyond what the market says coins are worth. Every time I bid on an item, the price goes to the stratosphere, even for "dark side" material. Perhaps I should hire myself out as a shill. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's funny, but I've been buying nice Large Cents from Tom Reynolds for over 20 years, and one of the main reasons is that he always shows up for the shows that are close to me, and he always sticks around until Sunday. He sets out a bunch of coins and still has others that he can drag out if I ask.

    I haven't done much business with the other Large Cent dealers that have shown up sporadically and don't stick around very long. They'll never know what I would've bought. Reap what you sow.

    Oh my! Did I say 20 years? More like 30 years. Time flies.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Hydrant

    O.k.! I take it back. My mistake. I've sold coins to dealers at coin shows. It usually works out for the best. I was just trying to make the guy feel good. I'm that kind of a person. Thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and sensitive to the feelings of others. Geez!




    Hey, it's all good. Your comments are always welcome. I was just trying to point out that there is another way to look at it.



    I do agree that one way a collector can maximize his/her success finding coins at a show is to build a relationship with a dealer. The dealer might have a new purchase or have seen a coin of interest to that collector, and would show that coin to the collector when he/she visited the table.



    At the Baltimore show, several coins that were not on display for various reasons* were sold to collectors who stopped by, I knew what they were looking for and was able to show them coins they wanted to purchase. A win for the collector who had built the relationship, and a win for me also.



    *Various reasons includes newps that hadn't been priced yet, coins out on memo to someone else, auction lots not yet picked up, coins being prepared to send in for grading, coins whose attribution had not yet been verified, etc.



    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: RichieURich

    Originally posted by: Hydrant

    O.k.! I take it back. My mistake. I've sold coins to dealers at coin shows. It usually works out for the best. I was just trying to make the guy feel good. I'm that kind of a person. Thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and sensitive to the feelings of others. Geez!




    Hey, it's all good. Your comments are always welcome. I was just trying to point out that there is another way to look at it.



    I do agree that one way a collector can maximize his/her success finding coins at a show is to build a relationship with a dealer. The dealer might have a new purchase or have seen a coin of interest to that collector, and would show that coin to the collector when he/she visited the table.



    At the Baltimore show, several coins that were not on display for various reasons* were sold to collectors who stopped by, I knew what they were looking for and was able to show them coins they wanted to purchase. A win for the collector who had built the relationship, and a win for me also.



    *Various reasons includes newps that hadn't been priced yet, coins out on memo to someone else, auction lots not yet picked up, coins being prepared to send in for grading, coins whose attribution had not yet been verified, etc.







    Great to hear your stories. You are one of the nice guys in the business.



    Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why buy a coin and not put it out at show? If it doesn't sell then put it online. Wouldn't you want to make some money without having to work and hold it very long? Unless you ripped it and don't want the seller to find out while they are still in the room. I know of a few times this is why coins are not marketed at a show.

    The collector position that cries around because there are not killers priced at wholesale, maybe it's time to become a dealer then and shoulder all that responsibility and put back what you like for your collection. It's a trade off.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN

    For me it is never a question of finding something to buy. Instead it is a question getting the most for what I have to spend!



    There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!




    Agree and most of us have that same problem.image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: WildIdea

    Why buy a coin and not put it out at show? If it doesn't sell then put it online. Wouldn't you want to make some money without having to work and hold it very long?




    Because I don't want to come home from a major show and say to my internet customers, "Every coin I bought at the show has already been sold at the show. Sorry, tough luck."



    Similarly, I don't put every new coin on the website before a big show. A collector who spends his/her time and money to go to a big show deserves to see some new purchases before they hit the website.



    I was a collector for a long time before I became a dealer. I have thought this through from both perspectives, and this is what I decided to do.



    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PerryHall
    Originally posted by: DIMEMAN
    For me it is never a question of finding something to buy. Instead it is a question getting the most for what I have to spend!

    There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!


    Agree and most of us have that same problem.image



    It's different for dealers. They can only buy things that are priced at a level at which a profit can be made. Often, that means wading through hundreds of coins that they would like to buy, and only being able to buy one or two. It used to be much, much easier than that. The point is that when you hear dealers say that they can't find much to buy, what they really mean is that they can't find much to buy at advantageous prices.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: WildIdea

    Why buy a coin and not put it out at show? If it doesn't sell then put it online. Wouldn't you want to make some money without having to work and hold it very long?




    Nothing to do with rips. It's has everything to do with a business plan that includes internet sales which are the new life blood of this hobby......... collector and dealer alike. The fine dance is to learn which coins are beter suited for the Internet. Those would include the most likely to be photogenic



    mark



    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: keyman64

    I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.



    HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.




    Depends on the dealer and how well you know him / her.



    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them."

    I don't think that this should always be a collector's reaction. Sometimes you will net more by selling to a specialty dealer. If a generalist B&M dealer expresses interest, then what he would likely want to do is flip it to another dealer who is a specialist or has a customer want list for the item---in such an instance, I do think that an alternate selling strategy would net the collector more money. There are no absolutes. Sometimes the sales venue that works best at one point in time will be suboptimal a year (sometimes a few months) later.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    A very insightful and thought-provoking observation by Mr. Winter. I've been collecting coins for over 60 yrs; and I've always thought that the "big" coins were always to be found at the "big" shows.

    I guess I'll have to think about this, and find a "personal" dealer to work with.
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.

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