NGC CAC'd versus PCGS

Mowgli · February 26, 2013 12:18PM

If a CAC sticker indicates a coin is solid for the grade, why would a CAC'd NGC coin be worth less than a PCGS CAC'd coin of the same grade? I hear a lot about "the right plastic" and NGC overgrading compared to PCGS so how does the CAC sticker enter into the equation?

MidLifeCrisis · February 26, 2013 12:23PM

I get the feeling I've been here before.

Short answer - it depends on the coin.

Long answer - too long to write since I'm on an iPad. But subjectivity has a lot to do with it.

AnkurJ · February 26, 2013 12:24PM

To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC

RB1026 · February 26, 2013 12:30PM

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

I agree with this. However, in many instances the perception within the market and therefore pricing, differs from this for whatever reason.

AnkurJ · February 26, 2013 12:32PM

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

I agree with this. However, in many instances the perception within the market and therefore pricing, differs from this for whatever reason. >>

Its fine with me. I will buy NGC+CAC coins all day long at discounted prices, and have.

ranshdow · February 26, 2013 12:32PM

I had two half eagles, an 1851 and an 1852, in NGC AU58 CAC plastic that were, based on wear, clearly a grade step down from an 1854 half eagle in PCGS AU58 CAC that I owned at the same time. The '51 and '52 were beautiful, lustrous and dirty, but they were not sliders. The '54 was unquestionably.

Would this hold over different coins in similar plastic? Who knows. I personally think there's a great deal of variation in the amount of wear acceptable for AU58, but this set of coins was at an extreme IMO.

Goldbully · February 26, 2013 12:33PM

If a CAC sticker indicates a coin is solid for the grade, why would a CAC'd NGC coin be worth less than a PCGS CAC'd coin of the same grade? I hear a lot about "the right plastic" and NGC overgrading compared to PCGS so how does the CAC sticker enter into the equation?

No offense here, but your question is a bit left handed....sorry to all you 'lefties' out there.

AnkurJ has answered this question in whole.

Good Night

blu62vette · February 26, 2013 12:48PM

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

I have drank to much kool-aid, this doesnt work for me in my main series. I am sure in some series it does work.

RYK · February 26, 2013 12:49PM

Groundhog Day!

PCGS>NGC for my collection

lava · February 26, 2013 12:50PM

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

Disagree 100%. Lots of NGC+CAC don't cross.

magikbilly · February 26, 2013 12:54PM

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

Disagree 100%. Lots of NGC+CAC don't cross. >>

Maybe he meant to his own standards? AnkurJ didn't say he was crossing them but buying them.

Eric

WTCG · February 26, 2013 12:56PM

Depends on the coin.

lcoopie · February 26, 2013 1:00PM

Compare 2 pcgs CAC coins of the same grade
One will seem nicer than the other

RYK · February 26, 2013 1:01PM

<< If a CAC sticker indicates a coin is solid for the grade, why would a CAC'd NGC coin be worth less than a PCGS CAC'd coin of the same grade? I hear a lot about "the right plastic" and NGC overgrading compared to PCGS so how does the CAC sticker enter into the equation? >>

My most recent crossover attempt was an NGC AU-53 CAC 1849-D QE that is now in a PCGS AU-50 CAC holder, and this has played out over and over again in my collection over the last ten-plus years (and 4-5 years with the CAC component).

DIMEMAN · February 26, 2013 1:02PM

It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker.

AnkurJ · February 26, 2013 1:05PM

<< 

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

Disagree 100%. Lots of NGC+CAC don't cross. >>

Maybe he meant to his own standards? AnkurJ didn't say he was crossing them but buying them.

Eric >>

Some I cross, some I don't. Personally, if JA feels it is accurately graded, then its accurately graded.

coinbuf · February 26, 2013 1:39PM

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

Disagree 100%. Lots of NGC+CAC don't cross. >>

The problem with this statement is that you imply that the the NGC holdered coins are overgraded, that is just not the whole story. In fact asking this question here is silly as many on this board are serious kool-aid drinkers so the replies will be slanted.

ianrussell · February 26, 2013 1:40PM

Generally speaking, when a coin is PCGS and CAC, it attracts CAC buyers as well as PCGS buyers. Same goes for NGC for NGC and NGC/CAC coins. It definitely depends on the coin, the series, the grade, popularity etc. Okay - the answer is "it just depends on the coin".

- Ian

lava · February 26, 2013 1:55PM

I think it can be safely said that:
1. NGC+CAC coins are not typically sent to PCGS with the expectation of an upgrade; and
2. PCGS+CAC coins are not typically sent to NGC with the expectation of a mere cross at the same grade.

Sure it depends on the coin, but exceptions don't disprove what we know from experience to be true. NGC remains in the shadow of PCGS, and an NGC slab typically sparks the question why is it not in a PCGS holder.

CoinJunkie · February 26, 2013 2:02PM

<< Personally, if JA feels it is accurately graded, then its accurately graded. >>

There is no such thing as "accurately" graded. It's subjective. If you choose to worship
green footballs, that's your choice.

AnkurJ · February 26, 2013 2:05PM

<< 

<< Personally, if JA feels it is accurately graded, then its accurately graded. >>

There is no such thing as "accurately" graded. It's subjective. If you choose to worship
green footballs, that's your choice. >>

I can live with that.

mkman123 · February 26, 2013 2:14PM

To me NGC + CAC = same as PCGS + CAC

No kool aid for me

DeliaBug · February 26, 2013 2:14PM

<< I think it can be safely said that:
1. NGC+CAC coins are not typically sent to PCGS with the expectation of an upgrade; and
2. PCGS+CAC coins are not typically sent to NGC with the expectation of a mere cross at the same grade.

Sure it depends on the coin, but exceptions don't disprove what we know from experience to be true. NGC remains in the shadow of PCGS, and an NGC slab typically sparks the question why is it not in a PCGS holder. >>

Eric Newman seems to have a different opinion.

Elcontador · February 26, 2013 3:54PM

I have looked at quite a few Capped Bust Halves in MS 65, Liberty Nickels in MS 66, and Braided Hair Large and Half Cents in MS 64 and MS 65.
1) Re the first series, anyone familiar with it at this grade will tell you that NGC overgraded a number of coins in MS 65 holders by an average of 1/2 point. It's still possible that some NGC MS 65 Capped Bust Halves are solid for the grade, but only someone familiar with the series can make this determination re the particular coin.
2) I see the same thing with MS 66 Liberty Nickels, though not to the same degree as with Capped Bust Halves in MS 65.
3) Re the copper, I have found that PC coins in these grades seem to have slightly fewer problems - ie., one less hit in the obverse field, slightly less spotting, splotchy toning, etc.

I view stickers as marketing devices to help sell a coin, possibly at a premium, to a wider market of people. No offense to CAC, but the value of the sticker imo depends on the grade and series of the coin with the sticker. I think a sticker enhances the value of any pre 1835 coin. because you don't see many of these coins with stickers. However, I wouldn't pay a premium for a Liberty Nickel in a PC 6 holder, because many of them have stickers.

VanHalen · February 26, 2013 4:02PM

<< 

<< 

<< Personally, if JA feels it is accurately graded, then its accurately graded. >>

There is no such thing as "accurately" graded. It's subjective. If you choose to worship
green footballs, that's your choice. >>

I can live with that.
No one else in the industry puts their money where their mouth is like JA. >>

I like green footballs!

mozin · February 26, 2013 4:50PM

<< It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker. >>

For Bust Series coins this is certainly the case. There are even many NGC/CAC Bust coins that will not cross at the same grade, or even lower grade to PCGS. I am surprised that so many NGC Bust Series coins earn the CAC sticker, when so many of them will not cross to PCGS. In checking Heritage Prices Realized, I find 469 PCGS/CAC Bust Half Dollars, but only 115 NGC/CAC lots. That works out to about four times as many PCGS/CAC CBHs as NGC/CAC CBHs in Heritage auctions.

The same seems to be the case with Silver Classic Commemoratives. Heritage PR shows 3,173 PCGS/CAC versus only 1,119 NGC/CAC. That works out to almost triple PCGS/CAC versus NGC/CAC.

mkman123 · February 26, 2013 6:15PM

I bet some PCGS coins w/CAC may not even cross to NGC as well!

Lets not forget a PCGS w/gold cac if resubmitted may not even upgraded!

PerryHall · February 26, 2013 7:53PM

<< 

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

I agree with this. However, in many instances the perception within the market and therefore pricing, differs from this for whatever reason. >>

Its fine with me. I will buy NGC+CAC coins all day long at discounted prices, and have. >>

Agree except that I have trouble finding NGC+CAC coins that sell for a discount. For some reason the dealers I know won't discount nice coins just because they are in NGC slabs.

PerryHall · February 26, 2013 7:59PM

<< Depends on the coin. >>

Sorry, but you are off topic. We are not talking about coins here. This discussion is about slabs and stickers. Please stay on topic.

I'm kidding.

Manorcourtman · February 26, 2013 8:05PM

I just sent back two NGC/CAC coins that were dogs imho. They would not have crossed at even one grade lower imho. The series were Seated and Bust halves. I think CAC and NGC have much different standards sometimes, especially in the Bust half area as someone else has already noted. Just my opinion of course.

PerryHall · February 26, 2013 8:12PM

<< 

<< If a CAC sticker indicates a coin is solid for the grade, why would a CAC'd NGC coin be worth less than a PCGS CAC'd coin of the same grade? I hear a lot about "the right plastic" and NGC overgrading compared to PCGS so how does the CAC sticker enter into the equation? >>

My most recent crossover attempt was an NGC AU-53 CAC 1849-D QE that is now in a PCGS AU-50 CAC holder, and this has played out over and over again in my collection over the last ten-plus years (and 4-5 years with the CAC component). >>

If CAC gave it a green sticker when it was in an AU53 slab, shouldn't they have given this same coin a gold sticker in a AU50 slab?

PerryHall · February 26, 2013 8:14PM

<< It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker. >>

Sounds like PCGS and CAC have different grading standards.

drfish · February 26, 2013 9:20PM

How many threads have been posted about cracked PCGS coins sent to PCGS for potential upgrades that actually ended up being downgraded? If I like the look of a coin ,no matter the TPG on the holder, that CAC sticker gives me some piece of mind that the coin is "accurately" graded. We have all seen CAC stickered coins in both TPG holders that are unappealing. "accurate is of course highly subjective" Otherwise no one's coins would ever up or downgrade when cracked out and resubmitted (to the TPG on the holder)

RYK · February 26, 2013 10:35PM

The bottom line is that I insist that all of my coins are in PCGS holders, and I prefer them to be CAC'ed. The latter is optional. I worry less about the grade on the holder so long as I like the look of the coin. It has little to do with any notion that PCGS is better at grading, PCGS coins sell for more, etc. I just like the overall product, the platform, range of services and the registry, offered by PCGS, and I like the uniformity of all of the coins in the same brand holder.

I think that there are a lot of people here that feel the same.

shish · February 26, 2013 10:36PM

I'm convinced that no two 3rd party grading companies grade the same. The fact is the graders use slightly different standards. Combine this with the subjectivity of human grading and it makes perfect sense that may coins will not cross from one company to another at the same grade. I've witnessed that removing a coin from its holder will sometimes change the result of a crossover. Just like removing a coin from its holder will sometimes change the grade. My experience has convinced me that CAC does an outstanding job determining the quality of coins, much better than any of the 3rd party grading companies. In addition, the 3rd party grading companies have said they disregard CAC stickers when grading coins. Much like CAC disregards coins with the plus + or star * designations.

shish · February 26, 2013 10:41PM

Count me in, very well said!

"I think that there are a lot of people here that feel the same."

BAJJERFAN · February 26, 2013 11:14PM

<< 

<< To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>

Disagree 100%. Lots of NGC+CAC don't cross. >>

But submit them raw and they will. Be interesting how it would work if both PCGS and NGC used the same slab. Supposedly NGC plastic is thicker making evaluation thru the slab more difficult.

BAJJERFAN · February 26, 2013 11:17PM

<< 

<< It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker. >>

Sounds like PCGS and CAC have different grading standards. >>

So whose standards does CAC most closely approach? NGC? PCGS? Neither?

mkman123 · February 26, 2013 11:18PM

honestly it could be all politics. Downgrade a NGC slab to make it seem like NGC is more lax and make your product more appealing and attract more kool aid.
CAC doesn't look at the slab, it looks at the overall grade and if the grade is solid. A NGC MS65 w/CAC should look like a PCGS MS65 w/CAC.

RYK · February 26, 2013 11:42PM

<< 

<< The bottom line is that I insist that all of my coins are in PCGS holders, and I prefer them to be CAC'ed. The latter is optional. I worry less about the grade on the holder so long as I like the look of the coin. It has little to do with any notion that PCGS is better at grading, PCGS coins sell for more, etc. I just like the overall product, the platform, range of services and the registry, offered by PCGS, and I like the uniformity of all of the coins in the same brand holder.

I think that there are a lot of people here that feel the same. >>

I agree with this for the most part, however I find myself being less holder biased than I was in the past. I am pretty close to buy the coin and not the holder concept.
If I see 2 coins graded the same I will pick the nicer of the 2 regardless of holder. However I also tend to cross those coins, if I plan on keeping them long term (greater than 2-3 years). >>

I frequently buy NGC-graded and ANACS-graded coins, too. Last year, I bought an ICG-graded coin, my first in a long time. I buy raw coins. I buy coins that I like and get them into PCGS holders (if they are not already). Of course, for convenience, given the choice between two identical coins, one in a PCGS holder and the other in an NGC holder, I will buy the PCGS-graded coin, if the price is close. If the NGC-graded coins is significantly less expensive, I will buy it.

tradedollarnut · February 27, 2013 12:12AM

<< It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins THAT COLLECTORS HAVE ACCESS TO BUYING will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker. >>

Fixed it for you. In general, NGC grades ok - it's just that the vast majority of coins that will cross are crossed before they are ever put up for sale.

barberkeys · February 27, 2013 1:05AM

I say that CAC is just another marketing gimmick. They are not any more consistent than PCGS or NGC. Buy the coin.

I've seen 3 gold beans on coins of my area of focus, and they were all on coins that were marginal at best.

telephoto1 · February 27, 2013 1:33AM

<< I say that CAC is just another marketing gimmick. They are not any more consistent than PCGS or NGC. Buy the coin.

I've seen 3 gold beans on coins of my area of focus, and they were all on coins that were marginal at best. >>

What he said.
Way too much time, energy and money is wasted on having what is perceived as the right plastic with the right sticker.
It's stopped being about the coin. Kinda sad really. Problem is, there are still enough kool aid chuggers that will keep on submitting/resubmitting, chasing that grade/sticker/whatever, whether the item deserves it or not.
And someone's cash register keeps jingling whether they get it or not.

bestclser1 · February 27, 2013 1:42AM

Of course i have had NGC 65 CAC coins cracked out and upgrade at PCGS too.All depends on the coin,BUT the PCGS holder brings more money most of the time,work,show,and dinner,long day.Have a great one.

Jcarney · February 27, 2013 1:54AM

<< 

<< I say that CAC is just another marketing gimmick. They are not any more consistent than PCGS or NGC. Buy the coin.

I've seen 3 gold beans on coins of my area of focus, and they were all on coins that were marginal at best. >>

What he said.
Way too much time, energy and money is wasted on having what is perceived as the right plastic with the right sticker.
It's stopped being about the coin. Kinda sad really. Problem is, there are still enough kool aid chuggers that will keep on submitting/resubmitting, chasing that grade/sticker/whatever, whether the item deserves it or not.
And someone's cash register keeps jingling whether they get it or not. >>

Well said.

RYK · February 27, 2013 1:59AM

I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads.

In some ways, it is like talking about religion or politics. Established collectors have a belief system that works for them, and no matter what arguments, snide comments, or evidence that one may present, the belief system is not going to budge.

The bottom line is I like things the way that I like them, and I really do not care if you do not like them that way. I have a reasonable amount of experience, good and bad, that have formed my opinions and drive my behavior. No amount of peer pressure, anecdotes, data, or cajoling is going to make me think or behave differently, and so long as I am harming no one, it really should not matter.

I would recommend that beginning collectors, as they gain experience, strive to get to this place and worry more about what is inside the holder than what is on the holder.

This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter.

ricko · February 27, 2013 1:59AM

After 13+ years on this forum, let me restate what has always been the mantra....."Buy the coin, not the holder." Sure, if a collector prefers uniform plastic, so be it. If a collector prefers FPG stickers, so be it. Collect what you like.....Personally, I prefer coins.....Cheers, RickO

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 27, 2013 2:34AM

<< I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads.

In some ways, it is like talking about religion or politics. Established collectors have a belief system that works for them, and no matter what arguments, snide comments, or evidence that one may present, the belief system is not going to budge.

The bottom line is I like things the way that I like them, and I really do not care if you do not like them that way. I have a reasonable amount of experience, good and bad, that have formed my opinions and drive my behavior. No amount of peer pressure, anecdotes, data, or cajoling is going to make me think or behave differently, and so long as I am harming no one, it really should not matter. >>

Good answer.

roadrunner · February 27, 2013 4:21AM

<< It's just a fact.....Most ngc coins will NOT cross to PCGS at grade. Sticker or no sticker. >>

That's my experience with gem NGC type coins over the past 15 years. Auction results bear out the same conclusion. These aren't opinions, but observed facts.

No. It doesn't matter what the coin is. The same coin transferred from an NGC to PCGS holder in the same grade will almost always sell for more money. If you happen to luck into being an auction consignor when 2 "price is no object" whales bid on your coins, then maybe, you just might luck into a price that ends up as high or higher than PCGS. It doesn't matter if the coin is stickered or not. The PCGS coin will still sell for more money. If one's goal is only to buy nice NGC coins more cheaply, then this is a great system. But when that finally comes to sell, trade or whatever, don't complain that you aren't getting PCGS money for your coins. The NGC discount on the buying side transfers to the selling side as well. No free lunch here unless you're one of the lucky ones that consistently crosses NGC coins over. But, if you're one of the numerous collectors who paid PCGS money for a nice stickered NGC coin that you eventually had to sell at a significant discount, then you have every right to complain.

If you want to buy NGC + CAC coins at discount then go to major auctions. Even if they bring a premium to sheet values, it will still be less than if they same coin were in PCGS plastic.
Cracking NGC coins out of their holders and resubmitting raw is not included in the above analyis. Now you're getting a totally unbiased view on the coin, and it will likely grade out for what it is, not what holder it used to be in. The "crack out" vs. "cross" argument yields two totally different results. My own feelings these days is to crack out everything decent that is in an NGC holder (ie A and B level coins). For someone whose collection was >80% NGC coins for the period of 1989-2009, I had considerable "NGC" skin in the game. These are my personal experiences, not opinions or conjectures.

NGC CAC'd versus PCGS

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