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2018 NFL Regular Season Thread

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  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 7:14AM

    i realize the fourth best one could turn out in the long run to be the best one.

    When none of the 4 is clearly better than the other three, all the analysis in the world is still going to require a leap of faith.

    A main reason for the Giants' struggles last season was the absolute lack of any viable running game. Manning will be much better with a bona fide running game.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 11:13AM

    With Giants O-line issues I think they go QB all day and Sunday with their top pick.....I think Cleveland goes Darnold #1 and then gets Barkley at #4 .....maybe the Browns go Rosen #1

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 7:27AM

    @grote15 said:
    i realize the fourth best one could turn out in the long run to be the best one.

    When none of the 4 is clearly better than the other three, all the analysis in the world is still going to require a leap of faith.

    Eli was essentially done in NY last season until all of the fans started crying about how he was treated then NY put him back in. They would be crazy to pass on a QB when they own the #2 pick in the draft. They would have the luxury of choosing from 3 of the top 4 QBs in the draft after the Browns take one and they might not be in that position again in the near future.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @grote15 said:
    i realize the fourth best one could turn out in the long run to be the best one.

    When none of the 4 is clearly better than the other three, all the analysis in the world is still going to require a leap of faith.

    Eli was essentially done in NY last season until all of the fans started crying about how he was treated then NY put him back in. They would be crazy to pass on a QB when they own the #2 pick in the draft. They would have the luxury of choosing from 3 of the top 4 QBs in the draft after the Browns take one and they might not be in that position again in the near future.

    I disagree. He struggled on a very bad team but his benching was more the result of desperation by an inept head coach. I do believe he can play at a high level for a couple more seasons with the right supporting cast.

    Drafting a QB would not be a terrible move but I just don't have a good feeling about any one of these four QBs. Back in 1998, Manning and Leaf were considered by all the scouts as QB 1 and QB 1a, with some even believing Leaf was QB 1, and we all know how that turned out. Time will tell which decision was the right one.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @stevek said:

    @erikthredd said:

    @stevek said:

    @Justacommeman said:

    @stevek said:

    @Justacommeman said:
    Personally I wouldn’t take Barkley that high .Running backs have the shortest length of careers of any position in the NFL. I’d go Chubb and a QB combo at the top of the draft if I were the Browns.

    The last time a RB was chosen first overall was Ki-Jana Carter in 1995 He was a “sure” thing. Before that it was Bo Jackson in 1986. Broke
    his hip early in his NFL career. Before
    That it was Billy Sims in 1980. Running backs just don’t get picked at the very top of the draft. A total of 3 in the last 28 drafts.

    mark

    Good points. Another point is running backs are ready to play in the NFL right out of the box, so to speak. There is little to no learning curve needed at the running back position.

    A smart GM will have a young, groomed QB in place for a few years, even just as a backup, while solidifying the offensive line, and THEN draft a running back. Of course these days, drafted QBs seem to be starting earlier and earlier for a variety of reasons depending on the team.

    I realize the NFL GMs know all that, but the bad ones think they can get cute, and do it differently for success. So it will be interesting to see what Cleveland does...get cute and draft Barkley first, or get smart and draft first who they think is the best QB.

    If there was a stud OT available in this year's draft, i don't think Cleveland should even take Barkley at fourth. But this year it seems like there isn't a stud tackle out there, so I've got no problem with the Browns taking Barkley at fourth. Barkley would of course help their offense, as well as the ticket sales.

    The more I think about it if Cleveland stays pat with the first and 4th pick they will go QB at 1 and Chubb at 4 perhaps. The Jets and Giants are picking behind them and they are both picking QB's. The Browns could get the their pick of QB's and still l land Chubb or Barkley or anyone else as they will all be there. They are sitting pretty. Just as likely is another team that’s QB hungry trading up for Clevelands 4th pick to snatch the 4th QB of the draft. It could really go QB,QB, QB and QB with the first 4 picks

    mark

    You may turn out to be right with QB as the first 4 picks. I don't recall that ever happening.

    The Browns wouldn't do badly to trade down for their #4 pick and hope that Mike McGlinchey would be there. The kid has some flaws, but he seems like the type of player who can be "coached up" in the pros and become a solid player. I realize they just signed Chris Hubbard, but a football team can never be too strong at the OT position.

    They could probably trade #4 to the Bills for #'s 12,22 & 56 giving Buffalo the chance to grab their QB at 4. At this point the Browns would then have three 1st rounders & four 2nd rounders. Any decent GM can do a quick rebuild after drafting 7 players in the top 64 picks.

    The Browns would do that deal in a second. I'm not sure the Bills would give up that much though.

    From everything i've read the past couple weeks Buffalo's plan is to possibly move up for a QB and its possible the top 4 QBs could all be gone by the 5th pick,Denver. I don't think it would be too much for the Bills either who have two picks in each of the top 3 rounds.
    For comparison look at the Bills-Chiefs 2017 draft trade that got KC Mahomes. KC traded #27,#91 & a 2018 1st for the Bills pick at 10.... Two 1sts & a 3rd just to get to 10.
    If the first three picks are all QBs,that Browns pick at 4 becomes pretty valuable to any other teams who are still looking for a QB.

    I'll amend my previous comment to...if the first round 4th pick is on the clock for the Browns, and the QB the Bills like is still there, then I think the Bills would be willing to do the deal you mentioned.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 8:17AM

    @grote15 said:

    @erikthredd said:

    @grote15 said:
    i realize the fourth best one could turn out in the long run to be the best one.

    When none of the 4 is clearly better than the other three, all the analysis in the world is still going to require a leap of faith.

    Eli was essentially done in NY last season until all of the fans started crying about how he was treated then NY put him back in. They would be crazy to pass on a QB when they own the #2 pick in the draft. They would have the luxury of choosing from 3 of the top 4 QBs in the draft after the Browns take one and they might not be in that position again in the near future.

    I disagree. He struggled on a very bad team but his benching was more the result of desperation by an inept head coach. I do believe he can play at a high level for a couple more seasons with the right supporting cast.

    Drafting a QB would not be a terrible move but I just don't have a good feeling about any one of these four QBs. Back in 1998, Manning and Leaf were considered by all the scouts as QB 1 and QB 1a, with some even believing Leaf was QB 1, and we all know how that turned out. Time will tell which decision was the right one.

    No way the Giants head coach benches the team's two time SB winning QB who was arguably the best QB in team history without approval from ownership. John Mara saw how the wind blew after the benching then basically told Mcadoo to take the fall on his way out the door.

    As for these four QBs and which one is better, none of us are NFL scouts and have no idea which is. My point was there are four "first round" QBs and once they start coming off the board, teams looking for one start to panic so they overpay.
    Just look at what the Bears gave up last year to move ONE spot from 3 to 2 so they could get Trubisky. A 1st,3rd,4th & a 2018 3rd to move ONE spot.
    All three first round QBs in 2017 were all trade-ups to draft them and none of those 3 were considered franchise altering QBs. They were in the same boat as the current top 4 with Trubisky slightly ahead.

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 11:13AM

    I dont think the Browns are the organization to turn the Wyoming kid into platinum and I think they even recognize that..... I think they got fried on Johnny Man and are leary of the same makeup of Mr. Oklahoma even possessing similar dimensions as well 6 feet tall etc.....SO its Darnold or Rosen.... So that first domino will dictate which QB the G-men grab and on and on.....I agree largely with you guuys above.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say this group could all be looking to grab a QB in round 1
    Browns
    Giants
    Jets
    Broncos
    Bills
    Cardinals

    Then you have this group that could all be looking for a QB to develop or as a backup with the off chance one moves up in the first for one like KC did with Mahomes last year.
    Saints
    Chargers
    Redskins
    Dolphins
    Patriots
    Bengals
    Steelers

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 10:17AM

    It was no secret here in New York that McAdoo was not a Manning fan. Benching him and the way it was handled was one of the reasons he got fired.

    I think there is a good chance the Giants will draft a QB but I also think there is a chance they may go for who is clearly the best back in the draft to address a glaring weakness and take their chances finding Eli's replacement this year or next.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 10:37AM

    I still think they go QB but its a definite possibility they might go RB to give Eli a "last run." I just don't see the logic behind taking a stud RB when a team has OL problems & no QB/below average QB play though. We'll see though,it sucks the draft is over a month away.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Then again maybe the Browns will draft a punter #1. They may figure since the punter has the highest yards gained average per play on a football team, IE a 50 yard punt with no return being a 50 yard gain in field position, that a punter is the most important position on the field and hence should be their first pick in the draft.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 11:07AM

    i simply can't agree with some of you guys. Giants rushing offense the past 5 years:

    2013 - 29th
    2014 - 23rd
    2015 - 19th
    2016 - 29th
    2017 - 26th

    no running game to speak of + losing every viable receiver on the roster = Eli is very fortunate not to be pushing up daisies after last season. i'm not saying he is even close to being the quarterback he was once was, but i assure you the QB position is not the G-men's main area of concern after the past 5 seasons. give him Barkley & a healthy OBJ and he'll be just fine. pass on Barkley and allow every defense to once again pin their ears back because they have zero respect for the Giants' running game, and sure, another subpar season from him is to be expected.

    if the Giants don't select SB (if available), they deserve their fate

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 12:15PM

    The Giants have had one winning season since 2012 and having a rookie RB run for 1000yds compared to 600-800 probably isn't going to change that. They have a new head coach/GM tandem who are probably gonna want their own QB going forward while not tying down their fate with a 37yr old QB who outside of two really great playoff runs his career has been pretty mediocre. Drafting a stud RB doesn't change the horrible OL play or all the WR getting injured.
    We can argue this all day and no one will be "right" and there is just as good a chance of NY trading out of that spot as their is for them drafting a QB or RB there.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And some of you guys are living in the past with the NFL - it's a passing league now, not a rushing league.

    All i keep hearing about out there from those who say Barkley should be the first pick or the Giants pick...is look at how great Ezekiel Elliott is. Well, how many playoff wins do the Cowboys have since drafting "Zeke" at number 4 in the first round two years ago? That's right, squat, that's how many. And the Cowboys have a better overall team than the Giants.

    So guess how many playoff wins the Giants are going to have with Barkley as running back, without first revamping their team in other positions, including the quarterback. That's right, you guessed it right again.

    Frankly, as an Eagles fan, i don't really give a chit what the Browns do - they're in the AFC. The Giants, we of course have to play them twice a season, and therefore I hope the Giants are naive enough to draft Barkley. Because that move would set them back another 3 or 4 years and I wouldn't have to worry about them competing for a playoff spot against my Eagles.

    That being said, the Giants management isn't that pathetic - they will draft a QB, no matter what the Browns do.

    If the Jets grab Barkley, i guess many Jets fans will be rejoicing...but watch how they would again be a team with a losing record in the 2018 season and for some years to come. However the Jets moved up to take a QB, and they will take a QB, whether Barkley is available or not.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You could make an argument for both the Browns or Giants picking Barkley but the Jets trading #6 & three 2nd round picks to draft a RB makes no sense at all. That is just way to much draft capital for a position where you can plug a mid to late round RB and possibly get the same type of production.

    Here is a good breakdown of what we've been all talking about here:
    http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/272042/where-top-six-in-nfl-draft-stand-whos-taking-qbs-or-could-trade-down

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 12:31PM

    Steve, I have already had this discussion with erikthredd about Zeke. They may not have won any playoff games with him -- yet -- but I can definitively tell you what they are without him...............a group full of guys setting up tee times once the playoffs roll around.

    If Zeke hadn't been suspended last year, the Cowboys would have been in the playoffs. Without him, they looked a carbon copy of the Giants and missed out on postseason play because of it. Period. End of story. The first 8 games with Zeke, the Cowboys averaged 28+ points per game and went 5-3. When Zeke went out, they abruptly lost 3 straight games to playoff teams and scored a grand total of 22 points in those 3 games. Are you really going to sit there and argue Zeke's value? lol

    If that's not enough....

    The top 10 rushing offenses in 2017 were Jacksonville, Dallas, Philadelphia, Carolina, New Orleans, Buffalo, Minnesota, LA Rams, Kansas City, and New England. Notice a commonality? EVERY one of those teams made the playoffs, with the exception of.........wait for it......wait for it........Dallas. Had Zeke not been suspended, the top ten RUSHING teams in the NFL would have made the playoffs.

    A friendly little wager on what the Giants will do at #2 if Barkley is available? Anyone? I'm always up for a bet......lol.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 The Giants can draft as many RBs as they want but if their defense plays like it did last year we'll be having this argument again a year from now.
    You mention no running game & injured receivers but that D went from great to horrible in one season.
    2016: 10th in Total Defense, 2nd in Points Allowed
    2017: 31st in Total Defense,27th in Points Allowed

    Drafting a rookie RB 2nd doesn't do anything for those stats above.

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    Dallas Cowboys have a top echelon O-line for Zeke....they have for 5 -6 years....G-men are rebuilding the O-line & G-men aren't going to draft a RB IMO ~when they are that high of a pick in the 1st round you get value and that is QB land... Giants are a throwing team 1st ....thats not changing with this draft b/c of Barkley..... RB's are a bad investment and are interchangeable ... If they do get a running back they would get a Sony Michel lower in the draft and a better value pick. There is not a chance in hell Id pay Barkley 1st round money with the Giants current O-line status as it is..... just My opinion and if they do go for Barkley they better draft or pick up some big talented lugs for the O-line. Fast.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:
    @galaxy27 The Giants can draft as many RBs as they want but if their defense plays like it did last year we'll be having this argument again a year from now.
    You mention no running game & injured receivers but that D went from great to horrible in one season.
    2016: 10th in Total Defense, 2nd in Points Allowed
    2017: 31st in Total Defense,27th in Points Allowed

    Drafting a rookie RB 2nd doesn't do anything for those stats above.

    But an effective running game which enables you to control the clock most certainly does help those stats. I would say that the lack of any running game and keeping the D on the field as a result have a direct impact on defensive performance.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Didn't say it would, Erik. It's only one pick and Saquon Barkley doesn't tackle anyone. All I am going to say is that if the Giants want a puncher's chance of doing anything next year, they better address the running back position before they worry about grooming a new QB.

    Tim, is there any room in our fantasy leagues for these guys? I'd love for them to have high draft picks so they can thin out the QB position while leaving the entire RB crop for me to choose from at #5. Yes please! lol

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:

    @erikthredd said:
    @galaxy27 The Giants can draft as many RBs as they want but if their defense plays like it did last year we'll be having this argument again a year from now.
    You mention no running game & injured receivers but that D went from great to horrible in one season.
    2016: 10th in Total Defense, 2nd in Points Allowed
    2017: 31st in Total Defense,27th in Points Allowed

    Drafting a rookie RB 2nd doesn't do anything for those stats above.

    But an effective running game which enables you to control the clock most certainly does help those stats. I would say that the lack of any running game and keeping the D on the field as a result have a direct impact on defensive performance.

    We can agree to disagree here. Yes a legit running game might help the T.O.P. but its not going to make that much of a difference here. OL is still subpar,the WRs can get injured just as easily as in 2017 and they still have Eli who is probably going to be slightly better than average at best.

    Its ok to disagree on this. Some guys value a run game more than others.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    Didn't say it would, Erik. It's only one pick and Saquon Barkley doesn't tackle anyone. All I am going to say is that if the Giants want a puncher's chance of doing anything next year, they better address the running back position before they worry about grooming a new QB.

    Tim, is there any room in our fantasy leagues for these guys? I'd love for them to have high draft picks so they can thin out the QB position while leaving the entire RB crop for me to choose from at #5. Yes please! lol

    I don't play fantasy football so go gang up on stevek instead ;)

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just watched a 16 beat a 1 the other night.......something I never thought I'd witness in my lifetime. so for some reason, odds, probabilities and past histories don't matter to me at the moment. sometimes you overanalyze and overthink things and you shoot yourself squarely in the foot.

    if I'm a GM and my team has perennially sucked at the running game -- know full well how important that position is for myriad reasons -- then I'm pulling the trigger yesterday if the best available player in the draft is a running back. again, if you think this is merely a passing league and you can completely eshew what's behind your quarterback, then don't take my word for it -- go look up last year's statistics and examine closely the top 10 rushing offenses.

    my .02, and i'm done belaboring this. bring on the draft, baby.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just saw that Suh was visiting the Rams today. It would be pretty scary seeing a Wade Phillips defense adding Ndamukong Suh,Aquib Talib & Marcus Peters in one offseason.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    Steve, I have already had this discussion with erikthredd about Zeke. They may not have won any playoff games with him -- yet -- but I can definitively tell you what they are without him...............a group full of guys setting up tee times once the playoffs roll around.

    If Zeke hadn't been suspended last year, the Cowboys would have been in the playoffs. Without him, they looked a carbon copy of the Giants and missed out on postseason play because of it. Period. End of story. The first 8 games with Zeke, the Cowboys averaged 28+ points per game and went 5-3. When Zeke went out, they abruptly lost 3 straight games to playoff teams and scored a grand total of 22 points in those 3 games. Are you really going to sit there and argue Zeke's value? lol

    If that's not enough....

    The top 10 rushing offenses in 2017 were Jacksonville, Dallas, Philadelphia, Carolina, New Orleans, Buffalo, Minnesota, LA Rams, Kansas City, and New England. Notice a commonality? EVERY one of those teams made the playoffs, with the exception of.........wait for it......wait for it........Dallas. Had Zeke not been suspended, the top ten RUSHING teams in the NFL would have made the playoffs.

    A friendly little wager on what the Giants will do at #2 if Barkley is available? Anyone? I'm always up for a bet......lol.

    Points understood, and your facts are correct (I disagree with some of your opinion), and I think it solidifies my point.

    Nobody should say the Cowboys aren't a better team with Zeke in there. They clearly are better when Zeke is playing. And it's clear that any team in need of a running back would be better having Barkley on their team.

    My point is the days in the NFL are over where a running back can basically take over a football game and win it by himself. He needs a surrounding cast of a solid QB and offensive line. Barkley being on the team with the Browns, Giants or Jets at this point, would just be a waste of his talent, as far as playoff implications are concerned.

    Let's say Barkley is good enough to win 3 more games for each of those teams during the 2018 season which is saying a lot. That still doesn't help those teams get into the playoffs. What...the Browns would now go say 3-13 with Barkley, the Giants 6-10, the Jets 8-8. Those team's players would still be sitting home watching the playoffs on TV.

    I'm not arguing the value of Barkley...but ya gotta, gotta, gotta have the solid QB first in today's NFL. All the rest, including running back is just window dressing without that as far as making the playoffs and winning playoff games is concerned.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,342 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 3:09PM

    There is zero question a sound running game absolutely can push great teams to get to the Playoffs but it starts and ends with a great line more so than a talented RB. In the past 10 years nobody can argue that a RB has pushed a team over the top and won them a Super Bowl, decent RB’s are a dime a dozen and compliment a well rounded team, look at all the Patriots success they have had without a ground and pound 1500 yard RB. No top RB in today’s game has won a super bowl.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Last 10 starting RB for each SB winner by year and round they drafted:
    2017 Eagles - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2016 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2015 Broncos - CJ Anderson / 6th round
    2014 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2013 Seahawks - Marshawn Lynch / first round
    2012 Ravens - Ray Rice / second round
    2011 Giants - Ahmad Bradshaw / seventh round
    2010 Packers - James Stark / sixth round
    2009 Saints - Pierre Thomas - undrafted
    2008 Steelers - Willie Parker - undrafted

    This list proves that teams don't need a stud first round RB in order to win the SB.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Erik

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Erik you saved me the time. Thank you

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 7:33PM

    @erikthredd said:
    Last 10 starting RB for each SB winner by year and round they drafted:
    2017 Eagles - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2016 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2015 Broncos - CJ Anderson / 6th round
    2014 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2013 Seahawks - Marshawn Lynch / first round
    2012 Ravens - Ray Rice / second round
    2011 Giants - Ahmad Bradshaw / seventh round
    2010 Packers - James Stark / sixth round
    2009 Saints - Pierre Thomas - undrafted
    2008 Steelers - Willie Parker - undrafted

    This list proves that teams don't need a stud first round RB in order to win the SB.

    You also don't need a stud QB, either~see Nick Foles, lol..

    And what round was Brady drafted in again?



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018 7:46PM

    @grote15 said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Last 10 starting RB for each SB winner by year and round they drafted:
    2017 Eagles - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2016 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2015 Broncos - CJ Anderson / 6th round
    2014 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2013 Seahawks - Marshawn Lynch / first round
    2012 Ravens - Ray Rice / second round
    2011 Giants - Ahmad Bradshaw / seventh round
    2010 Packers - James Stark / sixth round
    2009 Saints - Pierre Thomas - undrafted
    2008 Steelers - Willie Parker - undrafted

    This list proves that teams don't need a stud first round RB in order to win the SB.

    You also don't need a stud QB, either~see Nick Foles, lol..

    And what round was Brady drafted in again?

    Foles was on a completely loaded team
    Brady is the exception to the rule. You won't find any other 6th round picks who have won 5 SBs

    That list above shows that you need an elite level QB 80-90% of the time in order to win the SB.
    That list also shows that you can win with a late round/undrafted RB 80-90% of the time too.

    This whole argument comes down to how each commentor here would build a team. Some say QB first,some say RB first but there is no right answer, Its just opinions.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @grote15 said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Last 10 starting RB for each SB winner by year and round they drafted:
    2017 Eagles - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2016 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2015 Broncos - CJ Anderson / 6th round
    2014 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2013 Seahawks - Marshawn Lynch / first round
    2012 Ravens - Ray Rice / second round
    2011 Giants - Ahmad Bradshaw / seventh round
    2010 Packers - James Stark / sixth round
    2009 Saints - Pierre Thomas - undrafted
    2008 Steelers - Willie Parker - undrafted

    This list proves that teams don't need a stud first round RB in order to win the SB.

    You also don't need a stud QB, either~see Nick Foles, lol..

    And what round was Brady drafted in again?

    Foles was on a completely loaded team
    Brady is the exception to the rule. You won't find any other 6th round picks who have won 5 SBs

    That list above shows that you need an elite level QB 80-90% of the time in order to win the SB.
    That list also shows that you can win with a late round/undrafted RB 80-90% of the time too.

    This whole argument comes down to how each commentor here would build a team. Some say QB first,some say RB first but there is no right answer, Its just opinions.

    Fair enough. I agree with that. It's just a matter of perspective and let's face it, none of us or even any of the scouts knows how these guys are going to perform or pan out.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @grote15 said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Last 10 starting RB for each SB winner by year and round they drafted:
    2017 Eagles - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2016 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2015 Broncos - CJ Anderson / 6th round
    2014 Patriots - LeGarrette Blount / undrafted
    2013 Seahawks - Marshawn Lynch / first round
    2012 Ravens - Ray Rice / second round
    2011 Giants - Ahmad Bradshaw / seventh round
    2010 Packers - James Stark / sixth round
    2009 Saints - Pierre Thomas - undrafted
    2008 Steelers - Willie Parker - undrafted

    This list proves that teams don't need a stud first round RB in order to win the SB.

    You also don't need a stud QB, either~see Nick Foles, lol..

    And what round was Brady drafted in again?

    Foles was on a completely loaded team
    Brady is the exception to the rule. You won't find any other 6th round picks who have won 5 SBs

    That list above shows that you need an elite level QB 80-90% of the time in order to win the SB.
    That list also shows that you can win with a late round/undrafted RB 80-90% of the time too.

    This whole argument comes down to how each commentor here would build a team. Some say QB first,some say RB first but there is no right answer, Its just opinions.

    The key in business is making the right decisions, and that means working the percentages. Yes, the percentages can change over time, IE: the NFL has become more of a passing league, therefore the QB position is even more important than it was in the past. Which is what makes QB such an easy call for these losing teams with the high draft picks.

    Of course all these top QBs could turn out to be flops, and Barkley could turn out to be a ten time All-Pro, Hall of Famer. However, that's not working the percentages. I mean Barkley could take a hit to his knee the first play of his first NFL game and do little after that.

    It's up to the skill of the front office and scouts to choose the right QB here - that's working the percentages. Pick the QB who is not just athletic, as they are all athletic, but who is smart and can be coached up, learn the NFL game, comprehend the speed of it with fast decision making, make plays, be able to take hits from defensive killers who wish to crush him on every play, and win football games.

    Perhaps Barkley will turn out to be the very best player in this draft? For me personally, as a Penn State alum, I would like to see Barkley one day enter the Hall of Fame, and play well in every NFL game...except of course when it's against my Eagles. ;)

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek Unless some team makes a crazy trade offer to move to two,if i were the Giants GM, I'd pick the highest rated QB on our board after the Browns take their guy at one,then grab your highest rated RB with the 34th pick in round two.

    Looking at most mock drafts,Darnold,Rosen,Allen,Mayfield & Lamar Jackson are all expected to go in the first. NY would have 4 to choose from. If they take Barkley at two, all five QBs will be gone by the time they get to 34 and if they still want a QB to develop,they either reach for one with that pick or wait till your next pick but who knows who is available at that point.

    There's no Andrew Luck type of QB in this draft and that 3rd or 4th QB picked could turn out to be the best of the bunch. If you go QB first-RB second, you can likely end up with the #2 QB & the #2 RB from this draft which isn't bad at all especially if you have faith in your organization to develop these kids. The RB probably starts right away but your QB gets to sit behind Eli for a year until the coaching staff thinks he's ready.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:
    @stevek Unless some team makes a crazy trade offer to move to two,if i were the Giants GM, I'd pick the highest rated QB on our board after the Browns take their guy at one,then grab your highest rated RB with the 34th pick in round two.

    Looking at most mock drafts,Darnold,Rosen,Allen,Mayfield & Lamar Jackson are all expected to go in the first. NY would have 4 to choose from. If they take Barkley at two, all five QBs will be gone by the time they get to 34 and if they still want a QB to develop,they either reach for one with that pick or wait till your next pick but who knows who is available at that point.

    There's no Andrew Luck type of QB in this draft and that 3rd or 4th QB picked could turn out to be the best of the bunch. If you go QB first-RB second, you can likely end up with the #2 QB & the #2 RB from this draft which isn't bad at all especially if you have faith in your organization to develop these kids. The RB probably starts right away but your QB gets to sit behind Eli for a year until the coaching staff thinks he's ready.

    The Giants are in a funk right now, but they've had a history of success with Eli winning two Super Bowls. The Giants are too smart to make the glaring mistake of choosing a running back in their situation with the #2 pick. I don't care how good Barkley may be, the Giants are choosing a quarterback, and it's time to stop the debate on this - it's already etched in stone.

    The Jets however, have a history of incompetence. So even though i think they traded up to grab a QB that they like, if Barkley is available, they may make a glaring mistake in their recent history of many mistakes and choose a running back when they shouldn't be. Choosing Barkley would make Jets fans such as Grote15 jubilant during the off season, and buy tickets...but then watch...three years or so from now Tim will be posting that he can't believe the Jets just finished another season 5-11.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Or, they could draft a QB who turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf...it's easy to pontificate with possibilities, lol..



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:
    Or, they could draft a QB who turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf...it's easy to pontificate with possibilities, lol..

    True and Barkley could turn into Trent Richardson. ;)

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @grote15 said:
    Or, they could draft a QB who turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf...it's easy to pontificate with possibilities, lol..

    True and Barkley could turn into Trent Richardson. ;)

    True, lol...no one knows or will know for at least a couple of years.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • coinpalicecoinpalice Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see the nfc winning the super bowl again, they have at least 2 completely loaded teams

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinpalice said:
    I see the nfc winning the super bowl again, they have at least 2 completely loaded teams

    NE's only real competition in the AFC is Pittsburgh,who they've owned, & Jacksonville,who needs to come back and do it again. In recent history we've seen way too many teams have contender-like seasons then crap out the following year.
    The NFC contenders imo are the Eagles,Rams,Vikings & maybe the Cowboys if Prescott steps up in year 3.

    I can easily see a rematch of this past SB with Philly the favorite.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:
    Or, they could draft a QB who turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf...it's easy to pontificate with possibilities, lol..

    @grote15 said:
    Or, they could draft a QB who turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf...it's easy to pontificate with possibilities, lol..

    I would respond to that if I knew what pontificate meant.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @coinpalice said:
    I see the nfc winning the super bowl again, they have at least 2 completely loaded teams

    NE's only real competition in the AFC is Pittsburgh,who they've owned, & Jacksonville,who needs to come back and do it again. In recent history we've seen way too many teams have contender-like seasons then crap out the following year.
    The NFC contenders imo are the Eagles,Rams,Vikings & maybe the Cowboys if Prescott steps up in year 3.

    I can easily see a rematch of this past SB with Philly the favorite.

    <<< I can easily see a rematch of this past SB with Philly the favorite. >>>

    Oh i really like that scenario. Give me ten straight years of that, and I'll say it's still not enough. :D

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @erikthredd said:

    @coinpalice said:
    I see the nfc winning the super bowl again, they have at least 2 completely loaded teams

    NE's only real competition in the AFC is Pittsburgh,who they've owned, & Jacksonville,who needs to come back and do it again. In recent history we've seen way too many teams have contender-like seasons then crap out the following year.
    The NFC contenders imo are the Eagles,Rams,Vikings & maybe the Cowboys if Prescott steps up in year 3.

    I can easily see a rematch of this past SB with Philly the favorite.

    <<< I can easily see a rematch of this past SB with Philly the favorite. >>>

    Oh i really like that scenario. Give me ten straight years of that, and I'll say it's still not enough. :D

    Maybe this time around they'll let the punters play in the game lol.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought I was done here, but then I read "etched in stone" and I just smh.

    I've come to the conclusion that Steve -- a Philly fan -- can't see the forest for the trees because this is what he actually wants the Giants to do. He's begging for them to draft a quarterback so they can stink up the joint again for the next 1-2 years and remain completely irrelevant in the NFC East. Please, please select someone who will ride the pine and provide Eli no help whatsoever. Please, please avoid Barkley so you can try a play-action pass with Jonathan Stewart and allow our killer d-line to laugh their asses off all the way to Eli a hundred times over the course of two games. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that has to be it. Surely no one would bypass facts and logic that easily, would they?

    Not only do I think the Giants will (and should) take Barkley before they'll take a QB, but they'll trade down before they make that mistake as well. I can envision Buffalo in their stead before the pick happens. But again, if they foolishly draft one of these interchangeable quarterback prospects, then they are very deserving of their fate. You wanna experience what anyone associated with the Cleveland Browns feels? Go ahead, take one of these quarterbacks @ 2. :D

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2018 8:41AM

    @galaxy27 said:
    I thought I was done here, but then I read "etched in stone" and I just smh.

    I've come to the conclusion that Steve -- a Philly fan -- can't see the forest for the trees because this is what he actually wants the Giants to do. He's begging for them to draft a quarterback so they can stink up the joint again for the next 1-2 years and remain completely irrelevant in the NFC East. Please, please select someone who will ride the pine and provide Eli no help whatsoever. Please, please avoid Barkley so you can try a play-action pass with Jonathan Stewart and allow our killer d-line to laugh their asses off all the way to Eli a hundred times over the course of two games. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that has to be it. Surely no one would bypass facts and logic that easily, would they?

    Not only do I think the Giants will (and should) take Barkley before they'll take a QB, but they'll trade down before they make that mistake as well. I can envision Buffalo in their stead before the pick happens. But again, if they foolishly draft one of these interchangeable quarterback prospects, then they are very deserving of their fate. You wanna experience what anyone associated with the Cleveland Browns feels? Go ahead, take one of these quarterbacks @ 2. :D

    Galaxy's post is a good example of the old saying, i forget the football coach who said it first, but he said, (paraphrase) "If you listen to the fans, pretty soon you'll be sitting with them."

    I have no doubt that Galaxy is a good fan. However he would make a lousy GM - probably get fired within a year of being hired for the job. My commentary is based on fundamental drafting principles of successful NFL teams.

    I already noted in a previous post how 2 years ago, the Eagles traded up and got Cleveland's pick and drafted Carson Wentz. At the time, many football pundits, wouldn't surprise me if Galaxy was one of them, stated that was a bad move for the Eagles. I also mentioned that I saw Wentz practice on the Gruden QB camp TV show and I loved the guy, and this was before the Eagles traded up. At the time of watching the show, i thought there was no chance the Eagles would get him. Wentz showed astuteness in the chalkboard session with Gruden that i had never seen a QB show before on the Gruden show. Plus he hit the receivers perfectly in the throwing sessions. The Cleveland Browns should have kept their pick and drafted Wentz, but they didn't and henceforth 0-16.

    Could the Wentz pick have turned out to be a bad pick? Of course, we all know that...but it was the right move, the right decision for a team that wishes to win Super Bowls. And in their utter incompetence, the Browns made the wrong move.

    The odds say there will be at least one or two of these QB's who will succeed in the NFL. Will they be stars? Nobody knows for sure, but at least one or two will be winning QB's...the Giants know that, i think the Jets know that, and perhaps the Browns have learned and they now know that.

    All that is basic, fundamental NFL football draft knowledge, nothing complex about it, unless you are blinded by the potential of a possibly great future NFL running back.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2018 8:50AM

    LOL, I remember an even more noteworthy saying, as it applies to SteveK, "Hindsight is always 20/20," especially when you can twist the results without having gone on record at the time to state as such beforehand, to fit your narrative, lol.

    Wentz turned out to be a great pick and it certainly helps he plays in a very good system, one that enabled a QB like Nick Foles to be pulled off the scrap heap and into a Super Bowl MVP spotlight, but there are just as many first round QB selections who have turned out to be colossal busts, too. Does anyone believe any of these seemingly interchangeable 4 QBs to even be on the sale level as Carson Wentz in the first place?



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2018 9:10AM

    Steve, I am going to leave you with one question. It has three possible answers and only one of them is right: >, < or =

    The Giants' win total over the next two seasons with Saquon Barkley (insert your answer here) the Giants' win total over the next two seasons with any quarterback from this year's draft

    Take a minute to think before you embarrass yourself in front of everyone

    Edit: And if you think I'd make a lousy GM, then you should seriously consider joining the $100 buy-in fantasy league I'm in with Tim. A boatload of dead money awaits you. :p

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its gonna be hilarious after all this arguing the Giants end up taking Bradley Chubb with the 2nd pick.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:
    LOL, I remember an even more noteworthy saying, as it applies to SteveK, "Hindsight is always 20/20," especially when you can twist the results without having gone on record at the time to state as such beforehand, to fit your narrative, lol.

    Wentz turned out to be a great pick and it certainly helps he plays in a very good system, one that enabled a QB like Nick Foles to be pulled off the scrap heap and into a Super Bowl MVP spotlight, but there are just as many first round QB selections who have turned out to be colossal busts, too. Does anyone believe any of these seemingly interchangeable 4 QBs to even be on the sale level as Carson Wentz in the first place?

    No twisting involved. A lot of Eagles fans said the exact same thing. Evidently you didn't watch that Gruden show with Wentz or you weren't paying close enough attention. And you weren't alone...obviously the Browns weren't paying close enough attention either. LOL

    My only knock on Wentz at the time was his susceptibility for injury. And I have knocked Doug Pederson for playing Wentz too much with the injury factor in play. Some games where the Eagles had the win in hand, Pederson foolishly kept Wentz in the game. Did this weaken him to the point of an ACL tear? Possibly.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    Steve, I am going to leave you with one question. It has three possible answers and only one of them is right: >, < or =

    The Giants' win total over the next two seasons with Saquon Barkley (insert your answer here) the Giants' win total over the next two seasons with any quarterback from this year's draft

    Take a minute to think before you embarrass yourself in front of everyone

    Edit: And if you think I'd make a lousy GM, then you should seriously consider joining the $100 buy-in fantasy league I'm in with Tim. A boatload of dead money awaits you. :p

    If what you're calling "embarrass yourself" is true, then you are also describing every successful GM in the NFL the same way.

    Some good advice for ya...don't quit your day job to become a GM. LOL

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