Bears, Indians, or Earthquake? Returning to the impact of the 1918 flu pandemic that took the lives of 20-40 million people world wide, California was not untouched. Reportedly there were 1,000 deaths in San Francisco alone, and that is after its population had already been depleted by the 1906 earthquake.
"By the end of October, San Francisco had experienced a total of nearly 20,000 cases of influenza and over 1,000 deaths."
Then too, who is to say the owner of the coins didn't just live into old age, having withdrawn from his "bank" over the years as needed. As noted above, there was evidence that the cans were dug up over the years and even though the initial assumption is that coins were added, there is just as much reason to suspect that coins could have been withdrawn from the cans themselves or other cans that were emptied. The underlying point being that whoever buried these coins obviously did not trust banks or did not want his name associated with a large deposit in a bank that could be traced to him for whatever reasons, legal or illegal.
Here is the referenced "as noted above" statement:
"McCarthy [of Kagins} said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
I've been reading about a Chief Indian scout named Frank Grouard from the late 19th century. If the Indians caught up with you, you would likely be hack up into pieces and hung out to dry. It was common knowledge to commit suicide than rather be caught by the Indians. But, we were running them off their lands, destroying their families and way of life.
And, I was thinking, the owner of the gold coins might of had relatives back East and may have lost his life in his travels or didn't make it back. And he didn't want to be packing much gold doing so. But left it in the hills to buy supplies, horses and wagons when needed to make those journeys. But he likely took enough gold back East before his demise.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
"The can that the SRH family gifted to me was the JA Folger's Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Can - the Saddle Ridge Hoard can is a little earlier than the one in this picture, and has an embossed top, as well as a wire handle. I just had the opportunity to display it at the Old SF Mint for the California Historical Society's Gala on Thursday night, and it still wows people as much as almost any coin."
@Regulated, any additional details you can share with us with regard to the Saddle Ridge Hoard? Is there a more detailed and comprehensive book or a movie in the works? Thanks for providing the public the opportunity to see this historical artifact in conjunction with the California Historical Society's event. Looking forward to your posting of a photo of one of the Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Cans from the earlier point in time in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were found. By the way, will be interested to see if the earlier Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Cans had the Folger name and label similar given the changes in ownership as referenced in my prior post as condensed and included in part below. If there were changes that might help to suggest that at least some of the coins were originally buried prior to 1872.
"For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, there is a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners.
Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older brothers proceeded to the mines.""
(Of course, to restate my caveat from the prior post:
"At this point in time however, the connection between the gold mining Folger brothers and the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard has to remain one of conjecture despite the "coincidence" of the coins being buried in their manufactured cans.")
I keep a few old Smuckers jelly jars in the house to pack instant coffee, powdered creamer and sugar in when I travel, but I have no financial interest in the Smuckers Corporation. They just make good, sturdy jars (and the marmalade ain't bad either!!!)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
It's got that old world charm, don't you think ?
Many gold coins recovered from the shipwrecks looked similar before it was conserved. I think it is ugly! I bet it would bring more money after conservation. However, with a SRH label on the slab, I guess it is best left as is.
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
Many gold coins recovered from the shipwrecks looked similar before it was conserved. I think it is ugly! I bet it would bring more money after conservation. However, with a SRH label on the slab, I guess it is best left as is.
I am sure Regulated can fill in the details, but from my recollection some of the Saddle Ridge Coins were "cleaned" by the finders before they received advice to stop. Also, again from recollection, I believe there was some professional "conservation" done for at least a portion of the recovered coins.
The quality of the Mint State coins is unlike most others he has seen, since they were in the cans in the ground for more than 120 years and away from being handled or artificially treated, he said.
“This lot of coins is the freshest,” McCarthy said, compared to what he is used to seeing.
McCarthy said about 190 [of 1427] of the coins from the hoard are encapsulated in PCGS Genuine-designated holders because of environmental or other damage. Among them is an 1852-O Coronet double eagle.
McCarthy said a number of the earliest dates in the hoard had suffered some sort of cleaning before he examined any of the coins. McCarthy said he has no way of knowing whether the cleaning was done before the coins were placed in the ground or after they were removed.
“The first group of coins were unfortunately ‘conserved’ at some point,” McCarthy said.
McCarthy said it was his understanding that after the couple removed the coins from the cans, the coins were placed into plastic baggies and numbered.
@northcoin said:
I am sure Regulated can fill in the details, but from my recollection some of the Saddle Ridge Coins were "cleaned" by the finders before they received advice to stop. Also, again from recollection, I believe there was some professional "conservation" done for at least a portion of the recovered coins.
That's what I remember. Except that I don't recall any "advice to stop". I think it dawned on the couple after scrubbing a few too many..."Maybe we should talk to professionals before we clean any more?"
To me, "conservation" of a coin means to remove superficial deposits and stabilize the surface to minimize future environmental damage. This is what David McCarthy did.
"Cleaning" means to do anything else -- usually with negative results.
@RogerB said:
To me, "conservation" of a coin means to remove superficial deposits and stabilize the surface to minimize future environmental damage. This is what David McCarthy did.
"Cleaning" means to do anything else -- usually with negative results.
With your credentials I'll be you could get a tour of one of the TPGS conservation "labs." Then you might come over to my broader view: "Putting any chemical on a coin or removing anything on its surface **no matter the outcome (good or bad) is cleaning the coin."
Understood. My opinion is more aligned with contemporary museum use. There are disadvantages to conservation as well as advantages, so each case becomes an individual determination. For example, if there was a lone double eagle with rust and debris on the surface, the best approach might be to wash off loose dirt. Retaining rust and other materials because they were representative of the original matrix in which the coin was found. But, with a large group of similar coins and good information about circumstances of the hoard and recovery, removing all the superficial material is reasonable since it adds nothing to our knowledge.
Superficial material can be removed without affecting underlying original surfaces either physically or chemically.....that is, if the technician knows how to do this. Further, many items require surface stabilization to prevent damage. Gold coins don't usually fall into this category - removing dirt and rust also prevents further mechanical abrasion possible if material is left in situ.
@CaptHenway said:
I keep a few old Smuckers jelly jars in the house to pack instant coffee, powdered creamer and sugar in when I travel, but I have no financial interest in the Smuckers Corporation. They just make good, sturdy jars (and the marmalade ain't bad either!!!)
Point well taken. On the other hand how many people have multiple 2 1/2 pound cans of baking powder sitting around? Just checked my cabinet and see that our can of Clabber Girl Baking Powder weighs 1 LB. 6 OZ. and has already served us for over a year. Assuming that multiple cans were buried at the same time the person would have had to have had a somewhat unique source for the cans apart from being a lone miner out in the woods.
Odds are that the coins were packaged in the Baking Powder cans in San Francisco before they were transported to the distant hiding place which is consistent with both the cans and the majority of the coins having been manufactured there. Obviously not proof that the mining Folger brothers both mined the gold and after having had it converted to coinage at the San Francisco mint then placed the coins into their own cans, but definitely consistent with that possibility.
People did not buy pre-sliced bread in plastic bags back then. They baked their own, plus other things, especially if they lived out in the boonies.
Of, if they did go to a bakery and were a good customer, they could probably get empty cans for free or for very little charge. A bakery would go through a lot of it.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Looks like we could keep sparing in fun on the topic, but if this source is accurate, it wasn't until the 1920s that bakeries started using baking powder instead of yeast to bake bread. As the article describes, the motivation to use baking power after the early 1920s was basically as a "fast food" measure:
Now biscuits in a mining camp kitchen were likely another matter ... but San Francisco as the home of sourdough bread was using yeast for its bread as early as 1849 as per the second link below.
Odds are that the coins were packaged in the Baking Powder cans in San Francisco before they were transported to the distant hiding place which is consistent with both the cans and the majority of the coins having been manufactured there. Obviously not proof that the mining Folger brothers both mined the gold and, after having had it converted to coinage at the San Francisco mint, then placed the coins into their own cans - but definitely consistent with that possibility.
Odds are that the coins were packaged in the Baking Powder cans in San Francisco before they were transported to the distant hiding place which is consistent with both the cans and the majority of the coins having been manufactured there. Obviously not proof that the mining Folger brothers both mined the gold and, after having had it converted to coinage at the San Francisco mint, then placed the coins into their own cans - but definitely consistent with that possibility.
Saying that the coins were placed in "Baking Powder cans" (I should point out here that only ONE of the cans was a Folgers Brand baking powder can) in San Francisco is as conjectural as commenting on what color pants the owner was wearing when he buried the coins. There is ABSOLUTELY no way of knowing that information.
Since Folger was out of the mining business by 1865 or so, you'd have to be daft to think the coins - most of which are from the 1880s and 1890s - were his. Considering the fact that he lived in Oakland starting in 1866, I'm also left wondering why he'd have buried the coins so far from home.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Thanks for the added input. This is the first I have heard that all of the cans were not baking powder cans. Were you able to identify the other cans as to their origin? Looking forward to the photos of the can(s) referenced in your prior post.
While we have certainly not solved the mystery of the hoard, this thread is interesting in that the various theories provide grist for the imagination. Also, thanks to @Regulated, we have a couple of small details to add to the story. Cheers, RickO
@ricko said:
While we have certainly not solved the mystery of the hoard, this thread is interesting in that the various theories provide grist for the imagination. Also, thanks to @Regulated, we have a couple of small details to add to the story. Cheers, RickO
Of the various theories suggested on this thread, the gold prospector headed to the Yukon/Alaska who left his chump change behind buried by the Saddle Ridge certainly qualifies as one that "provide[s] "grist for the imagination."
This from the University of Washington archives:
"The Klondike Kings quickly became very rich. It is estimated that over one billion dollars worth of gold was found, adjusted to late 20th century standards. Others found their fame and fortune in different manners. Jack London became well-known by writing of his experiences in the Klondike."
The hoard has an "insider" feel to it, someone with a lot to hide looking for a safe place to stash his loot until the coast was clear to sell/fence the gold. It is highly unlikely this was a random group of coins given the guy at a bank from time to time as a "prospector" sought to turn his findings into coin if that was the theory. And does it really make sense that Joe Prospector hid his quarry for another foray into the ripe Alaskan gold fields? Success rates for AK prospectors were poor.
"McCarthy said one 1891-S Coronet double eagle is a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts. McCarthy said the surface fabric of the piece is unusual and he plans to conduct additional research and analysis to confirm whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine."
If there was a "well made" counterfeit found within the hoard I would suspect the hoard was not buried as long ago as most are suggesting. Or maybe the coin is in fact genuine, that is the only other explanation.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
The dates and condition of the coins has pretty well established the time period when the coins were buried. The fact that it contained a counterfeit is both interesting and reasonable:
The owner knew nothing about authentication.
Counterfeits were accepted due to lack of coins.
The owner knew it was fake yet it was still gold and worth something.
Anyway, nothing was said about how well made it is and as you know counterfeits have always circulated with genuine coins. Aside from value, IMO that is the "best" coin in the hoard!
@Insider2 said:
Anyway, nothing was said about how well made it is and as you know counterfeits have always circulated with genuine coins. Aside from value, IMO that is the "best" coin in the hoard!
Well whoever this McCarthy is, he is still not sure "whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine." so I assume it is well made if the experts can't determine if it is real or not. And if it is fake surprised that a fake of that quality was able to be produced back in the 1800's.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
@Insider2 said:
Anyway, nothing was said about how well made it is and as you know counterfeits have always circulated with genuine coins. Aside from value, IMO that is the "best" coin in the hoard!
Well whoever this McCarthy is, he is still not sure "whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine." so I assume it is well made if the experts can't determine if it is real or not. And if it is fake surprised that a fake of that quality was able to be produced back in the 1800's.
He is David McCarthy of Kagins. He has also posted on this thread.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
@Insider2 said:
Anyway, nothing was said about how well made it is and as you know counterfeits have always circulated with genuine coins. Aside from value, IMO that is the "best" coin in the hoard!
Well whoever this McCarthy is, he is still not sure "whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine." so I assume it is well made if the experts can't determine if it is real or not. And if it is fake surprised that a fake of that quality was able to be produced back in the 1800's.
He did not make the call: "...a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts."
"McCarthy said one 1891-S Coronet double eagle is a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts. McCarthy said the surface fabric of the piece is unusual and he plans to conduct additional research and analysis to confirm whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine."
If there was a "well made" counterfeit found within the hoard I would suspect the hoard was not buried as long ago as most are suggesting. Or maybe the coin is in fact genuine, that is the only other explanation.
I examined the piece before returning it to the family, and I'm reasonably certain that it was genuine, but had been heavily mishandled before going into the ground. It was mixed into a group of circ coins in the bottom of one of the cans.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
"McCarthy said one 1891-S Coronet double eagle is a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts. McCarthy said the surface fabric of the piece is unusual and he plans to conduct additional research and analysis to confirm whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine."
If there was a "well made" counterfeit found within the hoard I would suspect the hoard was not buried as long ago as most are suggesting. Or maybe the coin is in fact genuine, that is the only other explanation.
I examined the piece before returning it to the family, and I'm reasonably certain that it was genuine, but had been heavily mishandled before going into the ground. It was mixed into a group of circ coins in the bottom of one of the cans.
Thanks. That is much more plausible than a high-quality contemporary counterfeit in gold.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Reference Counterfeit, forgive me for being stupid, what would the benefit be in 1891 or thereabouts, to counterfeit a gold coin if the alloy matched the alloy used to mint the coins. Weren't the coins basically just the value of bullion?
I feel that we don't have enough Gala's > @CaptHenway said:
I keep a few old Smuckers jelly jars in the house to pack instant coffee, powdered creamer and sugar in when I travel, but I have no financial interest in the Smuckers Corporation. They just make good, sturdy jars (and the marmalade ain't bad either!!!)
I own the stock and Ive never been in a jam with it
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I examined the piece before returning it to the family, and I'm reasonably certain that it was genuine, but had been heavily mishandled before going into the ground. It was mixed into a group of circ coins in the bottom of one of the cans.
Kudos to Rich49 for originating this thread and double kudos to Regulated for joining in the discussion. It is noteworthy that after the passage of time since the initial publicity surrounding the 2013 Saddle Ridge Hoard discovery that it continues to capture the imagination of those here and likely the public as well.
(In the less than two weeks since this thread was originated, it has already had 2,500 views.)
Of course, for those of us who have acquired a specimen from the SRH any new details are always of special interest.
It's certainly been one of the most interesting experiences of my life, although one of the best parts of the whole experience was getting to know the people who found it. They're great people, and I really value their friendship immensely.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated said:
It's certainly been one of the most interesting experiences of my life, although one of the best parts of the whole experience was getting to know the people who found it. They're great people, and I really value their friendship immensely.
Reportedly they shared their good fortune by donating to various charities as well.
@Regulated said:
It's certainly been one of the most interesting experiences of my life, although one of the best parts of the whole experience was getting to know the people who found it. They're great people, and I really value their friendship immensely.
Reportedly they shared their good fortune by donating to various charities as well.
They did - the very first proceeds from the sale of any coins was all donated.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
Rollerman - Evidently the research staff of "Mysteries at the Museum" was on vacation when the show was assembled. From some of the past shows I've seen, they take a lot of vacations.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
Thanks for posting. Will try to catch it if it is rerun. (Do you have a season and episode number? I don't see it listed as an upcoming repeat episode in the near future, at least on The Travel Channel. Was it being shown on another channel and could you tell if it was an old show or a completely new one?)
"Mysteries at the Museum" is a fun show to watch, but they do seem to emphasize legend over accuracy and from your description it sounds like the connection to the Saddle Ridge Hoard was added as a dramatic after thought. One has to question just how carefully they researched the underlying mint theft story itself though, given the erroneously suggested connection between the mint theft and the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
The main problem with pinning the hoard on the 1900/1901 Dimmick theft is that the latest date in the hoard was 1894-S. In 2014 I made an elaborate post/theory of how Dimmick could have "laundered" his 1900/1901 dates into earlier years, but it was probably a stretch.... https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/912739/how-to-launder-30k-in-gold-in-1901/p1
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
That has been thoroughly discredited as a source of the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
Thanks for posting. Will try to catch it if it is rerun. (Do you have a season and episode number? I don't see it listed as an upcoming repeat episode in the near future, at least on The Travel Channel. Was it being shown on another channel and could you tell if it was an old show or a completely new one?)
"Mysteries at the Museum" is a fun show to watch, but they do seem to emphasize legend over accuracy and from your description it sounds like the connection to the Saddle Ridge Hoard was added as a dramatic after thought. One has to question just how carefully they researched the underlying mint theft story itself though, given the erroneously suggested connection between the mint theft and the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
The episode was TVO'ed a while ago (6 months to a year?), just getting around to watching some of them now. I don't know the episode number. It was on the Travel Channel, I do know that. They spent a fair amount of time explaining why the folks who found the hoard were entitled to keep it according to CA. law.
I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates! Finding this gold hoard would top that!
Rollerman Pete
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
@Rollerman said: "I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates! Finding this gold hoard would top that!"
You're too easy to please! As a child, my fantasy and b'day wish for several years was to find a huge pirate chest full of large diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires, gold chains, black pearls, eight Escudos, and a map to several similar chests buried close by! When I grew older I wished for something more reasonable, a suit of gold armor encrusted with all the jewels I wished for above. Today, even a 1/10 oz. Isle of man gold "cat" is just a dream.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
That has been thoroughly discredited as a source of the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
I don't think that any plausible theory has been discredited. New high grade $20s hastily buried in cans of the day. And Cole being the mint thief makes more sense to me than Dimmick as others have theorized. The prospector theory seems the least plausible.
Just curious what case histories of other defalcations have shown? If coins were recovered in other mint thefts in the US what were those coins?
RE: "I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates!"
If Granny lives is Montana or Idaho, her attic collection might include a bag or two. Many were shipped that-a-way and few returned.
Comments
I've been reading about a Chief Indian scout named Frank Grouard from the late 19th century. If the Indians caught up with you, you would likely be hack up into pieces and hung out to dry. It was common knowledge to commit suicide than rather be caught by the Indians. But, we were running them off their lands, destroying their families and way of life.
And, I was thinking, the owner of the gold coins might of had relatives back East and may have lost his life in his travels or didn't make it back. And he didn't want to be packing much gold doing so. But left it in the hills to buy supplies, horses and wagons when needed to make those journeys. But he likely took enough gold back East before his demise.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Quote: Regulated
"The can that the SRH family gifted to me was the JA Folger's Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Can - the Saddle Ridge Hoard can is a little earlier than the one in this picture, and has an embossed top, as well as a wire handle. I just had the opportunity to display it at the Old SF Mint for the California Historical Society's Gala on Thursday night, and it still wows people as much as almost any coin."
@Regulated, any additional details you can share with us with regard to the Saddle Ridge Hoard? Is there a more detailed and comprehensive book or a movie in the works? Thanks for providing the public the opportunity to see this historical artifact in conjunction with the California Historical Society's event. Looking forward to your posting of a photo of one of the Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Cans from the earlier point in time in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were found. By the way, will be interested to see if the earlier Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Cans had the Folger name and label similar given the changes in ownership as referenced in my prior post as condensed and included in part below. If there were changes that might help to suggest that at least some of the coins were originally buried prior to 1872.
"For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, there is a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners.
Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older brothers proceeded to the mines.""
(Of course, to restate my caveat from the prior post:
"At this point in time however, the connection between the gold mining Folger brothers and the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard has to remain one of conjecture despite the "coincidence" of the coins being buried in their manufactured cans.")
I keep a few old Smuckers jelly jars in the house to pack instant coffee, powdered creamer and sugar in when I travel, but I have no financial interest in the Smuckers Corporation. They just make good, sturdy jars (and the marmalade ain't bad either!!!)
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
It's got that old world charm, don't you think ?
Many gold coins recovered from the shipwrecks looked similar before it was conserved. I think it is ugly! I bet it would bring more money after conservation. However, with a SRH label on the slab, I guess it is best left as is.
I'm not sure what's best, but it is what it is. Mystique has a value, too.
I am sure Regulated can fill in the details, but from my recollection some of the Saddle Ridge Coins were "cleaned" by the finders before they received advice to stop. Also, again from recollection, I believe there was some professional "conservation" done for at least a portion of the recovered coins.
https://coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/2014/03/california-couple-finds-large-gold-coin-hoard.all.html
That's what I remember. Except that I don't recall any "advice to stop". I think it dawned on the couple after scrubbing a few too many..."Maybe we should talk to professionals before we clean any more?"
Kagin carefully conserved many.
Lance.
To me, "conservation" of a coin means to remove superficial deposits and stabilize the surface to minimize future environmental damage. This is what David McCarthy did.
"Cleaning" means to do anything else -- usually with negative results.
It's curious that "John and Mary" never surfaced publicly. Any good gumshoe could have found them. Whether the whole story was true is anyone's guess.
With your credentials I'll be you could get a tour of one of the TPGS conservation "labs." Then you might come over to my broader view: "Putting any chemical on a coin or removing anything on its surface **no matter the outcome (good or bad) is cleaning the coin."
Therefore, IMO coin conservation IS CLEANING!
Understood. My opinion is more aligned with contemporary museum use. There are disadvantages to conservation as well as advantages, so each case becomes an individual determination. For example, if there was a lone double eagle with rust and debris on the surface, the best approach might be to wash off loose dirt. Retaining rust and other materials because they were representative of the original matrix in which the coin was found. But, with a large group of similar coins and good information about circumstances of the hoard and recovery, removing all the superficial material is reasonable since it adds nothing to our knowledge.
Superficial material can be removed without affecting underlying original surfaces either physically or chemically.....that is, if the technician knows how to do this. Further, many items require surface stabilization to prevent damage. Gold coins don't usually fall into this category - removing dirt and rust also prevents further mechanical abrasion possible if material is left in situ.
Point well taken. On the other hand how many people have multiple 2 1/2 pound cans of baking powder sitting around? Just checked my cabinet and see that our can of Clabber Girl Baking Powder weighs 1 LB. 6 OZ. and has already served us for over a year. Assuming that multiple cans were buried at the same time the person would have had to have had a somewhat unique source for the cans apart from being a lone miner out in the woods.
Odds are that the coins were packaged in the Baking Powder cans in San Francisco before they were transported to the distant hiding place which is consistent with both the cans and the majority of the coins having been manufactured there. Obviously not proof that the mining Folger brothers both mined the gold and after having had it converted to coinage at the San Francisco mint then placed the coins into their own cans, but definitely consistent with that possibility.
People did not buy pre-sliced bread in plastic bags back then. They baked their own, plus other things, especially if they lived out in the boonies.
Of, if they did go to a bakery and were a good customer, they could probably get empty cans for free or for very little charge. A bakery would go through a lot of it.
Looks like we could keep sparing in fun on the topic, but if this source is accurate, it wasn't until the 1920s that bakeries started using baking powder instead of yeast to bake bread. As the article describes, the motivation to use baking power after the early 1920s was basically as a "fast food" measure:
Now biscuits in a mining camp kitchen were likely another matter ... but San Francisco as the home of sourdough bread was using yeast for its bread as early as 1849 as per the second link below.
elingreso.com/2010/01/02/making-bread-use-yeast-or-baking-powder/
Here is a link to the history of Sourdough Bread originating in San Francisco by Boudin in 1849:
https://gizmodo.com/san-franciscos-iconic-sourdough-is-made-from-160-year-1542168651
Again, the salient point being:
Odds are that the coins were packaged in the Baking Powder cans in San Francisco before they were transported to the distant hiding place which is consistent with both the cans and the majority of the coins having been manufactured there. Obviously not proof that the mining Folger brothers both mined the gold and, after having had it converted to coinage at the San Francisco mint, then placed the coins into their own cans - but definitely consistent with that possibility.
Saying that the coins were placed in "Baking Powder cans" (I should point out here that only ONE of the cans was a Folgers Brand baking powder can) in San Francisco is as conjectural as commenting on what color pants the owner was wearing when he buried the coins. There is ABSOLUTELY no way of knowing that information.
Since Folger was out of the mining business by 1865 or so, you'd have to be daft to think the coins - most of which are from the 1880s and 1890s - were his. Considering the fact that he lived in Oakland starting in 1866, I'm also left wondering why he'd have buried the coins so far from home.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated
Thanks for the added input. This is the first I have heard that all of the cans were not baking powder cans. Were you able to identify the other cans as to their origin? Looking forward to the photos of the can(s) referenced in your prior post.
While we have certainly not solved the mystery of the hoard, this thread is interesting in that the various theories provide grist for the imagination. Also, thanks to @Regulated, we have a couple of small details to add to the story. Cheers, RickO
Of the various theories suggested on this thread, the gold prospector headed to the Yukon/Alaska who left his chump change behind buried by the Saddle Ridge certainly qualifies as one that "provide[s] "grist for the imagination."
This from the University of Washington archives:
"The Klondike Kings quickly became very rich. It is estimated that over one billion dollars worth of gold was found, adjusted to late 20th century standards. Others found their fame and fortune in different manners. Jack London became well-known by writing of his experiences in the Klondike."
https://content.lib.washington.edu/extras/goldrush.html
So many opinions I will just read and watch! Stay tuned
@Latari_Numis ...Aha... do we have someone with 'inside information'? Perhaps one who is connected to the event??
Cheers, RickO
The hoard has an "insider" feel to it, someone with a lot to hide looking for a safe place to stash his loot until the coast was clear to sell/fence the gold. It is highly unlikely this was a random group of coins given the guy at a bank from time to time as a "prospector" sought to turn his findings into coin if that was the theory. And does it really make sense that Joe Prospector hid his quarry for another foray into the ripe Alaskan gold fields? Success rates for AK prospectors were poor.
From the coin world article:
"McCarthy said one 1891-S Coronet double eagle is a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts. McCarthy said the surface fabric of the piece is unusual and he plans to conduct additional research and analysis to confirm whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine."
If there was a "well made" counterfeit found within the hoard I would suspect the hoard was not buried as long ago as most are suggesting. Or maybe the coin is in fact genuine, that is the only other explanation.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
The dates and condition of the coins has pretty well established the time period when the coins were buried. The fact that it contained a counterfeit is both interesting and reasonable:
Anyway, nothing was said about how well made it is and as you know counterfeits have always circulated with genuine coins. Aside from value, IMO that is the "best" coin in the hoard!
Well whoever this McCarthy is, he is still not sure "whether it is a well-made fake or is, in fact, genuine." so I assume it is well made if the experts can't determine if it is real or not. And if it is fake surprised that a fake of that quality was able to be produced back in the 1800's.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
He is David McCarthy of Kagins. He has also posted on this thread.
He did not make the call: "...a counterfeit, in the consensus opinion of the PCGS grading experts."
Must be a really good counterfeit if the experts can't agree...or perhaps in very poor condition so it's hard to tell?
I examined the piece before returning it to the family, and I'm reasonably certain that it was genuine, but had been heavily mishandled before going into the ground. It was mixed into a group of circ coins in the bottom of one of the cans.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Thanks. That is much more plausible than a high-quality contemporary counterfeit in gold.
Reference Counterfeit, forgive me for being stupid, what would the benefit be in 1891 or thereabouts, to counterfeit a gold coin if the alloy matched the alloy used to mint the coins. Weren't the coins basically just the value of bullion?
Why?
I feel that we don't have enough Gala's > @CaptHenway said:
I own the stock and Ive never been in a jam with it
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Kudos to Rich49 for originating this thread and double kudos to Regulated for joining in the discussion. It is noteworthy that after the passage of time since the initial publicity surrounding the 2013 Saddle Ridge Hoard discovery that it continues to capture the imagination of those here and likely the public as well.
(In the less than two weeks since this thread was originated, it has already had 2,500 views.)
Of course, for those of us who have acquired a specimen from the SRH any new details are always of special interest.
It's certainly been one of the most interesting experiences of my life, although one of the best parts of the whole experience was getting to know the people who found it. They're great people, and I really value their friendship immensely.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Reportedly they shared their good fortune by donating to various charities as well.
They did - the very first proceeds from the sale of any coins was all donated.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
Louis Armstrong
Good article: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Gold-Country-couple-discover-10-million-in-5266314.php
Some discussions of theories: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/saddle-ridge-gold-coin-hoard.243697/page-5
Rollerman - Evidently the research staff of "Mysteries at the Museum" was on vacation when the show was assembled. From some of the past shows I've seen, they take a lot of vacations.
Thanks for posting. Will try to catch it if it is rerun. (Do you have a season and episode number? I don't see it listed as an upcoming repeat episode in the near future, at least on The Travel Channel. Was it being shown on another channel and could you tell if it was an old show or a completely new one?)
"Mysteries at the Museum" is a fun show to watch, but they do seem to emphasize legend over accuracy and from your description it sounds like the connection to the Saddle Ridge Hoard was added as a dramatic after thought. One has to question just how carefully they researched the underlying mint theft story itself though, given the erroneously suggested connection between the mint theft and the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
Fun thread to read.
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The main problem with pinning the hoard on the 1900/1901 Dimmick theft is that the latest date in the hoard was 1894-S. In 2014 I made an elaborate post/theory of how Dimmick could have "laundered" his 1900/1901 dates into earlier years, but it was probably a stretch....
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/912739/how-to-launder-30k-in-gold-in-1901/p1
That has been thoroughly discredited as a source of the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
The episode was TVO'ed a while ago (6 months to a year?), just getting around to watching some of them now. I don't know the episode number. It was on the Travel Channel, I do know that. They spent a fair amount of time explaining why the folks who found the hoard were entitled to keep it according to CA. law.
I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates! Finding this gold hoard would top that!
Rollerman Pete
Louis Armstrong
@Rollerman said: "I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates! Finding this gold hoard would top that!"
You're too easy to please! As a child, my fantasy and b'day wish for several years was to find a huge pirate chest full of large diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires, gold chains, black pearls, eight Escudos, and a map to several similar chests buried close by! When I grew older I wished for something more reasonable, a suit of gold armor encrusted with all the jewels I wished for above. Today, even a 1/10 oz. Isle of man gold "cat" is just a dream.
I don't think that any plausible theory has been discredited. New high grade $20s hastily buried in cans of the day. And Cole being the mint thief makes more sense to me than Dimmick as others have theorized. The prospector theory seems the least plausible.
Just curious what case histories of other defalcations have shown? If coins were recovered in other mint thefts in the US what were those coins?
RE: "I used to fantasize about finding a bag of Morgans in grandmother attic, and she tells me I can have them. They are, of course, all MS65 or better and mostly rare dates!"
If Granny lives is Montana or Idaho, her attic collection might include a bag or two. Many were shipped that-a-way and few returned.