Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Unfortunately we didn't know any better when we got started. I contacted them about returning the coins when I received them back from PCGS. All of the coins had been purchased 4 months or less from the time I sent them off to PCGS. Unfortunately the coins were at pcgs much longer than usual due to so many having issues. I understand that they list that they are raw coins and yada yada yada. They misrepresented them, they agreed to a partial refund, and now they are giving me the run around. I do not let this affect my daily life. It is the principal. I paid the price of admission, have learned a lot, and thank god this has not driven me away from collecting. @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD I work very hard for my money. I was excited and this is something I was doing with my father. When I said the money is not a big deal to us I mean that I am not going to have to go let this give me an ulcer and this will not take food away from my children's mouths. The coins are not junk. The ones we still have are still nice coins and we enjoy them even if they are details coins. Thanks for all of the feedback and I hope this helps others out there who are just getting started.
Next...to all the folks here who can't believe how the OP and his pops could spend thousands of dollars on junk coins over a long period of time from the internet...all you have to do for your answer is read what the OP wrote himself..."the money is not a big deal to us." Haven't you seen how people act in department stores with that same mentality???...Think Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack
not sure how gsc gets top dollar for their no reserve raw coins all the time, I watched it for years and it amazed me. I just wonder if someone inside is bidding their auctions up?
I would request that the payment be in all 90% silver, xxxx face value. All dealers have that laying around and it does not matter the condition, culls or otherwise. They may respond favorable to this change.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
Beerock--First, I agree that you got off better than most and I commend you for that. Second, get what you can and then move on. Legally, given the disclaimer, you would be throwing good money after bad pursuing this further with a lawyer, IMO. We have all learned our lessons along the way. You simply appear to have jumped into the deep end of the pool to early. Third, this site will give you some good advice, and even harsh advice, but most of it is accurate. Fourth, some of the best and most reputable dealers in the US post here as well. Ask for advice and find a reputable dealer or several to work with. Good luck.
Fact is GSC seems to have all the "good" looking coins that could not make the grade. They don't say that but I hear alot of this. Glad they worked with you. We will see now that the cat is out of the bag they might not care to anymore. Hush money aside. Sorry to hear this happened to you. Glad you have resolution on a bunch of it.
Just because they note in small print that they don't guarantee, if they are implying with the marketing and other tactics it is still a bait & switch.
Hope you feel better about this soon and get your property back
The crew at GSC are primarily break dancers. Cut them some slack. So you didnt get the coins you thought you were getting. Big deal. Thats the advice I got.
@Beerock no worries and I salute that you work hard for your monies...I know how hard it is to make it happen...I just wanted to put it into perspective for others here who would never do something like this, unless they were in a candy store...like I said before, I hope you are made whole, and you certainly found the right place to learn by coming here...also, "junk coins" is just a numismatic street term for "details" coins sold as BU GEMS or problem-free, that's all
They probably do this to 100s if not 1000s of collectors, some who never know any better and others who take their losses and lose interest in the hobby. Real parasite and there's got to be something that can be done.
I think the best way to learn the ins and outs about coin buying, be it on-line or in person at a show is to sign up for the grading course at the ANA Summer Seminar. @Beerock - you should be an ANA member already. Not only will you learn grading, you will get honest information from people that been there and done that. Short of that, go to shows, look at auction lots and talk with the dealers there. Enjoy!
@EagleEye said:
I think the best way to learn the ins and outs about coin buying, be it on-line or in person at a show is to sign up for the grading course at the ANA Summer Seminar. @Beerock - you should be an ANA member already. Not only will you learn grading, you will get honest information from people that been there and done that. Short of that, go to shows, look at auction lots and talk with the dealers there. Enjoy!
Or a simple google search on Great Southern eBay would have saved you right out of the gate.
Perhaps questions to the membership should have been asked PRIOR to buying these coins. After this length of time (it took longer than expected at PCGS because of so many having issues???....okaaayyyy), I'd be thankful I got anything back at ALL, and move on. Hopefully, this has taught you a lesson that there's a reason a raw coin, with $XX 'price' for a graded coin, is only at $YY on ebay.
Someone else said it best....PCGS bullion coins, at MS69 grade, as close to melt as possible, for you. Sure, it'll be 'boring' compared to the big coins you've BEEN buying, but, look at how THAT turned out...
A 10-20% profit on numismatic coins should be plenty for any volume seller. Some say what was paid for a coin is irrelevant to the sell price, but I say that the purchase price and then the auctioning of those items especially with likely shill activity is part of the fraud or con. A sharp analyst would be able to connect the dots and take real action against GS, instead of the usual attempts to subvert legal process with giving some money back.
I'm responding to get this thread back to the top, and maybe save someone else from the temptation to bid on their stuff. (Unless you are very skilled and courageous cherry picker) I am lucky to have been told early enough in my collection building to save me from the problems of which we hear every so often with this company. I make the special effort to exclude them from my searches on eBay so as not to even have to look at their stuff. Just another great reason why this forum is so valuable.
@coinpalice said:
not sure how gsc gets top dollar for their no reserve raw coins all the time, I watched it for years and it amazed me. I just wonder if someone inside is bidding their auctions up?
I don't know but what is it 18% or 20% fee now? That is a big incentive for shell bidding. They make more then the seller just crazy. Hope it works out for you there are better ways to buy coins but learn how to grade and look for problems 1st don't spent a dime till then.
RE: "Real parasite and there's got to be something that can be done."
The ANA attempted standardization in the 1970s and set up first authentication and then grading structures, modeled on the APS "Expertization" plan. However, the ANA has never had much of a backbone, and no long range concept of protecting present and future collectors and numismatic consumers. Therefor, the entire thing passed into commercial hands, and all resemblance of "grading standards" vanished.
Without agreed upon standards, it is close to impossible to identify and legally punish those who prey on consumers. (PS: "Standards" do not require legislation - only "market acceptance.")
Next...to all the folks here who can't believe how the OP and his pops could spend thousands of dollars on junk coins over a long period of time from the internet...all you have to do for your answer is read what the OP wrote himself..."the money is not a big deal to us." Haven't you seen how people act in department stores with that same mentality???...Think Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack
I am going argue the contrary opinion and state that great southern are a necessary outlet for our hobby and the modern equivalent of those jumbo adds out of coin world of our youth.
Without them repackaging / cracking out coins and reselling them to the novice layer of the hobby, many of us would have the liquidity of our mistakes free fall overnight. Cracking out meh coins isn’t really that different than cracking out good coins and chasing label buyers, price buyers, registry point slaves or any other buyer group that doesn’t really get the big picture of the hobby and are preyed upon by various dealer groups... some of who many of you swear are just amazing people.
Newbs are going to be suckered. At best they typically overpay for decent coins from a “legit” dealer. Middle the get real but so-so coins from a GS type dealer and then there are the real predator dealers selling XF peace dollars as MS67 or just fake coins.
The title of this thread should be "Why coin collectors drink LLLXXXVII".
Unfortunately there are many coin dealers that use this same business model.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It is admirable and noble to try to prevent people from being scammed, but ultimately what people do with their money is their own business. Bottom-feeders exist in EVERY market. Education is the key. Some are willing to acquire it. Others blindly blunder from one catastrophe to another. Free markets only work if the opportunity to make mistakes also exists.
In addition the problem coins and over-graded material they are misrepresenting, you have the ebay people enabling this unethical behavior by permitting uncertified coins which very few other auction venues allow. It is a steep learning curve and the role played by the grading services to place proper values on coins with straight grade is invaluable. We've had a lot of these raw coin and currency sellers gaming the system. I don't know why buyers have no due diligence method to properly analyse their purchases like this in a timely fashion. When an $800 problem coin gets sold as a $2000 no problem coin you have a bad contract, good faith is integral to business practice.
@logger7 said:
In addition the problem coins and over-graded material they are misrepresenting, you have the ebay people enabling this unethical behavior by permitting uncertified coins which very few other auction venues allow. It is a steep learning curve and the role played by the grading services to place proper values on coins with straight grade is invaluable. We've had a lot of these raw coin and currency sellers gaming the system. I don't know why buyers have no due diligence method to properly analyse their purchases like this in a timely fashion. When an $800 problem coin gets sold as a $2000 no problem coin you have a bad contract, good faith is integral to business practice.
There are coins that are not worth grading. Do you attend shows? There are WAY more raw coins than graded for sale. There is NO WAY eBay should ban all raw coins.
To play devils advocate here for a second- did GSC really do anything wrong? While most here are advanced numismatists and are somewhat knowledgeable in what they collect, also further knowing to buy certified when possible so that way there is the least surprises- we sometimes forget that there is a tremendous coin market out there that specifically deals in problem coins. Collecting on a budget is a real thing and you get more coins for your buck when you are willing to accept a coin that has a couple of scratches.. or perhaps a cleaning or a slight rim bump.
There are thousands of people whom collect coins like this and love it. I would imagine that if the coin was described as BU in the description that in fact the coin truly is BU. Perhaps it might not straight grade but that does not mean the coin is not BU.
GSC states clearly that if you are looking for certified coins then you should buy them as such. They also offer a VERY GENEROUS 30 day return policy for all coins. 30 days should be enough time for anyone to evaluate a purchase and decide whether they like it enough to keep it or not.
While I too have lost significant money on raw purchases made from GSC over the years, I readily admit that the fault is my own and while those coins would not specifically fit in what I look for these days, other people would love to own them.
I point this all out to remind some who forget that coins are an enjoyment shared by thousands if not more many times in the raw form. We are quick to criticize coins that do not straight grade and are only focusing on dollars and making money etc and not keeping in mind that raw with problems is enjoyable as well.
Come to think of it, I have a nice small collection of ancients ive been putting together and almost ALL are slightly impaired in one form or another and I so enjoy finding and collecting them
Let me ask it this way, why when two parties enter into a deal to trade a coin for cash, if the buyer makes out he is savvy, when the dealer makes out he is a crook.
Cac is doing enough damage to the total liquidity of the market, shame the bulk dealers out of business at your own peril.
It is the price shopppers and newbs and majority of the market that supplements the tiny pool of advance collectors and make the spreads so small on the buy vs sale aspect of the hobby.
There is no reward without risk and there is no perfect system.
Beyond the return period I frankly believe they don’t owe you anything. They are not responsible for your expertise or in this matter lack of it.
What they are supposed to patiently wait while you send coins to a TPG to find out what they grade? Just buy PCGS coins! Raw coins are risky, the numismatic literature warns of this.
Take responsibility, accept your mistake and move on. Raw big ticket coins can be a red flag. Why did an experienced dealer not get them graded duh? There is no Santa in Numismatics.
HEY...lets close it out with this: A member of the "PCGS Board of Experts" once took advantage of my ignorance to the tune of about $6500. It was MY OWN FAULT for selling my coin to this person as and not getting the coin graded myself. CASE CLOSED.
Same in any market. Would you buy an Audubon print without putting it under a Lupe to look for a dot pattern? Do your homework or suffer the consequences.
There have been cases where an astute collector here purchased what was listed as a BU Buffalo nickel turned out to be a GEM PROOF. There are diamonds in the ruff. With that stated though keep in mind GSC is today what ACG was in the 80's.
Are you suggesting ebay should only allow TPG Coins be listed?
@logger7 said:
In addition the problem coins and over-graded material they are misrepresenting, you have the ebay people enabling this unethical behavior by permitting uncertified coins which very few other auction venues allow. It is a steep learning curve and the role played by the grading services to place proper values on coins with straight grade is invaluable. We've had a lot of these raw coin and currency sellers gaming the system. I don't know why buyers have no due diligence method to properly analyse their purchases like this in a timely fashion. When an $800 problem coin gets sold as a $2000 no problem coin you have a bad contract, good faith is integral to business practice.
I agree with most of what you say. Many collectors knowingly buy problem coins. The problem with GSC is they misrepresent their coins with juiced up pictures and do not reveal any problems not detectable from their pictures in the description!
@joebb21 said:
To play devils advocate here for a second- did GSC really do anything wrong? While most here are advanced numismatists and are somewhat knowledgeable in what they collect, also further knowing to buy certified when possible so that way there is the least surprises- we sometimes forget that there is a tremendous coin market out there that specifically deals in problem coins. Collecting on a budget is a real thing and you get more coins for your buck when you are willing to accept a coin that has a couple of scratches.. or perhaps a cleaning or a slight rim bump.
There are thousands of people whom collect coins like this and love it. I would imagine that if the coin was described as BU in the description that in fact the coin truly is BU. Perhaps it might not straight grade but that does not mean the coin is not BU.
GSC states clearly that if you are looking for certified coins then you should buy them as such. They also offer a VERY GENEROUS 30 day return policy for all coins. 30 days should be enough time for anyone to evaluate a purchase and decide whether they like it enough to keep it or not.
While I too have lost significant money on raw purchases made from GSC over the years, I readily admit that the fault is my own and while those coins would not specifically fit in what I look for these days, other people would love to own them.
I point this all out to remind some who forget that coins are an enjoyment shared by thousands if not more many times in the raw form. We are quick to criticize coins that do not straight grade and are only focusing on dollars and making money etc and not keeping in mind that raw with problems is enjoyable as well.
Come to think of it, I have a nice small collection of ancients ive been putting together and almost ALL are slightly impaired in one form or another and I so enjoy finding and collecting them
@amwldcoin said:
I agree with most of what you say. Many collectors knowingly buy problem coins. The problem with GSC is they misrepresent their coins with juiced up pictures and do not reveal any problems not detectable from their pictures in the description!
@joebb21 said:
To play devils advocate here for a second- did GSC really do anything wrong? While most here are advanced numismatists and are somewhat knowledgeable in what they collect, also further knowing to buy certified when possible so that way there is the least surprises- we sometimes forget that there is a tremendous coin market out there that specifically deals in problem coins. Collecting on a budget is a real thing and you get more coins for your buck when you are willing to accept a coin that has a couple of scratches.. or perhaps a cleaning or a slight rim bump.
There are thousands of people whom collect coins like this and love it. I would imagine that if the coin was described as BU in the description that in fact the coin truly is BU. Perhaps it might not straight grade but that does not mean the coin is not BU.
GSC states clearly that if you are looking for certified coins then you should buy them as such. They also offer a VERY GENEROUS 30 day return policy for all coins. 30 days should be enough time for anyone to evaluate a purchase and decide whether they like it enough to keep it or not.
While I too have lost significant money on raw purchases made from GSC over the years, I readily admit that the fault is my own and while those coins would not specifically fit in what I look for these days, other people would love to own them.
I point this all out to remind some who forget that coins are an enjoyment shared by thousands if not more many times in the raw form. We are quick to criticize coins that do not straight grade and are only focusing on dollars and making money etc and not keeping in mind that raw with problems is enjoyable as well.
Come to think of it, I have a nice small collection of ancients ive been putting together and almost ALL are slightly impaired in one form or another and I so enjoy finding and collecting them
While you are correct their photos are meant to juice a coins look, they allow you 30 days to view it in hand and return it if you dont like it. They also dont make any claims about the coins likely grade other than stating basic UNC or BU which Im sure the coins actually are.
@amwldcoin said:
I agree with most of what you say. Many collectors knowingly buy problem coins. The problem with GSC is they misrepresent their coins with juiced up pictures and do not reveal any problems not detectable from their pictures in the description!
@joebb21 said:
To play devils advocate here for a second- did GSC really do anything wrong? While most here are advanced numismatists and are somewhat knowledgeable in what they collect, also further knowing to buy certified when possible so that way there is the least surprises- we sometimes forget that there is a tremendous coin market out there that specifically deals in problem coins. Collecting on a budget is a real thing and you get more coins for your buck when you are willing to accept a coin that has a couple of scratches.. or perhaps a cleaning or a slight rim bump.
There are thousands of people whom collect coins like this and love it. I would imagine that if the coin was described as BU in the description that in fact the coin truly is BU. Perhaps it might not straight grade but that does not mean the coin is not BU.
GSC states clearly that if you are looking for certified coins then you should buy them as such. They also offer a VERY GENEROUS 30 day return policy for all coins. 30 days should be enough time for anyone to evaluate a purchase and decide whether they like it enough to keep it or not.
While I too have lost significant money on raw purchases made from GSC over the years, I readily admit that the fault is my own and while those coins would not specifically fit in what I look for these days, other people would love to own them.
I point this all out to remind some who forget that coins are an enjoyment shared by thousands if not more many times in the raw form. We are quick to criticize coins that do not straight grade and are only focusing on dollars and making money etc and not keeping in mind that raw with problems is enjoyable as well.
Come to think of it, I have a nice small collection of ancients ive been putting together and almost ALL are slightly impaired in one form or another and I so enjoy finding and collecting them
While you are correct their photos are meant to juice a coins look, they allow you 30 days to view it in hand and return it if you dont like it. They also dont make any claims about the coins likely grade other than stating basic UNC or BU which Im sure the coins actually are.
@amwldcoin I think what makes these guys slimy is that they price the coins as if they are MS but without the grading fee. So anyone who is looking for a MS64 and has an idea what it looks like, if you search them you will find that coin and it priced accordingly. If they had not tried to grade then ok. But many who have inside knowledge have stated they crack em out to sell raw. They find the problem coin, crack it out and sell it as if they don't know That is the problem.
IMHO this is one of several companies (not dealers IMHO) that give legit dealers a bad name..are they crooks? who knows, but know them too well, a public records search shows the owner as
KENNETH H DITTMANN CEO 9401 ROBERTS DRIVE APT 296, DUNWOODY, GA, 30350, USA
at the LEAST they take advantage of those who do not have numismatic knowledge...
@Kkathyl said: @amwldcoin I think what makes these guys slimy is that they price the coins as if they are MS but without the grading fee. So anyone who is looking for a MS64 and has an idea what it looks like, if you search them you will find that coin and it priced accordingly. If they had not tried to grade then ok. But many who have inside knowledge have stated they crack em out to sell raw. They find the problem coin, crack it out and sell it as if they don't know That is the problem.
@braddick said:
There have been cases where an astute collector here purchased what was listed as a BU Buffalo nickel turned out to be a GEM PROOF. There are diamonds in the ruff. With that stated though keep in mind GSC is today what ACG was in the 80's.
I know that person and he cherried more than one matte proof from these crooked guys. Good for them!
Thanks for all of the feedback. I posted here for 2 reasons. 1. To help new collectors such as myself avoid making the same mistakes. 2. They have my coin and owe me credit and have had plenty of time to get them to me. I already stated several times that I paid the price of admission for the lessons I've learned and I don't expect them to take back any other coins. My question was for feedback on what I can do to get what is rightfully mine back. I have contacted the BBB and done a few other things and GSC has responded and has stated they are in the process of taking care of this. I have heard this before and hope to get this wrapped up once and for all in the near future. Once again, thank you for all of the feedback, be it constructive or not, and thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this site.
@Beerock said:
Thanks for all of the feedback. I posted here for 2 reasons. 1. To help new collectors such as myself avoid making the same mistakes. 2. They have my coin and owe me credit and have had plenty of time to get them to me. I already stated several times that I paid the price of admission for the lessons I've learned and I don't expect them to take back any other coins. My question was for feedback on what I can do to get what is rightfully mine back. I have contacted the BBB and done a few other things and GSC has responded and has stated they are in the process of taking care of this. I have heard this before and hope to get this wrapped up once and for all in the near future. Once again, thank you for all of the feedback, be it constructive or not, and thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this site.
Comments
...."but it looks good on you!"
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Unfortunately we didn't know any better when we got started. I contacted them about returning the coins when I received them back from PCGS. All of the coins had been purchased 4 months or less from the time I sent them off to PCGS. Unfortunately the coins were at pcgs much longer than usual due to so many having issues. I understand that they list that they are raw coins and yada yada yada. They misrepresented them, they agreed to a partial refund, and now they are giving me the run around. I do not let this affect my daily life. It is the principal. I paid the price of admission, have learned a lot, and thank god this has not driven me away from collecting. @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD I work very hard for my money. I was excited and this is something I was doing with my father. When I said the money is not a big deal to us I mean that I am not going to have to go let this give me an ulcer and this will not take food away from my children's mouths. The coins are not junk. The ones we still have are still nice coins and we enjoy them even if they are details coins. Thanks for all of the feedback and I hope this helps others out there who are just getting started.
not sure how gsc gets top dollar for their no reserve raw coins all the time, I watched it for years and it amazed me. I just wonder if someone inside is bidding their auctions up?
I would request that the payment be in all 90% silver, xxxx face value. All dealers have that laying around and it does not matter the condition, culls or otherwise. They may respond favorable to this change.
bob
Beerock--First, I agree that you got off better than most and I commend you for that. Second, get what you can and then move on. Legally, given the disclaimer, you would be throwing good money after bad pursuing this further with a lawyer, IMO. We have all learned our lessons along the way. You simply appear to have jumped into the deep end of the pool to early. Third, this site will give you some good advice, and even harsh advice, but most of it is accurate. Fourth, some of the best and most reputable dealers in the US post here as well. Ask for advice and find a reputable dealer or several to work with. Good luck.
Tom
wish people WOULD STOP buying from these people. THat would put them out of business!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
This has been suggested (opined) many times...
Smitten with DBLCs.
Fact is GSC seems to have all the "good" looking coins that could not make the grade. They don't say that but I hear alot of this. Glad they worked with you. We will see now that the cat is out of the bag they might not care to anymore. Hush money aside. Sorry to hear this happened to you. Glad you have resolution on a bunch of it.
Just because they note in small print that they don't guarantee, if they are implying with the marketing and other tactics it is still a bait & switch.
Hope you feel better about this soon and get your property back
Was any of this from EBAY
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
The crew at GSC are primarily break dancers. Cut them some slack. So you didnt get the coins you thought you were getting. Big deal. Thats the advice I got.
@Beerock no worries and I salute that you work hard for your monies...I know how hard it is to make it happen...I just wanted to put it into perspective for others here who would never do something like this, unless they were in a candy store...like I said before, I hope you are made whole, and you certainly found the right place to learn by coming here...also, "junk coins" is just a numismatic street term for "details" coins sold as BU GEMS or problem-free, that's all
I hope you'll find a fair resolve @Beerock Coin collecting is fun but requires a lot of due diligence and caution. Good luck with the next hunt
They probably do this to 100s if not 1000s of collectors, some who never know any better and others who take their losses and lose interest in the hobby. Real parasite and there's got to be something that can be done.
I think the best way to learn the ins and outs about coin buying, be it on-line or in person at a show is to sign up for the grading course at the ANA Summer Seminar. @Beerock - you should be an ANA member already. Not only will you learn grading, you will get honest information from people that been there and done that. Short of that, go to shows, look at auction lots and talk with the dealers there. Enjoy!
Or a simple google search on Great Southern eBay would have saved you right out of the gate.
Perhaps questions to the membership should have been asked PRIOR to buying these coins. After this length of time (it took longer than expected at PCGS because of so many having issues???....okaaayyyy), I'd be thankful I got anything back at ALL, and move on. Hopefully, this has taught you a lesson that there's a reason a raw coin, with $XX 'price' for a graded coin, is only at $YY on ebay.
Someone else said it best....PCGS bullion coins, at MS69 grade, as close to melt as possible, for you. Sure, it'll be 'boring' compared to the big coins you've BEEN buying, but, look at how THAT turned out...
A 10-20% profit on numismatic coins should be plenty for any volume seller. Some say what was paid for a coin is irrelevant to the sell price, but I say that the purchase price and then the auctioning of those items especially with likely shill activity is part of the fraud or con. A sharp analyst would be able to connect the dots and take real action against GS, instead of the usual attempts to subvert legal process with giving some money back.
I'm responding to get this thread back to the top, and maybe save someone else from the temptation to bid on their stuff. (Unless you are very skilled and courageous cherry picker) I am lucky to have been told early enough in my collection building to save me from the problems of which we hear every so often with this company. I make the special effort to exclude them from my searches on eBay so as not to even have to look at their stuff. Just another great reason why this forum is so valuable.
A newby trying to beat a dealer at his own game is on a fool's errand.
Exactly. Only buy high value raw coins in person. That is why TPG has become so popular.
100% Positive BST transactions
I don't know but what is it 18% or 20% fee now? That is a big incentive for shell bidding. They make more then the seller just crazy. Hope it works out for you there are better ways to buy coins but learn how to grade and look for problems 1st don't spent a dime till then.
Good luck.
Hoard the keys.
RE: "Real parasite and there's got to be something that can be done."
The ANA attempted standardization in the 1970s and set up first authentication and then grading structures, modeled on the APS "Expertization" plan. However, the ANA has never had much of a backbone, and no long range concept of protecting present and future collectors and numismatic consumers. Therefor, the entire thing passed into commercial hands, and all resemblance of "grading standards" vanished.
Without agreed upon standards, it is close to impossible to identify and legally punish those who prey on consumers. (PS: "Standards" do not require legislation - only "market acceptance.")
True that...you will be most likely getting low end coins that you won't be able to unload and get your money back.
K
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
I am going argue the contrary opinion and state that great southern are a necessary outlet for our hobby and the modern equivalent of those jumbo adds out of coin world of our youth.
Without them repackaging / cracking out coins and reselling them to the novice layer of the hobby, many of us would have the liquidity of our mistakes free fall overnight. Cracking out meh coins isn’t really that different than cracking out good coins and chasing label buyers, price buyers, registry point slaves or any other buyer group that doesn’t really get the big picture of the hobby and are preyed upon by various dealer groups... some of who many of you swear are just amazing people.
Newbs are going to be suckered. At best they typically overpay for decent coins from a “legit” dealer. Middle the get real but so-so coins from a GS type dealer and then there are the real predator dealers selling XF peace dollars as MS67 or just fake coins.
Ebay is the new coin world for the 2000s
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Many of us would have the liquidity of our mistakes free fall overnight?
I love a contrarian argument, just on principle, but that's a bit of a stretch, Crypto.
Hope you are well...Mike
The title of this thread should be "Why coin collectors drink LLLXXXVII".
Unfortunately there are many coin dealers that use this same business model.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It is admirable and noble to try to prevent people from being scammed, but ultimately what people do with their money is their own business. Bottom-feeders exist in EVERY market. Education is the key. Some are willing to acquire it. Others blindly blunder from one catastrophe to another. Free markets only work if the opportunity to make mistakes also exists.
In addition the problem coins and over-graded material they are misrepresenting, you have the ebay people enabling this unethical behavior by permitting uncertified coins which very few other auction venues allow. It is a steep learning curve and the role played by the grading services to place proper values on coins with straight grade is invaluable. We've had a lot of these raw coin and currency sellers gaming the system. I don't know why buyers have no due diligence method to properly analyse their purchases like this in a timely fashion. When an $800 problem coin gets sold as a $2000 no problem coin you have a bad contract, good faith is integral to business practice.
There are coins that are not worth grading. Do you attend shows? There are WAY more raw coins than graded for sale. There is NO WAY eBay should ban all raw coins.
To play devils advocate here for a second- did GSC really do anything wrong? While most here are advanced numismatists and are somewhat knowledgeable in what they collect, also further knowing to buy certified when possible so that way there is the least surprises- we sometimes forget that there is a tremendous coin market out there that specifically deals in problem coins. Collecting on a budget is a real thing and you get more coins for your buck when you are willing to accept a coin that has a couple of scratches.. or perhaps a cleaning or a slight rim bump.
There are thousands of people whom collect coins like this and love it. I would imagine that if the coin was described as BU in the description that in fact the coin truly is BU. Perhaps it might not straight grade but that does not mean the coin is not BU.
GSC states clearly that if you are looking for certified coins then you should buy them as such. They also offer a VERY GENEROUS 30 day return policy for all coins. 30 days should be enough time for anyone to evaluate a purchase and decide whether they like it enough to keep it or not.
While I too have lost significant money on raw purchases made from GSC over the years, I readily admit that the fault is my own and while those coins would not specifically fit in what I look for these days, other people would love to own them.
I point this all out to remind some who forget that coins are an enjoyment shared by thousands if not more many times in the raw form. We are quick to criticize coins that do not straight grade and are only focusing on dollars and making money etc and not keeping in mind that raw with problems is enjoyable as well.
Come to think of it, I have a nice small collection of ancients ive been putting together and almost ALL are slightly impaired in one form or another and I so enjoy finding and collecting them
Let me ask it this way, why when two parties enter into a deal to trade a coin for cash, if the buyer makes out he is savvy, when the dealer makes out he is a crook.
Cac is doing enough damage to the total liquidity of the market, shame the bulk dealers out of business at your own peril.
It is the price shopppers and newbs and majority of the market that supplements the tiny pool of advance collectors and make the spreads so small on the buy vs sale aspect of the hobby.
There is no reward without risk and there is no perfect system.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Beyond the return period I frankly believe they don’t owe you anything. They are not responsible for your expertise or in this matter lack of it.
What they are supposed to patiently wait while you send coins to a TPG to find out what they grade? Just buy PCGS coins! Raw coins are risky, the numismatic literature warns of this.
Take responsibility, accept your mistake and move on. Raw big ticket coins can be a red flag. Why did an experienced dealer not get them graded duh? There is no Santa in Numismatics.
HEY...lets close it out with this: A member of the "PCGS Board of Experts" once took advantage of my ignorance to the tune of about $6500. It was MY OWN FAULT for selling my coin to this person as and not getting the coin graded myself. CASE CLOSED.
Same in any market. Would you buy an Audubon print without putting it under a Lupe to look for a dot pattern? Do your homework or suffer the consequences.
There have been cases where an astute collector here purchased what was listed as a BU Buffalo nickel turned out to be a GEM PROOF. There are diamonds in the ruff. With that stated though keep in mind GSC is today what ACG was in the 80's.
peacockcoins
@BryceM you nailed it. You only know that your still climbing when you fall. If you don't have any lose then your not taking enough risks to succeed.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Are you suggesting ebay should only allow TPG Coins be listed?
I agree with most of what you say. Many collectors knowingly buy problem coins. The problem with GSC is they misrepresent their coins with juiced up pictures and do not reveal any problems not detectable from their pictures in the description!
While you are correct their photos are meant to juice a coins look, they allow you 30 days to view it in hand and return it if you dont like it. They also dont make any claims about the coins likely grade other than stating basic UNC or BU which Im sure the coins actually are.
And hide problems!
@amwldcoin I think what makes these guys slimy is that they price the coins as if they are MS but without the grading fee. So anyone who is looking for a MS64 and has an idea what it looks like, if you search them you will find that coin and it priced accordingly. If they had not tried to grade then ok. But many who have inside knowledge have stated they crack em out to sell raw. They find the problem coin, crack it out and sell it as if they don't know That is the problem.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
IMHO this is one of several companies (not dealers IMHO) that give legit dealers a bad name..are they crooks? who knows, but know them too well, a public records search shows the owner as
KENNETH H DITTMANN CEO 9401 ROBERTS DRIVE APT 296, DUNWOODY, GA, 30350, USA
at the LEAST they take advantage of those who do not have numismatic knowledge...
CFA, LSU AND ANA
This outfit gives Texas a bad name, to bad they couldn't have stayed in Louisiana...dang you Katrina!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
But they are in GA so???????
Delete post. I'm uninformed.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
That's the point I was trying to make!
I know that person and he cherried more than one matte proof from these crooked guys. Good for them!
Thanks for all of the feedback. I posted here for 2 reasons. 1. To help new collectors such as myself avoid making the same mistakes. 2. They have my coin and owe me credit and have had plenty of time to get them to me. I already stated several times that I paid the price of admission for the lessons I've learned and I don't expect them to take back any other coins. My question was for feedback on what I can do to get what is rightfully mine back. I have contacted the BBB and done a few other things and GSC has responded and has stated they are in the process of taking care of this. I have heard this before and hope to get this wrapped up once and for all in the near future. Once again, thank you for all of the feedback, be it constructive or not, and thank you all for sharing your knowledge on this site.
Send em a link to this discussion!