1850 Proof double eagle inquiry.
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, there was at least one (1) 1850 double eagle proof ("master coin") made along with the rest of a set of 1850 gold.
Mint of the United States
Philadelphia
September 26, 1850
Hon. Thomas Corwin,
Secretary of the Treasury
Sir,
I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of yesterday,
respecting an application made by the Committee on the Library for a series of
“Specimens of gold coins.” I presume that these specimens include one set of
Gold Master Coins, and I have the satisfaction to say that these can be furnished
without delay.
The number of coins will be five, and their cost $38.50
Very respectfully,
Your faithful servant,
R.M. Patterson, Director
[Note supra: Copy sent to Com Library 27 Sept.]
[RG104 entry 216 vol 08 - 18500926 specimen gold coins]
Comments
That would have been $38.50 well invested. Is that not face value??
Thanks again for your efforts in locating these mint records. To my knowledge, until your posted findings here there had been nothing publicly known sourced from the mint itself confirming that the mint had created even one "proof" or Presentation Piece of the 1850 Double Eagle, the first Double Eagles to enter circulation.
It is interesting that Breen had suggested there might be as many as five Presentation Pieces or "proofs" of the 1850 Double Eagle, but he had only heard of the one that had been owned by Green as previously posted on the relinked below thread in reference to the below pictured 1850 Double Eagle now in my possession:
"This is the coin identified as possibly unique on the Coinfacts site as the first $20 proof/presentation piece, excepting the 1849 specimen in the Smithsonian. ....."
Here is an additional excerpt from the below linked thread:
"The following may also be if interest to anyone who has read this far with regard to my 1850 Double Eagle:
As noted on the holder, it once belonged to C.W. Green. Interestingly in reading Breen's book cataloging gold proofs I came across a reference by Breen to the very coin. He noted that there were possibly several Presentation Pieces a/k/a proofs made of the first $20 gold piece available for circulation in 1850. He went on to note that Green was reported to have one, but that he had never seen it himself. In addition, the coin is featured on CoinFacts.com as its first described "Significant example" of the 1850 Double Eagle, and CoinFacts further notes under Mintage, "Proofs: Unique?"
(An added personal footnote to the story. When David Bowers was compiling his book on Double Eagles I afforded him an opportunity to view the coin and to my surprise he kindly added my name to the credits for sharing the coin. )
At the time David Bowers was compiling his book on Double Eagles the coin's earlier auction history and connection to Longacre's personal collection ... had not yet been learned.
In addition, here is the above referenced "Coin Facts" description of the coin and its more recent auction history:
Significant examples:
SEGS Proof-62, "Presentation/PL, enhanced surfaces". Ex - Superior Galleries' "Pre-Long Beach Sale" May 27-29, 2001, Lot 4170A, where it was described as follows: "1850 SEGS graded Proof 62 marked "Presentation/PL" and " Enhanced Surfaces". The coin is also pedigreed to Dr. C. W. Green and so noted on the holder. This is the first collectible issue of the United States Double Eagle series. This coin has a beautiful bold strike with full stars and all other details sharp and clear. The fields are Prooflike and you can see clearly with magnification that the dies and planchet were enhanced prior to striking...""
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11442694#Comment_11442694
The "Committee on the Library" was a joint committee of Congress. The set of gold might remain in some obscure box, or it might have perished in Library of Congress fire of December 24, 1851. It destroyed a large part of the collection including about 2/3rds of the entire collection, and possibly 3/4ths of the books bought from Thomas Jefferson.
This excerpt might also shed some light on availability of master (proof) coins for this period.
March 29, 1852
DuBois to M. Stickney:
…I have now the silver dollar, ½ dollar, ¼ dollar and ½ dime of 1851; the remainder you will have to get from circulation. In fact there is no longer any attention paid here to securing master coins or pieces of high finish, since Mr. [Adam] Eckfeld’s decline and decease, and since the business of the Mint has become so pressing. The pieces I have just named, of 1851, are not master coins; merely new and clean specimens….
First, DuBois indicates that master coins were managed by Eckfeldt - made by him? - and that his condition had declined prior to his death (February 6, 1852). The implication is that during this declining health period master coins were not made or made only on orders, such as the one presented above. Second, the increase of business related to California gold and the mint was taxed to melt, refine and coin it all.
Did (or does) the Bibliothèque Nationale Collection in Paris have one as part of their 1850 Proof Set?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Unknown. Only mention seems to be hearsay. If they actually have an 1850 master coin set, then the $20 should be part of it.
I have been in communication with the Bibliotheque Nationale museum in Paris and they maintain that their 1850 $20 is in fact a "proof." At some point I hope to be able to place side-by-side my 1850 $20 (graded a PR-62 by Larry Briggs) and theirs (graded a "cleaned" PR-61, based upon a viewing at the museum, by David Hall).
Wow, awesome !!!
Will Bibliotheque Nationale provide accession information and photos of the 1850 gold proofs they have? Interpretation of numismatic terms is fluid.
If the coin in the Bibliotheque Nationale is indeed a proof, that may lend credence to the claim (Breen's) that as many as five could have been struck.... Interesting how little bits and pieces of information slowly come together... Cheers, RickO
Wow extremely rare. Cool history. Thanks for sharing.
It also means that further document investigation might be justified. Does SI-NNC have an 1850 proof gold set? If so, what are the details? (I don't trust Breen - he gives no sources.)
Interesting. I have had the same thought as to further document investigation. Certainly looking forward to what else you may locate. As to photos of the specimen in Paris I am hopeful that the museum will allow me to do so. (If David Hall was able to obtain photos during his viewing, they have not been made public to my knowledge.)
Why not look at your coin under magnification. Look for specific die polish. Any between the specific letters of "Liberty" will be easy for the folks in France to match.
For example, on your Proof, see if there are two large raised vertical bars in the recess behind the ear. Also some horizontal thin dashes (die polish) around the "Y" of "Liberty." I don't think the "Y" will be recut on your piece. You can pull up an image of a BU on the PCGS website.
I'd really like to see a magnified image of "Liberty," the ear area, and the upper left vertical shield stripes on your coin.
Definitely will be interesting to compare the two together when they are side-by-side, including under magnification. Per my prior inquiry the museum itself was unable to provide me their own photograph so the plan is to eventually make it there in person with a macro lens for still shots and possibly even a video recording for a potential documentary on the subject of the gold coins consequent from the California Gold Rush.
Looking forward to learning if Roger's further research will add even additional "bits and pieces" of helpful information.
Breen never met a fact that he couldn't make up
BHNC #203
PCGS has representatives in Paris. The subject might be of enough interest that they could have someone check the collection. After all, discovery of an 1850 proof DE would be a great publicity story for PCGS.
Your comment about "make up" ignores what Breen wrote on this specific topic, so it does not appear to be relevant here.
In Breen's Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Proof Coins 1722-1989, he says 2+ specimens, so I'm not sure where @northcoin's 5 number comes from (it is not from his other Encyclopedia in 1988; perhaps it is from the 1977 first edition of his Proof Encyclopedia?).
And he gives sources for 3 potential specimens, including citing the 1850 Patterson letter @RogerB has shown, and 2 auction lots:
He does indicate that he did not verify the second specimen (now apparently owned by @northcoin), and that it was questioned [by B. Max Mehl].
from
https://pcgs.com/books/breen-proofs/Chapter06-018.aspx
In the Bibliography section of Breen's other Encyclopedia (Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins, 1988), he cites on p.682:
[MBS = Mail Bid Sale, BMM = B. Max Mehl]
Breen did not mention the Dr. C.W. Green specimen in his discussion of the 1850 $20 in this 1988 book on p.563.
Thanks to the Newman Numismatic Portal, we can see the auction description for lot 719 (as cited by Breen) from this 1949 sale:
https://archive.org/stream/drcharleswgreenc1949mehl#page/42/mode/1up
So this yields the additional data that Dr. C.W. Green bought the coin for $350, and it sold in 1949 for $315.
@northcoin, in the other threads you linked, you assert that the Dr. C.W. Green coin is the same as the Longacre coin, but I don't see your evidence for this. Do you have more than what you posted?
As we know, linkages between auction appearances are often questionable. There could be 3 separate coins here, or they could all be one coin, or other combinations. In this case, we know Green bought it for $350, prior to the 1949 sale, but I don't see the full linkage back to the 1870 Longacre estate sale.
Usually specific details on the coin or photos are used to link coin appearances, but this can be more difficult for higher grade coins which have relatively few flaws.
Finally, here is the current entry in PCGS CoinFacts on the Paris specimen:
pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/9062
The quote "he coin is part of the collection of a French national who came to the United States circa 1840, made his fortune, and returned to France. He was fortunately a coin collector who obtained many important coins directly from the U.S. Mint while he was in the United States." likely refers to Alexandre Vattemare.
"Sept 23, 1848
To: Patterson
From: M. C. Young, Acting Sec of Treasury
Accompanying this communication you will receive a number of very handsomely executed medals presented by Mr. Alexandre Vattemare to the Treasury Department for the United States Mint. They are fine examples of the perfection to which that art has been attained in France.
As a mark of estimation and to aid in carrying out the system of national exchanges of which Mr. Vattemare is the distinguished originator, you are hereby authorized to place at his disposal copies of all the coins of the United States and whatever medals you may have in your power to furnish."
A fresh examination of the "French connection" for 1850 proof double eagles seems overdue.
It is true there is only one Proof $20
Double Eagle and it is in France.
David Akers has also seen the coin.
Too many questionable reports. It should be examined and photographed and the accession records copied. The Vattemare suggestion does not align with the Congressional Committee on the Library request of 1850.
My suggestion is: start fresh and assume nothing.
Dear @northcoin
If you have the chance, will you answer my request: Please see if there are two large raised vertical bars in the recess behind the ear. Also some horizontal thin dashes (die polish) around the "Y" of "Liberty." I don't think the "Y" will be recut on your piece.
Thanks
Rogers, are you pointing to the word "copies" as why examination needs to be reviewed?
siliconvalleycoins.com
Be nice Stew.
siliconvalleycoins.com
It is hard for me to imagine that Mint employees took time to strike only one proof $20 and gave it to our special foreign visitor. Agree?
Thanks for the effort extended to provide the added information and documentation. The discussion by Breen as quoted sounds similar to what I recall having read. (Unfortunately the book I sourced was at the local public library and when I have gone back it was no longer there so am unable to identify the edition.) I believe the reference to possibly five proofs came from a table. Is there one in the edition you identify?
My intended next step is to gain access to the Paris specimen so the two 1850 $20 Double Eagles can be placed side-by-side for comparison under the same lighting conditions. In the interim I look forward to the additional findings that Roger may learn of through his amazing research of mint records.
R. Tettenhorst visited the Bibliotheque Nationale in 1995. His notes are here:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/540906
Of the 1850 $20 gold he says, "from the Z 2128 [tray number?] collection....the 1850 $20 gold piece is clearly a proof with an extremely strong strike; a small amount of wire rim on the reverse, but a few minor spots of rub."
OK. Now this is a more meaningful observation -- and contradicts most of the others.
Mr. Tettenhorst's observations have always been of high quality and objectivity, in my opinion.
[R. Tettenhorst Files: Bibliothèque Nationale Collection, Newman Numismatic Portal. Accessed 2/1/2018.]
1st Draft, p.4
“From the Z 2128 collection …The 1850 $20 gold piece is clearly a proof, with an extremely strong strike; a small amount of wire rim on the reverse, but a few minor spots of rub. The 1850 silver dollar in proof appears to be the Bollinder 3 described by Walter Breen. The base of the zero is double punched. However, the die file marks are not visible below the zero. The obverse has a pronounced wire rim all the way around, although there are no cracks through the base of the date.”
This and an earlier yellow sticky note, plus silver and minor coin notations, indicate that a full 1850 master coin (proof) set was acquired for the Z-2128 collection and became part of the Bibliothèque Nationale. This is consistent with Alexandre Vattemare's international cultural exchange program.
Very interesting. You would think that all the other examiners would have seen the double punched "0" and made note of it.
The double punched "0" is on the silver dollar, not on the G$20. This is still useful because it suggests a full proof set of all denominations.
I don't see a table of estimated surviving proofs in the online version of Breen's 1989 Proof Encyclopedia. It is text organized by date and by denomination within date, with a few photos. I don't have a shelf copy of this book.
https://pcgs.com/books/breen-proofs/Chapter06-018.aspx
Thanks, When RWB posts something I tend to believe it. So although I never knew that Bolender attributed $20 gold coins and also overlooked "silver dollar" in the post I swallowed the info.
The reference to "Bollinder 3" was in relation to the dollar not double eagle.
If readers go to the link provided by Coinosaurus, they can read the complete file of notes and photocopies.
Thanks for the added input. I actually stopped by my local library today to see if by chance the edition they once had was in some other location. After a search it was confirmed that the public library no longer has a hard copy.
If the coin in the Bibliotheque Nationale is indeed a proof, that may lend credence to the claim (Breen's) that as many as five could have been struck.... Interesting how little bits and pieces of information slowly come together... Cheers, RickO
The Dr. C.W. Green attribution.
With regard to Breen's described references to my coin (as again pictured above) and his estimate of possibly 5 proofs, I am continuing to search for a print copy of "Breen's Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Proof Coins" which may include a table so referencing his estimated number of proofs. In the course of those efforts I did locate at a university library a print copy of the 1988 edition of his other "Encyclopedia." "Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins." Of relevance to the topic at hand regarding 1850 Double Eagle Proofs, as posted below, it does identify both the one from the set for the Congressional Committee on the Library and the one in the Longacre estate (which per numismatic author and researcher Karl V. Moulton, is the same coin as described above by Max Mehl in the quoted 1949 auction description.)
In Breen's day, most object research required on-site visits - something that was too expensive (and unprofitable) for sponsors.
Hopefully, this little thread will generate observations/examinations that can more accurately identify, evaluate and quantify 1850 DE proofs. Further, it could also aid information collection about the 1849 pattern.
JD has been through the Bibliotheque Nationale and if there's one there, he would have notes on it.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I just confirmed that there is one in the BN collection - he has a picture of it which will be published in his upcoming proof gold book.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
NOTE: Sometime in the past, I recorded the diagnostics posted above for a 1850 PROOF $20 Liberty. I show no record of that coin having a repunched date.
@northcoin has shown us an 1850 Proof $20. My question posted earlier (if you decide to reply) requires a very simple yes/no answer. Hopefully, when you have the time to examine your Proof coin again, you'll provide an answer to my question for all of us to see. Thanks in advance!
Excellent. Is that the only one or has his research located more?
It's the only coin that he's ever seen that he believes to be a true proof.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Interesting. Maybe the accession data will show the coin's origin. If not the Library Committee, then where is that coin?
Maybe the Library Committee gifted it to some fancy French library?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Yes, that is plausible. I'll try to check RG 128 next time I get to NARA.
Mike Sargent does most of the PCGs grading weeks I believe in Paris. The next is next week. He may be your best shot to contact.
Edited: Just saw the JD reference on the BN coin.... Keeping the info above in case it is of any help.
Latin American Collection
Cool thread
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Agree. Even cooler if I could get an answer to my question!
At the present incomplete state of knowledge, it might be better to simply report each suspect, rather than attempt to draw conclusions. I base this on a substantial mistrust of Breen and other old reports. They have equal chance of being right or wrong, so let's observe closely, then compare.
My personal experiences have led me to believe that 20th century numismatic research has a 50% chance of being right (if you're lucky), so you may as well disregard all of it and just try and find what you can in primary source material or by forensic analysis of the coins themselves.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake