Pretty good write up. I agree with the majority with the biggest difference on my list being Kevin Williams. Here is the list of current modern HOF eligible players with 5+ 1st Team All-Pro selections who are not in the HOF:
Zach Thomas
LOL..As you can see, VERY short list..Only 10 Senior pool guys with 5+ 1st Team All-Pros who arent in. And the every single one of those guys played between 1930s and 1960s, when All-Pro competition with between players on 8-14 teams vs. 32 teams... >>
When you get a chance could you identify those players? Off the top of my head I can list Patton, Howley, and Stanfel. >>
Lavvie Dilweg WR 6 1920s Jim Tyrer OT 6 AFL Johnny Robinson S 6 AFL Ox Emerson OG 5 1930s Riley Matheson OG 5 1940s Dick Stanfel OG 5 1950s Jimmy Patton S 5 1960s Del Shofner WR 5 1960s Chuck Howley LB 5 1960s Larry Grantham LB 5 AFL >>
I am sure there is a reason, or explanation, so, someone Please help me out here. Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Al "OX" Wistert were all 1st team ALL-PRO at least 5 X, Wistert Eight. Why are they not on this list. ???? Thanks.
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
Pretty good write up. I agree with the majority with the biggest difference on my list being Kevin Williams. Here is the list of current modern HOF eligible players with 5+ 1st Team All-Pro selections who are not in the HOF:
Zach Thomas
LOL..As you can see, VERY short list..Only 10 Senior pool guys with 5+ 1st Team All-Pros who arent in. And the every single one of those guys played between 1930s and 1960s, when All-Pro competition with between players on 8-14 teams vs. 32 teams... >>
When you get a chance could you identify those players? Off the top of my head I can list Patton, Howley, and Stanfel. >>
Lavvie Dilweg WR 6 1920s Jim Tyrer OT 6 AFL Johnny Robinson S 6 AFL Ox Emerson OG 5 1930s Riley Matheson OG 5 1940s Dick Stanfel OG 5 1950s Jimmy Patton S 5 1960s Del Shofner WR 5 1960s Chuck Howley LB 5 1960s Larry Grantham LB 5 AFL >>
I am sure there is a reason, or explanation, so, someone Please help me out here. Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Al "OX" Wistert were all 1st team ALL-PRO at least 5 X, Wistert Eight. Why are they not on this list. ???? Thanks. >>
Kramer-You are correct, oversight on my part, probably because it is still hard to believe he is not a HOFer...lol Gradishar- 2 Time 1st Team All-Pro (1977-1978) Wistert- 4 time (1944-1947)
Hope this helps. Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Hard to believe this thread was started 8 1/2 years ago.. Seems like only yesterday....
Hi Jason! >>
The thread where we created the set was 12 years ago.....Crazy
WE ARE STILL HERE! Good to see you still posting Dave.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Can someone remind me (Jason maybe) why we chose to exclude Steve Owen and George Halas from the HOF RC set. Both have cards in the 52 Bowman set but for some reason, we chose to exclude them.
Both were chosen for the all 1920's decade players and both have their position listed on the HOF website as if there were inducted as a player and coach.
Jay, Where does it mention what they are inducted as?
The HOF BIO for Halas lists Founder, Owner, Coach under his name but for Owen, it lists coach and tackle. According to that, I would assume Owen is in also as a player?
<< <i>Jay, Where does it mention what they are inducted as?
The HOF BIO for Halas lists Founder, Owner, Coach under his name but for Owen, it lists coach and tackle. According to that, I would assume Owen is in also as a player? >>
He's listed as a Coach and Lineman for position on the induction list: Link
<< <i>He's listed as a Coach and Lineman for position on the induction list: Link >>
Likewise, Halas is listed under both Coaches and Ends, WRs and TEs.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
For those who do not know me, my name is Vince Steele and I have been collecting and participating in this set and forum for at least 12 years. I always thought I would reach 100% and my son would enjoy the collecting experience with me. However, my son only collects Xbox games and I recently was on the receiving end of a scalpel and several doctor bills. I have made the tough decision to sell my NFL HOF RCs and assorted other NFL RCs (I am going to try to keep all my Bears cards though). This will not be a fire sale. I subscribe to VCP so that is what I will be utilizing to compare offers to. I thought I would list the cards here for the collectors of the set to have first dibs. I always appreciated when a fellow collector would do the same. I will add a link to my NFL HOF RC set as the majority of the cards fall into this set and I also added all to a showcase. You can see photos of the cards from the links below. VJS4 NFL HOF RCs VJS4 Showcase
If you have serious interest in any of the available cards we can discuss terms via PM or email. As a general rule I accept PP (friends/family option) if you feel more comfortable with the purchase option I will ask for an additional 3%. For shipping I generally use USPS with tracking/insurance, but other options are available at your request. I would like to try to charge as close to exact shipping as I can so I won’t list a shipping price until purchase price is agreed on. Again, I would like to thank everyone who has helped me put together my set. Vince Steele email me here
Card# Description Grade 1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 1 DUTCH CLARK 3 11 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 11 TURK EDWARDS 4 61 1948 BOWMAN 61 ALEX WOJCIECHOWICZ 5 63 1948 BOWMAN 63 PETE PIHOS 5 4 1948 LEAF 4 DOAK WALKER 5 22 1948 LEAF 22 STEVE VAN BUREN GREEN JERSEY, YELLOW SOCK 4 26 1948 LEAF 26 BOB WATERFIELD BLACK NAME ON FRONT 4 29 1948 LEAF 29 CHARLEY TRIPPI 4 36 1948 LEAF 36 BILL DUDLEY 4 5 1950 BOWMAN 5 Y.A. TITTLE 5 6 1950 BOWMAN 6 LOU GROZA 6 9 1950 BOWMAN 9 TONY CANADEO 5 35 1950 BOWMAN 35 JOE PERRY 5 43 1950 BOWMAN 43 MARION MOTLEY 6 51 1950 BOWMAN 51 TOM FEARS 7 52 1950 BOWMAN 52 ELROY HIRSCH 6 78 1950 BOWMAN 78 DANTE LAVELLI 7 4 1951 BOWMAN 4 NORM VAN BROCKLIN 6 21 1951 BOWMAN 21 ARNIE WEINMEISTER 5 62 1951 BOWMAN 62 LOU CREEKMUR 5 91 1951 BOWMAN 91 EMLEN TUNNELL 5 96 1951 BOWMAN 96 ERNIE STAUTNER 5 23 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 23 GINO MARCHETTI 4 29 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 29 HUGH McELHENNY 5 57 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 57 WAYNE MILLNER 5 85 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 85 ANDY ROBUSTELLI 5 129 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 129 JACK CHRISTIANSEN 6 140 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 140 YALE LARY 5 16 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 16 FRANK GIFFORD 5 46 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 46 ART DONOVAN 4 127 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 127 OLLIE MATSON 5 2 1955 BOWMAN 2 MIKE McCORMACK 7 14 1955 BOWMAN 14 LEN FORD 7 42 1955 BOWMAN 42 JOHN H. JOHNSON 7 70 1955 BOWMAN 70 JIM RINGO 6 81 1955 BOWMAN 81 BILLY WILSON 5 101 1955 BOWMAN 101 BOB ST. CLAIR 6 119 1955 BOWMAN 119 FRANK GATSKI 6 28 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 28 MEL HEIN 7 56 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 56 ERNIE NEVERS 6 64 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 64 BENNY FRIEDMAN 6 66 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 66 BRUISER KINARD 7 84 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 84 ACE PARKER 7 97 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 97 DON HUTSON 6 100 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 100 FATS HENRY 6 19 1956 TOPPS 19 BILL HOWTON 6 41 1956 TOPPS 41 ROOSEVELT BROWN 7 44 1956 TOPPS 44 JOE SCHMIDT 7 60 1956 TOPPS 60 LENNY MOORE 7 15 1957 TOPPS 15 JACK BUTLER 7 23 1957 TOPPS 23 DON CHANDLER 8OC 85 1957 TOPPS 85 DICK LANE 7 94 1957 TOPPS 94 RAYMOND BERRY 6 124 1957 TOPPS 124 TOMMY McDONALD 6 138 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHNNY UNITAS 7 62 1958 TOPPS 62 JIM BROWN 6 90 1958 TOPPS 90 SONNY JURGENSEN 7 51 1959 TOPPS 51 SAM HUFF 8 116 1959 TOPPS 116 JERRY KRAMER 8 117 1959 TOPPS 117 KING HILL 7 132 1959 TOPPS 132 JIM PARKER 7 140 1959 TOPPS 140 BOBBY MITCHELL 7 155 1959 TOPPS 155 JIM TAYLOR 7 118 1960 FLEER 118 RON MIX 7 56 1960 TOPPS 56 FOREST GREGG 7 197 1961 FLEER 197 JIM OTTO 7 215 1961 FLEER 215 DON MAYNARD 8 45 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN 7 16 1962 FLEER 16 BILLY SHAW 7 10 1963 FLEER 10 NICK BUONICONTI 6 72 1963 FLEER 72 LANCE ALWORTH 6 44 1963 TOPPS 44 DAVE JONES 7 82 1963 TOPPS 82 BOB LILLY 7 95 1963 TOPPS 95 WILLIE WOOD 7 96 1963 TOPPS 96 RAY NITSCHKE 7 155 1963 TOPPS 155 LARRY WILSON 7 3 1964 PHILADELPHIA 3 JOHN MACKEY 7 71 1964 PHILADELPHIA 71 HERB ADDERLY 8 72 1964 PHILADELPHIA 72 WILLIE DAVIS 8 91 1964 PHILADELPHIA 91 MERLIN OLSEN 8 161 1964 PHILADELPHIA 161 JIM JOHNSON 6 90 1964 TOPPS 90 BOBBY BELL 7 92 1964 TOPPS 92 BUCK BUCHANAN 8 93 1964 TOPPS 93 ED BUDDE 7 41 1965 PHILADELPHIA 41 PAUL WARFIELD 7 53 1965 PHILADELPHIA 53 MEL RENFRO 7 64 1965 PHILADELPHIA 64 DICK LeBEAU 8 105 1965 PHILADELPHIA 105 CARL ELLER 8 156 1965 PHILADELPHIA 156 JIM BAKKEN 6 189 1965 PHILADELPHIA 189 PAUL KRAUSE 7 195 1965 PHILADELPHIA 195 CHARLEY TAYLOR 7 46 1965 TOPPS 46 WILLIE BROWN 7 122 1965 TOPPS 122 JOE NAMATH 6 133 1965 TOPPS 133 FRED BILETNIKOFF 6 45 1966 PHILADELPHIA 45 GENE HICKERSON 7 58 1966 PHILADELPHIA 58 BOB HAYES 6 134 1966 PHILADELPHIA 134 BOB BROWN 6 43 1967 PHILADELPHIA 43 LEROY KELLY 6 80 1967 PHILADELPHIA 80 DAVE ROBINSON 7 165 1967 PHILADELPHIA 165 JACKIE SMITH 6 178 1967 PHILADELPHIA 178 DAVE WILCOX 7 183 1967 PHILADELPHIA 183 CHRIS HANBURGER 7 173 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE 7 196 1968 TOPPS 196 BOB GRIESE 7 120 1969 TOPPS 120 LARRY CSONKA 7 25 1970 TOPPS 25 JAN STENERUD 8.5 43 1970 TOPPS 43 ELVIN BETHEA 7.5 59 1970 TOPPS 59 ALAN PAGE 8 75 1970 TOPPS 75 LEM BARNEY 8 90 1970 TOPPS 90 O.J. SIMPSON 7 97 1970 TOPPS 97 DICK POST 7.5 151 1970 TOPPS 151 TOM MACK 8 156 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY 7 3 1971 TOPPS 3 M. SCHOTTENHEIMER 7 113 1971 TOPPS 113 KEN HOUSTON 7 114 1971 TOPPS 114 WILLIE LANIER 7 156 1971 TOPPS 156 TERRY BRADSHAW 7.5 188 1971 TOPPS 188 ROGER WEHRLI 7 210 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS 7 211 1971 TOPPS 211 JAKE SCOTT 8 245 1971 TOPPS 245 JOE GREENE 8 13 1972 TOPPS 13 JOHN RIGGINS 7 93 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS 7 101 1972 TOPPS 101 L.C. GREENWOOD 8 104 1972 TOPPS 104 RON YARY 7 157 1972 TOPPS 157 EMMITT THOMAS 7 186 1972 TOPPS 186 EUGENE UPSHAW 7 200 1972 TOPPS 200 ROGER STAUBACH 8OC 240 1972 TOPPS 240 LARRY LITTLE 8 244 1972 TOPPS 244 CHARLIE JOINER 7 316 1972 TOPPS 316 RAYFIELD WRIGHT 8.5 56 1973 TOPPS 56 LYDELL MITCHELL 8 77 1973 TOPPS 77 ART SHELL 8 89 1973 TOPPS 89 FRANCO HARRIS 7 115 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM 7 167 1973 TOPPS 167 CURLEY CULP 7 322 1973 TOPPS 322 DAN DIERDORF 8 341 1973 TOPPS 341 JIM LANGER 8 343 1973 TOPPS 343 JACK YOUNGBLOOD 8 367 1973 TOPPS 367 BOB KUECHENBERG 8 517 1973 TOPPS 517 REGGIE RUCKER 8 183 1974 TOPPS 183 JOE DeLAMIELLEURE 8 383 1974 TOPPS 383 JOHN HANNAH 8 12 1975 TOPPS 12 MEL BLOUNT 8 282 1975 TOPPS 282 LYNN SWANN 8 367 1975 TOPPS 367 DAN FOUTS 8 490 1975 TOPPS 490 CLIFF HARRIS 8 158 1976 TOPPS 158 RANDY WHITE 8 220 1976 TOPPS 220 JACK LAMBERT 8 223 1976 TOPPS 223 BILLY JOHNSON 7.5 29 1977 TOPPS 29 LEROY SELMON 8 50 1977 TOPPS 50 MIKE HAYNES ALL-PRO 8 99 1977 TOPPS 99 MIKE WEBSTER 8 146 1977 TOPPS 146 HARRY CARSON 8 177 1977 TOPPS 177 STEVE LARGENT 8 380 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO 7 217 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN 8 217 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN 5 315 1978 TOPPS 315 TONY DORSETT 8 320 1978 TOPPS 320 JOHN STALLWORTH 8 361 1978 TOPPS 361 STANLEY MORGAN 8 404 1978 TOPPS 404 HERMAN EDWARDS 9 308 1979 TOPPS 308 OZZIE NEWSOME 8 310 1979 TOPPS 310 JAMES LOFTON 8 390 1979 TOPPS 390 EARL CAMPBELL 8 411 1979 TOPPS 411 DONNIE SHELL 8 423 1980 TOPPS 423 NOLAN CROMWELL 8 150 1981 TOPPS 150 KELLEN WINSLOW 9 194 1981 TOPPS 194 ART MONK 8 216 1981 TOPPS 216 JOE MONTANA 8 51 1982 TOPPS 51 ANTHONY MUNOZ ALL-PRO 9 434 1982 TOPPS 434 LAWRENCE TAYLOR ALL-PRO 8 486 1982 TOPPS 486 RONNIE LOTT ALL-PRO 8 294 1983 TOPPS 294 MARCUS ALLEN 9 356 1983 TOPPS 356 GARY ANDERSON 9 63 1984 TOPPS 63 JOHN ELWAY 8 111 1984 TOPPS 111 HOWIE LONG 8 123 1984 TOPPS 123 DAN MARINO 8 129 1984 TOPPS 129 DWIGHT STEPHENSON 8 143 1984 TOPPS 143 ANDRE TIPPETT 9 280 1984 TOPPS 280 ERIC DICKERSON 9 286 1984 TOPPS 286 JACKIE SLATER 9 300 1984 TOPPS 300 MORTEN ANDERSEN 9 303 1984 TOPPS 303 RICKEY JACKSON 8 303 1984 TOPPS 303 RICKEY JACKSON 8 380 1984 TOPPS 380 DARRELL GREEN 9 381 1984 TOPPS 381 RUSS GRIMM 9 36 1984 TOPPS USFL 36 JIM KELLY 8 52 1984 TOPPS USFL 52 STEVE YOUNG 8 58 1984 TOPPS USFL 58 REGGIE WHITE 8 24 1985 TOPPS 24 RICHARD DENT ALL PRO 7 251 1985 TOPPS 251 WARREN MOON 8 253 1985 TOPPS 253 MIKE MUNCHAK 8 161 1986 TOPPS 161 JERRY RICE 8 275 1986 TOPPS 275 REGGIE WHITE 8 389 1986 TOPPS 389 BRUCE SMITH 9 207 1987 TOPPS 207 GARY ZIMMERMAN 8 157 1988 TOPPS 157 CHRIS DOLEMAN 8.5 300 1988 TOPPS 300 KEVIN GREENE 9 235 1989 PRO SET 235 RANDALL McDANIEL 10 18 1989 SCORE 18 MICHAEL IRVIN 9 72 1989 SCORE 72 CRIS CARTER 9 78 1989 SCORE 78 ROD WOODSON 9 86 1989 SCORE 86 TIM BROWN 9 109 1989 SCORE 109 BRUCE MATTHEWS 9 211 1989 SCORE 211 THURMAN THOMAS 9 246 1989 SCORE 246 DEION SANDERS 9 254 1989 SCORE 254 STEVE WISNIEWSKI 9 257 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS 9 258 1989 SCORE 258 DERRICK THOMAS 9 270 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN 9 408S 1989 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 408S DERMONTTI DAWSON 9 38 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 38 JUNIOR SEAU 9OC 38 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 38 JUNIOR SEAU 9 39 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 39 CORTEZ KENNEDY 9 46 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 46 SHANNON SHARPE 9 U-81 1990 FLEER UPDATE U-81 RICHMOND WEBB 9 65T 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 65T JUNIOR SEAU 9 101T 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH 9 835 1991 PRO SET 835 JOHN RANDLE 9 85T 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 85T ERIK WILLIAMS 10 94T 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 94T AENEAS WILLIAMS 10 60 1991 STADIUM CLUB 60 RICKY WATTERS 9 94 1991 STADIUM CLUB 94 BRETT FARVE 9 421 1993 BOWMAN 421 WILLIE ROAF FOIL 9 6 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL 8 123 1993 SP 123 WILL SHIELDS 9 259 1993 SP 259 JOHN LYNCH 9 331 1993 ULTRA 331 MICHAEL STRAHAN 9 68 1994 BOWMAN 68 ISAAC BRUCE 9 300 1994 PLAYOFF 300 LARRY ALLEN 9 3 1994 SP 3 MARSHALL FAULK FOIL 9 3 1995 SP 3 STEVE McNAIR FOIL 8 18 1995 SP 18 CURTIS MARTIN FOIL 9 99 1995 SP 99 WARREN SAPP 9 130 1995 SP 130 TERRELL DAVIS 9 174 1995 SP 174 TY LAW 9 162 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 162 TEDY BRUSCHI 9 164 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 164 RAY LEWIS 9 18 1996 SP 18 MARVIN HARRISON 9 91 1996 SP 91 ZACH THOMAS 8 91 1996 SP 91 ZACH THOMAS 9 162 1996 SP 162 LAWYER MILLOY 8.5 11 1997 SP AUTHENTIC 11 TONY GONZALEZ 9 96 1999 SP AUTHENTIC 96 TORRY HOLT 9 185 2001 PACIFIC CROWN ROYALE 185 STEVE HUTCHINSON 8 362 2002 UPPER DECK XL 362 ALAN FANECA 8 132 2003 LEAF R & S 132 ANTONIO GATES 10 176 2004 TOPPS CHROME 176 DeANGELO HALL 9 215 2004 TOPPS CHROME 215 LARRY FITZGERALD 9 227 2004 TOPPS CHROME 227 CHRIS COOLEY 8 176 2006 TOPPS CHROME 176 HALOTI NGATA 9 TC193 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC193 DOMINIQUE RODGERS-CROMARTIE 9 TC222 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC222 JAKE LONG 9 TC127 2009 TOPPS CHROME TC127 BRIAN ORAKPO 9 TC166 2009 TOPPS CHROME TC166 REY MAUALUGA 9 C160 2010 TOPPS CHROME C160 NDAMUKONG SUH 9
Sorry to hear that you're selling off, Vince. Best of luck with your sales.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Can someone remind me (Jason maybe) why we chose to exclude Steve Owen and George Halas from the HOF RC set. Both have cards in the 52 Bowman set but for some reason, we chose to exclude them.
Both were chosen for the all 1920's decade players and both have their position listed on the HOF website as if there were inducted as a player and coach.
We are having a discussion on NET 54
Thanks
Dave >>
Let them know it is because we used common sense..I know, I know, hard to believe right? But it was something that really set what we did here on the message board and how we comprised the set that differed from many of the sets and message boards out there...If someone TRULY believes that Halas and/or Owen would have been inducted in the HOF for what they did on the field, they obviously don't know much about football...Or about how the HOF works...Have the ghost of Steve Owen call up the ghost of Jim McMillien and explain why he was a HOF PLAYER above and beyond McMillian...Have Halas talk to Lavvie Dilweg..Let him know that he was elected as a PLAYER...Just takes a little common sense and maybe some reading to understand why we as a group decided to leave those 2 guys off the HOF PLAYERS set.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I certainly don't hope to have my common sense or knowledge of football questioned for asking for more details to answer the question which was posed, but.....
Help me understand why it was decided to exclude players who were elected to the HOF from the HOF RC set.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Hey Greg. There was some confusion as to whether or not Halas and Owen were elected both as coaches and players. As it turns out, they both got in as coaches only.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
But I think the question... at least what I was asking... Is how do we know these guys were selected as only coaches? Is it documented somewhere that they were enshrined strictly on their coaching career?
<< <i>If someone TRULY believes that Halas and/or Owen would have been inducted in the HOF for what they did on the field, they obviously don't know much about football >>
Common sense?? I'll be the first to admit that I guess I don't know much about football since I don't have any idea what kind of players these guys were. Unfortunately, there is no footage available from the 20s to show me why they are not HOF caliber players. Maybe I need to read up a little.. LOL....
For Halas, 105 games played (1920-28) - Additional Career Statistics: Rushing: 1 TD; Receiving: 6 TDs; Interceptions: 1 TD; Fumble Recoveries for TD: 2
Not exactly HOF calibur player stats.
From his HOF page: Class of 1963 Founder, Owner, Coach (Illinois) 1920-1983 Decatur/Chicago Staleys, Chicago Bears George Stanley Halas. . .Truly "Mr. Everything" of pro football. . . Founded Decatur Staleys, attended league organizational meeting in 1920. . .Only person associated with NFL throughout first 50 years. . . Coached Bears for 40 seasons and six NFL titles. . . Record mark of 324 coaching wins stood for nearly three decades. . .Recorded many "firsts" in pro coaching, administration. . .Also played end for nine seasons . . . Born February 2, 1895, in Chicago. . .Died October 31, 1983, at age of 88.
Bolds are mine, playing career was an afterthought in the HOF writeup.
ETA: For Owen, it's more of a judgement call, but he doesn't get in on his playing stats alone.
Did John Madden's post coaching career play a part in his induction? How about Dick LeBeau's coaching? Guys, the HOF is a vote conducted by humans, there are no cut and dries, only shades of gray..If you want to add coaches to the HOF PLAYER set because they happened to play in the NFL at some point in time, even with moderate level of success, then by all means send the request to PSA...No doubt they will likely send out a poll and if the majority wants to add it, go for it...lol
The question I was asked was why we excluded Halas and Owen (as well as a few others...Tom Landry an example) from the HOF Rookie PLAYERS set when we created it here on the message board..Those of us who originally put the set together here discussed all of these issues, and common sense thinking was that since we ALREADY had a set that included everyone, players, coaches, contributers, that we should keep the PLAYERS set exclusive to guys inducted PRIMARILY for PLAYING...Simple as that guys, it wasn't rocket science...If you want to add Landry and Halas and whoever else and call them HOF Players, send the request and good luck to you. But regardless of the outcome, none of those guys are in the HOF PRIMARILY for playing or what they did on the field...That won't change no matter how you vote..Go educate yourselves if you believe otherwise. If the film is lacking, as Dave suggested, go read...PLENTY of material out there on the subject. All the addition will do is ruin the HOF PLAYERS set like many of the other sets were ruined a few years back by what I can only call ill-informed fanboys...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Don't take my question as me wanting to request they be added to the set. Heck, I sold off my set and am not even collecting anymore.
I was asking to see if the HOF differentiated the category that each person was enshrined. It sounds like the answer is NO. To me, it seems like the HOF website is inconsistent. They have Halas and Owen listed by position on the Players page, but Jim Finks played in the league but there is not even a mention of it in his BIO.
Yes they are very inconsistent.That being said, much of my second response was to others who have posted since the first one. Wasn't necessarily directed to you Dave, but your initial question is what had me responding in the first place...
I want to make sure everyone understand my position on why we didnt include those guys (among some others)...We, no one, has any idea what percentage of their specific playing time on the field led to their HOF inductions. Same as a few other cases I mentioned above...Madden, LeBeau, etc...When guys are elected and voted in, it is not a cut and dry process. Maybe Halas was elected as 50% contributer, 30% coach and 20% player? Who knows....
What we DO know, by reading, watching, using common sense on his life and career (along with Owen, Landry, Shula, Finks, etc) is that they were NOT Primarily elected as a PLAYER. They would NOT have been elected to the HOF solely for what they did on the field...That was the reasoning...To keep the set exclusively deserving PLAYERS and not just rehashing the Player/Coach/Admin set that was already in the Registry at the time...Seems to have worked as the PLAYER set you and I both helped create has become and remains one of the hotter sets on the football Registry.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ok guys.....at the risk of getting laughed out of the room.....I would like to hear your thoughts on.... (dun ta dada) Tony Romo. Does he have a shot?.....what card would I need to grab......and which one of you fine gents wants to sell me a 10. Thanks
The question was simple and only the answer needed common sense. Why aren't Halas and Owens in the players set? Simply because they were enshrined as coaches and/or administrators.
The pontification about using common sense to see that they couldn't have been enshrined as players was just that - pontification.
I've got my own issues with the cards that have been selected as representing a particular player. Really easy until the late 80's since there often was only 1 issue but after that it's a minefield.
Then you add multiple cards from the same company multiplied by the multiple companies and then it's a freak show.
That's why I cringe when someone claims common sense in regard to this set. Wouldn't that be any mainstream distribution card from the player's RC year should be eligible? And then that the base card PLUS any short printed refractors, superfractors, xfractors and supercalafragilisticexpyalodociusfractors count as well? That would create a more inclusive set to me.
Collecting HOF RC's in hockey, baseball, football and basketball. A fool's errand some have said.
Two different arguments. Common sense does apply in determining whether an inductee was enshrined as a player. A look at his career will clearly give you the answer. Choosing which card to use as part of the registry is subjective, and is prone to be the result of whoever argued most vehemently for its inclusion.
<< <i>Ok guys.....at the risk of getting laughed out of the room.....I would like to hear your thoughts on.... (dun ta dada) Tony Romo. Does he have a shot?.....what card would I need to grab......and which one of you fine gents wants to sell me a 10. Thanks >>
He has some work to do for sure, but I think Romo at least has a shot. His 2003 Bowman Chrome rookie is used in the All-Time Cowboys set, so I would imagine that that's the card that would be used for the HOF RCs set.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I always thought any RC should be eligible. Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder to implement for sure. I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts Stabler finished at (194/222).
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Two different arguments. Common sense does apply in determining whether an inductee was enshrined as a player. A look at his career will clearly give you the answer. Choosing which card to use as part of the registry is subjective, and is prone to be the result of whoever argued most vehemently for its inclusion. >>
Perfectly stated and 1000% true.
This is why we attempted to factor in the card selection to be the "most valuable/popular" BASE card of the player. It seems however that has gone out the window at least within the Key Card sets in recent years...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I always thought any RC should be eligible. Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder to implement for sure. I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts Stabler finished at (194/222). >>
That set already existed..At the time the HOF Rookie Player set was created, there was a HOF Player set where you could use any card...Creating a set with a specific card of each player made it easier and more interesting to chase and collect. I base that on the sheer number of collectors who decided to try and complete the set we created vs. the all inclusive, any card set that also resides on the Registry.
Stabler should have been in long ago, as a modern finalist. Stats of QBs in that era are nearly meaningless simply because of the style of gameplay and ruleset they played under then. The fact that he helped put so so many others Raiders offensive players into the HOF, IMO, helps his case. Now they only need to get Ken Anderson in from the Seniors pool and they will be all set at QB! lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"the all inclusive, any card set that also resides on the Registry."
I hate those sets and don't do them. I really could care less where I stand on set rankings, however when a guy can get #1 set by including a 1990 fleer psa 10 emmitt Smith vs. a 1990 score supplement that's not an equal collecting basis. Not for me !!!!!!
Jason is absolutely right about comparing stats across era's. This is especially true for QB's.
I remember Stabler coming into the game for the very first time. His personality and style changed the Raiders much like having Namath on the Jets.
Any of you guys remember the 'superstars competitions' ? They had a moving net (maybe 2 1/2 feet in diameter) moving across the field. The QB tried to throw the FB into it. Stabler blew the competition away he was so accurate. Kinda like O J's 100 yard dash...... Cliff Harris was pretty darn good in those events.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Ok guys.....at the risk of getting laughed out of the room.....I would like to hear your thoughts on.... (dun ta dada) Tony Romo. Does he have a shot?.....what card would I need to grab......and which one of you fine gents wants to sell me a 10. Thanks >>
He has some work to do for sure, but I think Romo at least has a shot. His 2003 Bowman Chrome rookie is used in the All-Time Cowboys set, so I would imagine that that's the card that would be used for the HOF RCs set. >>
Yep 2003 Bowman Chrome. His injury this year really hurts him but if he can pull off a super bowl before he retires, I think he will get in
<< <i>I always thought any RC should be eligible. Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder to implement for sure. I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts Stabler finished at (194/222). >>
That set already existed..At the time the HOF Rookie Player set was created, there was a HOF Player set where you could use any card...Creating a set with a specific card of each player made it easier and more interesting to chase and collect. I base that on the sheer number of collectors who decided to try and complete the set we created vs. the all inclusive, any card set that also resides on the Registry.
Stabler should have been in long ago, as a modern finalist. Stats of QBs in that era are nearly meaningless simply because of the style of gameplay and ruleset they played under then. The fact that he helped put so so many others Raiders offensive players into the HOF, IMO, helps his case. Now they only need to get Ken Anderson in from the Seniors pool and they will be all set at QB! lol >>
Thats kind of what I was thinking as well. The Bowman Chrome seems to be the most likely choice to me as well, but just thought I'd get other opinions as well before making a purchase of any kind. Thanks for the input.
Wow, talk about a blast from the past! PM sent, Gabbs.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Thoughts on adding 2003 topps Chrome Terrell Suggs to the Future HOF RC - Modern group? Ed Reed and Ray Lewis are locks for HOF. Suggs was the other great player on one of the best defenses in history. I thought he was already in the set.
Suggs has been very good and sometimes great throughout his career, but I think he falls short of the HOF. He might have been able to work himself into more consideration with a dominant season this year, but the injury killed that. Just my dos centavos.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Comments
Hi Jason!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ranking 30 ringless 30-somethings for the HOF >>
Pretty good write up. I agree with the majority with the biggest difference on my list being Kevin Williams. Here is the list of current modern HOF eligible players with 5+ 1st Team All-Pro selections who are not in the HOF:
Zach Thomas
LOL..As you can see, VERY short list..Only 10 Senior pool guys with 5+ 1st Team All-Pros who arent in. And the every single one of those guys played between 1930s and 1960s, when All-Pro competition with between players on 8-14 teams vs. 32 teams... >>
When you get a chance could you identify those players? Off the top of my head I can list Patton, Howley, and Stanfel. >>
Lavvie Dilweg WR 6 1920s
Jim Tyrer OT 6 AFL
Johnny Robinson S 6 AFL
Ox Emerson OG 5 1930s
Riley Matheson OG 5 1940s
Dick Stanfel OG 5 1950s
Jimmy Patton S 5 1960s
Del Shofner WR 5 1960s
Chuck Howley LB 5 1960s
Larry Grantham LB 5 AFL >>
I am sure there is a reason, or explanation, so, someone Please help me out here. Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Al "OX" Wistert were all 1st team ALL-PRO at least 5 X, Wistert Eight. Why are they not on this list. ????
Thanks.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ranking 30 ringless 30-somethings for the HOF >>
Pretty good write up. I agree with the majority with the biggest difference on my list being Kevin Williams. Here is the list of current modern HOF eligible players with 5+ 1st Team All-Pro selections who are not in the HOF:
Zach Thomas
LOL..As you can see, VERY short list..Only 10 Senior pool guys with 5+ 1st Team All-Pros who arent in. And the every single one of those guys played between 1930s and 1960s, when All-Pro competition with between players on 8-14 teams vs. 32 teams... >>
When you get a chance could you identify those players? Off the top of my head I can list Patton, Howley, and Stanfel. >>
Lavvie Dilweg WR 6 1920s
Jim Tyrer OT 6 AFL
Johnny Robinson S 6 AFL
Ox Emerson OG 5 1930s
Riley Matheson OG 5 1940s
Dick Stanfel OG 5 1950s
Jimmy Patton S 5 1960s
Del Shofner WR 5 1960s
Chuck Howley LB 5 1960s
Larry Grantham LB 5 AFL >>
I am sure there is a reason, or explanation, so, someone Please help me out here. Jerry Kramer, Randy Gradishar, and Al "OX" Wistert were all 1st team ALL-PRO at least 5 X, Wistert Eight. Why are they not on this list. ????
Thanks. >>
Kramer-You are correct, oversight on my part, probably because it is still hard to believe he is not a HOFer...lol
Gradishar- 2 Time 1st Team All-Pro (1977-1978)
Wistert- 4 time (1944-1947)
Hope this helps.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Hard to believe this thread was started 8 1/2 years ago.. Seems like only yesterday....
Hi Jason! >>
The thread where we created the set was 12 years ago.....Crazy
WE ARE STILL HERE! Good to see you still posting Dave.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Both solid choices. Hope they both make the cut
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
wow
If Stabler does make it.... it will be a slightly sad moment for me (happy as a Raiders fan)
as he just passed and would not be around to appreciate the honor.
Still feel bad Ron Santo missed his HOF call when he was alive.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Theismann is a college football hall of famer, but he's not in the pro football hof.
got to caddy for him in 93 during the michael jordan celebrity challenge.
was the year his dad was shot. extremely sad, but the tourney went on...
gotta herb score rookie in today as well for similar reasons.
or, did not see the word nfl in the title either, but hey.
either way.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Both were chosen for the all 1920's decade players and both have their position listed on the HOF website as if there were inducted as a player and coach.
We are having a discussion on NET 54
Thanks
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Both are in as coaches not players
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
The HOF BIO for Halas lists Founder, Owner, Coach under his name but for Owen, it lists coach and tackle. According to that, I would assume Owen is in also as a player?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jay, Where does it mention what they are inducted as?
The HOF BIO for Halas lists Founder, Owner, Coach under his name but for Owen, it lists coach and tackle. According to that, I would assume Owen is in also as a player? >>
He's listed as a Coach and Lineman for position on the induction list: Link
<< <i>He's listed as a Coach and Lineman for position on the induction list: Link >>
Likewise, Halas is listed under both Coaches and Ends, WRs and TEs.
I have made the tough decision to sell my NFL HOF RCs and assorted other NFL RCs (I am going to try to keep all my Bears cards though). This will not be a fire sale. I subscribe to VCP so that is what I will be utilizing to compare offers to. I thought I would list the cards here for the collectors of the set to have first dibs. I always appreciated when a fellow collector would do the same. I will add a link to my NFL HOF RC set as the majority of the cards fall into this set and I also added all to a showcase. You can see photos of the cards from the links below.
VJS4 NFL HOF RCs
VJS4 Showcase
If you have serious interest in any of the available cards we can discuss terms via PM or email. As a general rule I accept PP (friends/family option) if you feel more comfortable with the purchase option I will ask for an additional 3%. For shipping I generally use USPS with tracking/insurance, but other options are available at your request. I would like to try to charge as close to exact shipping as I can so I won’t list a shipping price until purchase price is agreed on.
Again, I would like to thank everyone who has helped me put together my set.
Vince Steele
email me here
Card# Description Grade
1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 1 DUTCH CLARK 3
11 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 11 TURK EDWARDS 4
61 1948 BOWMAN 61 ALEX WOJCIECHOWICZ 5
63 1948 BOWMAN 63 PETE PIHOS 5
4 1948 LEAF 4 DOAK WALKER 5
22 1948 LEAF 22 STEVE VAN BUREN GREEN JERSEY, YELLOW SOCK 4
26 1948 LEAF 26 BOB WATERFIELD BLACK NAME ON FRONT 4
29 1948 LEAF 29 CHARLEY TRIPPI 4
36 1948 LEAF 36 BILL DUDLEY 4
5 1950 BOWMAN 5 Y.A. TITTLE 5
6 1950 BOWMAN 6 LOU GROZA 6
9 1950 BOWMAN 9 TONY CANADEO 5
35 1950 BOWMAN 35 JOE PERRY 5
43 1950 BOWMAN 43 MARION MOTLEY 6
51 1950 BOWMAN 51 TOM FEARS 7
52 1950 BOWMAN 52 ELROY HIRSCH 6
78 1950 BOWMAN 78 DANTE LAVELLI 7
4 1951 BOWMAN 4 NORM VAN BROCKLIN 6
21 1951 BOWMAN 21 ARNIE WEINMEISTER 5
62 1951 BOWMAN 62 LOU CREEKMUR 5
91 1951 BOWMAN 91 EMLEN TUNNELL 5
96 1951 BOWMAN 96 ERNIE STAUTNER 5
23 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 23 GINO MARCHETTI 4
29 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 29 HUGH McELHENNY 5
57 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 57 WAYNE MILLNER 5
85 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 85 ANDY ROBUSTELLI 5
129 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 129 JACK CHRISTIANSEN 6
140 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 140 YALE LARY 5
16 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 16 FRANK GIFFORD 5
46 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 46 ART DONOVAN 4
127 1952 BOWMAN SMALL 127 OLLIE MATSON 5
2 1955 BOWMAN 2 MIKE McCORMACK 7
14 1955 BOWMAN 14 LEN FORD 7
42 1955 BOWMAN 42 JOHN H. JOHNSON 7
70 1955 BOWMAN 70 JIM RINGO 6
81 1955 BOWMAN 81 BILLY WILSON 5
101 1955 BOWMAN 101 BOB ST. CLAIR 6
119 1955 BOWMAN 119 FRANK GATSKI 6
28 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 28 MEL HEIN 7
56 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 56 ERNIE NEVERS 6
64 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 64 BENNY FRIEDMAN 6
66 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 66 BRUISER KINARD 7
84 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 84 ACE PARKER 7
97 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 97 DON HUTSON 6
100 1955 TOPPS ALL-AMER. 100 FATS HENRY 6
19 1956 TOPPS 19 BILL HOWTON 6
41 1956 TOPPS 41 ROOSEVELT BROWN 7
44 1956 TOPPS 44 JOE SCHMIDT 7
60 1956 TOPPS 60 LENNY MOORE 7
15 1957 TOPPS 15 JACK BUTLER 7
23 1957 TOPPS 23 DON CHANDLER 8OC
85 1957 TOPPS 85 DICK LANE 7
94 1957 TOPPS 94 RAYMOND BERRY 6
124 1957 TOPPS 124 TOMMY McDONALD 6
138 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHNNY UNITAS 7
62 1958 TOPPS 62 JIM BROWN 6
90 1958 TOPPS 90 SONNY JURGENSEN 7
51 1959 TOPPS 51 SAM HUFF 8
116 1959 TOPPS 116 JERRY KRAMER 8
117 1959 TOPPS 117 KING HILL 7
132 1959 TOPPS 132 JIM PARKER 7
140 1959 TOPPS 140 BOBBY MITCHELL 7
155 1959 TOPPS 155 JIM TAYLOR 7
118 1960 FLEER 118 RON MIX 7
56 1960 TOPPS 56 FOREST GREGG 7
197 1961 FLEER 197 JIM OTTO 7
215 1961 FLEER 215 DON MAYNARD 8
45 1961 TOPPS 45 HENRY JORDAN 7
16 1962 FLEER 16 BILLY SHAW 7
10 1963 FLEER 10 NICK BUONICONTI 6
72 1963 FLEER 72 LANCE ALWORTH 6
44 1963 TOPPS 44 DAVE JONES 7
82 1963 TOPPS 82 BOB LILLY 7
95 1963 TOPPS 95 WILLIE WOOD 7
96 1963 TOPPS 96 RAY NITSCHKE 7
155 1963 TOPPS 155 LARRY WILSON 7
3 1964 PHILADELPHIA 3 JOHN MACKEY 7
71 1964 PHILADELPHIA 71 HERB ADDERLY 8
72 1964 PHILADELPHIA 72 WILLIE DAVIS 8
91 1964 PHILADELPHIA 91 MERLIN OLSEN 8
161 1964 PHILADELPHIA 161 JIM JOHNSON 6
90 1964 TOPPS 90 BOBBY BELL 7
92 1964 TOPPS 92 BUCK BUCHANAN 8
93 1964 TOPPS 93 ED BUDDE 7
41 1965 PHILADELPHIA 41 PAUL WARFIELD 7
53 1965 PHILADELPHIA 53 MEL RENFRO 7
64 1965 PHILADELPHIA 64 DICK LeBEAU 8
105 1965 PHILADELPHIA 105 CARL ELLER 8
156 1965 PHILADELPHIA 156 JIM BAKKEN 6
189 1965 PHILADELPHIA 189 PAUL KRAUSE 7
195 1965 PHILADELPHIA 195 CHARLEY TAYLOR 7
46 1965 TOPPS 46 WILLIE BROWN 7
122 1965 TOPPS 122 JOE NAMATH 6
133 1965 TOPPS 133 FRED BILETNIKOFF 6
45 1966 PHILADELPHIA 45 GENE HICKERSON 7
58 1966 PHILADELPHIA 58 BOB HAYES 6
134 1966 PHILADELPHIA 134 BOB BROWN 6
43 1967 PHILADELPHIA 43 LEROY KELLY 6
80 1967 PHILADELPHIA 80 DAVE ROBINSON 7
165 1967 PHILADELPHIA 165 JACKIE SMITH 6
178 1967 PHILADELPHIA 178 DAVE WILCOX 7
183 1967 PHILADELPHIA 183 CHRIS HANBURGER 7
173 1968 TOPPS 173 FLOYD LITTLE 7
196 1968 TOPPS 196 BOB GRIESE 7
120 1969 TOPPS 120 LARRY CSONKA 7
25 1970 TOPPS 25 JAN STENERUD 8.5
43 1970 TOPPS 43 ELVIN BETHEA 7.5
59 1970 TOPPS 59 ALAN PAGE 8
75 1970 TOPPS 75 LEM BARNEY 8
90 1970 TOPPS 90 O.J. SIMPSON 7
97 1970 TOPPS 97 DICK POST 7.5
151 1970 TOPPS 151 TOM MACK 8
156 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY 7
3 1971 TOPPS 3 M. SCHOTTENHEIMER 7
113 1971 TOPPS 113 KEN HOUSTON 7
114 1971 TOPPS 114 WILLIE LANIER 7
156 1971 TOPPS 156 TERRY BRADSHAW 7.5
188 1971 TOPPS 188 ROGER WEHRLI 7
210 1971 TOPPS 210 CHARLIE SANDERS 7
211 1971 TOPPS 211 JAKE SCOTT 8
245 1971 TOPPS 245 JOE GREENE 8
13 1972 TOPPS 13 JOHN RIGGINS 7
93 1972 TOPPS 93 TED HENDRICKS 7
101 1972 TOPPS 101 L.C. GREENWOOD 8
104 1972 TOPPS 104 RON YARY 7
157 1972 TOPPS 157 EMMITT THOMAS 7
186 1972 TOPPS 186 EUGENE UPSHAW 7
200 1972 TOPPS 200 ROGER STAUBACH 8OC
240 1972 TOPPS 240 LARRY LITTLE 8
244 1972 TOPPS 244 CHARLIE JOINER 7
316 1972 TOPPS 316 RAYFIELD WRIGHT 8.5
56 1973 TOPPS 56 LYDELL MITCHELL 8
77 1973 TOPPS 77 ART SHELL 8
89 1973 TOPPS 89 FRANCO HARRIS 7
115 1973 TOPPS 115 JACK HAM 7
167 1973 TOPPS 167 CURLEY CULP 7
322 1973 TOPPS 322 DAN DIERDORF 8
341 1973 TOPPS 341 JIM LANGER 8
343 1973 TOPPS 343 JACK YOUNGBLOOD 8
367 1973 TOPPS 367 BOB KUECHENBERG 8
517 1973 TOPPS 517 REGGIE RUCKER 8
183 1974 TOPPS 183 JOE DeLAMIELLEURE 8
383 1974 TOPPS 383 JOHN HANNAH 8
12 1975 TOPPS 12 MEL BLOUNT 8
282 1975 TOPPS 282 LYNN SWANN 8
367 1975 TOPPS 367 DAN FOUTS 8
490 1975 TOPPS 490 CLIFF HARRIS 8
158 1976 TOPPS 158 RANDY WHITE 8
220 1976 TOPPS 220 JACK LAMBERT 8
223 1976 TOPPS 223 BILLY JOHNSON 7.5
29 1977 TOPPS 29 LEROY SELMON 8
50 1977 TOPPS 50 MIKE HAYNES ALL-PRO 8
99 1977 TOPPS 99 MIKE WEBSTER 8
146 1977 TOPPS 146 HARRY CARSON 8
177 1977 TOPPS 177 STEVE LARGENT 8
380 1977 TOPPS 380 DAVE CASPER ALL-PRO 7
217 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN 8
217 1978 TOPPS 217 FRED DEAN 5
315 1978 TOPPS 315 TONY DORSETT 8
320 1978 TOPPS 320 JOHN STALLWORTH 8
361 1978 TOPPS 361 STANLEY MORGAN 8
404 1978 TOPPS 404 HERMAN EDWARDS 9
308 1979 TOPPS 308 OZZIE NEWSOME 8
310 1979 TOPPS 310 JAMES LOFTON 8
390 1979 TOPPS 390 EARL CAMPBELL 8
411 1979 TOPPS 411 DONNIE SHELL 8
423 1980 TOPPS 423 NOLAN CROMWELL 8
150 1981 TOPPS 150 KELLEN WINSLOW 9
194 1981 TOPPS 194 ART MONK 8
216 1981 TOPPS 216 JOE MONTANA 8
51 1982 TOPPS 51 ANTHONY MUNOZ ALL-PRO 9
434 1982 TOPPS 434 LAWRENCE TAYLOR ALL-PRO 8
486 1982 TOPPS 486 RONNIE LOTT ALL-PRO 8
294 1983 TOPPS 294 MARCUS ALLEN 9
356 1983 TOPPS 356 GARY ANDERSON 9
63 1984 TOPPS 63 JOHN ELWAY 8
111 1984 TOPPS 111 HOWIE LONG 8
123 1984 TOPPS 123 DAN MARINO 8
129 1984 TOPPS 129 DWIGHT STEPHENSON 8
143 1984 TOPPS 143 ANDRE TIPPETT 9
280 1984 TOPPS 280 ERIC DICKERSON 9
286 1984 TOPPS 286 JACKIE SLATER 9
300 1984 TOPPS 300 MORTEN ANDERSEN 9
303 1984 TOPPS 303 RICKEY JACKSON 8
303 1984 TOPPS 303 RICKEY JACKSON 8
380 1984 TOPPS 380 DARRELL GREEN 9
381 1984 TOPPS 381 RUSS GRIMM 9
36 1984 TOPPS USFL 36 JIM KELLY 8
52 1984 TOPPS USFL 52 STEVE YOUNG 8
58 1984 TOPPS USFL 58 REGGIE WHITE 8
24 1985 TOPPS 24 RICHARD DENT ALL PRO 7
251 1985 TOPPS 251 WARREN MOON 8
253 1985 TOPPS 253 MIKE MUNCHAK 8
161 1986 TOPPS 161 JERRY RICE 8
275 1986 TOPPS 275 REGGIE WHITE 8
389 1986 TOPPS 389 BRUCE SMITH 9
207 1987 TOPPS 207 GARY ZIMMERMAN 8
157 1988 TOPPS 157 CHRIS DOLEMAN 8.5
300 1988 TOPPS 300 KEVIN GREENE 9
235 1989 PRO SET 235 RANDALL McDANIEL 10
18 1989 SCORE 18 MICHAEL IRVIN 9
72 1989 SCORE 72 CRIS CARTER 9
78 1989 SCORE 78 ROD WOODSON 9
86 1989 SCORE 86 TIM BROWN 9
109 1989 SCORE 109 BRUCE MATTHEWS 9
211 1989 SCORE 211 THURMAN THOMAS 9
246 1989 SCORE 246 DEION SANDERS 9
254 1989 SCORE 254 STEVE WISNIEWSKI 9
257 1989 SCORE 257 BARRY SANDERS 9
258 1989 SCORE 258 DERRICK THOMAS 9
270 1989 SCORE 270 TROY AIKMAN 9
408S 1989 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 408S DERMONTTI DAWSON 9
38 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 38 JUNIOR SEAU 9OC
38 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 38 JUNIOR SEAU 9
39 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 39 CORTEZ KENNEDY 9
46 1990 ACTION PACKED ROOKIE UPDATE 46 SHANNON SHARPE 9
U-81 1990 FLEER UPDATE U-81 RICHMOND WEBB 9
65T 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 65T JUNIOR SEAU 9
101T 1990 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 101T EMMITT SMITH 9
835 1991 PRO SET 835 JOHN RANDLE 9
85T 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 85T ERIK WILLIAMS 10
94T 1991 SCORE SUPPLEMENTAL 94T AENEAS WILLIAMS 10
60 1991 STADIUM CLUB 60 RICKY WATTERS 9
94 1991 STADIUM CLUB 94 BRETT FARVE 9
421 1993 BOWMAN 421 WILLIE ROAF FOIL 9
6 1993 SP 6 JEROME BETTIS FOIL 8
123 1993 SP 123 WILL SHIELDS 9
259 1993 SP 259 JOHN LYNCH 9
331 1993 ULTRA 331 MICHAEL STRAHAN 9
68 1994 BOWMAN 68 ISAAC BRUCE 9
300 1994 PLAYOFF 300 LARRY ALLEN 9
3 1994 SP 3 MARSHALL FAULK FOIL 9
3 1995 SP 3 STEVE McNAIR FOIL 8
18 1995 SP 18 CURTIS MARTIN FOIL 9
99 1995 SP 99 WARREN SAPP 9
130 1995 SP 130 TERRELL DAVIS 9
174 1995 SP 174 TY LAW 9
162 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 162 TEDY BRUSCHI 9
164 1996 BOWMAN'S BEST 164 RAY LEWIS 9
18 1996 SP 18 MARVIN HARRISON 9
91 1996 SP 91 ZACH THOMAS 8
91 1996 SP 91 ZACH THOMAS 9
162 1996 SP 162 LAWYER MILLOY 8.5
11 1997 SP AUTHENTIC 11 TONY GONZALEZ 9
96 1999 SP AUTHENTIC 96 TORRY HOLT 9
185 2001 PACIFIC CROWN ROYALE 185 STEVE HUTCHINSON 8
362 2002 UPPER DECK XL 362 ALAN FANECA 8
132 2003 LEAF R & S 132 ANTONIO GATES 10
176 2004 TOPPS CHROME 176 DeANGELO HALL 9
215 2004 TOPPS CHROME 215 LARRY FITZGERALD 9
227 2004 TOPPS CHROME 227 CHRIS COOLEY 8
176 2006 TOPPS CHROME 176 HALOTI NGATA 9
TC193 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC193 DOMINIQUE RODGERS-CROMARTIE 9
TC222 2008 TOPPS CHROME TC222 JAKE LONG 9
TC127 2009 TOPPS CHROME TC127 BRIAN ORAKPO 9
TC166 2009 TOPPS CHROME TC166 REY MAUALUGA 9
C160 2010 TOPPS CHROME C160 NDAMUKONG SUH 9
<< <i>Can someone remind me (Jason maybe) why we chose to exclude Steve Owen and George Halas from the HOF RC set. Both have cards in the 52 Bowman set but for some reason, we chose to exclude them.
Both were chosen for the all 1920's decade players and both have their position listed on the HOF website as if there were inducted as a player and coach.
We are having a discussion on NET 54
Thanks
Dave >>
Let them know it is because we used common sense..I know, I know, hard to believe right? But it was something that really set what we did here on the message board and how we comprised the set that differed from many of the sets and message boards out there...If someone TRULY believes that Halas and/or Owen would have been inducted in the HOF for what they did on the field, they obviously don't know much about football...Or about how the HOF works...Have the ghost of Steve Owen call up the ghost of Jim McMillien and explain why he was a HOF PLAYER above and beyond McMillian...Have Halas talk to Lavvie Dilweg..Let him know that he was elected as a PLAYER...Just takes a little common sense and maybe some reading to understand why we as a group decided to leave those 2 guys off the HOF PLAYERS set.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Help me understand why it was decided to exclude players who were elected to the HOF from the HOF RC set.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>If someone TRULY believes that Halas and/or Owen would have been inducted in the HOF for what they did on the field, they obviously don't know much about football >>
Common sense?? I'll be the first to admit that I guess I don't know much about football since I don't have any idea what kind of players these guys were.
Unfortunately, there is no footage available from the 20s to show me why they are not HOF caliber players. Maybe I need to read up a little.. LOL....
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Not exactly HOF calibur player stats.
From his HOF page:
Class of 1963
Founder, Owner, Coach (Illinois)
1920-1983 Decatur/Chicago Staleys, Chicago Bears
George Stanley Halas. . .Truly "Mr. Everything" of pro football. . . Founded Decatur Staleys, attended league organizational meeting in 1920. . .Only person associated with NFL throughout first 50 years. . . Coached Bears for 40 seasons and six NFL titles. . . Record mark of 324 coaching wins stood for nearly three decades. . .Recorded many "firsts" in pro coaching, administration. . .Also played end for nine seasons . . . Born February 2, 1895, in Chicago. . .Died October 31, 1983, at age of 88.
Bolds are mine, playing career was an afterthought in the HOF writeup.
ETA: For Owen, it's more of a judgement call, but he doesn't get in on his playing stats alone.
The question I was asked was why we excluded Halas and Owen (as well as a few others...Tom Landry an example) from the HOF Rookie PLAYERS set when we created it here on the message board..Those of us who originally put the set together here discussed all of these issues, and common sense thinking was that since we ALREADY had a set that included everyone, players, coaches, contributers, that we should keep the PLAYERS set exclusive to guys inducted PRIMARILY for PLAYING...Simple as that guys, it wasn't rocket science...If you want to add Landry and Halas and whoever else and call them HOF Players, send the request and good luck to you. But regardless of the outcome, none of those guys are in the HOF PRIMARILY for playing or what they did on the field...That won't change no matter how you vote..Go educate yourselves if you believe otherwise. If the film is lacking, as Dave suggested, go read...PLENTY of material out there on the subject. All the addition will do is ruin the HOF PLAYERS set like many of the other sets were ruined a few years back by what I can only call ill-informed fanboys...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was asking to see if the HOF differentiated the category that each person was enshrined. It sounds like the answer is NO. To me, it seems like the HOF website is inconsistent. They have Halas and Owen listed by position on the Players page, but Jim Finks played in the league but there is not even a mention of it in his BIO.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Yes they are very inconsistent.That being said, much of my second response was to others who have posted since the first one. Wasn't necessarily directed to you Dave, but your initial question is what had me responding in the first place...
I want to make sure everyone understand my position on why we didnt include those guys (among some others)...We, no one, has any idea what percentage of their specific playing time on the field led to their HOF inductions. Same as a few other cases I mentioned above...Madden, LeBeau, etc...When guys are elected and voted in, it is not a cut and dry process. Maybe Halas was elected as 50% contributer, 30% coach and 20% player? Who knows....
What we DO know, by reading, watching, using common sense on his life and career (along with Owen, Landry, Shula, Finks, etc) is that they were NOT Primarily elected as a PLAYER. They would NOT have been elected to the HOF solely for what they did on the field...That was the reasoning...To keep the set exclusively deserving PLAYERS and not just rehashing the Player/Coach/Admin set that was already in the Registry at the time...Seems to have worked as the PLAYER set you and I both helped create has become and remains one of the hotter sets on the football Registry.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The pontification about using common sense to see that they couldn't have been enshrined as players was just that - pontification.
I've got my own issues with the cards that have been selected as representing a particular player. Really easy until the late 80's since there often was only 1 issue but after that it's a minefield.
Then you add multiple cards from the same company multiplied by the multiple companies and then it's a freak show.
That's why I cringe when someone claims common sense in regard to this set. Wouldn't that be any mainstream distribution card from the player's RC year should be eligible? And then that the base card PLUS any short printed refractors, superfractors, xfractors and supercalafragilisticexpyalodociusfractors count as well? That would create a more inclusive set to me.
<< <i>Ok guys.....at the risk of getting laughed out of the room.....I would like to hear your thoughts on.... (dun ta dada) Tony Romo. Does he have a shot?.....what card would I need to grab......and which one of you fine gents wants to sell me a 10. Thanks >>
He has some work to do for sure, but I think Romo at least has a shot. His 2003 Bowman Chrome rookie is used in the All-Time Cowboys set, so I would imagine that that's the card that would be used for the HOF RCs set.
Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on
this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder
to implement for sure.
I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts
Stabler finished at (194/222).
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Two different arguments. Common sense does apply in determining whether an inductee was enshrined as a player. A look at his career will clearly give you the answer. Choosing which card to use as part of the registry is subjective, and is prone to be the result of whoever argued most vehemently for its inclusion. >>
Perfectly stated and 1000% true.
This is why we attempted to factor in the card selection to be the "most valuable/popular" BASE card of the player. It seems however that has gone out the window at least within the Key Card sets in recent years...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I always thought any RC should be eligible.
Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on
this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder
to implement for sure.
I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts
Stabler finished at (194/222). >>
That set already existed..At the time the HOF Rookie Player set was created, there was a HOF Player set where you could use any card...Creating a set with a specific card of each player made it easier and more interesting to chase and collect. I base that on the sheer number of collectors who decided to try and complete the set we created vs. the all inclusive, any card set that also resides on the Registry.
Stabler should have been in long ago, as a modern finalist. Stats of QBs in that era are nearly meaningless simply because of the style of gameplay and ruleset they played under then. The fact that he helped put so so many others Raiders offensive players into the HOF, IMO, helps his case. Now they only need to get Ken Anderson in from the Seniors pool and they will be all set at QB! lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I hate those sets and don't do them. I really could care less where I stand on set rankings, however when a guy can get #1 set by including a 1990 fleer psa 10 emmitt Smith vs. a 1990 score supplement that's not an equal collecting basis. Not for me !!!!!!
Jason is absolutely right about comparing stats across era's. This is especially true for QB's.
I remember Stabler coming into the game for the very first time. His personality and style changed the Raiders much like having Namath on the Jets.
Any of you guys remember the 'superstars competitions' ? They had a moving net (maybe 2 1/2 feet in diameter) moving across the field. The QB tried to throw the FB into it.
Stabler blew the competition away he was so accurate. Kinda like O J's 100 yard dash......
Cliff Harris was pretty darn good in those events.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok guys.....at the risk of getting laughed out of the room.....I would like to hear your thoughts on.... (dun ta dada) Tony Romo. Does he have a shot?.....what card would I need to grab......and which one of you fine gents wants to sell me a 10. Thanks >>
He has some work to do for sure, but I think Romo at least has a shot. His 2003 Bowman Chrome rookie is used in the All-Time Cowboys set, so I would imagine that that's the card that would be used for the HOF RCs set. >>
Yep 2003 Bowman Chrome. His injury this year really hurts him but if he can pull off a super bowl before he retires, I think he will get in
<< <i>
<< <i>I always thought any RC should be eligible.
Not all cards are the same...scarcity, cost to obtain, and pop numbers. I like a weighting system based on
this. Ex a 52 bow large is generally valued higher than the small. I do agree this would be harder
to implement for sure.
I'm still pissed the Seau card was changed from the 90 S supplement to action packed AFTER it was already on a set.
Anyways, who thinks Stabler is worthy of the HOF ???? He had a few great years for sure. He had Branch the fastest man in the NFL, Casper and Freddie to throw to.
With all the Namath haters out there and the argument he threw more Int's than TD's (173/220) I checked and with almost the same passing attempts
Stabler finished at (194/222). >>
That set already existed..At the time the HOF Rookie Player set was created, there was a HOF Player set where you could use any card...Creating a set with a specific card of each player made it easier and more interesting to chase and collect. I base that on the sheer number of collectors who decided to try and complete the set we created vs. the all inclusive, any card set that also resides on the Registry.
Stabler should have been in long ago, as a modern finalist. Stats of QBs in that era are nearly meaningless simply because of the style of gameplay and ruleset they played under then. The fact that he helped put so so many others Raiders offensive players into the HOF, IMO, helps his case. Now they only need to get Ken Anderson in from the Seniors pool and they will be all set at QB! lol >>
spot on!
Hope everyone is doing well!
I used to collect this set a looong time ago.
I have one remaining card which I have decide to sell.
It is a 1933 Sport Kings Jim Thorpe PSA 5.5
I have been out of the market for so long I have no idea what this card is worth anymore.
Can someone out there help me with what the current market is for this card??
Best Regards, Gabbs
After:
Bill