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Auction strategy
EastonCollection
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There are some big time collections coming to market in the next several months with T Reynolds cooper collection, Dr Pete's barber Haves and Elbert Henry Gray's calfracs. Over the past several years, there also have been many great collections that were sold. I was wondering what the strategies do collectors use to acquire those coins that he desires.
Personally, I develop a spreadsheet listing those coins that I desire, with POP listing and my personal comments about the coin i.e. original toning, last trades and pedigrees, if known. From there, I rank which coins are most important to me to acquire within my budget and then assign the highest price that I am willing to pay.
I am missing anything else?
What is your strategy?
Do you consult with anyone else?
Buy at all costs?
Personally, I develop a spreadsheet listing those coins that I desire, with POP listing and my personal comments about the coin i.e. original toning, last trades and pedigrees, if known. From there, I rank which coins are most important to me to acquire within my budget and then assign the highest price that I am willing to pay.
I am missing anything else?
What is your strategy?
Do you consult with anyone else?
Buy at all costs?
Easton Collection
0
Comments
However, for me, this strategy only applies to coins that top out at moderate prices.
When I have acquired a top end, low pop, high dollar coin for my WLH collection (from auction, not dealer inventory), I request a review of the coin by trusted dealers. I typically forward my research to the dealer to help with their assessment, for their information.
Having their eyes land on the coin and then getting the OK is extremely important.
This scenario doesn't happen much - for example - of the 40 coins in my WLH late date collection, only 2 have been sourced at auction.
I get the impression you are spending big bucks. You likely should get an independent expert review. Perhaps a trip to the auction as well for in person viewing, too - nothing wrong with belt and suspenders protection.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Barry: You could always use John Jay Pittman's bidding strategy: Get a seat in the front row of the auction. When your lot(s) are being bid on, stand up, raise your bidder card high above your head and stay there until the auctioneer declares you the winner. I have read this account of his bidding numerous times. After awhile, when the other bidders saw him stand up doing his bidding thing, many just gave up their bidding and just let him have the coin at what ever the bid was at just prior to his jumping in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Barry: You could always use John Jay Pittman's bidding strategy: Get a seat in the front row of the auction. When your lot(s) are being bid on, stand up, raise your bidder card high above your head and stay there until the auctioneer declares you the winner. I have read this account of his bidding numerous times. After awhile, when the other bidders saw him stand up doing his bidding thing, many just gave up their bidding and just let him have the coin at what ever the bid was at just prior to his jumping in.
I love that Pittman approach! But need assistance with how to do it with online bidding.......
Also, getting a trusted dealer to view the coins are critically important. Thanks Nic
consult me about the order in which to place lots; most to least important. It's hard to plan
a strategy with that said. So I just place a max bid for each coin and hope for the best.
I don't mind when the winning bid is one or two increments, but double, triple or more
makes me wonder what I missed in my research. Happy New Year to all!!!
My auction experience is all done online. Most times I wish the auction companies would
consult me about the order in which to place lots; most to least important. It's hard to plan
a strategy with that said. So I just place a max bid for each coin and hope for the best.
I don't mind when the winning bid is one or two increments, but double, triple or more
makes me wonder what I missed in my research. Happy New Year to all!!!
Sometimes, the prices realized is mind boggling to me as well. When a coin sells for double or more than what I expect, I always wonder what I missed..... or the high bidder was just wanted the lot at all cost.
"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
They are all "Dark side" coins. I don't think I've ever been lucky enough
to own a coin in the condition census. Maybe someday.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Unless you're the consignor, fees coming out of the bidder's pockets are unchanged over the past 40+ years. Auction fees are nothing more than an "MSRP." If you want to pay them, that's your choice. As both consignor and bidder, I've never paid "MSRP" and have whittled down current auction fees to make them effectively the same as 25 years ago.
I've done the Pittman "statue of Liberty" play twice in my career....both turned out poorly. One time it was on the floor and I literally ended up paying 65% over my recorded max bid....and 2X what the coin was really worth (it was a finest known). It turned out to be a fairly poor investment compared to other similar coins I could have purchased in that same era w/o paying "whatever it took." Frankly, I got carried away in the bidding and didn't want to be a "loser." I won it...and still became the "loser." Don't underestimate another bidder to be as just as stupid as you....or....find out that you were bid up by one of the "potted plants" working for the consignor or the house.
The 2nd time I did this was with a "moon money" mail bid on a seated coin. I ended up getting that coin for one increment under my max bid....and ultimately 3X what the coin was worth. Fortunately, I found a way to get bailed out of that fiasco. Lesson learned....pay what it's worth to you, and no more. If you can't see it, ensure a highly trusted pair of eyes does it for you. If not...don't bid.
If there is a coin that I really want, I put my bidder card in the air and keep it up until a) I win the lot or b) I feel that I am going to throw up, whichever comes first.
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Barry: You could always use John Jay Pittman's bidding strategy: Get a seat in the front row of the auction. When your lot(s) are being bid on, stand up, raise your bidder card high above your head and stay there until the auctioneer declares you the winner. I have read this account of his bidding numerous times. After awhile, when the other bidders saw him stand up doing his bidding thing, many just gave up their bidding and just let him have the coin at what ever the bid was at just prior to his jumping in.
Re: John Jay Pittman and his bidding strategy -- a great write-up by MidLifeCrisis...
link
If there is a coin that I really want, I put my bidder card in the air and keep it up until a) I win the lot or b) I feel that I am going to throw up, whichever comes first.
John Jay Pittman's bidding strategy
-or-
BigMoose'
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If there is only a single coin in an auction that I am interested in, then things are straightforward - decide how much I am willing to spend on the single coin.
If I find I am interested in multiple coins, this often presents a problem as I do have to operate within the confines of a budget. This was certainly an issue for me with respect to the Gardner sales. I typically liked 4-5 of his seated halves but never purchased more than two in a single auction.
It is important to be prepared to submit your highest bid and then walk away. As an example, I spent a considerable amount of time on the Cajun 1920-D Walker and was the under-bidder at what I thought was a very strong bid. But I had no idea that Dr. duckor was bidding on the coin. Had I known, I might have dropped out earlier.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I rank which coins are most important to me to acquire within my budget and then assign the highest price that I am willing to pay.
I'd suggest figuring two different prices for each coin. First, your best guess as to what the coin should sell for in a highly competitive auction. Second, the highest price you would actually pay if push comes to shove.
I'd also suggest that you be open to changing your bids on the fly, based on what is happening at the auction. Some would call that a lack of discipline. I call it a willingness to learn and adapt.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, in all seriousness, if there are way to many I narrow it down to auction records. If something comes along that I know I won't see again for years, I just buy it.
My Type Set & My Complete Proof Nickel Set!
No, I would never use the Pittman "Statue of Liberty" bidding stance as I have seen this backfire many times.
Best advice that hasn't been mentioned but you already know is don't bid early. Always bid at the live auction, if possible, and as late as possible, if you can't bid live.
Also, the rarer and more thinly traded an item is, the more varying prices can be justified. I don't mind paying multiples of the next highest buyer for something that I really want and might not ever see again.
Just keep hitting the Bid button until you win. Done.
Doesn't work well if you're bidding against a stubborn collector who saw the coin just as you did....and you both over-graded it. Works even worse if your "competition" is the potted plant in the corner of the room (owned by the auction house). I've had both happen to me. It was costly. It's one thing when a couple of major dealers are your under-bidder. It's entirely different when unseasoned or unknowledgeable collectors (or whales) are your moon-money under-bidders.
One is if you have a budget of lets say $1,000, and there are two coins you want.....they both appear back to back whether on the same day or the following day, you need to be careful not to be too aggressive or you might win both and end up going 2x or 3x your budget. On the other hand, you do not want to be too timid and underbid the first lot and lose only to be blown away on the second lot.
I am not stating anything new but sometimes a reminder is helpful.
Furthermore, bidding strong and vigorously on the internet phase of the bidding may drive everyone away but possibly only one or two other bidders (or none?) remain. Sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires.
The other approach is the "ebay bid at the last minute." Sometimes when no one is bidding, the other bidders lose interest and fail to place a bid because no one else is bidding. By dropping in a last second live in person or internet bid it could simply slip through or start a cascade of repetitive bidding.
Bidders sometimes want to see others bidding before they jump in.
Again, nothing new but just a reminder is helpful.
There are several things to remind others in auction bidding strategy.
One is if you have a budget of lets say $1,000, and there are two coins you want.....they both appear back to back whether on the same day or the following day, you need to be careful not to be too aggressive or you might win both and end up going 2x or 3x your budget. On the other hand, you do not want to be too timid and underbid the first lot and lose only to be blown away on the second lot.
I am not stating anything new but sometimes a reminder is helpful.
Furthermore, bidding strong and vigorously on the internet phase of the bidding may drive everyone away but possibly only one or two other bidders (or none?) remain. Sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires.
The other approach is the "ebay bid at the last minute." Sometimes when no one is bidding, the other bidders lose interest and fail to place a bid because no one else is bidding. By dropping in a last second live in person or internet bid it could simply slip through or start a cascade of repetitive bidding.
Bidders sometimes want to see others bidding before they jump in.
Again, nothing new but just a reminder is helpful.
Oreville- When it comes to coin collecting don't use your common sense accountant approach - just get both coins by holding your hand up longer than anyone else. - then later buy higher graded coins so you got more dups. LOL
All seriousness - great advise - I think the best advise is to have a strategy including 1- making sure you or a trusted advisor views the coin before the auction, 2- go into the auction room with a max price (and a cushion) written on paper, 3-prioritize your lots on relative of importance, 4- make usre you don't spend more than you budgeted in total and be independent from others (because they might not kow what they are doin).
thank you all and happy and healthy New Year!
Well, just Love coins, period.
My problem with this is that it always seems to work out that my 3rd or 4th choice always comes up before my top choice. Then I run into "Well, if I have to push on the first coin I won't have enough left in my budget to acquire my top choice. On the other hand, if I let the first coin get by me and then lose out on my top choices then I'm shut out of the auction all together."
Bottom line? Forget the budget.
I would never bid at a auction of a major collection where everyone is watching, seems like a fantastic way to lose money.
I also never pay a buyers fee.
The vast majority of the time, IMO, it seems like the winners of such auctions are way under water upon their win with of course a few exceptions.
I rank which coins are most important to me to acquire within my budget and then assign the highest price that I am willing to pay.
I'd suggest figuring two different prices for each coin. First, your best guess as to what the coin should sell for in a highly competitive auction. Second, the highest price you would actually pay if push comes to shove.
I'd also suggest that you be open to changing your bids on the fly, based on what is happening at the auction. Some would call that a lack of discipline. I call it a willingness to learn and adapt.
I love posts like this.
Latin American Collection
If there is a coin that I really want, I put my bidder card in the air and keep it up until a) I win the lot or b) I feel that I am going to throw up, whichever comes first.
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Vote #2 on this.
My own strategy involves a former ANA student named David. I try to look over his shoulder at lot viewing whenever he sits near me. . .
Bids start at 50% of Trends (our Redbook), then you add the auction's buyer's fee and then you add 13% tax and you have a recipe for paying a lot more than you would from a dealer at a coin show.
Granted, if you need that one hard to find coin for your collection, you sometimes have no choice and have to pony up the dough to find that elusive coin.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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I do not do auctions anymore.... fees becoming ridiculous.... Cheers, RickO
I'm with you ricko.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
We are working on a new auction strategy ...
Yeah! - during the auction - get your competition to another room and turn off the internet service to the auction room. LOL
We are working on a new auction strategy ...
Yeah! - during the auction - get your competition to another room and turn off the internet service to the auction room. LOL
I remember buying a superb Isabella from MrE late in the last millennium. He got it out of a Bowers auction in Beverly Hills.
"That's pretty cheap. How come?". "Bobby Hughes got stuck in the elevator for about 45 minutes" . . .
That's nice in theory, but for me the 17.5% coins and the 25% on political items has done a great deal to lessen my enjoyment of the hobbies. For the items I want, the bidders act like it's not even there.
If you are dealer who can bid on most anything and live without items that sell for too much, great! But for a collector who is looking for specific items the higher buyers' fees are a double edged sword. When you bid on something at auction, it drives up the prices. When you get ready to sell, it's 17.5 or 25 percent drag on the hammer price UNLESS you are lucky enough to have people who ignore the buyers' fee bidding on your consignment.
High buyers' fee suck, plain and simple. And if the major auciton houses get together and decide to raise the fees to 20% or more the way they did when it went from 15 to 17.5 percent, I might be done as a auction bidder.
That suggests to me that as an informed collector/former dealer that you seek out items (like all of us) that tend to be bargains at "published" price levels (pick your favorite guide). This also includes picking the sweet spot of the collector desired grade range and generally problem free coins. All of this appears to be as if the buyer's fee is being ignored when it's more than likely due to finding items that have insatiable collector demand. Anyone trying to be a key date coin key type coin from 2003-2008 continually ran into this. I tried to buy a very nice 1796 half from my local shop early in that period near the price guides (low $30's). I wasn't even close. A national dealer bought that at "wholesale" for $38K to flip it.
When tracking 1874-cc dimes over the years I could never buy one in choice, problem-free condition. They always went for 10-25% more than I "thought" they were worth. It was as if the buyer's fees and/or dealer markups were being ignored. The reality was that I was constantly under-estimating the insatiable demand for a coin that was continually leading the price guides. If you want to compete in the very sweet spot of collector demanded items, expect to pay premiums for them....or find a well-traveled dealer who can find these items before they make their way to public auction. If raising buyer's fees will reduce the competition further, I'm all for it. I won't mind bidding at auction where there are only 3 bidders in the room (me, Colonel Jessup, and Mr. Eureka).
I am not sure why auctions got so big and coin shows got so small compared to 20 or so years ago.
There are a number of factors.
Headed by Heritage the auction firms got really good at marketing.
The Internet created a whole class of collectors who are comfortable with buying coins based upon pictures, grading services and CAC approval. Some collectors don't want anything to do with coin shows, and they don't think that they need to see the coin in person before they buy.
Some dealers shot themselves in the foot with their buying practices. The stories about dealers ripping off the collector's widow are all too true. Yep, you made that "score," but down the line word got around, and it hurt you and those who ran legitimate operations.
Some collectors, who have material that is really special, figure they will get more for what they have via auction, which places their coins under nose of other high interest, wealthy collectors. Even after paying the commissions and having the hammer prices dampened by high buyers' fees, they figure they are better off.
Some collectors are totally overwhelmed by the large shows like FUN, which are now the only places you are likely to find some of the better material. They just look at the size of bourse floor, and, if they don't have a defined want list and buying strategy, are just unable to cope with three to six hundred dealers all in one place.
The most important thing is to see the coins in person or have a trusted rep (likely a dealer) do this for you. Everything else pales in importance. Don't even think about trusting images or lot descriptions in an auction catalog.
This. Then figure out what you are willing to pay for the coin. Back out the auction house commission. Place your bid and then forget about it. I'd rather not buy a coin than be buried in it. If I don't get said coin, eventually, another one just as nice will come along at my buying price.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I just put this out there for discussion by those who are sick of the buyers' fees on both sides of the transactions.
I have a max price I'll bid (with BP figured in) set before the auction, but when it comes down to the wire and I get outbid, I go beyond my set amount.
I need more discipline to not do that. I don't bid on unique top pops and I've already learned that if you miss out on a coin, another one will come along down the road.
Auction houses don't have to "get together to raise the fees". They follow each other because it's smart business. Same as the airlines do when pricing their tickets. It's called "tacit collusion".
FWIW, I would be surprised if we don't get to 20% sometime very soon.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
How is this done?
There was one dealer who said that he was going to base his new business on taking consignments from those who felt like they getting hammered by the high buyers' fees. It seems as if that strategy didn't work, or he got sidetracked with other stuff, some of rather inane and counterproductive to his business in my opinion. I think that there could be opportunity for dealers who would work on a commission basis if they had the customer base.
I just put this out there for discussion by those who are sick of the buyers' fees on both sides of the transactions.
BillJones- I agree with you 100%!!! I would like all the dealer that read this thread to read Bill's comments over and over so you guys get it. I feel many dealers pissed off collectors with their horrible buying and selling practices. These practices lead collectors to buy and sell more from auctions, I go to shows for a number of reasons including meeting several coin friends that I don't see through out the year and learn more about the series that I can't get at home. Also, these relationships are so valuable, Can't understand why a collector wouldn't want to capitalize on this aspect of collecting. Don't get me wrong, auctions are great and fun to participate in (win or loee) but shows or dealer's inventory are really where the majority for the coins should be bought and sold at fair prices.
Auction houses don't have to "get together to raise the fees". They follow each other because it's smart business. Same as the airlines do when pricing their tickets. It's called "tacit collusion".
FWIW, I would be surprised if we don't get to 20% sometime very soon.
Sorry Andy, but the apparently coordinated buyers' fee increase by Heritage and Stacks' was just too obvious.
ErrorsOnCoins stated that they do not pay a buyers fee.
How is this done?
I believe ErrorsOnCoins meant Seller's Fee (as the consignor). i.e They negotiate with the auction house to eliminate the Seller's Fee on their consignment. See roadrunner's comments in this thread.
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