Yes... the treasure hunter's dream....and still no explanation....at least not one that can be proved. There could well be more such treasures... actually, there probably are.... waiting to be discovered. Keep dreaming... Cheers, RickO
I was always a bit suspicious of the origin. The mInt had a heist about the same time for a similar amount of money but apparently that connection was dismissed.
Up here where I live, an old gold rush town, many stories told of treasures found in the way of gold nuggets stashed away under rocks. These are old stories of course but I have got to believe there's a lot more out there. No banks back then so all a guy could do was to hide his treasures. Butte county was the 3rd largest producer of gold in California back in the day. If you know where to look you can still find gold mainly in Butte Creek and the feather river, up around here. I myself have found some pretty nice looking little nuggets.
Happy hunting, Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
The 1886-s $10 pictured in the article is owned by a customer of mine, its truly unbelievable . There were four 1886-s, two in 5 and 2 in 66,(finer by 2-3 grades than any known prior) he got one of the 66's, and one of kagins premier customers got the other.
Hard to believe it's been almost 4 years since that broke! I did manage to get one of the best '89-S's in 63 at a not too crazy price (compared to some of the other dates). I've seen very few up for resale; the ones that did went for good prices. I also heard some got crossed to NGC and received higher grades. Either way, it got a lot of my non-collecting friends talking about coins, which was a good thing.
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
@Rich49 said:
I always thought that it was accumulative payroll stagecoach robberies stash and the culprits were killed at some point or died in prison.
I'm glad we have hoarders. Just met a gentleman who knew a customer that frequented the shop, long before I purchased it, but I did meet him and he did buy a little from me. He was a sweet old guy. Let's call him "Saddler" for short.
The old guy passed away a few years back, I found out. His friend knows his family and his family knows he buried his loot. 1.5 tons of silver , mostly 90%.
Of course, many can blow the information off as hogwash, B.S. etc., but you gotta believe this has been happening for centuries.
Since we've used gold that long, we have to imagine it gets buried.... again and again. The Saddle Ridge Hoard sparks the interest, for sure. Who believes ? What does it matter where it comes from ? The mint made it.
And I like digging stuff up, too. It's what brought me here to the boards so long ago. Digging stuff up.
This hoard also reminds us of the high quality produced and released by the US Mints. These coins went through all the normal production, review, counting and bagging steps before they got to a bank or the original owner. The coins were not "specimens" or other such dramatically-hyped nonsense - they were ordinary run-of-the-mill coins.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I'm glad we have hoarders. Just met a gentleman who knew a customer that frequented the shop, long before I purchased it, but I did meet him and he did buy a little from me. He was a sweet old guy. Let's call him "Saddler" for short.
The old guy passed away a few years back, I found out. His friend knows his family and his family knows he buried his loot. 1.5 tons of silver , mostly 90%.
Of course, many can blow the information off as hogwash, B.S. etc., but you gotta believe this has been happening for centuries.
Since we've used gold that long, we have to imagine it gets buried.... again and again. The Saddle Ridge Hoard sparks the interest, for sure. Who believes ? What does it matter where it comes from ? The mint made it.
And I like digging stuff up, too. It's what brought me here to the boards so long ago. Digging stuff up.
Some dig it up; some stir it up, but it's all good.
That story had my attention, and I don't know if we will ever know how it got there or where it came from but I would say there are many more treasures out there some where just waiting to be uncovered.
"Most of the coins are $20 gold pieces minted in San Francisco after 1854, during the gold rush. However, there also some earlier coins minted in Georgia, which raises the question of how they found their way to California."
For fun lets say 1000 coins were $20 pcs. and the rest (411) $5 pcs. That is a estimated $22,550.dollars face . Using 1854 In today's dollars adjusted for inflation around $603,964.76 !!! http://www.in2013dollars.com/1854-dollars-in-2018?amount=22550. Average wage then about $2-$4 a week.
Let’s imagine I have $10m in dirty money. I buy gold coins here and there up to that value and bury them on my property. I then “find” those coins and, voila, I’m one step away from having $10m in clean money.
Of course this scenario doesn’t pass muster in this case due to the recognisability of the coins...
@Lakesammman said:
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
That is cool. We belong to the same "club" as I also got one of the "few CC's" although mine was a Twenty while you acquired the single Five.
As identified below, for Carson City Twenties, that "club" is limited to a membership of one dozen, although there was an additional Carson City Ten, and a single Five, in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. That adds up to 14 Carson City minted gold coins total.
FWIW I had the honor of meeting with Don Kagin at a class reunion a few months ago. Mainly we talked about the Territorial Gold book he authored which he showed me and which he was donating to the university's library. I should have taken the opportunity to ask about the details of the origin of the Saddle Ridge Hoard that are not public knowledge but then I probably would have been sworn to secrecy anyway.
Here is a prior posting of mine with some observations about the composition of the hoard and what clues follow from considering the quantities, mints and dates represented in that composition:
Here are some of my observations on the composition of the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure:
Excluding the approximate 50 $10 Eagles and 4 $5 gold pieces, of the remaining 1,373 Liberty Head Double Eagles, 776 are contained in just 5 different mint date years from the San Francisco Mint.
The year with the largest representation of San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles is 1889 with 422 examples. Second place is 1892 with 173. Third is 1890 with 98. Fourth is 1882 with 72. In fifth place is 1888 with 63. No other year has more than 50.
Represented years with at least 30 San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles, apart from those above, are in order of quantity, 1883 with 49, 1879 with 45, 1880 with 41, 1881 with 40, 1878 with 34, 1884 with 33 and 1877 with 30.
The above listed years in #2 and #3 above, which together total the 12 most represented years in the Hoard, together contain 1,105 of the 1,373 Liberty Head Double Eagles in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure. That leaves only 268 Double Eagles of all other years and mints.
As to the earliest coins in the hoard, the earliest is an 1847-O $10 Eagle in AU50, an 1849 Dahlonega $5 gold piece in VF30 and there is an 1850 $20 Liberty Head Double Eagle from the Philadelphia mint in genuine.
There is both a single $5 gold piece and a single $10 gold Eagle from the Carson City mint. (The 5 is an 1892 MS62 and the 10 an 1875 in AU55.)
There were only 12 San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles for the last year (1894) of coins represented in the Hoard.
From the last two years that Carson City $20 Liberty Double Eagles were minted, there was one 1892 Carson City twenty and two 1893 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard with the other 9 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard having mint dates of 1874 (one VF20), 1877 (one AU58), 1882 (one genuine), 1883 (one MS61 and one MS63), 1884 (one AU55 and one MS61), 1890 (one MS60 and one MS63), with the 1892 being an AU58 and the 1893 including one genuine and one AU58+.)
OK, so what do these deposits by date tell us about whoever buried the coins?
Assuming the coins represent earnings or wealth accumulation for the years of mintage then we can say that 1889 was the best year with more than twice the income/wealth accumulation of 1892 and more than four times what was accumulated in 1890 and and 1882. Equally interesting is the absence of significant accumulation in the intervening year of 1891 which could suggest that the 1892 "deposit" actually represented two years of wealth accumulation. Likewise for 1889 with 1888 being so weakly represented.
We do know that at least for the gold coming out of the Comstock Lode region near Virginia City the gold itself was close to being depleted by 1892 and in fact 1893, at least for gold, was the last year of the Carson City Mint's operation due to lack of product. That historical fact can be correlated to the lack of any significant quantity (not more than 30 San Francisco minted double eagles) being deposited after the year of 1892 with its 178 Double Eagles even though coins for a few additional years are represented in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure.
(Again, as noted above there was one 1892 Carson City twenty and two 1893 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard with the other 9 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard having mint dates of 1874 (one VF20), 1877 (one AU58), 1882 (one genuine), 1883 (one MS61 and one MS63), 1884 (one AU55 and one MS61), 1890 (one MS60 and one MS63), with the 1892 being an AU58 and the 1893 including one genuine and one AU58+.)
@northcoin An excellent analysis. There are of course other possibilities. Take for instance the low number of 1891 coins. The lack of that date could be explained away if he took a trip that year, let's say to the East Coast to visit family, but that of course is just a WAG.
Either he did not accumulate much gold that year because he was away, or he did but he simply used his 1891 coins to pay for the trip rather than burying them. There would be no reason to dig up older dates and spend them, as they were all just money.
Or he could have gone to the Columbian Exposition in 1893. He certainly could have afforded it. If he grabbed some coins out of a can for spending money, he might have grabbed a group of 1891's because they were near the top of the heap. Again, these are all WAG's.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Within 30 miles of Genoa gold was discovered in Dayton Nevada at least a decade earlier than the events referenced in your link. This discovery of gold in Nevada was concurrent with the California Gold Rush even though the more notorious Comstock Lode with its gold and silver bonanza was yet ten years distant.
"Modern mining began in Nevada in 1849 with the discovery of placer gold in a stream flowing into the Carson River near the present town of Dayton. This discovery, made by Mormon '49ers on their way to the California gold fields, led others upstream into what was later known as the Virginia Range to find the croppings of the Comstock Lode in 1859."
And here is some interesting history about Genoa itself which was reportedly the first established community in Nevada:
"Since most of the men in Reese's party were Mormon, the location became known as Mormon Station. After building a trading post, Reese built a house and sent for his family in New York. Later, Reese added a blacksmith shop and a large corral for livestock.
The Overland Emigrant Trail passed down what is now Genoa's Main Street. Reese's operation did very well and when the Mormons were called back to Salt Lake City in 1857, Reese decided to stay to protect his business and extensive land claims. A great deal of buying, trading and selling of land went on during these early years. Reese did return to Salt Lake City in 1859 after business reversals.
Orson Hyde, an elder in the Mormon Church, was sent to "Mormon Station", Utah Territory, to set up a government, survey the town into lots, and define the state line between California and Utah Territory. He renamed Mormon Station "Genoa" in 1855. As the story goes, Hyde admired Christopher Columbus and so named the town site "Genoa" after Columbus's birth place, Genoa, Italy."
The key is the coins were buried after 1894 (the latest date found). 1893 was the year of the banking crisis and if you owned that much gold you would not put it into a bank. It might go under the next week. The smart thing to do was to bury it. Of course you should go back and dig it up before you die.
@EagleEye said:
The key is the coins were buried after 1894 (the latest date found). 1893 was the year of the banking crisis and if you owned that much gold you would not put it into a bank. It might go under the next week. The smart thing to do was to bury it. Of course you should go back and dig it up before you die.
Another factoid that may be of relevance. 500,000 some people lost their lives in the United States in the influenza epidemic that coincided with the end of World War I. (More deaths than in all the wars the United States has ever participated in total.) That would be within a decade or two of when the coins were likely buried.
Whole families were wiped out at once which might explain why those close to the person who buried the coins didn't survive to retrieve the treasure either.
@lkeigwin said:
Or maybe he was eaten by a bear.
Lance.
Considering all the lead in drinking water pipes, paint, and elsewhere that no one appreciated as being toxic back at the turn of the last century, the individual could have lived on but lost mental capacity.
The cans that the coins were buried in were some of the first cans to be manufactured in the United States and manufacturers were not adverse to using lead to seal parts of their "tin" cans. (I recall learning that some of the earliest baby bottles were tragically made out of lead.)
This from that all knowing source, Wikipedia:
"Early tin cans were sealed by soldering with a tin-lead alloy, which could lead to lead poisoning."
With regard to the cans themselves in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were stashed, they were "Golden Gate" baking powder cans manufactured by the Folger of Folger Coffee fame whose great granddaughter was one of the murder victims of the Charles Manson Family.
Here are several of my prior posting on the subject of the cans themselves:
James Folger, although of coffee fame, was significantly for purposes of this discussion, the manufacturer of the specific brand of baking powder cans ("Golden Gate" baking powder) in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were found and in which they were likely to have been transported from San Francisco. James Folger and his company making the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans were all conveniently located in San Francisco where the majority of the Saddle Mint coins were minted and sourced in mint state condition.
The cans were eventually identified as "Golden Gate Baking Powder" cans and it was disclosed that the hoard itself was located close to multiple property lines:
"McCarthy [of Kagins} said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, there is a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
OK, here are some interesting factoids about James A. Folger, his two brothers, and their descendants:
James A. Folger's brothers who travelled with him to California in 1849 for the California Gold Rush were Henry (two years older) and Edward (four years older.)
James A. Folger was the uncle of oil baron and founder of the Folger Shakespeare Library Henry Clay Folger who was born in 1857 to Henry, the middle brother.
James A. Folger was the great grandfather of Abigail Folger who along with Sharon Tate was murdered by Manson Family members in 1969.
At this point in time however, the connection between the gold mining Folger brothers and the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard has to remain one of conjecture despite the "coincidence" of the coins being buried in their manufactured cans.
It's a plausible assumption the person(s) who stashed the gold coins died very unexpectedly. There are thousands of possible ways that could've happened, even such as the cataclysmic earthquake of April 1906, causing over 3400 deaths in San Francisco alone, with additional uncounted casualties over an extended area along the fault zone.
The key to the mystery might be the exact location of the find, a location still being kept secret, and the land ownership records of that time period. Obviously whoever hid the coins was rich enough to buy an enormous parcel. Wouldn't you prefer to stash such a large fortune on a piece of land you controlled?
One thought about the years of the coins found...it doesn't really tell us when anything happened. Look in your pockets and see how many are from the current year. Not many, if at all, especially early in a year. Was it any different back then? I doubt it. The one thing it does tell us is that it can't be before a specific year...but to assume all were stashed the year they were made is a leap into folly, I believe.
@botanist said:
It's a plausible assumption the person(s) who stashed the gold coins died very unexpectedly. There are thousands of possible ways that could've happened, even such as the cataclysmic earthquake of April 1906, causing over 3400 deaths in San Francisco alone, with additional uncounted casualties over an extended area along the fault zone.
The key to the mystery might be the exact location of the find, a location still being kept secret, and the land ownership records of that time period. Obviously whoever hid the coins was rich enough to buy an enormous parcel. Wouldn't you prefer to stash such a large fortune on a piece of land you controlled?
Assuming Saddle Ridge was in the foothills of the Sierras there was not enough energy from the 1906 SF EQ to do too much damage, so any deaths there would have been a fluke and I think a demise of the hoarder from this is unlikely, unless he/she made regular trips from close to SF to the hoard burial site to make deposits. OTH, if in the hills around the Bay, then possibly.......
One interesting side note on lead-soldered cans. They have tested food preserved in those cans in the 1800's and found that it was still fresh (except for the lead poisoning).
Bears, Indians, or Earthquake? Returning to the impact of the 1918 flu pandemic that took the lives of 20-40 million people world wide, California was not untouched. Reportedly there were 1,000 deaths in San Francisco alone, and that is after its population had already been depleted by the 1906 earthquake.
"By the end of October, San Francisco had experienced a total of nearly 20,000 cases of influenza and over 1,000 deaths."
Then too, who is to say the owner of the coins didn't just live into old age, having withdrawn from his "bank" over the years as needed. As noted above, there was evidence that the cans were dug up over the years and even though the initial assumption is that coins were added, there is just as much reason to suspect that coins could have been withdrawn from the cans themselves or other cans that were emptied. The underlying point being that whoever buried these coins obviously did not trust banks or did not want his name associated with a large deposit in a bank that could be traced to him for whatever reasons, legal or illegal.
Here is the referenced "as noted above" statement:
"McCarthy [of Kagins} said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
@shorecoll said:
One interesting side note on lead-soldered cans. They have tested food preserved in those cans in the 1800's and found that it was still fresh (except for the lead poisoning).
Apparently lead poisoning was identified as at least a contributing cause of death for the ill fated members of the circa 1845-1848 Franklin Arctic Expedition but whether the primary source of the lead was from the lead-soldered cans or the lead pipes on the ship remains debatable.
Not likely lead poisoning was the reason for a sudden death and the loss of the hoard, because it's usually an extremely long lingering illness.
We're at a tremendous disadvantage in guessing about this. The Kagins, their employees, associates, confidants, friends and relatives probably already know the major details, as they surely followed up on the land ownership records, based on the location where found. They're keeping it secret for the sake of the current land owners, as they say, but also had (have) another very strong incentive. Shrouding the stash in mystery tends to justify the substantial premiums charged for the coins.
But as long as we're guessing about it, I think the c.1918 flu pandemic is also a far-fetched explanation, it was after much too long a gap. Even the deadly 1906 earthquake is probably too far out. My hunch is whatever happened was within a few years after the last definite date we have from the coins, 1894.
If major events played a role, we should consider the Alaska gold rush of 1896-99, with numerous related deaths, and we know the person who made the stash treasured gold enormously. Might his original motive to hide the fortune in a secure location been due to leaving California for the northern gold fields?
If major events played a role, we should consider the Alaska gold rush of 1896-99, with numerous related deaths, and we know the person who made the stash treasured gold enormously. Might his original motive to hide the fortune in a secure location been due to leaving California for the northern gold fields?
Excellent suggestion.
Maybe he did so well with his findings in the Klondike and on the beaches of Nome that he didn't bother to return for the chump change he left behind.
The can that the SRH family gifted to me was the JA Folger's Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Can - the Saddle Ridge Hoard can is a little earlier than the one in this picture, and has an embossed top, as well as a wire handle. I just had the opportunity to display it at the Old SF Mint for the California Historical Society's Gala on Thursday night, and it still wows people as much as almost any coin.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
There're still opportunities to get a piece of the action. Kagin's website currently lists 6 SRH coins ranging from a low of $5500 up to 40,000. The coin for 5500 is an 1892-S double eagle MS63, PCGS price guide 2750. Nah.
But the 40K coin is an 1870S $20 MS62, normally valued at 23,500 according to PCGS. However, if you think it's undergraded by a point, an MS63 is priced in the guide for $65,000. As slabbed the coin even has touches of rust remaining from a Folger's Golden Gate Baking Powder can, such as the two wonderfully illustrated above by yosclimber. Whaddya say? Tempting?
Ebay today has four SRH coins, and Amazon just one, a "damaged" 1863 $20, not left over from the original Amazon sales, but a relisted piece, the reverse looking okay for an AU, but the obverse eroded smooth.
Rich49
Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
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Yes... the treasure hunter's dream....and still no explanation....at least not one that can be proved. There could well be more such treasures... actually, there probably are.... waiting to be discovered. Keep dreaming... Cheers, RickO
I heard it was the mafia
Cool story. what would that be like?
I was always a bit suspicious of the origin. The mInt had a heist about the same time for a similar amount of money but apparently that connection was dismissed.
Up here where I live, an old gold rush town, many stories told of treasures found in the way of gold nuggets stashed away under rocks. These are old stories of course but I have got to believe there's a lot more out there. No banks back then so all a guy could do was to hide his treasures. Butte county was the 3rd largest producer of gold in California back in the day. If you know where to look you can still find gold mainly in Butte Creek and the feather river, up around here. I myself have found some pretty nice looking little nuggets.
Happy hunting, Joe
The 1886-s $10 pictured in the article is owned by a customer of mine, its truly unbelievable . There were four 1886-s, two in 5 and 2 in 66,(finer by 2-3 grades than any known prior) he got one of the 66's, and one of kagins premier customers got the other.
Hard to believe it's been almost 4 years since that broke! I did manage to get one of the best '89-S's in 63 at a not too crazy price (compared to some of the other dates). I've seen very few up for resale; the ones that did went for good prices. I also heard some got crossed to NGC and received higher grades. Either way, it got a lot of my non-collecting friends talking about coins, which was a good thing.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Still have my rusty coin - one of the few CC's. Thanks for the reminder of a great story.
Beautiful coin @Lakesammman! That CC is the one that really stands out for me in this collection.
CoinWorld featured this signature piece which is also recognizable but not as nice.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2014/05/early-saddle-ridge-hoard-gold-coin-sales-total-in-millions.all.html#
I always thought that it was accumulative payroll stagecoach robberies stash and the culprits were killed at some point or died in prison.
That is as good a theory as any....
I'm glad we have hoarders. Just met a gentleman who knew a customer that frequented the shop, long before I purchased it, but I did meet him and he did buy a little from me. He was a sweet old guy. Let's call him "Saddler" for short.
The old guy passed away a few years back, I found out. His friend knows his family and his family knows he buried his loot. 1.5 tons of silver , mostly 90%.
Of course, many can blow the information off as hogwash, B.S. etc., but you gotta believe this has been happening for centuries.
Since we've used gold that long, we have to imagine it gets buried.... again and again. The Saddle Ridge Hoard sparks the interest, for sure. Who believes ? What does it matter where it comes from ? The mint made it.
And I like digging stuff up, too. It's what brought me here to the boards so long ago. Digging stuff up.
This hoard also reminds us of the high quality produced and released by the US Mints. These coins went through all the normal production, review, counting and bagging steps before they got to a bank or the original owner. The coins were not "specimens" or other such dramatically-hyped nonsense - they were ordinary run-of-the-mill coins.
Some dig it up; some stir it up, but it's all good.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
That story had my attention, and I don't know if we will ever know how it got there or where it came from but I would say there are many more treasures out there some where just waiting to be uncovered.
Interesting. What sort of premiums are being paid for the Saddle Ridge coins?
And you still know who to sell it to if you ever decide to sell...
I'm say it's a Redfield stash. He hid so much scattered everywhere that it's possible methinks
"Most of the coins are $20 gold pieces minted in San Francisco after 1854, during the gold rush. However, there also some earlier coins minted in Georgia, which raises the question of how they found their way to California."
For fun lets say 1000 coins were $20 pcs. and the rest (411) $5 pcs. That is a estimated $22,550.dollars face . Using 1854 In today's dollars adjusted for inflation around $603,964.76 !!! http://www.in2013dollars.com/1854-dollars-in-2018?amount=22550. Average wage then about $2-$4 a week.
Did they have drug dealers back then? There was no income tax in those days so it was not tax evasion.
Might well have been a miserly rich person but I still fancy that it was ill gotten gains of some sort.
Yes they did have drug addicts too Heroin Opium Morphine Drugs were around and many "Wonder Drugs" were peddled then
Let’s imagine I have $10m in dirty money. I buy gold coins here and there up to that value and bury them on my property. I then “find” those coins and, voila, I’m one step away from having $10m in clean money.
Of course this scenario doesn’t pass muster in this case due to the recognisability of the coins...
Smitten with DBLCs.
@Lakesammman great coin! of the ones i could afford, that was one that i wanted most from the hoard.
Ah, thanks. I appreciate you thinking of me and reminding him
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
That is cool. We belong to the same "club" as I also got one of the "few CC's" although mine was a Twenty while you acquired the single Five.
As identified below, for Carson City Twenties, that "club" is limited to a membership of one dozen, although there was an additional Carson City Ten, and a single Five, in the Saddle Ridge Hoard. That adds up to 14 Carson City minted gold coins total.
FWIW I had the honor of meeting with Don Kagin at a class reunion a few months ago. Mainly we talked about the Territorial Gold book he authored which he showed me and which he was donating to the university's library. I should have taken the opportunity to ask about the details of the origin of the Saddle Ridge Hoard that are not public knowledge but then I probably would have been sworn to secrecy anyway.
Here is a prior posting of mine with some observations about the composition of the hoard and what clues follow from considering the quantities, mints and dates represented in that composition:
Here are some of my observations on the composition of the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure:
Excluding the approximate 50 $10 Eagles and 4 $5 gold pieces, of the remaining 1,373 Liberty Head Double Eagles, 776 are contained in just 5 different mint date years from the San Francisco Mint.
The year with the largest representation of San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles is 1889 with 422 examples. Second place is 1892 with 173. Third is 1890 with 98. Fourth is 1882 with 72. In fifth place is 1888 with 63. No other year has more than 50.
Represented years with at least 30 San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles, apart from those above, are in order of quantity, 1883 with 49, 1879 with 45, 1880 with 41, 1881 with 40, 1878 with 34, 1884 with 33 and 1877 with 30.
The above listed years in #2 and #3 above, which together total the 12 most represented years in the Hoard, together contain 1,105 of the 1,373 Liberty Head Double Eagles in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure. That leaves only 268 Double Eagles of all other years and mints.
As to the earliest coins in the hoard, the earliest is an 1847-O $10 Eagle in AU50, an 1849 Dahlonega $5 gold piece in VF30 and there is an 1850 $20 Liberty Head Double Eagle from the Philadelphia mint in genuine.
There is both a single $5 gold piece and a single $10 gold Eagle from the Carson City mint. (The 5 is an 1892 MS62 and the 10 an 1875 in AU55.)
There were only 12 San Francisco minted $20 Liberty Head Double Eagles for the last year (1894) of coins represented in the Hoard.
From the last two years that Carson City $20 Liberty Double Eagles were minted, there was one 1892 Carson City twenty and two 1893 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard with the other 9 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard having mint dates of 1874 (one VF20), 1877 (one AU58), 1882 (one genuine), 1883 (one MS61 and one MS63), 1884 (one AU55 and one MS61), 1890 (one MS60 and one MS63), with the 1892 being an AU58 and the 1893 including one genuine and one AU58+.)
OK, so what do these deposits by date tell us about whoever buried the coins?
Assuming the coins represent earnings or wealth accumulation for the years of mintage then we can say that 1889 was the best year with more than twice the income/wealth accumulation of 1892 and more than four times what was accumulated in 1890 and and 1882. Equally interesting is the absence of significant accumulation in the intervening year of 1891 which could suggest that the 1892 "deposit" actually represented two years of wealth accumulation. Likewise for 1889 with 1888 being so weakly represented.
We do know that at least for the gold coming out of the Comstock Lode region near Virginia City the gold itself was close to being depleted by 1892 and in fact 1893, at least for gold, was the last year of the Carson City Mint's operation due to lack of product. That historical fact can be correlated to the lack of any significant quantity (not more than 30 San Francisco minted double eagles) being deposited after the year of 1892 with its 178 Double Eagles even though coins for a few additional years are represented in the Saddle Ridge Hoard Treasure.
(Again, as noted above there was one 1892 Carson City twenty and two 1893 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard with the other 9 Carson City Twenties in the Hoard having mint dates of 1874 (one VF20), 1877 (one AU58), 1882 (one genuine), 1883 (one MS61 and one MS63), 1884 (one AU55 and one MS61), 1890 (one MS60 and one MS63), with the 1892 being an AU58 and the 1893 including one genuine and one AU58+.)
Thanks northcoin for your analysis. I was curious as to the makeup of the hoard and could not seem to find it on the internet.
Has anyone attempted a forensic analysis of the containers to identify their origin?
@northcoin An excellent analysis. There are of course other possibilities. Take for instance the low number of 1891 coins. The lack of that date could be explained away if he took a trip that year, let's say to the East Coast to visit family, but that of course is just a WAG.
Either he did not accumulate much gold that year because he was away, or he did but he simply used his 1891 coins to pay for the trip rather than burying them. There would be no reason to dig up older dates and spend them, as they were all just money.
Or he could have gone to the Columbian Exposition in 1893. He certainly could have afforded it. If he grabbed some coins out of a can for spending money, he might have grabbed a group of 1891's because they were near the top of the heap. Again, these are all WAG's.
Every time I drive through Genoa, NV I think of this
https://www.legendsofamerica.com/gold-coins-genoa-hills/
Within 30 miles of Genoa gold was discovered in Dayton Nevada at least a decade earlier than the events referenced in your link. This discovery of gold in Nevada was concurrent with the California Gold Rush even though the more notorious Comstock Lode with its gold and silver bonanza was yet ten years distant.
"Modern mining began in Nevada in 1849 with the discovery of placer gold in a stream flowing into the Carson River near the present town of Dayton. This discovery, made by Mormon '49ers on their way to the California gold fields, led others upstream into what was later known as the Virginia Range to find the croppings of the Comstock Lode in 1859."
nbmg.unr.edu/mining/MiningHistory.html
And here is some interesting history about Genoa itself which was reportedly the first established community in Nevada:
"Since most of the men in Reese's party were Mormon, the location became known as Mormon Station. After building a trading post, Reese built a house and sent for his family in New York. Later, Reese added a blacksmith shop and a large corral for livestock.
The Overland Emigrant Trail passed down what is now Genoa's Main Street. Reese's operation did very well and when the Mormons were called back to Salt Lake City in 1857, Reese decided to stay to protect his business and extensive land claims. A great deal of buying, trading and selling of land went on during these early years. Reese did return to Salt Lake City in 1859 after business reversals.
Orson Hyde, an elder in the Mormon Church, was sent to "Mormon Station", Utah Territory, to set up a government, survey the town into lots, and define the state line between California and Utah Territory. He renamed Mormon Station "Genoa" in 1855. As the story goes, Hyde admired Christopher Columbus and so named the town site "Genoa" after Columbus's birth place, Genoa, Italy."
genoanevada.org/history.htm
The key is the coins were buried after 1894 (the latest date found). 1893 was the year of the banking crisis and if you owned that much gold you would not put it into a bank. It might go under the next week. The smart thing to do was to bury it. Of course you should go back and dig it up before you die.
Morgan helps end the Panic of 1893
Another factoid that may be of relevance. 500,000 some people lost their lives in the United States in the influenza epidemic that coincided with the end of World War I. (More deaths than in all the wars the United States has ever participated in total.) That would be within a decade or two of when the coins were likely buried.
Whole families were wiped out at once which might explain why those close to the person who buried the coins didn't survive to retrieve the treasure either.
Or maybe he was eaten by a bear.
Lance.
Considering all the lead in drinking water pipes, paint, and elsewhere that no one appreciated as being toxic back at the turn of the last century, the individual could have lived on but lost mental capacity.
The cans that the coins were buried in were some of the first cans to be manufactured in the United States and manufacturers were not adverse to using lead to seal parts of their "tin" cans. (I recall learning that some of the earliest baby bottles were tragically made out of lead.)
This from that all knowing source, Wikipedia:
"Early tin cans were sealed by soldering with a tin-lead alloy, which could lead to lead poisoning."
With regard to the cans themselves in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were stashed, they were "Golden Gate" baking powder cans manufactured by the Folger of Folger Coffee fame whose great granddaughter was one of the murder victims of the Charles Manson Family.
Here are several of my prior posting on the subject of the cans themselves:
James Folger, although of coffee fame, was significantly for purposes of this discussion, the manufacturer of the specific brand of baking powder cans ("Golden Gate" baking powder) in which the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins were found and in which they were likely to have been transported from San Francisco. James Folger and his company making the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans were all conveniently located in San Francisco where the majority of the Saddle Mint coins were minted and sourced in mint state condition.
The cans were eventually identified as "Golden Gate Baking Powder" cans and it was disclosed that the hoard itself was located close to multiple property lines:
"McCarthy [of Kagins} said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
For anyone who wants to delve a little deeper into the "mystery" surrounding the Saddle Ridge Hoard, there is a publication titled, "Archeology of Historical Artifacts" which at page 169 actually describes the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their lids having been a product of the Folger company (of Folger coffee fame) in San Francisco and describes their having been transported to the Sierra Nevada. Noteworthy a complete review of the history and patents related to cans in the rather lengthy publication actually points to the Golden Gate powder cans having first been available later in the century as suggested by McCarthy of Kagins for whatever that is worth.
Adding to the intrigue, it turns out that the company that manufactured the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans did not come into existence as J.A. Folger and Company until 1872 when James, the younger of the three Folger brothers bought out his partners. Here is the kicker though - all three brothers were involved in gold mining. Certainly an interesting "clue" that would fit with the Saddle Ridge Hoard coins being the once held property of one or more of the Folger brothers. From the very beginning Kagin has hypothesized that these coins were deposited by someone involved in "the mining industry." Here is an excerpt tying the history of the company that made the "Golden Gate" baking powder cans and their founders involvement in "the mining industry."
"In the fall of 1849, the family sent James and his two older brothers to the West Coast to mine for gold. The Folger family had enough money to pay for their passage to San Francisco, but was unable to provide enough money for all three boys to travel from there to the mining towns. Therefore 15-year-old James remained in San Francisco to work for his travel costs while his older brothers proceeded to the mines."
…..
After working at Bovee's mill for nearly a year, James had saved enough money to stake a claim and headed out to mine for gold. He agreed to carry along samples of coffee and spices, taking orders from grocery stores in the mining country until he arrived in a town called Yankee Jim's in 1851.
Upon his return to San Francisco in 1865, James became a full partner of The Pioneer Steam Coffee and Spice Mills. In 1872, James bought out the other partners, renaming the company J.A. Folger & Co.
James married in 1861 and he and his wife had four children, two of whom died. His two remaining children worked for the family business. In June of 1889, at the age of 51, James died of a coronary occlusion. His oldest son, James A. Folger, II, had worked in the company for seven years at the time of his father's passing. He was 26 years old and ready to step into the role of president of
J.A. Folger & Co."
OK, here are some interesting factoids about James A. Folger, his two brothers, and their descendants:
James A. Folger's brothers who travelled with him to California in 1849 for the California Gold Rush were Henry (two years older) and Edward (four years older.)
James A. Folger was the uncle of oil baron and founder of the Folger Shakespeare Library Henry Clay Folger who was born in 1857 to Henry, the middle brother.
James A. Folger was the great grandfather of Abigail Folger who along with Sharon Tate was murdered by Manson Family members in 1969.
At this point in time however, the connection between the gold mining Folger brothers and the coins in the Saddle Ridge Hoard has to remain one of conjecture despite the "coincidence" of the coins being buried in their manufactured cans.
It's a plausible assumption the person(s) who stashed the gold coins died very unexpectedly. There are thousands of possible ways that could've happened, even such as the cataclysmic earthquake of April 1906, causing over 3400 deaths in San Francisco alone, with additional uncounted casualties over an extended area along the fault zone.
The key to the mystery might be the exact location of the find, a location still being kept secret, and the land ownership records of that time period. Obviously whoever hid the coins was rich enough to buy an enormous parcel. Wouldn't you prefer to stash such a large fortune on a piece of land you controlled?
One thought about the years of the coins found...it doesn't really tell us when anything happened. Look in your pockets and see how many are from the current year. Not many, if at all, especially early in a year. Was it any different back then? I doubt it. The one thing it does tell us is that it can't be before a specific year...but to assume all were stashed the year they were made is a leap into folly, I believe.
Assuming Saddle Ridge was in the foothills of the Sierras there was not enough energy from the 1906 SF EQ to do too much damage, so any deaths there would have been a fluke and I think a demise of the hoarder from this is unlikely, unless he/she made regular trips from close to SF to the hoard burial site to make deposits. OTH, if in the hills around the Bay, then possibly.......
Best, SH
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One interesting side note on lead-soldered cans. They have tested food preserved in those cans in the 1800's and found that it was still fresh (except for the lead poisoning).
Perhaps the owner was in San Francisco for an ill timed vacation at the time of the earthquake
The indians got him.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Bears, Indians, or Earthquake? Returning to the impact of the 1918 flu pandemic that took the lives of 20-40 million people world wide, California was not untouched. Reportedly there were 1,000 deaths in San Francisco alone, and that is after its population had already been depleted by the 1906 earthquake.
"By the end of October, San Francisco had experienced a total of nearly 20,000 cases of influenza and over 1,000 deaths."
https://influenzaarchive.org/cities/city-sanfrancisco.html#
Then too, who is to say the owner of the coins didn't just live into old age, having withdrawn from his "bank" over the years as needed. As noted above, there was evidence that the cans were dug up over the years and even though the initial assumption is that coins were added, there is just as much reason to suspect that coins could have been withdrawn from the cans themselves or other cans that were emptied. The underlying point being that whoever buried these coins obviously did not trust banks or did not want his name associated with a large deposit in a bank that could be traced to him for whatever reasons, legal or illegal.
Here is the referenced "as noted above" statement:
"McCarthy [of Kagins} said he was able to identify the canisters as Golden Gate brand baking powder cans of a style used in the middle 1880s, which was consistent with the dates of the coins in them (1847-1894).
Though he did not reveal where the coins were found, he described the location as in a “fairly remote area near several property lines.” He also said the spot was hidden from view on three sides along a ridge line path that the couple used to walk their dog.
There was evidence that some of the canisters were dug up and more coins added to the hoard, including damaged coins. He estimated that coins were added to the hoard over a period of 15 or 20 years."
Apparently lead poisoning was identified as at least a contributing cause of death for the ill fated members of the circa 1845-1848 Franklin Arctic Expedition but whether the primary source of the lead was from the lead-soldered cans or the lead pipes on the ship remains debatable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition
Not likely lead poisoning was the reason for a sudden death and the loss of the hoard, because it's usually an extremely long lingering illness.
We're at a tremendous disadvantage in guessing about this. The Kagins, their employees, associates, confidants, friends and relatives probably already know the major details, as they surely followed up on the land ownership records, based on the location where found. They're keeping it secret for the sake of the current land owners, as they say, but also had (have) another very strong incentive. Shrouding the stash in mystery tends to justify the substantial premiums charged for the coins.
But as long as we're guessing about it, I think the c.1918 flu pandemic is also a far-fetched explanation, it was after much too long a gap. Even the deadly 1906 earthquake is probably too far out. My hunch is whatever happened was within a few years after the last definite date we have from the coins, 1894.
If major events played a role, we should consider the Alaska gold rush of 1896-99, with numerous related deaths, and we know the person who made the stash treasured gold enormously. Might his original motive to hide the fortune in a secure location been due to leaving California for the northern gold fields?
The type of can used to hold the coins.
We discussed these cans in the original thread on April 30, 2014:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/911608/1861-s-paquet-in-the-saddle-ridge-hoard-update-status-of-1-2-million-dollar-coin/p2
Excellent suggestion.
Maybe he did so well with his findings in the Klondike and on the beaches of Nome that he didn't bother to return for the chump change he left behind.
Great thread.
The can that the SRH family gifted to me was the JA Folger's Golden Gate Brand Baking Powder Can - the Saddle Ridge Hoard can is a little earlier than the one in this picture, and has an embossed top, as well as a wire handle. I just had the opportunity to display it at the Old SF Mint for the California Historical Society's Gala on Thursday night, and it still wows people as much as almost any coin.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Perhaps one of these is a little closer to the embossed top can?
The can in question is slightly tapered. I'll have to take a photo of it to post.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I am sure we have many more to unearth. Great story.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
There're still opportunities to get a piece of the action. Kagin's website currently lists 6 SRH coins ranging from a low of $5500 up to 40,000. The coin for 5500 is an 1892-S double eagle MS63, PCGS price guide 2750. Nah.
But the 40K coin is an 1870S $20 MS62, normally valued at 23,500 according to PCGS. However, if you think it's undergraded by a point, an MS63 is priced in the guide for $65,000. As slabbed the coin even has touches of rust remaining from a Folger's Golden Gate Baking Powder can, such as the two wonderfully illustrated above by yosclimber. Whaddya say? Tempting?
Ebay today has four SRH coins, and Amazon just one, a "damaged" 1863 $20, not left over from the original Amazon sales, but a relisted piece, the reverse looking okay for an AU, but the obverse eroded smooth.