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How can a coin with finger prints be mint state?
hchcoin
Posts: 4,842 ✭✭✭✭✭
For example, how can an MS 64 toned morgan dollar with finger prints in the toning be considered mint state? It just doesn't seem right to call this coin mint state in my mind. If your answer is that it is "market acceptable", how can that be????
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Obviously handled but that doesn't mean they circulated. I've seen two GSA CC's with horrible
fingerprints in GSA plastic and we all know they did not circulate. Just 120 year old prints!
UGLY
bob
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>.
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.
In regards to finger prints on a GSA coin. Obviously it was "handled" outside the mint. Is it really mint state? Mint state to me means that it doesn't have fingerprints regardless of who, when, why or where they occurred.
<< <i>If it doesn't have wear it's considered mint state with or without fingerprints. >>
Just doesn't seem right to me
<< <i>
<< <i>.
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.
In regards to finger prints on a GSA coin. Obviously it was "handled" outside the mint. Is it really mint state? Mint state to me means that it doesn't have fingerprints regardless of who, when, why or where they occurred. >>
Untrue. The GSA dollars were handled only with white gloved hands. So, the print was put on it at the CC Mint
back in the day. But, they then bagged them and stored them and you know the rest of the story.
bob
<< <i>
<< <i>.
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.
In regards to finger prints on a GSA coin. Obviously it was "handled" outside the mint. Is it really mint state? Mint state to me means that it doesn't have fingerprints regardless of who, when, why or where they occurred. >>
Collectors did not always handle coins the way we do today, especially coins that had relatively minimal collector market value before the age of slabbing. Furthermore, if the surface of a coin develops a patina pattern of a fingerprint where the surface of the coin isn't etched, it hasn't altered the metal in a way that would ordinarily disqualify it from a Mint State designation. Collectors didn't exactly favor fingerprints in the pre-slabbing age, but then again they didn't do their fingerprinted coins any favors by trying to remove those prints with a baking soda slurry either.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>.
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.
In regards to finger prints on a GSA coin. Obviously it was "handled" outside the mint. Is it really mint state? Mint state to me means that it doesn't have fingerprints regardless of who, when, why or where they occurred. >>
Untrue. The GSA dollars were handled only with white gloved hands. So, the print was put on it at the CC Mint
back in the day. But, they then bagged them and stored them and you know the rest of the story.
bob >>
Good point
<< <i>
<< <i>If it doesn't have wear it's considered mint state with or without fingerprints. >>
Just doesn't seem right to me
Whether it seems right to you or not, that is the answer.
A mint STATE coin is one that doesn't show wear. One with fingerprints can still be mint state...it won't be a super high MS grade, but it can still be mint state.
If you don't accept that, then that is your prerogative. Just understand that is the accepted status.
There are many things in the world that don't seem right to me, but I know that they are defined differently than I would like. That's part of life.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If it doesn't have wear it's considered mint state with or without fingerprints. >>
Just doesn't seem right to me
Whether it seems right to you or not, that is the answer.
A mint STATE coin is one that doesn't show wear. One with fingerprints can still be mint state...it won't be a super high MS grade, but it can still be mint state.
If you don't accept that, then that is your prerogative. Just understand that is the accepted status.
There are many things in the world that don't seem right to me, but I know that they are defined differently than I would like. That's part of life. >>
O.K. Bochiman - I understand your point BUT
What about MS64 morgans that have rub on them from being in a bag that was thrown around in a vault at a bank. How can that be mint state using the definition of "no wear"?
It just doesn't seem right to my simple mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>.
depends when the fingerprints or fingerprint outline was put on the surface(s).
not all finger prints on items are equal.
. >>
This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain. >>
There are several factors that determine the mint state grade of a coin---strike, luster, marks, and eye appeal. Finger prints (number, size, location, and how dark or deeply etched into the coin's surfaces) effects eye appeal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
i sent a '15-D Lincoln graded MS65RD to PCGS for a spot review. It has a very strong print on the reverse. HRH had three graders examine it and declared it 65RD in spite of the prominent print.
Lance.
<< <i>You can find modern MS coins in pocket change. >>
+1
i have a first reported/discovery RPM in mint state from pocket change.
.
Like Bochiman said:
<< <i> There are many things in the world that don't seem right to me, but I know that they are defined differently than I would like. That's part of life. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I like finger prints on toned coins and have many that are that way. I have a few
that the print is so full I wish I was a CSI technician and could lift them and run
them through the NCIC computer to see if there were any hits.
<< <i>I like finger prints on toned coins and have many that are that way. I have a few
that the print is so full I wish I was a CSI technician and could lift them and run
them through the NCIC computer to see if there were any hits.
While I have heard "I am not too bothered by some finger prints on toned coins", I've never heard anyone say "I like finger prints on toned coins".
Latin American Collection
<< <i>I HATE FINGERPRINTS, too!
Obviously handled but that doesn't mean they circulated. I've seen two GSA CC's with horrible
fingerprints in GSA plastic and we all know they did not circulate. Just 120 year old prints!
UGLY
bob >>
Do we know for sure that those who handled the GSA packaging chore wore protection?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You can read a detailed description of how the GSA coins were selected and handled in the VAM book.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>The people working in the Mints have valid reasons to pick up and inspect various coins. They do not wear white gloves. >>
And some of them had just lunched at KFC ! ! !
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
http://macrocoins.com
Do you think every coin that's been graded ms60 and higher has never been in one's pocket for a length of time?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>To paraphrase the title of this thread "How can a coin with tarnish be mint state?" >>
PerryHall makes an excellent point... Cheers, RickO
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>For example, how can an MS 64 toned morgan dollar with finger prints in the toning be considered mint state? It just doesn't seem right to call this coin mint state in my mind. If your answer is that it is "market acceptable", how can that be???? >>
Better yet, how can a coin without full mint luster, or impaired mint luster, or obvious high point rubbing/friction, be considered mint state. You see that all the time in 18th and 19th
century coinage that is TPG graded as MS61 to MS65. The finger print issue pales next to that. Does the MS66 1799 bust dollar with a fingerprint fail to qualify as mint state?
<< <i>How can a coin with finger prints be mint state? >>
Because generally accepted grading standards allow it?
<< <i>How can a coin with finger prints be mint state? >>
<< <i>Because generally accepted grading standards allow it? >>
It's as simple as that.
Coin Rarities Online
The name is LEE!
<< <i>If the term "mint state" meant it was in perfect as minted condition with no blemishes and never touched then only MS70 would be an MS grade and we would be saying AU69. >>
um, no a weak strike and milk spots and a number of other things can cause a coin - which is in "as minted condition... never touched" - to receive 69 or below.
There's also a difference between MS wear and AU wear. And, if a coin has come straight from the dies into a bag, and develops bag marks, but has never been handled or fingerprinted ... MS! If you break open a roll of coins from the mint, and some are nicer than others, how do you explain this?
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<< <i>Do not get "mint state" confused with "uncirculated". These have different meanings. >>
Huh? I thought they were both the same as far as coin grading is concerned. Can you explain the difference between the two terms?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Here is what I have written elsewhere on the subject of Unc vs Mint State.
Empty Nest Collection
Eric
<< <i>I wonder sometimes that we don't see even more prints on coins than we do, and what that might mean, or not.
Eric >>
Yep. Either coins are less susceptible to prints than advertised, or there's a lot of dipp'n going on.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do not get "mint state" confused with "uncirculated". These have different meanings. >>
Huh? I thought they were both the same as far as coin grading is concerned. Can you explain the difference between the two terms? >>
To me "fully mint state" means "really unc." What too often gets put in holders as MS61-65 might be market acceptable today as uncs, but many are not "fully mint state."
If we didn't accept market acceptable uncs in pre-1853 silver coinage, there'd be 75-90% less unc coins to play with. I'd say that >80% of the pre-1853 seated quarters and halves
with MS61-MS63 grades do not qualify as fully mint state. (ie they really aren't unc as most of them were mishandled or received months/years of circulation). Factor in multiple
dippings and/or light cleanings over the last 150 years and the numbers only drop. Ironically, some of the most impressive toning on early orig seated coins are those with light
fingerprints. Personally, I prefer those over dipped specimens. To each his own.
<< <i>Unc vs Mint State
Here is what I have written elsewhere on the subject of Unc vs Mint State. >>
Link broken.
Lance.
<< <i>You can handle a coin without wearing it. >>
PCGS handles MS coins every day ...
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Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder sometimes that we don't see even more prints on coins than we do, and what that might mean, or not.
Eric >>
Yep. Either coins are less susceptible to prints than advertised, or there's a lot of dipp'n going on. >>
Yup. Surely many high grade uncirculated coins were in bags or rolls and slipped by many/most fingers on the way to the collectors pouch, envelope, 2x2, flip, airtite and slab, but I would still expect to see more prints.
Eric
<< <i>Finger prints do not cause wear on a coin. So they can be treated as Mint State. >>
We agree - we are discussing (in the last 2 posts) the apparently low frequency of prints on coins and the potential ramifications of such an opinion. Fingerprints certainly do not preclude Mint State.
Eric