how do you determine how much damage makes a coin ungradeable ?

WingedLiberty1957 · November 20, 2012 5:18AM

First off ... Is this dent in the reverse around 6 o'clock damage??? (note that the obverse shows no dent or damage, (from the front on photo)

Second ... Would this dent make this coin ungradeable ?

What is the threshold for gradeable vs non-gradeable where damage is concerned (for PCGS)"

Thanks for any input!

PerryHall · November 20, 2012 5:57AM

I think PCGS would grade it and treat that edge nick as a bag mark when determining the grade.

amwldcoin · November 20, 2012 6:05AM

I have learned as long as a rim bump doesn't distort the denticles the coin will usually grade.

WingedLiberty1957 · November 20, 2012 6:06AM

Thank you ... that's very helpful info!

BryceM · November 20, 2012 12:44PM

That sort of thing could be a real issue on a coin that would otherwise grade at MS67. On an MS63 it probably wouldn't even be noticed.

Do keep in mind though that there are 839 other reasons that it might not grade. I've been fixated on the right hand and been hit in the head by the left when I wasn't expecting it before.

stealer · November 20, 2012 1:02PM

<< I have learned as long as a rim bump doesn't distort the denticles the coin will usually grade. >>

PCGS is pretty lenient for rim bumps on older and scarcer coins. They can be visible and distort the denticles greatly and still grade fine.

Lion02 · November 20, 2012 1:04PM

As for how a coin gets graded...by a service or not does depend on the severity of the 'damage in question'. First a determination has to be assessed as to whether the area affected was done at the mint or did it happen after leaving the mint. Also remember even the grading 'ideal' should be objective.....in reality one's bias as to what affects their opinion when grading does play into their decision process when a net grade is determined. Each grader/collector has their own 'subjective' criteria when grading a coin and it's hard to get other collectors to agree with a grade. Now Grading Services are suppose to be neutral when grading a given coin and they do their best to come up with an objective grade. But of course once the recipient receives the coin back they may disagree with the opinion put forth by a professional grading service!!!

BryceM · November 20, 2012 2:23PM

Welcome Lion02!

GrumpyEd · November 20, 2012 2:32PM

I think the rim bump probably won't stop this one from grading.

------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome Lion02

<< First a determination has to be assessed as to whether the area affected was done at the mint or did it happen after leaving the mint. >>

Damage at the mint after the coin is struck is the same as damage outside of the mint.
The term "post mint damage" really means post strike/minting, it doesn't mean after leaving the mint.

BillJones · November 20, 2012 10:27PM

First off you need to tell the grade on the holder that it is in now if you want to know if the coin is "ungradeable." You also need to show us the obverse.

If the obverse is similar to the reverse, and this coin is in an MS-61 or even MS-62, it might be "upgradeable." If it is in an MS-63 or 64 holder, it probably is not. When I was a dealer I noted that rim marks like this on a silver dollar often knocked down the Mint State grade by at least a point. In other words if the coin would have graded MS-64 without the rim nick, if it had one of two of these type of edge marks, it was graded MS-63 or even 62.

This may seem unfair, but it's still a factor. If this coin is a rare date and mint mark combination, the grading often gets tougher. If there is a BIG price increase between an MS-63 and MS-64 or if it depends upon the MS-64 and 65 grades, often the services get more conservative. For example I handed a number of MS-63 graded 1879-CC dollars that probably would have graded MS-64 if it had been a more common date.

This is a good thing because in the "good old days" some dealers used to get "fast and lose" with the grades when it was a better date. That was wrong because you should pay high prices only for the rare date. You should not be subject to a "double wammie" with an inflated grade as well.

In answer to your question I've seen dollars with edge marks like this have grades, but the mark is usually a one or two point dedection. One thing that would make this coin "ungradeable" would be if someone had tried to file this mark off the coin. Filed rims would make it an instant "no grade."

WingedLiberty1957 · November 20, 2012 10:36PM

<< First off you need to tell the grade on the holder that it is in now if you want to know if the coin is "ungradeable." You also need to show us the obverse.

If the obverse is similar to the reverse, and this coin is in an MS-61 or even MS-62, it might be "upgradeable." If it is in an MS-63 or 64 holder, it probably is not. When I was a dealer I noted that rim marks like this on a silver dollar often knocked down the Mint State grade by at least a point. In other words if the coin would have graded MS-64 without the rim nick, if it had one of two of these type of edge marks, it was graded MS-63 or even 62.

This may seem unfair, but it's still a factor. If this coin is a rare date and mint mark combination, the grading often gets tougher. If there is a BIG price increase between an MS-63 and MS-64 or if it depends upon the MS-64 and 65 grades, often the services get more conservative. For example I handed a number of MS-63 graded 1879-CC dollars that probably would have graded MS-64 if it had been a more common date.

This is a good thing because in the "good old days" some dealers used to get "fast and lose" with the grades when it was a better date. That was wrong because you should pay high prices only for the rare date. You should not be subject to a "double wammie" with an inflated grade as well. >>

Here is the obverse ... it's an NGC MS63.
It's a common date Morgan.

BillJones · November 20, 2012 10:53PM

I think that PCGS will grade it. I believe that it should make MS-63, but no higher. The obverse really is an MS-63 without the rim nick, but the nick is on the reverse and does not "scream at you." If the same nick were on the obverse below that date, that could be a problem.

MrEureka · November 20, 2012 10:53PM

A good rule of thumb is that you should net grade a problem coin, and then decide if the coin would (at first glance) look ridiculous in a non-problem holder at the net grade. If it does - either because it looks too good for the grade or the problem is just too glaring - the coin should probably be body-bagged. If it would look OK at the lower grade, then it should probably get a grade.

This approach also helps explain why a problem on a modern coin may get a quick "no grade", but a colonial or pioneer gold piece with the same problem might grade. Problems on coins that typically have problems are simply not as glaring, because they are more expected.

jdimmick · November 20, 2012 10:55PM

did you happen to buy this coin in baltimore, looks awful familiar. A freind of mine who went with me sold off a bunch of toners and I beleive this was his coin?

WingedLiberty1957 · November 20, 2012 11:02PM

No, I did not buy this coin. It's actually for sale right now on eBay (I dont have any relationship to the seller) .

I am not planning on buying it.

The actual reason I posted this is I wanted to learn about this whole "damage" topic for things to watch if I buy either raw coins or third party slabbed coins that I wanted to cross to PCGS
So I thought I would ask all the various experts on this board

Some great answers so far and I have learned a lot already ... so THANKS

By the way, I thought that the reverse looked amazingly clean and well struck (except for the rim ding) ...
I wonder if the reverse (alone) might be an MS64 or even an MS65 ...
and the Obverse an MS63

And NGC downgraded it a little bit for the ding on the reverse ... so it was net graded MS63

ricko · November 21, 2012 12:38AM

Welcome aboard lion02....Cheers, RickO

BillJones · November 21, 2012 2:11AM

<< No, I did not buy this coin. It's actually for sale right now on eBay (I dont have any relationship to the seller) .

I am not planning on buying it.

The actual reason I posted this is I wanted to learn about this whole "damage" topic for things to watch if I buy either raw coins or third party slabbed coins that I wanted to cross to PCGS
So I thought I would ask all the various experts on this board

Some great answers so far and I have learned a lot already ... so THANKS

By the way, I thought that the reverse looked amazingly clean and well struck (except for the rim ding) ...
I wonder if the reverse (alone) might be an MS64 or even an MS65 ...
and the Obverse an MS63

And NGC downgraded it a little bit for the ding on the reverse ... so it was net graded MS63 >>

As a practical matter the obverse is 70% of the grade. The reverse sort of comes along for the ride unless it has a problem, which in this case it has fairly small problem.

Lion02 · November 21, 2012 4:54AM

Thanx...to everyone's Welcome and I am here because a very good friend thought I would have fun reading and contributing. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to maneuver around on this Forum and what all those symbols mean. I am on other Forums but this one is set up differently.....now back to the question at hand..... I am very old school and grade very conservatively and also go on first impressions. As for the damaged area to me it makes a difference as to whether the planchet originally was produced with this problem area or whether it happen after the minting process.....and what else I notice on the reverse which does not appeal to me( remember what we all see can be different and how we arrive at a net grade is determined by grading standards and eye appeal)is the bag mark across the eagle's head...in the eyebrow area.....I myself would not buy this coin!!! But again it's just my opinion and that along with a dime will not buy you a cup of coffee.....
Take it easy.....Leo

DieClash · November 21, 2012 12:54PM

<< ..... I am very old school and grade very conservatively and also go on first impressions. As for the damaged area to me it makes a difference as to whether the planchet originally was produced with this problem area or whether it happen after the minting process.....and what else I notice on the reverse which does not appeal to me( remember what we all see can be different and how we arrive at a net grade is determined by grading standards and eye appeal)is the bag mark across the eagle's head...in the eyebrow area.....I myself would not buy this coin!!! But again it's just my opinion and that along with a dime will not buy you a cup of coffee.....
Take it easy.....Leo >>

Leo, I'm not sure about your "planchet" reference there, but wih respect to the bag marks, one needs to appreciate that these coins were 90% silver (soft metal) and toted around in bags of hundreds per. Bag marks are very common with heavy Morgan and Peace $1s and as such are recognized by major TPGs as par for the course. I apprecite that you would not purchase them which lends to your eye for the more rarer PQ specimen. Good luck with your persuits.

Cheers!

Kirk

keets · November 21, 2012 8:05PM

it really doesn't matter what any of the TPG's think, a defect like that would catch my eye every time i look at the coin. i personally wouldn't want it. from that perspective it is "ungradeable" for me.

BillJones · November 21, 2012 9:08PM

<< it really doesn't matter what any of the TPG's think, a defect like that would catch my eye every time i look at the coin. i personally wouldn't want it. from that perspective it is "ungradeable" for me. >>

For a common date you are right because you can easily find one without the defect, but sometimes there are trade-offs with better dates for some collectors. For example some collectors might accept a rim nick on the reverse in exchange for a clean cheek if the grade and price are lower as a result.

Lion02 · November 22, 2012 12:51AM

I'm just saying that since their we're so many made and they were handled poorly(loose in bags of $1,000.00)... For me I would hold out for a better coin to add to my holding. As we all know...grading should be objective but it usually never is and if you want to see a grading guide which is more conservative in its standards get a hold of a copy of Brown and Dunn(sp.).
Also I have been a member of EAC for over 27 years and the standards we use are ultra-conservative and coins, once they are 'Sharpness Graded' can be heavily downgraded due to copper being very reactive to the forces of nature and thus have many problems to arrive at a 'Net Grade'. Also across the board it takes years of studying and looking at thousands of coins to learn to see the 'Sharpness Grade' of a coin and then deducting for issues...and copper can drop considerably in grade and value. Remember the Grading Scale being used in the industry comes from Dr. William Sheldon and was originally formulated to attempt to arrive at a way to price Early American Copper coins.....
Take it easy.....Leo

Oh, btw...what does TPG...stand for???

GrumpyEd · November 22, 2012 5:55PM

<< Oh, btw...what does TPG...stand for??? >>

Third Party Grading like PCGS or NGC.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 22, 2012 6:23PM

I look at the coin. If it's damage, it had better be worth a lot of money (considerng the costs) for me to warrant the expense of encapsulation. It might be less expense to find an already slabbed specimen with better eye appeal than what I'm considering, as well. There are so many variables and facets to the question.
But the key for me is a matter of "will the buyer" or eventual owner enjoy the coin outside of the holder, too ? Perhaps I'm jaded. All coins are gradeable. It's just that the POWER HOUSES won't assign a grade, and henceforth the "details grade". This is a giant step for the hobby and it is "tuition" for each individual on a case by case basis. I love this part of our "free enterprise system".
If the reason for submitting is "tuition", then well and good. This is perfectly fine and in conjunction with protecting the hobby as each person deems necessary. Kudos to those who see this way. As for me, I don't want to waste a cent on something that isn't worth the cost. It's "cointerproductive" and I have budgetary coinstraints out the wazoo.

WingedLiberty1957 · November 22, 2012 9:53PM

Great info. Thanks for all the input everyone!

Lion02 · November 23, 2012 1:19AM

<< 

<< Oh, btw...what does TPG...stand for??? >>

Third Party Grading like PCGS or NGC. >>

Thank you kindly for the abbreviation...defined!!!
Take it easy.....Lion

how do you determine how much damage makes a coin ungradeable ?

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