<< <i>I took this as I think it was intended....an experiment. It shows clearly that the belief that all old holders are undergraded is a myth.
I don't know Morgans that well, but to me ICG got it right and PCGS overgraded it. It's a common coin at not special at all.
JMHO >>
I tend to agree. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you post that ANA example blown up, to the same size in the same quality photo, you will find marks galore.
There are a few really perceptive readers here, who like me, like to understand this whole grading game. Those who never send a coin in, crack out coins, or enjoy finding a diamond in the rough are confused. When they are that confused, they start pretending they are experts, finding serious damage. Others who are confused think I was trying to get rich on the highly sought after 1881-S in 64.
Still others who are really confused are trying to figure out why they can't see the coin in the Rattler holder!!!
<< <i>If you post that ANA example blown up, to the same size in the same quality photo, you will find marks galore.
There are a few really perceptive readers here, who like me, like to understand this whole grading game. Those who never send a coin in, crack out coins, or enjoy finding a diamond in the rough are confused. When they are that confused, they start pretending they are experts, finding serious damage. Others who are confused think I was trying to get rich on the highly sought after 1881-S in 64.
Still others who are really confused are trying to figure out why they can't see the coin in the Rattler holder!!! >>
I think you misunderstand the grading game...
Your original post...
<< <i>This has to be more damaging to them than over grading, as many claim. I sent in some DMPL coins to see if they were as strict as everyone else these days. For the fun of it, I cracked this out and sent it along, (at the 5 day service level to boot!!)
I am thinking it's a 65, so they might as well give it 66.
I am sorry, but if they are really using 3 graders, someone cue the music to the 3 Stooges, or to Three Blind Mice, either one works.
Based on those images, the coin was clearly net graded. When that happens, the final result is usually a crap shoot. Early in my collecting "career" (circa the year 2000), I bought a pretty toned 17-D Merc in a PC63FB holder. The coin looked clearly under-graded, so I cracked it and sent it back to PCGS. Came back in a bodybag for "Questionable Color". Six (!) submissions to various TPGs finally got it back into an NG63FB holder, at which point I sold it for about what I paid for it (minus a lot of submission fees).
What I learned from this is that "clearly under-graded" coins often aren't, regrade is a better option than cracking (in the vast majority of cases), grading is not scientific, and unless you are an expert in the series in question, resubmitting more than once is usually a losing game.
At least you ran your experiment on an inexpensive and common coin. Cheap education.
1) Cool experiment by the OP, thanks for taking the time, money and courage to do this. 2) A lot of people appeared to either respond without reading, or do not have a sense of humor. 3) coinbuyer12 could not be anymore off-base with his severe damage comment.
Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
This kind of thing reminds me of the guy who ATed a bunch of (was it quarters?) and sent them to PCGS to get them graded. When they were all in holders he expected everyone to be outraged or amazed......nobody was. He just wasted a bunch of money....period. So did you.
I have told this story before: About ten years ago when I was getting more serious about coins, I took a 1907 Saint ICG MS-63 and cracked it out of its holder. I was a novice at doing so and literally dropped it into a garbage can. I took the coin, submitted it to PCGS, and it came back MS-64. That's right, literally from the garbage can to MS-64.
One any given grading event, almost anything can happen. Sure the Browns will beat the Steelers once in a blue moon (on any given Sunday), Oreville, but the Steelers have beat the Browns something like 18 of the last 20 games, and PCGS wins over ICG in a considerably higher percentage of the times.
I hesitate to get involved with this discussion but here goes: I think ICG got it right BASED ON THE PHOTOGRAPHS OTOH the photos are not good enough for me to make an accurate assessment of the coin
<< <i>I was actually hoping that this promising topic would show how coins graded properly would be graded at ICG; what a build up and subsequent dud! >>
It was just one coin. How can anyone glean any kind of serious conclusion from that? Send it back raw to PCGS 10 times and see what you get.
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so! >>
He didn't cross it, he cracked it out and submitted it raw.
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so! >>
He didn't cross it, he cracked it out and submitted it raw. >>
Oh,my bad! That's a different story,then.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
I have a lot to learn about grading but it is my impression that the difference between a 63 and 64 is so slight that you could go back and forth on submissions depending on the grader and maybe even the same grader on a different day. Now the difference between 64 and a 65 seems to be a more consistent between graders. Just my impression right now.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I'll throw my hat into the opinion ring. I'm glad that the original poster (OP) did this as it stirred up something we all knew....everyone has an opinion. I agree with the OP, this coin is a 64 with an outside shot at 65 in my opinion. You have to take in account the size of this image and also that the coin is a Morgan Dollar and not a Mercury Dime. Again, I think it's neat that the OP did this experiment and I commend him for it! Pete
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
<< <i>I have a lot to learn about grading but it is my impression that the difference between a 63 and 64 is so slight that you could go back and forth on submissions depending on the grader and maybe even the same grader on a different day. Now the difference between 64 and a 65 seems to be a more consistent between graders. Just my impression right now. >>
Some look at a 64 and say it's a 'dog' because it couldn't make 65. Others look at a 63 and say 'nice coin' because it's not a 62...speaking of 62's has anyone seen one lately?
The 1881-S dollar is very common in attractive high grades like MS-65. Therefore one should not expect to get any "gifts" when they send one of these coins in for grading. The legitimate services often grade these coins conservatively.
The MS-63 grade does appear to be too low IMO, but the coin is definitely NOT an MS-65. It has too many little marks, and for a coin that comes nice, this one is quite average.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I have told this story before: About ten years ago when I was getting more serious about coins, I took a 1907 Saint ICG MS-63 and cracked it out of its holder. I was a novice at doing so and literally dropped it into a garbage can. I took the coin, submitted it to PCGS, and it came back MS-64. That's right, literally from the garbage can to MS-64.
One any given grading event, almost anything can happen. Sure the Browns will beat the Steelers once in a blue moon (on any given Sunday), Oreville, but the Steelers have beat the Browns something like 18 of the last 20 games, and PCGS wins over ICG in a considerably higher percentage of the times. >>
This is very accurate, you just never can tell. There are just so many factors, he could crack again and send back to ICG and get a 63 and then do it again and it comes back a 65. In the sports card world it is even more frustrating.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Consistantcy is the key. If you send it back to each service 10 times which one stays the same? Also they are really putting a value on the coin too so if you look at that way they both put about the same money on it.
Comments
I don't know Morgans that well, but to me ICG got it right and PCGS overgraded it. It's a common coin at not special at all.
JMHO
<< <i>I took this as I think it was intended....an experiment. It shows clearly that the belief that all old holders are undergraded is a myth.
I don't know Morgans that well, but to me ICG got it right and PCGS overgraded it. It's a common coin at not special at all.
JMHO >>
I tend to agree. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you post that ANA example blown up, to the same size in the same quality photo, you will find marks galore.
There are a few really perceptive readers here, who like me, like to understand this whole grading game. Those who never send a coin in, crack out coins, or enjoy finding a diamond in the rough are confused. When they are that confused, they start pretending they are experts, finding serious damage. Others who are confused think I was trying to get rich on the highly sought after 1881-S in 64.
Still others who are really confused are trying to figure out why they can't see the coin in the Rattler holder!!!
<< <i>If you post that ANA example blown up, to the same size in the same quality photo, you will find marks galore.
There are a few really perceptive readers here, who like me, like to understand this whole grading game. Those who never send a coin in, crack out coins, or enjoy finding a diamond in the rough are confused. When they are that confused, they start pretending they are experts, finding serious damage. Others who are confused think I was trying to get rich on the highly sought after 1881-S in 64.
Still others who are really confused are trying to figure out why they can't see the coin in the Rattler holder!!!
I think you misunderstand the grading game...
Your original post...
<< <i>This has to be more damaging to them than over grading, as many claim. I sent in some DMPL coins to see if they were as strict as everyone else these days. For the fun of it, I cracked this out and sent it along, (at the 5 day service level to boot!!)
I am thinking it's a 65, so they might as well give it 66.
I am sorry, but if they are really using 3 graders, someone cue the music to the 3 Stooges, or to Three Blind Mice, either one works.
Latin American Collection
the final result is usually a crap shoot. Early in my collecting "career" (circa
the year 2000), I bought a pretty toned 17-D Merc in a PC63FB holder. The
coin looked clearly under-graded, so I cracked it and sent it back to PCGS. Came
back in a bodybag for "Questionable Color". Six (!) submissions to various TPGs
finally got it back into an NG63FB holder, at which point I sold it for about
what I paid for it (minus a lot of submission fees).
What I learned from this is that "clearly under-graded" coins often aren't,
regrade is a better option than cracking (in the vast majority of cases),
grading is not scientific, and unless you are an expert in the series in question,
resubmitting more than once is usually a losing game.
At least you ran your experiment on an inexpensive and common coin. Cheap
education.
Some people won't even look at them.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
reconsideration - then you won't unless it goes up
1) Cool experiment by the OP, thanks for taking the time, money and courage to do this.
2) A lot of people appeared to either respond without reading, or do not have a sense of humor.
3) coinbuyer12 could not be anymore off-base with his severe damage comment.
Any anyone who thinks all rattlers are undergraded is severely misinformed.
You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly?
<< <i>You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly? >>
Yes!
<< <i>You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly? >>
It's like why climb a mountain?
Because it's there!
Rational?
Who knows?
I liked it in the old holder, but then again I'm sentimental.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
However, the reality of the market place today dictates PCGS / NGC. I would be curious what NGC would grade your coin.
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly? >>
My guess, fodder for a thread just like this one. Wabbit2313 is certainly getting his money's worth with this one.
I have told this story before: About ten years ago when I was getting more serious about coins, I took a 1907 Saint ICG MS-63 and cracked it out of its holder. I was a novice at doing so and literally dropped it into a garbage can. I took the coin, submitted it to PCGS, and it came back MS-64. That's right, literally from the garbage can to MS-64.
One any given grading event, almost anything can happen. Sure the Browns will beat the Steelers once in a blue moon (on any given Sunday), Oreville, but the Steelers have beat the Browns something like 18 of the last 20 games, and PCGS wins over ICG in a considerably higher percentage of the times.
I think ICG got it right BASED ON THE PHOTOGRAPHS
OTOH the photos are not good enough for me to make an accurate assessment of the coin
<< <i>Now, rip it out and send it to NGC.
I think it may just 5
<< <i>You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly? >>
Chits n giggles apparently.
<< <i>
<< <i>You took a very nice graded MS64 PCGS Rattler out of it's holder and sent it to ICG for what exactly? >>
It's like why climb a mountain?
Because it's there!
Rational?
Who knows?
I liked it in the old holder, but then again I'm sentimental. >>
Hardly seems like a numismatic travesty tho. There are a lot more of those old rattlers that need to bite the dust.
<< <i>I was actually hoping that this promising topic would show how coins graded properly would be graded at ICG; what a build up and subsequent dud! >>
It was just one coin. How can anyone glean any kind of serious conclusion from that? Send it back raw to PCGS 10 times and see what you get.
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.<< <i>
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so!
He didn't cross it, he cracked it out and submitted it raw.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you guys just have money to piss away? WHY would you send this coin in to ICG?
CoinBuyer12, grading is subjective, but if you are concerned about those marks on the coin that you pointed out keeping the coin from gem status, you need to go to a grading class soon as you can.
I know I have been a little harsh around here as of late, but I have been amazed at the blather that gets posted here as fact. Please take my gruff tone as well meant advice. PM me if you would like more detailed explanation.
John >>
One thing,that is a very nice Morgan,far better than what the grade was given,but in saying that,ICG probably was thinking," your crossing a well PCGS slab over to us?"We'll give him a lower grade for doing so!
He didn't cross it, he cracked it out and submitted it raw. >>
Oh,my bad! That's a different story,then.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.'81-S does come nice as has already been said.
It's not a big deal for ICG to call the coin a 63,in my opinion.
I would say that even if it was my coin.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>
<< <i>By the way, IIRC, the ICG holder is THE toughest one to crack open! >>
I think SEGS has that honor. >>
And that is correct. Had the two confused.
Empty Nest Collection
I agree with the OP, this coin is a 64 with an outside shot at 65 in my opinion. You have to take in account the size of this image and also that the coin is a Morgan Dollar and not a Mercury Dime.
Again, I think it's neat that the OP did this experiment and I commend him for it!
Pete
Louis Armstrong
<< <i>I have a lot to learn about grading but it is my impression that the difference between a 63 and 64 is so slight that you could go back and forth on submissions depending on the grader and maybe even the same grader on a different day. Now the difference between 64 and a 65 seems to be a more consistent between graders. Just my impression right now. >>
Some look at a 64 and say it's a 'dog' because it couldn't make 65. Others look at a 63 and say 'nice coin' because it's not a 62...speaking of 62's has anyone seen one lately?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The MS-63 grade does appear to be too low IMO, but the coin is definitely NOT an MS-65. It has too many little marks, and for a coin that comes nice, this one is quite average.
<< <i>On any given Sunday...
I have told this story before: About ten years ago when I was getting more serious about coins, I took a 1907 Saint ICG MS-63 and cracked it out of its holder. I was a novice at doing so and literally dropped it into a garbage can. I took the coin, submitted it to PCGS, and it came back MS-64. That's right, literally from the garbage can to MS-64.
One any given grading event, almost anything can happen. Sure the Browns will beat the Steelers once in a blue moon (on any given Sunday), Oreville, but the Steelers have beat the Browns something like 18 of the last 20 games, and PCGS wins over ICG in a considerably higher percentage of the times. >>
This is very accurate, you just never can tell. There are just so many factors, he could crack again and send back to ICG and get a 63 and then do it again and it comes back a 65. In the sports card world it is even more frustrating.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>poor ICG, no matter what they do they get hammered. >>
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
And that's a good point !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I believe but cannot know for certain that there still would have been a complaint. >>
100% guaranteed. There's always a complaint.
- Jim