Well shut my mouth! Learned something new about PCGS today. I guess different TPGS do things differently.
Those spots are what fresh PVC looks like. Perhaps it was put into a soft (PVC) holder while it was at the company. Really does not matter because you'll need to crack it, fix it yourself, and pay the standard cost of the reholder. Hope the grade stays the same or goes up!
I've purchased numerous raw coins with PVC issues and have had a 100% success rate removing the green substance with acetone. All of the coins successfully graded with our hosts and none of them have bloomed again. This is my first experience purchasing PCGS holdered coins with PVC. I'm fairly confident that if cracked I could remove the substance, but I question if the Barber Dime pictured would receive a 58 grade again.
I don't want to take the risk by cracking it out, but I can also understand why PCGS doesn't want to risk it. I think I'll send an email with photos to Customer Service to see what kind of response I get. Any suggestions on who to email?
Of course she can't make the call but will send it upstairs if she doesn't just give you a stock answer about PCGS's policy with regard to PVC on a slabbed coin.
Lance.
@cameonut2011 said:
Wasn't the PCGS secure service meant to stop this? Maybe PCGS should begin to require that all coins be submitted under the secure plus tier.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Secure Plus had numerous goals, among them detecting a coin that had been previously submitted through SP and was submitted again (through the SP service) but with doctoring. The fingerprint technology would report that the coin is the same but it has been messed with.
Along with the fingerprint scan Secure Plus included running the coin past the Sniffer to detect the presence of PCGS-banned substances such as putty, Blue Ribbon and some unsavory substances not fit to talk about at the dinner table. (There is some question about whether the Sniffer is still used today.)
PVC is not a substance the Sniffer detects. The Sniffer was about catching cheaters, not checking for PVC or verdigris (though I think that would be an excellent, welcomed use if it could be programmed for that purpose).
So, as things stand, running all coins through SP wouldn't change anything, as far as the topics in this thread are concerned.
Lance.
@cameonut2011 said:
Wasn't the PCGS secure service meant to stop this? Maybe PCGS should begin to require that all coins be submitted under the secure plus tier.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Secure Plus had numerous goals, among them detecting a coin that had been previously submitted through SP and was submitted again (through the SP service) but with doctoring. The fingerprint technology would report that the coin is the same but it has been messed with.
Along with the fingerprint scan Secure Plus included running the coin past the Sniffer to detect the presence of PCGS-banned substances such as putty, Blue Ribbon and some unsavory substances not fit to talk about at the dinner table. (There is some question about whether the Sniffer is still used today.)
PVC is not a substance the Sniffer detects. The Sniffer was about catching cheaters, not checking for PVC or verdigris (though I think that would be an excellent, welcomed use if it could be programmed for that purpose).
So, as things stand, running all coins through SP wouldn't change anything, as far as the topics in this thread are concerned.
Lance.
I thought the sniffer could detect PVC residue. That was the intent. PCGS missed a golden opportunity if PVC isn't one of the substances that the sniffer looks for.
As I said, the intent was to ID doctored coins, not pick up on surface elements that corrode.
I agree, it would be a great service-add if PCGS could check for the presence of PVC.
Here's a link to an old press release which says, in part:
"The PCGS Coin Sniffer uses dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques to detect the kinds of materials applied by so-called "coin doctors" to conceal problems with a coin or alter its surface to improve its appearance in an attempt to artificially increase the coin's value.
Commonly used organic materials applied to coins include plastic resins such as Bondo, putty, caulk, wax, lacquer, varnish, acrylics, paint, ink, acetone, glue, and citric acid."
I sent an email to Customer Service yesterday with photos of the coin. No reply yet; either they're backed up on reading emails or they're considering my request. I'll be optomistic and think the latter.
As a follow up to my original post I sent PCGS Customer Service a few emails re: the substantial amount of PVC in recently holdered coins I purchased. I was asking if they would stand behind the coins and treat the PVC/ reholder. I didn't get a response.
I decided to crack out the two problem dimes and treat the PVC myself; it came off easily. I submitted the coins raw, hoping they would come back in the same AU 58 holders I took them out of. The grades posted yesterday, and bot are now in AU 58 holders PVC free. Here's the 1902 S Dime:
Before:
After (TruView):
Here's the 1908 O:
Before:
After:
As a footnote, I did drop the '08 O in a very weak MS70 solution to brighten it a bit.
Although I had to pay for regrading the coins, it was worth it to get rid of the nasty green stuff. Hopefully it doesn't come back.
@Stork said:
I bought a coin online--didn't see the tiny bits of green. Only noticed when doing my own photos, not nearly as egregious as the coin above. Went back and checked the PCGS photo and once I knew where to look, there were the same dots. I THOUGHT the guarantee would have covered something that was present when slabbed (and not something showing after slabbing). They declined to crack/conserve and sent it back without comment. Not thrilled frankly.
Did the same as you minus the MS70. Cracked it out, acetoned it. Sent it back in and there it is in plastic again. Toning preserved and PVC is gone. In plastic at my cost. All fixed, but irritating.
@Crypto said:
PCGS will over dip them and charge you a ransom for the privilege but at least you will get it back in a same grade holder...
Yeah, I didn't have a great experience with that process. I picked-up a slabbed 8 Reales with lots of PVC around the date that made me wonder if the PVC developed in the holder or not. The coinfacts image showed that they actually slabbed it with that much PVC. So, I sent it in to get conserved, at which point it was dipped blast white and returned back to me. After a year the coin developed a light brownish dip stain, I sent it in again and PCGS did remove it. I sold the coin immediately after. It would have been a nice customer experience, but the shipping costs and waiting times made it otherwise.
One thing to add: I do see quite a bit more PVC in NGC plastic, though. I've looked at collections where about a third of coins in older NGC holder had spots of PVC developing.
Comments
Well shut my mouth!
Learned something new about PCGS today. I guess different TPGS do things differently. 
Those spots are what fresh PVC looks like. Perhaps it was put into a soft (PVC) holder while it was at the company. Really does not matter because you'll need to crack it, fix it yourself, and pay the standard cost of the reholder. Hope the grade stays the same or goes up!
Wasn't the PCGS secure service meant to stop this? Maybe PCGS should begin to require that all coins be submitted under the secure plus tier.
I've purchased numerous raw coins with PVC issues and have had a 100% success rate removing the green substance with acetone. All of the coins successfully graded with our hosts and none of them have bloomed again. This is my first experience purchasing PCGS holdered coins with PVC. I'm fairly confident that if cracked I could remove the substance, but I question if the Barber Dime pictured would receive a 58 grade again.
I don't want to take the risk by cracking it out, but I can also understand why PCGS doesn't want to risk it. I think I'll send an email with photos to Customer Service to see what kind of response I get. Any suggestions on who to email?
I've found Alma (Stephanie) Salgado ASalgado@collectors.com very responsive.
Of course she can't make the call but will send it upstairs if she doesn't just give you a stock answer about PCGS's policy with regard to PVC on a slabbed coin.
Lance.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Secure Plus had numerous goals, among them detecting a coin that had been previously submitted through SP and was submitted again (through the SP service) but with doctoring. The fingerprint technology would report that the coin is the same but it has been messed with.
Along with the fingerprint scan Secure Plus included running the coin past the Sniffer to detect the presence of PCGS-banned substances such as putty, Blue Ribbon and some unsavory substances not fit to talk about at the dinner table. (There is some question about whether the Sniffer is still used today.)
PVC is not a substance the Sniffer detects. The Sniffer was about catching cheaters, not checking for PVC or verdigris (though I think that would be an excellent, welcomed use if it could be programmed for that purpose).
So, as things stand, running all coins through SP wouldn't change anything, as far as the topics in this thread are concerned.
Lance.
I thought the sniffer could detect PVC residue. That was the intent. PCGS missed a golden opportunity if PVC isn't one of the substances that the sniffer looks for.
As I said, the intent was to ID doctored coins, not pick up on surface elements that corrode.
I agree, it would be a great service-add if PCGS could check for the presence of PVC.
Here's a link to an old press release which says, in part:
"The PCGS Coin Sniffer uses dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques to detect the kinds of materials applied by so-called "coin doctors" to conceal problems with a coin or alter its surface to improve its appearance in an attempt to artificially increase the coin's value.
Commonly used organic materials applied to coins include plastic resins such as Bondo, putty, caulk, wax, lacquer, varnish, acrylics, paint, ink, acetone, glue, and citric acid."
https://pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Coin-Sniffertrade-Uses-Advanced-Technology-To-Detect-Doctored-Coins
Lance.
Lance, don't forget nose oil.
I sent an email to Customer Service yesterday with photos of the coin. No reply yet; either they're backed up on reading emails or they're considering my request. I'll be optomistic and think the latter.
As a follow up to my original post I sent PCGS Customer Service a few emails re: the substantial amount of PVC in recently holdered coins I purchased. I was asking if they would stand behind the coins and treat the PVC/ reholder. I didn't get a response.
I decided to crack out the two problem dimes and treat the PVC myself; it came off easily. I submitted the coins raw, hoping they would come back in the same AU 58 holders I took them out of. The grades posted yesterday, and bot are now in AU 58 holders PVC free. Here's the 1902 S Dime:
Before:
After (TruView):
Here's the 1908 O:
Before:
After:
As a footnote, I did drop the '08 O in a very weak MS70 solution to brighten it a bit.
Although I had to pay for regrading the coins, it was worth it to get rid of the nasty green stuff. Hopefully it doesn't come back.
Did the same as you minus the MS70. Cracked it out, acetoned it. Sent it back in and there it is in plastic again. Toning preserved and PVC is gone. In plastic at my cost. All fixed, but irritating.
Yeah, I didn't have a great experience with that process. I picked-up a slabbed 8 Reales with lots of PVC around the date that made me wonder if the PVC developed in the holder or not. The coinfacts image showed that they actually slabbed it with that much PVC. So, I sent it in to get conserved, at which point it was dipped blast white and returned back to me. After a year the coin developed a light brownish dip stain, I sent it in again and PCGS did remove it. I sold the coin immediately after. It would have been a nice customer experience, but the shipping costs and waiting times made it otherwise.
Originally slabbed:
After the first dip:
8 Reales Madness Collection
One thing to add: I do see quite a bit more PVC in NGC plastic, though. I've looked at collections where about a third of coins in older NGC holder had spots of PVC developing.
8 Reales Madness Collection