@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
That has been thoroughly discredited as a source of the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
I don't think that any plausible theory has been discredited. New high grade $20s hastily buried in cans of the day. And Cole being the mint thief makes more sense to me than Dimmick as others have theorized. The prospector theory seems the least plausible.
Just curious what case histories of other defalcations have shown? If coins were recovered in other mint thefts in the US what were those coins?
Almost all of the proposed hypothesis are easily discredited on objective ground,, Including Dimmick as the good Capt. noted.
Defalcation records are somewhat obscure, but you'll find some of the larger ones listed in From Mine to Mint. If cash were stolen and recovered it was all current money. The only place where there was direct access was the Cashier's Office and his vault. That seldom contained any coin more than a year or two of previous date. Many larger thefts ended with no recovery, especially in the 1840s-60s.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
That has been thoroughly discredited as a source of the Saddle Ridge Hoard.
I don't think that any plausible theory has been discredited. New high grade $20s hastily buried in cans of the day.
The morning that the Dimmick story broke, the US Mint issued a statement saying that the Saddle Ridge coins had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Dimmick Defalcation. I think that qualifies as discredited.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The question is what was the mint's statement based on? I have seen arguments meant to explain away connections to the mint theft but I remain unconvinced. The large number of $20 coins in high states of preservation like this is unique, never before happened. A rigorous analysis of the coin and date distribution with all the theories has yet to be done as far as I've seen. Back when the issue was green there were all types of rancor directed at those who would question this was a random find without any connection to any thefts and for people to drop their concerns in the interest of sales and distributions of coins to collectors, that maybe the government would try an action, completely unwarranted concerns, it's not how the government works. Since the owner wanted to remain anonymous a really rigorous and unbiased research did not happen based on where the coins were found. Many illogical fears were thrown out if the finders went public. So most are just left with conjectures.
A rigorous analysis of the coin and date distribution with all the theories has yet to be done as far as I've seen.
The analysis seems simple enough, like I stated it before.
1900/1901 theft by Dimmick or Stone - should have yielded $20 coins with dates in the 1899-S to 1901-S range (as per @RogerB's post above for range of dates kept in the vault).
1894-S was the latest date found in the hoard.
And my prior thread indicating that it would not be that easy to convert the 1899-1901 dates into 1894 and prior dates, assuming the thief thought this was important.
Is there something non-rigorous about this analysis?
A rigorous analysis of the coin and date distribution with all the theories has yet to be done as far as I've seen.
The analysis seems simple enough, like I stated it before.
1900/1901 theft by Dimmick or Stone - should have yielded $20 coins with dates in the 1899-S to 1901-S range (as per @RogerB's post above for range of dates kept in the vault).
1894-S was the latest date found in the hoard.
And my prior thread indicating that it would not be that easy to convert the 1899-1901 dates into 1894 and prior dates, assuming the thief thought this was important.
Is there something non-rigorous about this analysis?
Real rigor would involve all the evidence matching it up with reasonable theories. Group the large numbers of $20s of the same date, mm, condition, etc.. Separate out extraneous coins that would have likely been at banks, from those with unlikeliness of being obtained at banks, hard to obtain coins. Had the total collection been analyzed before it was removed from the ground, maybe explanations would be more evident. Groupings of coins within cans in particular sequence, time and location vs. the theory they seem to have been deposited all at once within cans. Would the location of "unlikely" coins in a particular location within the cans be indicative? A thorough rigorous analysis would be book length. History of property ownership would help a lot.
The Dimmick investigation, trial transcripts and related materials are in NARA at College Park, Md. I examined these when the speculation first was made. Nothing in Dimmick relates to anything except Dimmick and there is no connection with anything in the Saddle Ridge find.
Sensationalism feeds only the egos of perpetrators of false and misleading information. The only "rigor" in the Dimmick sensationalism is " rigor mortis."
The Capt.'s comments are correct. Please understand that and move on to something useful.
Would the location of "unlikely" coins in a particular location within the cans be indicative?
No, because the coins could be placed in the cans just before burial. So the locations within a can could be independent of when the coins were initially obtained.
In terms of "reasonable theories", it is probably reasonable to think that a criminal would want to conceal their crime. If so, they might order the coins in the cans in a particular way that they thought would make the cache look like it was placed by someone else. So the order should not constitute proof for or against them being placed by a criminal.
You could evaluate a lot of reasonable theories. However, each competing theory should not reduce the probability that the cans were placed by someone caching their legitimate assets. Instead, each competing theory should share a portion of the probability that the coins were placed by a criminal (or a non-criminal).
Sure, if you knew the history of the property ownership you could possibly identify some likely individuals who could have placed the cache. But the identity of the actual person is not relevant to whether or not the coins were from the 1900/1901 theft, if that theft can be judged as very unlikely on the basis of the date distribution.
One thing we can be fairly certain of: if the property address was revealed, it would be an endless hassle for the owners to chase off people trying to find more buried treasure....
@Lakesammman said:
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
@northcoin said:
That is cool. We belong to the same "club" as I also got one of the "few CC's" although mine was a Twenty while you acquired the single Five.
For Carson City Twenties, that "club" is limited to a membership of one dozen, although there was an additional Carson City Ten, and a single Five, in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. That adds up to 14 Carson City minted gold coins total.
FWIW I had the honor of meeting with Don Kagin at a class reunion a few months ago. Mainly we talked about the Territorial Gold book he authored which he showed me and which he was donating to the university's library. I should have taken the opportunity to ask about the details of the origin of the Saddle Ridge Hoard that are not public knowledge but then I probably would have been sworn to secrecy anyway.
Of course, for those of us who have acquired a specimen from the SRH any new details are always of special interest.
OK, here is my $20 Double Eagle from the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Ron Guth identifies it as the only Carson City Twenty of its date in the SRH.
@Lakesammman said:
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
Until I saw your five CC and my twenty CC pictured together on the same page, I had failed to appreciate that they were both minted in 1892. Perhaps the mysterious person who buried the Saddle Ridge Hoard paid a visit to Carson City that year?
@Rich49 said: @Northcoin Beautiful Paquet Reverse. Curious what was the grade ?
Thanks.
As to the coin to which you make reference, below it is pictured here since it was identified on one of the linked threads. As noted in the discussion on the linked thread there are no known mint state examples of the San Francisco minted Paquet Reverse Double Eagles - and as we learned, none were in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Apparently, of the few that were minted before the order to stop production was belatedly delivered by the Pony Express, all entered into circulation where they remained until being discovered decades later. I am not sure what mine would grade today. VF? AU?
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't had time to read all of the posts about this yet, but I saw an account of this on an old segment in the "Mysteries at the Museum" just last night (I had taped it). Their story was that a man named Dimmick (or something like that) worked at the mint, had some trouble with the law in the past and was one of 6 who had the combination to the safe. (How that happened one has to wonder!) When they searched his apartment, they found the combination written on a scratch pad. They also learned that he had previously worked at a factory that made cans. He was convicted and served 6 years and died a few years after his release. They were watching him to see if he ever spent any of the money, which was mostly $20 gold pieces that amounted to $30,000 at the time, but he never did. According to the story, the amount found in the hoard was close tot he missing mint money as well.
One of Dimmick's relatives posts here!
Can you give us a clue?
IIRC board member jdimmick has posted to other threads that that Dimmick was a distant relative of his.
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
Hard to believe it's been almost 4 years since that broke! I did manage to get one of the best '89-S's in 63 at a not too crazy price (compared to some of the other dates). I've seen very few up for resale; the ones that did went for good prices. I also heard some got crossed to NGC and received higher grades. Either way, it got a lot of my non-collecting friends talking about coins, which was a good thing.
Ya know, I really wanted one of these but the asking price was "DOUBLE" PCGS Price guide. I can understand why very few are up for resale.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
Maybe they couldn't fix it.
As I posted: This coin is very easy to fix.
Mite want to ask Don Kagin why it was left that way then.
I wonder why this coin was not conserved before being slabbed. This is a very easy coin to "fix." Or, is it more valuable as is, with the rust stains connect it to the SRH can?
Maybe they couldn't fix it.
As I posted: This coin is very easy to fix.
Mite want to ask Don Kagin why it was left that way then.
Good point, I'll ask him when I see him. For now, I'll bet it is because the crud comes off so easily (at any time one wishes) that it is more interesting to leave the coin "nasty" as it helps connect the coin to the hoard.
You just gave me a great idea for a "coin doctor."
BTW, this same type of deposit occurs on sea salvage coins. As long as they are in a stack and protected from the movement of sand on their surface they can be completely restored.
@botanist said:
What grade would you give that 1870-S yourself, not considering what holder it's in?
I am a very conservative grader. Without the tick marks on the cheek and field, I would give the coin MS66 or MS67. With the tick marks, it is a 64+. I do not own any of those beautiful $20 SRH coins.
Comments
Almost all of the proposed hypothesis are easily discredited on objective ground,, Including Dimmick as the good Capt. noted.
Defalcation records are somewhat obscure, but you'll find some of the larger ones listed in From Mine to Mint. If cash were stolen and recovered it was all current money. The only place where there was direct access was the Cashier's Office and his vault. That seldom contained any coin more than a year or two of previous date. Many larger thefts ended with no recovery, especially in the 1840s-60s.
The morning that the Dimmick story broke, the US Mint issued a statement saying that the Saddle Ridge coins had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Dimmick Defalcation. I think that qualifies as discredited.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The question is what was the mint's statement based on? I have seen arguments meant to explain away connections to the mint theft but I remain unconvinced. The large number of $20 coins in high states of preservation like this is unique, never before happened. A rigorous analysis of the coin and date distribution with all the theories has yet to be done as far as I've seen. Back when the issue was green there were all types of rancor directed at those who would question this was a random find without any connection to any thefts and for people to drop their concerns in the interest of sales and distributions of coins to collectors, that maybe the government would try an action, completely unwarranted concerns, it's not how the government works. Since the owner wanted to remain anonymous a really rigorous and unbiased research did not happen based on where the coins were found. Many illogical fears were thrown out if the finders went public. So most are just left with conjectures.
The analysis seems simple enough, like I stated it before.
1900/1901 theft by Dimmick or Stone - should have yielded $20 coins with dates in the 1899-S to 1901-S range (as per @RogerB's post above for range of dates kept in the vault).
1894-S was the latest date found in the hoard.
And my prior thread indicating that it would not be that easy to convert the 1899-1901 dates into 1894 and prior dates, assuming the thief thought this was important.
Is there something non-rigorous about this analysis?
Real rigor would involve all the evidence matching it up with reasonable theories. Group the large numbers of $20s of the same date, mm, condition, etc.. Separate out extraneous coins that would have likely been at banks, from those with unlikeliness of being obtained at banks, hard to obtain coins. Had the total collection been analyzed before it was removed from the ground, maybe explanations would be more evident. Groupings of coins within cans in particular sequence, time and location vs. the theory they seem to have been deposited all at once within cans. Would the location of "unlikely" coins in a particular location within the cans be indicative? A thorough rigorous analysis would be book length. History of property ownership would help a lot.
The Dimmick investigation, trial transcripts and related materials are in NARA at College Park, Md. I examined these when the speculation first was made. Nothing in Dimmick relates to anything except Dimmick and there is no connection with anything in the Saddle Ridge find.
Sensationalism feeds only the egos of perpetrators of false and misleading information. The only "rigor" in the Dimmick sensationalism is " rigor mortis."
The Capt.'s comments are correct. Please understand that and move on to something useful.
love that look!
.
<--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -
No, because the coins could be placed in the cans just before burial. So the locations within a can could be independent of when the coins were initially obtained.
In terms of "reasonable theories", it is probably reasonable to think that a criminal would want to conceal their crime. If so, they might order the coins in the cans in a particular way that they thought would make the cache look like it was placed by someone else. So the order should not constitute proof for or against them being placed by a criminal.
You could evaluate a lot of reasonable theories. However, each competing theory should not reduce the probability that the cans were placed by someone caching their legitimate assets. Instead, each competing theory should share a portion of the probability that the coins were placed by a criminal (or a non-criminal).
Sure, if you knew the history of the property ownership you could possibly identify some likely individuals who could have placed the cache. But the identity of the actual person is not relevant to whether or not the coins were from the 1900/1901 theft, if that theft can be judged as very unlikely on the basis of the date distribution.
One thing we can be fairly certain of: if the property address was revealed, it would be an endless hassle for the owners to chase off people trying to find more buried treasure....
@Lakesammman said:
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
@northcoin said:
That is cool. We belong to the same "club" as I also got one of the "few CC's" although mine was a Twenty while you acquired the single Five.
For Carson City Twenties, that "club" is limited to a membership of one dozen, although there was an additional Carson City Ten, and a single Five, in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. That adds up to 14 Carson City minted gold coins total.
FWIW I had the honor of meeting with Don Kagin at a class reunion a few months ago. Mainly we talked about the Territorial Gold book he authored which he showed me and which he was donating to the university's library. I should have taken the opportunity to ask about the details of the origin of the Saddle Ridge Hoard that are not public knowledge but then I probably would have been sworn to secrecy anyway.
OK, here is my $20 Double Eagle from the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Ron Guth identifies it as the only Carson City Twenty of its date in the SRH.
Until I saw your five CC and my twenty CC pictured together on the same page, I had failed to appreciate that they were both minted in 1892. Perhaps the mysterious person who buried the Saddle Ridge Hoard paid a visit to Carson City that year?
@Northcoin Beautiful Paquet Reverse. Curious what was the grade ?
Thanks.
As to the coin to which you make reference, below it is pictured here since it was identified on one of the linked threads. As noted in the discussion on the linked thread there are no known mint state examples of the San Francisco minted Paquet Reverse Double Eagles - and as we learned, none were in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Apparently, of the few that were minted before the order to stop production was belatedly delivered by the Pony Express, all entered into circulation where they remained until being discovered decades later. I am not sure what mine would grade today. VF? AU?
Maybe they couldn't fix it.
One of Dimmick's relatives posts here!
Can you give us a clue?
IIRC board member jdimmick has posted to other threads that that Dimmick was a distant relative of his.
1870-S
1873-S
1875-S
1876-S
1877-S
1878-S
1880-S
1881-S
1882-S
1884-S
1885-S
1888-S
1889-S
1890-S
1890-CC
1893-CC
As I posted: This coin is very easy to fix.
Fantastic images, @Rarity ! Thank you for posting them.
Wow!!
Great images.
Ya know, I really wanted one of these but the asking price was "DOUBLE" PCGS Price guide. I can understand why very few are up for resale.
The name is LEE!
What grade would you give that 1870-S yourself, not considering what holder it's in?
Mite want to ask Don Kagin why it was left that way then.
Good point, I'll ask him when I see him. For now, I'll bet it is because the crud comes off so easily (at any time one wishes) that it is more interesting to leave the coin "nasty" as it helps connect the coin to the hoard.
You just gave me a great idea for a "coin doctor."
BTW, this same type of deposit occurs on sea salvage coins. As long as they are in a stack and protected from the movement of sand on their surface they can be completely restored.
I'm thinking someone seemed to buy alot of Saddle Ridge coins.........
Rarity! Details please! Grades of those beauties. I am completely blown away. More info please!!
100% Positive BST transactions
I am a very conservative grader. Without the tick marks on the cheek and field, I would give the coin MS66 or MS67. With the tick marks, it is a 64+. I do not own any of those beautiful $20 SRH coins.
Now this is a beauty $125000 PCGS 66
$2757 PCGS Cleaned
$2575 PCGS Cleaned
$42500 PCGS 65 - extremely conservative grading
$4350 PCGS 62
$4350 PCGS 62. Very affordable for the quality.
$4350 PCGS 62. My favorite for the price & quality.