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PCGS Las Vegas Show - Upgrade Success or Not?

ThePennyLadyThePennyLady Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 5, 2017 2:29PM in U.S. Coin Forum

So i mentioned in my recent Long Beach Show report that I bought this beautiful 1864-L Indian cent in PCGS MS66 BN for my personal collection, but to me it was clearly red brown. Here are my cell phone shots of this coin that were in my Long Beach show report:


And then Todd's photo:

For value comparison purposes, the PCGS price guide shows the price of MS66 BN at $3,000 and red brown at $7,850. Even though it is not my regular practice to resubmit coins for upgrade, now and then when I think it is worth it, as in this case, I do.

As a matter of fact, several years ago I submitted one of the coins in my personal collection for regrade - the 1914-D that's in my signature line which used to be in an NGC MS64 BN holder, now it's in a PCGS MS65 BN holder. It went from an approximate value of $4,000 to $7,000.


Back to the 1864-L story. I had already planned to attend he PCGS Collectors Only show in Las Vegas last weekend so I decided to bring this coin and try for a regrade since most dealers agree that they typically have better success at upgrades at this show. So the first thing I did when I arrived was to drop this coin off at the PCGS table, then I wandered around the show to try and sell some coins I had brought. I also managed to buy a couple really nice copper nickel Indian cents, both with very different but very pretty toning. (Sorry, its' really hard to capture the pretty toning in my cell phone photos.)

Yes, I know, I'm dragging this story out a bit, but I'm just trying to build a little suspense!

The next day I received a text from one of the PCGS reps who told me my coins were ready. I texted her back and asked for the results. Voila! the 1864-L not only upgraded to the RB designation that it should have had in the first place, but I was even more thrilled to learn that it also got a "+"! So now it's a Pop 2 with a price guide value of $15,000!

I am very honored to be able to include this wonderful new piece in my own collection!

FYI, for any of you interested, photos of my personal collections (Indian and Lincoln cents) are posted on my website here:

thepennylady.com/charmy-s-collections.html

http://www.thepennylady.com/charmy-s-collections.html

Charmy HarkerThe Penny Lady®
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    goldengolden Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super score!

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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats and beautiful coins Charmy!

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There you go again...showing off your "pretty pennies"...which I am glad that you do share your collection!

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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    garrynotgarrynot Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭

    That's quite an accomplishment. Congrats on your eye for quality.

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    1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some people have all of the luck !........Or maybe @ThePennyLady they just have a great eye and knowledge for coins :smile:
    Congrats

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

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    jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congratulations on the super double upgrade!! That is a gorgeous cent.

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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    wicked cool, i like

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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gosh I love these happy stories!

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WOW! Great story, you sure can pick um. You're not called ThePennyLady for nothing.

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome coins.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    wow!

    congrats

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Give the grade or the color, but not both. Usually. Congrats!

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    DorkGirlDorkGirl Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭

    B)

    Becky
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    ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 2:15PM

    I don't know how they determine the break point re BN and RB on IHC. On Large Cents, years ago, they quietly changed the breakpoint from 5-10% RD to get into a RB holder to around 20-25%. You would get an RB designation if the coin was RD in the protected areas (around the stars, near the devices, ONE CENT, etc). No longer.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
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    CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm having Charmy submit all my upgrades now! :)

    The more you VAM..
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    Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome! Also, here is a fixed link to your collection. It's going to take some time to browse all those sweet coins!

    http://www.thepennylady.com/charmy-s-collections.html

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    Peace_dollar88Peace_dollar88 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WOW! Great results!

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    mvs7mvs7 Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice looking cent... congrats on the deserved upgrade!

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Huge! WTG, Charmy!
    Lance.

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    PocketArtPocketArt Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WTG Charmy, congrats! I really like the '64-L! Wow!

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    divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats on the double score!!! They are really terrific looking pieces.

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set

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    ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    Cha-ching!

    image
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    CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry Charms, but as the coin market is reeling partially from grade inflation, it is getting more difficult to congratulate an upgrade.

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    CCDollarCCDollar Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice Post...Thanks...
    CC

    Nickel Triumph...My Led Zepps
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    Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good call. Nice Indian!

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well done.

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    MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭✭

    Nice. So do the dealers pay the sellers the RB price when it's a "lock"?

    Derek

    EAC 6024
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    jedmjedm Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1630Boston said:
    Some people have all of the luck !........Or maybe @ThePennyLady they just have a great eye and knowledge for coins :smile:
    Congrats

    I agree: Preparation followed by Opportunity equals LUCK. Nice one Charmy!

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congratulations Charmy.... Well done... your skill in coins allowed you to see the opportunity and you were correct. Cheers, RickO

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    ThePennyLadyThePennyLady Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you everyone, As for whether it was luck or a careful eye, I am very cautious whenever I consider a coin for upgrade so I like to think it has something to do with my experience, but I also know there is some amount of luck, whether it be with getting an experienced grader, maybe someone who's knowledgeable about copper, catching him/her on a good day, lighting, etc.

    In any event, as I mentioned, I am very pleased to add this special piece to my collection.

    Charmy HarkerThe Penny Lady®
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    dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonderful, Charmy! A great coin!

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    ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:
    Sorry Charms, but as the coin market is reeling partially from grade inflation, it is getting more difficult to congratulate an upgrade.

    Here comes Debbie downer.

    image
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    BruceSBruceS Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017 9:12PM

    Nevermind


    eBay ID-bruceshort978
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    ThePennyLadyThePennyLady Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017 9:31PM

    I don't believe grade inflation is that rampant in the copper sector of numismatics. And as I mentioned, I'm pretty picky about which coins I even consider submitting for a regrade and I have to really believe it is warranted before I decide to go through the process and pay the submission and regrade fees. In my opinion, this coin definitely had the wrong color designation (BN), and as you can see from the photos, this coin has exceptional eye appeal, strike, surfaces, etc. so I think this particular coin deserved the plus designation bump and was not grade inflation at all.

    Charmy HarkerThe Penny Lady®
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    NumivenNumiven Posts: 377 ✭✭✭

    Cool. I was at Caesars with my coins too..

    Numismatics & Photography
    rv@ravenumismatics.com
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    GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful Thank you for sharing!

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please, gradeflation is a problem in every area-including copper. The biggest problem with copper today-the coins docs are rampant. Especially on toned proof indians. blue copper is generally bad copper.

    I agree, hard to cheer for an upgrade without seeing the coin in hand even though the pic looks okay

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    KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I won't dig, you obviously put in the time and have the talent to see opportunity. No gradeflation when the coin was grading wrong to begin. Obvious prior owners loss. Your gain. Congrats.

    Best place to buy !
    Bronze Associate member

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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017 7:58AM

    Congrats on the double upgrade.

    The price guide has only one price. So that would be for a the most typical RB coin (50% red). Since the "accepted" range of RB is probably on the order of 25-90% that suggests a much wider market price range. In this case, the left (most important) and upper obv fields are fully brown. The Indian's raised figure is in full brown. Obv looks to be a net 25-35% red.

    https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    PCGS video on RB/BN coins is not date or type specific. The published RB range is 5-95%. I thought the early standards used in the 1986-1998 era was more like 25-90%....anything at 20% or less Red was graded Brown. Some of the coins identified in the video as RB with 25% or less Red look like Brown coins from previous decades. One thing for sure, the price differences from 5-35% Red to 75-95% Red would typically be quite large.

    PCGS has had a published standard of 5-95% RD for and RB since their grading guide came out (1997). So how could such a coin ever be designated Brown?

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the coin deserves the RB.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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    1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By the way, why aren't the 59 and 63 above not marked with a color?

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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    MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭✭

    @Kkathyl said:
    I won't dig, you obviously put in the time and have the talent to see opportunity. No gradeflation when the coin was grading wrong to begin. Obvious prior owners loss. Your gain. Congrats.

    So you feel a dealer should not advise a client as to what they have?

    Derek

    EAC 6024
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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1Mike1 said:
    By the way, why aren't the 59 and 63 above not marked with a color?

    Copper nickel vs bronze

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    TomthemailcarrierTomthemailcarrier Posts: 635 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017 11:30AM

    Charmy, you have an eye for quality coins! Knowledge and experience truly served you well. A beautiful 1864-L....Red Brown.

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    JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well played

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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    TetromibiTetromibi Posts: 944 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Going from MS66 BN at $3,000 MS66+ RB at $15,000 is awesome!

    Congrats!

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    DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hip, hip hooray for one of the good folks!

    When in doubt, don't.

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