MS67 ICG Saint, crossover chance?

logger7

Is there a reasonable chance this "MS67" coin would crossover to NGC/PCGS?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1924-20-ST-GAUDENS-GOLD-CHOICE-GEM-BU-CERTIFIED-ICG-MS-67/302583473019?hash=item467361637b:g:9lMAAOSwCJxaP0GV

Weiss

You mean as an authentic coin? I think there is a reasonable chance it is an authentic coin.

joebb21

There always is a chance. When I looked at the pictures I did not see an ms67 even by ngc standards

291fifth

Put your money back in your wallet and walk away.

ElmerFusterpuck

Awful pics plus high starting price for even a 66 make this one a no go.

LindeDad

No too many hits hidden under that glare.

skier07

Slim and none

BillJones

It is almost impossible to even guess the grade when you are trying to say whether it's an MS-65, 66 or 67. The photos are juiced and don't show you anything, really. This is the type of coin you have to see in person, and even then you might need expert help.

Ammended to say I looked at the close-ups with my mouse, and that piece has too many little marks to grade MS-67.

Jcld

Those are really bad pics, the color is all off and blurry so I don't think you can ascertain a grade from them. I would pass on this one.

Insider2

NO, NEVER That coin may have been graded in the "wacky" Colorado days.

@291fifth said: "Put your money back in your wallet and walk away."

PS. Just some friendly advice. If you even need to ask, you need to take a grading seminar.

logger7

@Insider2 said:
NO, NEVER That coin may have been graded in the "wacky" Colorado days.

@291fifth said: "Put your money back in your wallet and walk away."

PS. Just some friendly advice. If you even need to ask, you need to take a grading seminar.

A friend who is a shut in asked and that is why I was chiming in on this. Actually serial number on the front is indicative of the ICG CO operation as far as I know, not the one on the back. And this phrase: "If you even need to ask, you need to take a grading seminar" is really heavy handed and shuts down worthwhile debate. A less rude comment would be "...have you compared the PCGS Coinfacts pictures for MS67"?

Gazes

given that the seller is in the business, I would assume they would have tried if they thought it had a chance.

saintguru

No one ever lost a dime saying "PASS" on a questionable coin". ~Me

davewesen

There is a reasonable chance that the seller has already tried. Why don't you ask them, they started the thread on the 1911-d $2 1/2 Indian Uncirculated.

Insider2

@logger7 said: "And this phrase [by Insider]: "If you even need to ask, you need to take a grading seminar" is really heavy handed and shuts down worthwhile debate. A less rude comment would be "...have you compared the PCGS Coinfacts pictures for MS67"?"

You and I have had a few PM's.

You know I have never held back with you, so this: If I were you, I should make some time this summer and attend a grading seminar. At the least, perhaps one of the traveling seminars taught by Brian but the seminars in CO are better as you will have TPGS graders and dealers teaching the class. The expense will save you a lot of money in the long run as you pursue your career as a professional coin dealer. Good Luck!

IMHO, this coin is over graded as an MS-67 and it is not even close!

RogerB

With all the dings and scrapes, it might 'grade' MS-62.

logger7

@Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "And this phrase [by Insider]: "If you even need to ask, you need to take a grading seminar" is really heavy handed and shuts down worthwhile debate. A less rude comment would be "...have you compared the PCGS Coinfacts pictures for MS67"?"

You and I have had a few PM's.

You know I have never held back with you, so this: If I were you, I should make some time this summer and attend a grading seminar. At the least, perhaps one of the traveling seminars taught by Brian but the seminars in CO are better as you will have TPGS graders and dealers teaching the class. The expense will save you a lot of money in the long run as you pursue your career as a professional coin dealer. Good Luck!

IMHO, this coin is over graded as an MS-67 and it is not even close!

Here is a link to the PCGS page on high grade 1924 Saints: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/9177

If ICG is over-grading these and then not honoring a guarantee that is a large problem.

Did I think it should go MS67? I had my doubts that's why I asked. Fields should be quiet, luster and strike should be full, it should be a superb gem no question. It seems the PCGS MS67 coins go for more than NGC.

Insider2

While I cannot speak for any TPGS as things like the company guarantee are probably handled by (?); I think you will find that these days - especially the last few years - when a question of grade guarantee comes up a majority of time the answer will be that the coin meets the company's standard.

jwitten

Why in the world did the OP get a "disagree" for asking this question? Lame

Insider2

@jwitten said: "Why in the world did the OP get a "disagree" for asking this question? Lame"

IMO from what I have observed the last few months the member leaving the disagree is, well...

Perhaps if he were given a short "vacation" for a few weeks it wouldn't happen again.

Boosibri

Run Forrest Run

mkman123

Isn't the seller a member here? I remember there a member named Arizona rare coins posting on here recently.....

ricko

Those pictures do not represent an MS67 Saint...far from it. I would not even consider that coin..... Cheers, RickO

Outhaul

As saturated as W.C. Fields on a bender.

Gluggo

Lots of money for a gold coin, plus I don't see lots of bidders lining up to fight for it!

RogerB

This might help members see the banged up obverse. Typical low-end Unc 1924, IMO.

logger7

@Insider2 said:
While I cannot speak for any TPGS as things like the company guarantee are probably handled by (?); I think you will find that these days - especially the last few years - when a question of grade guarantee comes up a majority of time the answer will be that the coin meets the company's standard.

There is room for some subjectivity in grading, but not in big money grades like here. If this coin would even struggle to earn the MS65 grade at PCGS or NGC, then the owners have a right to first submit to ICG with problems indicated, possibly with a letter from a well known numismatist asking for a refund. If they balk, one step would be to get other numismatists to write letters to back up the problematic nature of the grade assigned, then go over their heads to relevant organizations.

Occasionally I found that even the newer ICG undergrades; the older one with the certification label on front and somewhat better quality holder was pretty conservative on $20 gold. I don't know if they have grading guarantees on those older holders.

golden

No, no, no.

Insider2

@logger7 That makes sense. Rather than speculate, perhaps You should purchase the coin and send it in to our host for an upgrade. If it does not, send it to ICG with a letter from a well known numismatist. Let us know how you did.

logger7

I had an MS61 Seated dollar that was o.h. PCGS MS61 that years ago I sent to a well known numismatist to sell, and he said it had an old overly toned look with possible ed; I then sent it to PCGS under their guarantee with the problem description. PCGS backed up their guarantee, ie nice luster for grade.

The guarantee: http://www.icgcoin.com/about/guarantee/ http://www.icgcoin.com/about/guarantee/guarantee-usage-report/

Justacommeman

Cracking it out would be your only Hail Mary.

mark

CommemKing

No way. That pup is very overgraded.

TommyType

I think, in general, ICG gets more questionable the higher up the grading scale you get.

I've had good luck crossing AU and MS-63 coins. But they seem to have a different point of view, (i.e. "Grading Standards"), when you get much higher than that. Kind of like our cats: It's like they get distracted by something shiny.

davewesen

@Insider2 said:
@logger7 That makes sense. Rather than speculate, perhaps You should purchase the coin and send it in to our host for an upgrade. If it does not, send it to ICG with a letter from a well known numismatist. Let us know how you did.

A waste of time and money after $50 (or so), ICG will tell you that it is a MS67 by their grading standards

RogerB

There are no generally accepted and implemented standards for "grading" US coins. Only the most egregious cases have survived civil court.

ranshdow

Max Plastic (tm)

logger7

@RogerB said:
There are no generally accepted and implemented standards for "grading" US coins. Only the most egregious cases have survived civil court.

If there is a pattern of over-graded coins, there have been cases where major hoaky coin sellers have been nailed for over-grading. Rick Montgomery and Anthony Swiatek have been expert witnesses in major cases. "Numisgroup" and the Kearny and Romano boiler room were taken down: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1709047.html

There was a long thread when Accugrade was taken down in a court decision. I'm not sure if it held up in appeal.

VanHalen

You'd have to assume this coin has booming full mint luster and outstanding color to even have a shot at a 66.

So say it did pull a PCGS MS66 then I'd value it near this PCGS MS66 that sold 4 weeks ago at Heritage for $2040: ha.com

BUFFNIXX

If you send this coin to pcgs in the icg slab they will under no circumstances also give it an ms67. You would have to crack it out and take a really big chance. I once bought a 1938-d ms68 buffalo nickel slabbed by icg. In my opinion it was an MS68 all the way. Cost me $500 but I was able to sell for $1000. Think of how much more it would have sold for in pcgs or even ngc plastic.

ms71

To me, it is a 64, possibly a 64+.

csdot

It's a 1924 so it would be hard to find a more common date. Curious how the seller cites the PCGS value as a selling point in his listing. Does IGC not give values for coins they grade? I know NGC does.

johnny9434

not for me. it does not look right to me for the grade. jmo

Cougar1978

No - but get it into a PCGS holder.