A curious 1842 Quarter Eagle. Where's the repair?
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This rare bird was in the Heritage Denver ANA sale. It is in an NGC Details holder as Repaired.
There is something that looks obviously wrong to me about this coin. What say you?
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Comments
The last S in states? Filled hole?
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Agree it looks "wrong" but why not say "plugged?" Additionally, the entire field above the eagle looks smoothed out.
Potato patato...
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Good "eye!"
Perhaps to you but if you knew the number of people who cannot see anything wrong with coins that are "detailed" you may change to Potato/Potato. Repaired (now find it fool) rather than plugged through S or "S" Repaired.
Paging Dan Quayle.........
Surfaces have been stripped and refinished
Latin American Collection
the reeding at the top of the reverse looks off for a circulated coin. would have to see raw in hand to try to determine if ex-jewelry, filed edge/repaired, ...
Looks like a Stockton tone over after a repair. He was quite Skilled.
I was going to bid aggressively for this coin if the rather tame description Heritage used for this coin was accurate. As Bruce saw immediately is that huge final S on STATES. Unfortunately this "feature" doesn't help like in the case of the 1854-O Quarter! And yes, all of the other possible doctoring mentioned here doesn't help either
Perhaps Heritage is overloaded with inventory, but I find the description lacking for such an important coin.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-quarter-eagles/quarter-eagles/1842-2-1-2-repaired-ngc-details-au/a/1258-5481.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
It would help if you showed both sides of the coin ...
But be that as it may, the fields appear to have been smoothed. They don't have the color or surface of a slightly circulated coin.
The second "S" in "STATES" is out of proportion, which indicates that it has been repaired, either for damage or to cover the site of a plug. This is why showing both sides of the piece is a good idea if you want to know more about the repair.
Making the “S” look odd is an ethical move for the repair person. It sends the signal that something has been done to the piece with no overt effort to hide what was done.
As others have said I agree that the field above the eagle looks "smoothed."
Should we call such coins "smoothies?"
SmoothieS
I was overwhelmed by its smoothie-ness before my eyes could focus. And then realized they already had.
I had to blink twice before I noticed the "S".
True, but for me its all about the "S" and the lack of description from Heritage regardless of whats on the other side of the coin.
Oh, ok. But it should be mentioned in any subsequent effort to sell it.
I recall some sellers on eBay who would buy coins like this, crack them out and auction them raw as "purchased from an old time estate." I could see that happening with this coin, but hopefully not.
The 'S' was the first thing I noticed .... artfully done... and yes, the field above the eagle does appear smoothed..Overall, a well done repair - that is, if the obverse is as well done...Cheers, RickO
@BillJones said: "Making the “S” look odd is an ethical move for the repair person. It sends the signal that something has been done to the piece with no overt effort to hide what was done."
I strongly disagree! Assuming (you know what that means) that any person getting paid to restore/repair a coin does less than the best his talent allows, is VERY HARD for me to swallow. GULP & CHOKE!
Furthermore the same goes for anyone who is not paid! IMHO, your comment is, well...not realistic or else I have a very low and misplaced opinion of all our angelic friends who repair, restore, and doctor coins. But I think not.
Yes. If you're going to "doctor" a coin then why leave such a scar and side effects? Malpractice. Altruism is not in this equation. And, I'm still disappointed with Heritage. Better put the super zoom on when looking at their material.
I shall agree to disagree with both of you. When filling holes became really became popular in 1970s and '80s, the hope was the repair person would leave enough of a sign to show that the piece had been repaired. I'm not talking about something that is really obvious. I'm talking about something you can spot with strong glass.
Do either of you guys want to pay full book for a coin that has been holed and repaired? Think about it. Some these repair guys are good enough to make the repair almost undetectable. I’ve seen some of them.
Back in 1973, I was looking at some pre 1805 half dimes that were in the inventory of a major dealer who is still active. All of the coins were traps. One of them had been holed and repaired. It looked okay until I took my 10X and saw a slight wave in one of the letters on the reverse. I flipped the coin over and sure enough there was something on the obverse in the same spot. The coin had been holed and repaired.
Another coin had what looked like adjustment marks on the obverse. With a 10X glass I saw initials carved into the coin under the “adjustment marks.” When I pointed that out the dealer, he, “I was going to point that out to you!” YEA RIGHT.
That was an eye-opening experience for a 24 year old who was close to blowing a thousand hard earned dollars on a problem coin that was worth a fraction of that.
Ok, there is some grey area here with the motivations behind the doctoring but I'm still really disappointed with the Heritage description of the lot. Thanks for your perspective.
snif.....NOBODY...noticed the big "S."
Or..... it was just a stoopid post.
LOL, this is nuts. Sorry, I should just like to disagree without being my usual disagreeable self. I apologize. Let me attempt to refute your post.
Mr. Bill, do you actually believe that? Really? Holes have been drilled into coins since before generations of your descendants were around. I was not around in the '20's to 40's but I was around in the '50's until now. I'll guarantee that holed coins have been repaired AT THE LEAST since the turn of the Twentieth Century as collecting became popular. Very often, as someone who has seen more holes (LOL) and repairs than - shall I say Mr. Knowitall (not you Bill - the one everyone talks about) - that IMHO, there is not one that ever appeared to be crudely done on purpose. Furthermore, I've seen several that passed through many hands and many auctions before they were detected.
2 "Do either of you guys want to pay full book for a coin that has been holed and repaired? Think about it. Some these repair guys are good enough to make the repair almost undetectable. I’ve seen some them."
Rolling my eyes. Of course NOT so what's your point? This has nothing to do with your contention that honorable folks intentionally leave easily detectable repairs around so no one is scammed - knowingly or not.
Furthermore, if I can detect a repair with my eyes or a 10X hand lens, I call it "an-across-the-room" alteration (like the coin in the OP) which should not fool a knowledgeable numismatist. Mr. Bill, I put you into that category. The proof is how easily you were able to detect all those "trap" coins. You are truly an exception.
Wow, I wish I had your "silver tongue." That's a very gracious reply.
Why are you so rude insider2? I give you an honest opinion based on my experience, and you come back with belittling attack. I can now understand why so many people dislike you.
The goal of coin repair work is to make the coin acceptable, not deceptive.
I will not answer your posts in the future.
MY LOSS!
Mr. Bill, I expected more from you. I consider you a very knowledgeable numismatist with much to share. Still, in the future, whether you, me or anyone else posts an opinion that is well, not thought out completely, I shall ask questions and expect the same from others. For me, it is the thought that counts and not the way it is written. I have noticed that in several past threads, you have already chosen not to reply to my questions so this response is nothing new to me.
You are clueless. This is first time I have even considered ignoring you.
Handling repaired coins properly is a matter of ethics. It's no fun finding out years later that coin you bought thinking it was a "no problem example" has been repaired.
this coin does look plugged, smoothed, and antiqued.
Unfortunately, the world of numismatics is a cross section of all types of people with differing, morals, knowledge, tastes, and goals. While I'm not the world's policeman, I'll put my numismatic morals up against anyone on CU. I have too much to lose. And just like most of us here, I plan on passing on as much as I have learned and absorbing as much as I can from others. When I get it wrong as has happened in the past, I expect to be corrected. I find the harsher the correction the more I learn and remember. It's just like rubbing a dogs nose into his unfortunate "mistake" as a teaching tool. LOL!
Each of us needs to take care of ourselves if we are on your level of expertise. The TPGS are there to help protect the uninformed. The OP's coin is in a proper slab graded and described correctly. Nothing is going to stop its next owner from cracking it out and selling raw to someone who MAY, down the road, discover that he was "taken" and the coin is repaired. We cannot prevent it.
@steveben said: "This coin does look plugged, smoothed, and antiqued."
When I first read this post, my mind transposed it and added a "does NOT." I took a photo to help change the opinion I THOUGHT the poster gave. As I got ready to post the image I realized MY ERROR.
Anyway, I'll share a photo of a $2 1/2. Obviously the field near the rim is original with nice luster and metal flow; yet as soon as we look past the area
protected by the rim and letters, the color and condition of the field changes!
The point I wanted to bring forward in this thread was in my opinion an obvious problem with this coin that Heritage failed to mention in its description. If you're going to write a paragraph about a coin then it should be there. Otherwise just say "Reverse Repaired" or just let the photos do the talking.
How can you notice tooling in the field and rim and miss the monster S. C'mon man!
Here's the description with my bolding:
An extremely important opportunity to acquire the low-mintage 1842 quarter eagle from a production of just 2,823 pieces. Myriad surface marks are evident, with tooling in the reverse field and on the rim, accounting for the NGC designation. Subdued yellow-gold surfaces exhibit dark toning around the devices.
plugged and 'redesigned' S in States
BHNC #203
From the photos the color and surfaces of these piece are well away from anything that looks original. That was probably done by the coin doctor or repair person to cover up the tooling and possible plug that was inserted in the repair of this coin. It's rare, but it's also a problem coin.
Your point is well made. However, IMO, "repaired" covers NGC. The photo in the slab covers Heritage also but they should be ashamed. A hole in a coin that is filled is not "tooling." Still, the weasels showed the slab but fudged the description.
Still, the weasels showed the slab but fudged the description.
Yep, that's my only point. Sound of mic dropping.
We examined this coin and agree that it is highly likely that it has been holed and plugged. As a result, we called the buyer, a dealer. He is going to keep the coin and thanked us.
Stewart Huckaby
mailto:stewarth@HA.com
------------------------------------------
Heritage Auctions
Heritage Auctions
2801 W. Airport Freeway
Dallas, Texas 75261
Phone: 1-800-US-COINS, x1355
Heritage Auctions
Way to go Stewart making it right.
The rarities need to be examined very closely when providing descriptions.
I apologize if this is not relevant, but I sent this $T into ICG to get the experienced opinion from the graders there, as a dealer I know thought it belonged in a high grade AU or even an Unc. holder. The ICG expert said they would call it tooled, much to the chagrin of the NY dealer who I sent it back to in the NGC holder.
"Tooled" is a very particular word that refers to moving metal around to hide something, smooth something, or even add detail to a coin but re-engraved is a better term for that type of alteration.
In an advanced grading seminar dealing with problem coins, students learned that very often a coin can have many problems. For example, a typical AU "problem" coin might be harshly cleaned, with a repaired (filed) edge and several large scratches to the point of actually being damaged. Once a coin goes into a "details" slab, much of its value is "killed." What's a TPGS to do? I'll bet in this case NGC chose to go with "cleaned" and ignore anything else that was on the coin - the possible "tooling" ICG graders saw (more serious a problem than cleaning).