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The "shadow coin show'......
bidask
Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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The intersection of quality and price just ain't there? Must have a pretty killer collection already then, so congrats! Be happy!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!
- Jim
empty handed if I only had coin shows to attend.....at least I would get to look... Cheers, RickO
At Winter FUN I only picked up one coin but I spent a ton of time meeting people, building relationships etc. I have even kept in email/phone contact with a number of people I met at FUN, collectors that might be selling and dealers that carry what I am interested in. To improve your chances, just like a dealer, you have to be there to maximize opportunities at the show and throughout the year.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Heritage, however, is an equalizer. Most of my best and most expensive coins have come from Heritage, in a Heritage auction I am treated the same as some well as any big name dealer.
perhaps dealers should stop hiding their stuff behind the table, be a little more friendly and open to working with the average collector. Otherwise I am going to keep working with Heritage, and when it comes time to sell, probably sell to Heritage.
I do think the game has changed for dealers quite a bit. They're competing for the same coins as collectors at the big auctions. One thing they can provide that the auction houses really can't is identifying the cream of the crop, specializing in a certain area, and giving personalized assistance with setbuilding. The ones who are adding value for their clients seem to be doing well. The ones who are stuck in the past seem to be struggling more.
As for the shadow show, I agree. At big shows I'm now looking more for educational opportunities, auction lot previewing, networking with friends and dealers, and less about buying and selling.
If coin owners can sell more and get paid fast on coin show floor, they won't consign to auctions. There must be more reasons why many many coins went to phone book auction house? Should we talk about this? Selling at phone book auctions, you get about 85%-90% of the final realized price (aka about 105% to 107.5% of hammer price). When you have a very nice coin to sell, will small dealers pay 90% of the retail price?
You have to be in the game to win!.
Excellent statement. I would say "You have to be in the games to have a chance to win."
If you step back and ask yourself, what do you want from coins? Are you looking for
1) money making only?
2) Fun and happiness only?
3) Fun and make a lot of profit?
4) Fun and don't lose too much?
5) you tell me.
Most folks would pick 3); nonetheless, when you cannot make it for various reasons, what will you do? Scale back to 4) or quit this hobby?
For folks pick 2), I bet you know what you are doing
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
You're a wise man.
I'm glad I was never that "wise". Could have cost me a lifetime of fun and profit.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
You're a wise man.
At just about every show, collectors offer coins for sale to dealers. Dealers buy some of them with immediate payment. Many collectors sell coins they no longer want, and use those funds to buy coins they do want. Some collectors don't want to consign some of their coins to auction, not have an idea what amounts they will sell for, and don't want to wait a few months between the time the coins are consigned and payment is received.
I've purchased coins from all of the major auction houses for less, and in many cases, way less, than I would have paid if someone had brought the exact same coin to my table. But I don't hear anyone saying if you consign a coin to auction, you might be leaving money on the table.
It would be a dismal coin show indeed if dealers didn't buy coins from collectors.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I believe the "shadow coin show" (preshow dealer only wholesale)
has been going on for years; it's not new. It's a necessary part of the process to
get coins to the specialty dealers.
I believe what Doug Winter is saying about the decline of "good" coins found when
walking the floor is due to the internet in 2 ways:
1. The high end coins go to Heritage. They sell for more there, since there are national
internet buyers who do not need to go to the show. Of course it still helps to have the
dealers there to do the lot viewing for the wise internet buyers.
2. The specialty dealer new purchases are not offered on the floor,
because they can be sold for more to internet buyers on the dealer's website.
I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
I think this is just a lazy and convenient narrative. I've done very well building strong relationships with dealers on the buy and sell side.
Latin American Collection
I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
I think this is just a lazy and convenient narrative. I've done very well building strong relationships with dealers on the buy and sell side.
I have built a strong relationship with a dealer lately. He is more than fair buying from , selling to , and even better on trades.
I haven't done much business with the other Large Cent dealers that have shown up sporadically and don't stick around very long. They'll never know what I would've bought. Reap what you sow.
Oh my! Did I say 20 years? More like 30 years. Time flies.
I knew it would happen.
O.k.! I take it back. My mistake. I've sold coins to dealers at coin shows. It usually works out for the best. I was just trying to make the guy feel good. I'm that kind of a person. Thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and sensitive to the feelings of others. Geez!
Hey, it's all good. Your comments are always welcome. I was just trying to point out that there is another way to look at it.
I do agree that one way a collector can maximize his/her success finding coins at a show is to build a relationship with a dealer. The dealer might have a new purchase or have seen a coin of interest to that collector, and would show that coin to the collector when he/she visited the table.
At the Baltimore show, several coins that were not on display for various reasons* were sold to collectors who stopped by, I knew what they were looking for and was able to show them coins they wanted to purchase. A win for the collector who had built the relationship, and a win for me also.
*Various reasons includes newps that hadn't been priced yet, coins out on memo to someone else, auction lots not yet picked up, coins being prepared to send in for grading, coins whose attribution had not yet been verified, etc.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
O.k.! I take it back. My mistake. I've sold coins to dealers at coin shows. It usually works out for the best. I was just trying to make the guy feel good. I'm that kind of a person. Thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and sensitive to the feelings of others. Geez!
Hey, it's all good. Your comments are always welcome. I was just trying to point out that there is another way to look at it.
I do agree that one way a collector can maximize his/her success finding coins at a show is to build a relationship with a dealer. The dealer might have a new purchase or have seen a coin of interest to that collector, and would show that coin to the collector when he/she visited the table.
At the Baltimore show, several coins that were not on display for various reasons* were sold to collectors who stopped by, I knew what they were looking for and was able to show them coins they wanted to purchase. A win for the collector who had built the relationship, and a win for me also.
*Various reasons includes newps that hadn't been priced yet, coins out on memo to someone else, auction lots not yet picked up, coins being prepared to send in for grading, coins whose attribution had not yet been verified, etc.
Great to hear your stories. You are one of the nice guys in the business.
The collector position that cries around because there are not killers priced at wholesale, maybe it's time to become a dealer then and shoulder all that responsibility and put back what you like for your collection. It's a trade off.
For me it is never a question of finding something to buy. Instead it is a question getting the most for what I have to spend!
There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!
Agree and most of us have that same problem.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Why buy a coin and not put it out at show? If it doesn't sell then put it online. Wouldn't you want to make some money without having to work and hold it very long?
Because I don't want to come home from a major show and say to my internet customers, "Every coin I bought at the show has already been sold at the show. Sorry, tough luck."
Similarly, I don't put every new coin on the website before a big show. A collector who spends his/her time and money to go to a big show deserves to see some new purchases before they hit the website.
I was a collector for a long time before I became a dealer. I have thought this through from both perspectives, and this is what I decided to do.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
For me it is never a question of finding something to buy. Instead it is a question getting the most for what I have to spend!
There is never is never a shortage of coins I want to buy....just a shortage of $$$$$!
Agree and most of us have that same problem.
It's different for dealers. They can only buy things that are priced at a level at which a profit can be made. Often, that means wading through hundreds of coins that they would like to buy, and only being able to buy one or two. It used to be much, much easier than that. The point is that when you hear dealers say that they can't find much to buy, what they really mean is that they can't find much to buy at advantageous prices.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Why buy a coin and not put it out at show? If it doesn't sell then put it online. Wouldn't you want to make some money without having to work and hold it very long?
Nothing to do with rips. It's has everything to do with a business plan that includes internet sales which are the new life blood of this hobby......... collector and dealer alike. The fine dance is to learn which coins are beter suited for the Internet. Those would include the most likely to be photogenic
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I agree, I don't care how nice your coin is, if you sell to a dealer then you are more than likely leaving money on the table. If you sell a coin for over $1k at Great Collections it costs you less than $20. If you sell it to another collector then you are looking at strong money as well.
HINT: If a dealer is interested or even excited about buying a coin from you then that should be your first clue NOT to sell it to them. Do your homework.
Depends on the dealer and how well you know him / her.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I don't think that this should always be a collector's reaction. Sometimes you will net more by selling to a specialty dealer. If a generalist B&M dealer expresses interest, then what he would likely want to do is flip it to another dealer who is a specialist or has a customer want list for the item---in such an instance, I do think that an alternate selling strategy would net the collector more money. There are no absolutes. Sometimes the sales venue that works best at one point in time will be suboptimal a year (sometimes a few months) later.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I guess I'll have to think about this, and find a "personal" dealer to work with.