PVC on Holdered Coins
JeffMTampa
Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently purchased a few Barber Dimes in newer PCGS holders with very noticable PVC showing. I have to believe there was visable PVC on both coins when they were holdered (within the last 1 to 3 years); I'm surprised they were holdered.
Does have experience dealing with PCGS on this issue in the past? Will they stand behind it and conserve the coins/ reholder? I know the PVC will come off rather easily with acetone, but should I be stuck with regrade fees?
I love them Barber Halves.....
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Did you see the PVC on them before you bought?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Not saying it couldn't happen but dought PCGS would holder a coin
with PVC. Most likely happen during the 1 to 3 year window.
Best thing to do would be to call them and ask if there was anything they can do. They are usually pretty helpful.
Pvc on this one shows in the tru-view
I just posted about it on a Merc Dime. Long story short, I cracked it out myself, neutralized the PVC and had it re-graded. It was in an OGH too.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/983741/received-submission-back-from-cac-w-a-note-on-a-mercury-dime-update-grade-truview-posted-below#latest
There are an astounding number of PCGS slabbed coins out there with PVC residue on them. Just ask Albanese...it is the most common reason for otherwise nice for the grade coins not getting a CAC sticker.
PCGS will over dip them and charge you a ransom for the privilege but at least you will get it back in a same grade holder. You can take your chances and crack and dip in Acetone as to not strip the coin but it may never make it back into plastic.
Honestly you need to sell those probelms to someone else and buy a good light and learn to inspect coins under strong light to see if they are contaminated before buying. PCGS is now no longer accepting liability for turned/junk coins or in the business of taking ED coins off the market that reside in their holders. They used to think it was a brand builder to fix these types of coins to prevent an under-market of potentially worthless/devalued coins being resold under PCGS's name at retail to ignorant collectors who don't know any better by the same caliber of dealers that sold junky raw coins as higher grade.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@georgiacop50 said: "There are an astounding number of PCGS slabbed coins out there with PVC residue on them. Just ask Albanese...it is the most common reason for otherwise nice for the grade coins not getting a CAC sticker.""
I don't see enough ANACS to comment but the other three majors do slab coins with PVC. Most of the time it is the whitish haze type rather than the very pale green. However, you will find green PVC on coins in slabs if you look hard enough. Only one of the second tier services which I will not name removes PVC for free most of the time so they can slab the coin. Many of their customers write "Please Conserve" on the submission form and any coins (within a reasonable #) that can be improved are done at no charge.
ICG.
I was told, by someone VERY high up at PCGS, who used to post a lot but doesn't now, that if the PVC were inert, and not active, he/PCGS didn't see it as an issue.
This was brought up during the discussion of an OGH coin with PVC (that CAC caught)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Thanks for all the reples. I purchased both coins knowing they had PVC on them. Here are photos of the worst of the 2, a 1902 S in a current generation PCGS AU 58 slab:
There's a few spots on the obverse and a lot on the right side of the reverse. I don't want to sell the coins, but I would like to conserve them. Both of the coins are valued in the $250 to $300 range. If PCGS charges $30 to conserve thm I can live with it, but I have to believe this green goo was visible on the coin at time of grading.
If you are experienced with this issue, just do it yourself and have it regraded.... biggest danger will be if it has damaged the surface.....and if left as is, it surely will do so. If not experienced, pay the fee and have the TPG do it. Best of luck... Cheers, RickO
You will not recognize them when they come back if PCGS does it. They will come back Blast white or how ever they come out after a strong dip. Nothing worse than a dipped out cir coin. Again sell them at auction and keep it moving
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Not all muffins come out of the oven baked the same.
@Crypto said: "PCGS will over dip them and charge you a ransom for the privilege but at least you will get it back in a same grade holder. You can take your chances and crack and dip in Acetone as to not strip the coin but it may never make it back into plastic.
Honestly you need to sell those probelms to someone else and buy a good light and learn to inspect coins under strong light to see if they are contaminated before buying. PCGS is now no longer accepting liability for turned/junk coins or in the business of taking ED coins off the market that reside in their holders. They used to think it was a brand builder to fix these types of coins to prevent an under-market of potentially worthless/devalued coins being resold under PCGS's name at retail to ignorant collectors who don't know any better by the same caliber of dealers that sold junky raw coins as higher grade.
Strong words @Crypto *** I don't know your qualifications or how many coins you have sent to PCGS in order to make these comments BUT I'm going to ignore much of your post. PCGS is not my favorite grading service and I have posted that they (and others) slab coins with active PVC. The goop left on the dime is unforgivable.
@Bochiman said: "I was told, by someone VERY high up at PCGS, who used to post a lot but doesn't now, that if the PVC were inert, and not active, he/PCGS didn't see it as an issue."
Well this is not inert and looks like the typical soft residue that can be easily removed without harming the coin. Generally the surface under the green is not affected in the early stage.
@JeffMTampa said: "There's a few spots on the obverse and a lot on the right side of the reverse. I don't want to sell the coins, but I would like to conserve them. Both of the coins are valued in the $250 to $300 range. If PCGS charges $30 to conserve them I can live with it, but I have to believe this green goo was visible on the coin at time of grading.
I was not there but from what I've seen over the years, 99.9% it was. As the perceived #1 grading service, I should think PCGS would take the coins back and remove the green residue with acetone at NO CHARGE TO YOU except postage both ways. If you wish to stay #1 you need to toss out a bone or two on occasion.
A "competent" conservation service can clean those coins up and they will stay the same basic color - only more attractive and preserved. Lots of luster on that dime.
I agree and I recently had that experience with an otherwise very nice coin sent to CAC.
Tom
Insider, your disagreeing with my post speaks more about your comprehension than my point's validity.
PCGS's current conservation policy is black and white and not influenced by wishes and dismay. As to coins floating around with PVC and ED problems that no longer have warranty protection, that also is not an interpretation type of issue as there is one at the beginning of this thread and by no means a unique scenario.
The only decision point/opinion is to either sell the coin or take on the risk and exspence of treatment. My opinion to move the junk and not throw money at bad and is only an opinion but one based on common sense and an understanding of the market. Maybe that is why we disagree?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@Crypto said: "Insider, your disagreeing with my post speaks more about your comprehension than my point's validity.
LOL! DITTO
"PCGS's current conservation policy is black and white and not influenced by wishes and dismay."
So PCGS just dips coins stark white and calls that conservation? Thanks for educating me. Shame on them. Black and white: Either dip or don't dip (conserve). Better not use that company!
"As to coins floating around with PVC and ED problems that no longer have warranty protection, that also is not an interpretation type of issue as there is one at the beginning of this thread and by no means a unique scenario."
Dah, you think. Perhaps you should read my post wayyyyyyyy up the thread as I agree with you.
"The only decision point/opinion is to either sell the coin or take on the risk and exspence of treatment. My opinion to move the junk and not throw money at bad and is only an opinion but one based on common sense and an understanding of the market. Maybe that is why we disagree?"
Nope, them coins have potential and the OP wants to keep them.
PS HAIL TO THE REDSKINS! 25+ years Ex-Season ticket holder.
I bought a coin online--didn't see the tiny bits of green. Only noticed when doing my own photos, not nearly as egregious as the coin above. Went back and checked the PCGS photo and once I knew where to look, there were the same dots. I THOUGHT the guarantee would have covered something that was present when slabbed (and not something showing after slabbing). They declined to crack/conserve and sent it back without comment. Not thrilled frankly.
I actually give the Green on that coin a 50/50 shot of being hard and inactive from the pictures! If it's hard acetone won't touch it.
@Stork said: "I bought a coin online--didn't see the tiny bits of green. Only noticed when doing my own photos, not nearly as egregious as the coin above. Went back and checked the PCGS photo and once I knew where to look, there were the same dots. I THOUGHT the guarantee would have covered something that was present when slabbed (and not something showing after slabbing). They declined to crack/conserve and sent it back without comment. Not thrilled frankly."
I feel for you. I mean they had the coin in hand when you returned it. The slab is about $4. IMO, the two largest services don't have the time to deal with little things like this. However, one of them has better customer service than the other and it still sucks as far as the little guy is concerned. IMO, If a place like Heritage said we are putting the OP's dime in an auction it would be fixed no ifs or buts. Get used to it, It's called "life." I had the owner of a major grading service tell me they are not interested in catering to the little guy! I see his point. TPGS's are big businesses. I'll bet six months of expenses would buy the most expensive coin in the world. OK, I'm behind the times, it may take a year of expenses.
@amwldcoin said: "I actually give the Green on that coin a 50/50 shot of being hard and inactive from the pictures! If it's hard acetone won't touch it."
The green on that coin is the typically soft green crud that collects on a brass snap attached to leather. It comes right off, you can push it with a toothpick. See comment above, Do you know how much money would be lost if a grader called the customer and asked if he could remove the slime? One second tier grading service does that on a daily basis but who wants their slab? It is worth more where it is -green and all. Another TPGS sends the coin back and recommends conservation. I should think on such an obvious coin it could be cracked cleaned and slabbed in less than three minutes. I don't own a TPGS but if I did, I'd walk it through myself as I'd have more money than I'd know what to do with.
In fact, I'd keep an eye on you guys and this forum on a daily basis and I should have already told the OP to send it back! Now that is ***** customer service, and I'd be #1.
PS Any experienced dealer is going to know what the green is and not be bothered as he'll move it on to someone else.
@insider2 If only the reverse area at the rim was involved I believe I would agree. What concerns me are the green spots on the Obv. They do not look like the soft green slim to me from the picture!
That fleck in front of Liberty in the field sure looks hard to me!
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Hey, Insider2. I just happen to have two extra tickets for the Rams vs. Skins game this Sunday. Best seats in the house. The weather is going to be "football perfect." The Hydrant family would be proud to have you and yours as our Honored Guests. If you can make it let me know before Friday. Fine dining experience to follow game. It will be a blast! It always is. Let me know.
PCGS has treated coins of mine with PVC with simple acetone dips (I believe). No acid dips were used.
The original color and toning remained with one exception, an IHC whose color changed somewhat after the removal of accumulated organic matter.
The service used to be free. It now costs, always.
Lance.
@Hydrant PM coming.
Oh well, Insider2, there's always a next time. Consider it as a standing offer. Oh, and I think the Rams are going to win the game. And that's the first time I've had that feeling in many a year!
You deserve a "Big Disagree" even if you are correct!
I've got this nagging thought in the back of my mind somewhere that tells me you're right. On both counts!
Stay positive and "Pray for the Redskins" (sung to the fight song). I was around for some really bad seasons but we never gave up!
PS I apologize to the OP for Highjacking his thread. He can PM me for ways to conserve the coin.
PPS If you are in Tampa, at this time, ICG will conserve your coin for free while you wait. Best though is to sell it in the PCGS holder or contact PCGS to help you out.
U will lose big time on these especially expensive coins nobody wants them - get them dipped - people want white brilliant coins not tarnished green crud.
That's a ludicrous position IMHO. How can you tell if the surface underneath has been damaged? You can speculate, but it is, after all, merely an educated guess. Unless they have superpowers, which would make for an interesting thread, I think that is a major problem.
Maybe some of the more creative members could start a PSA campaign urging submitters of nickel, silver, and gold to rinse their coins with acetone prior to submitting.
@Bochiman said: "I was told, by someone VERY high up at PCGS, who used to post a lot but doesn't now, that if the PVC were inert, and not active, he/PCGS didn't see it as an issue. This was brought up during the discussion of an OGH coin with PVC (that CAC caught)."
One member posted: "That's a ludicrous position IMHO. How can you tell if the surface underneath has been damaged? You can speculate, but it is, after all, merely an educated guess. Unless they have superpowers, which would make for an interesting thread, I think that is a major problem."
Actually, it is an educated guess - just as you say. Fortunately, some numismatists are more "educated" than others in certain fields - coin conservation for one. For example, let's take a look at your suggestion of "superpowers." Have you ever examined the surface of a coin at 40X to 80X? Just asking. What about a scanning electron microscope? You see, to the average dealer/collector, either of these cases may be called a "superpower."
Enough of that. I'll just write that I should be extremely disappointed and shocked if a large number of knowledgeable, experienced numismatists posting here cannot look at a coin with either natural toning or PVC contamination and tell the condition of the underlying surface correctly 90+% of the time Just using their naked eyes. Trust me when I say that the folks with this kind of experience who regularly conserve coins make this determination many times an hour. Get yourself a stereo microscope and a whole new world will be revealed.
@cameonut2011 said: "Maybe some of the more creative members could start a PSA campaign urging submitters of nickel, silver, and gold to rinse their coins with acetone prior to submitting."
An acetone wash will often disturb the "skin" of a coin causing the appearance of unnatural "flow" on the surface. Best not to do it unless you know what you are doing. However, I've been told that acetone is a very good chemical to apply to some types of alloys after conservation to prevent them from "turning" later.
BTW, I once suggested to the owner of a major TPGS that every coin be "chemically degreased" before slabbing and was told about all the legal problems with that idea. LOL. IMO, it would have worked. I've seen how easily surface contamination drips from a dirty, greasy sheet of aluminium.
For safety's sake, I'm not going to comment one way or the other...other to say I said what I was told.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I wasn't doubting you or what you were told.
@insider2 - Most graders use 5x-10x and spend only a few seconds looking at a coin. PCGS also states on its website that coins with PVC are not holdered so it seems a bit odd. It would explain a lot though.
Most of your top graders don't use a loop...they are near sighted......Is that a fact?
@cameonut2011 said: "Most graders use 5x-10x and spend only a few seconds looking at a coin. PCGS also states on its website that coins with PVC are not holdered so it seems a bit odd. It would explain a lot though."
AFAIK, most TPGS graders rarely use a glass at all! Additionally, as I wrote above, ALL THE MAJOR TPGS'S SLAB COINS WITH PVC. They make "market acceptable" decisions.
@grip said: "Most of your top graders don't use a loop...they are nearsighted......Is that a fact?"
I know they don't use a loop. As for nearsighted...(?) I know I am and it is very convenient; however, I don't count in your question.
You guys are just pulling stuff out of your behind. Every grading station has a glass with it and it isn't there for the hell of it. Industry standard is 5x. There is even a cadence and process they use for consistency.
OP please call PCGS about these and do report back with what you are told. Lot of noise on this thread.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Insofar as the question posted by the OP, there is no need to call as it is spelled out clearly in the PCGS Guarantee:
"Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion."
It seems that all "services" can be a "bit odd."
Just curious about two things. Who won the Redskins game and exactly how many TPGS grading rooms have you been in while coins were being graded? Did the graders put a glass to each coin? The guys grading SE do not count.
PS I'd be very interested if anyone else here cares to answer my second question.
Skins won, 27-20. The Rams couldn't stop the running game. Best Rams game in 20 years in L.A. Congratulations Skins. Wish you could have joined us Insider2.
Oh, and the best part.....Hydrant daughter- in-law Monica, informed me at halftime that another little Hydrant is due to arrive around May 11, 2018. Rams lose I WIN!! Life is great!!!!!!
P.S. I would like to name the Washington D.C. football team by its proper name, but on my cheap tablet it comes out Redskins. Well, well, well. It came out right. Reclaims. Reclaims, Redding , Redeeming, Redmond, Redskins, STOP!!!
CONGRATULATIONS.....R-E-D-S-K-I-N-S. Great game!
What is more insidious than the above is a coin which looks fine when it was slabbed by a TPG, and looks fine when you buy it, only to have it start turning in the holder years later. I had an 1804 1/2 Cent with stems (the type coin) in MS 65 BN develop an active green PVC spot on the 8 of the date eight years after I bought it. The guy who sold it to me is one of the most honorable people in the hobby.
I was able to unload the coin at a small profit. If you want the details, PM me; it's too involved to get into here. Lesson learned is I will not buy a pre 1815 copper unless it's in an OGH. If it's in an OGH, if there is a problem with the coin, you'd know it by the time you saw it. If you have a problem with a coin like this, don't expect any help from the TPGs. No one can help you under these circumstances. When an old copper goes bad, you're done.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
@Elcontador said: "What is more insidious than the above is a coin which looks fine when it was slabbed by a TPG, and looks fine when you buy it, only to have it start turning in the holder years later."
I disagree. This is more insidious as no one can predict what happens to a coin "down-the-road" after it is slabbed.
The green blob of residue does not develop inside a slab. What may (probably not) develop is the kind of tiny green spots in the hairline above the ear. The fact that this coin was slabbed is very curious. As I wrote, I should be totally shocked and personally saddened if the acclaimed #1 grading service did not conserve it for you (a 1 min. job) for just the cost of your postage both ways. Let's stop writing about it. The OP should send it in with a nice letter or let a major submitter send it in with his letter the next time he sends in a batch of his own.
@Elcontador continued: "If you have a problem with a coin like this, don't expect any help from the TPGs. No one can help you under these circumstances. When an old copper goes bad, you're done."
I disagree. There are some major TPGS who would take care of this for the OP immediately and possibly send back a coupon for a free submission for bringing this coin to their attention. As I wrote above, I should be shocked if PCGS did not fix this coin. I have had the pleasure to finally meet one of the administrators of this web site and an officer of the company. The OP should PM him and I'll bet he helps you out.
One thing you have written is certain. At this time, when copper spots, there is usually not much you can do besides lighten it.
As I said earlier, PCGS will not conserve a coin to remove PVC at no cost. I talked this over with Don Willis and Sheridan Downey at the Denver ANA (for the second time).
The coin in question was an 1827 R5 bust half dollar that was submitted to PCGS in 1/17 for attribution. When it was returned in 3/17 I saw it had developed many tiny PVC spots. Photos below.
I have no idea how this happened. I suppose the PVC was there all along and chose an inopportune time to reveal itself.
In 5/17 I submitted it for conservation. It was returned in 6/17 with no message and no conservation. Just a $40 bill.
So I again broached the subject with DW and showed him the coin. He immediately spotted the PVC and agreed to take it back to PCGS for treatment. Customer service emailed me to say there would be another fee for the work.
Lance.
BEFORE and AFTER