Is this 1878 $2 1/2 real?
jwitten
Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭✭✭
If it is a fake, it fooled me. Appears to be circulated. Dirty, dings, etc. Yes, it has pitted looking areas around the rim, but so do some in trueview. A customer said it tested as not gold... but I am not sure how they did the test (did they test it for a higher purity than it is?). I have gotten pretty good at spotting fakes, but if this is one, it got me. 
Here is a genuine trueview
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Looks OK to me. I'd be curious to how they tested the coin, if an acid test the acids can go bad if they are too old wonder if perhaps that's the case.
No expert but my first thought was fake. Portrait looks off to me, and date as well. Unless there is a low last 8 variety it's not looking good.
Circulated counterfeit?. I think the date does look off. But probably gold.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
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If fake, someone did an admirable job with the orange-gold, encrusted dirt look into nearly every denticle. That's craftsmanship.
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/7828
Interesting that the CoinFacts 1878 MS66+ shows the same striking weakness on letters of "LIBERTY" and the obv denticles crumbling from 6-10 O'clock. Reverse strike is weak in some areas too such as claws.
Like Bruce pointed out, it COULD be an old counterfeit that circulated. Did they make counterfeits this good that were not gold? I am still not 100% convinced it is a fake, but might try returning it where I got it just to be safe.
Wow... if that's fake, then I'm committed to buying all of my gold in slabs. I thought the "8" looked low because of the camera angle.
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Not an expert by any means but it looks good to me.
Collector, occasional seller
Looks good to me. May have spent some time in a bezel long ago.
Agree--that was my gut reaction.
How did they do the test without damaging the coin? Guessing that they don't have access to spectral analysis?
Latin American Collection
The first set of pictures made me question the coin's authenticity, but the second made me think that it is genuine. I don't think that an old time contemporary counterfeiter would have taken the time to do work like this, plus why do it if you make the counterfeit out of gold?
There is a machine that you can buy which tests the purity of the metals.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I'm looking at the True View closer and I don't see any of the spots on the > @BillJones said:
I made that same mistake and just realized it. The True View is not the same coin....or at least I can't match up any of the spots and marks. The TV is a real original coin and looks all of the part.
The first pictures are of my coin, the second pictures are a TrueView of a genuine coin to compare.
I think it's genuine.
looks genuine to me.
@Insider2 any thoughts?
Well, what's the not gold price?
The weight should be a good indication if not gold.
Buying the picture,looks promising.
Yes, I have some thoughts. I just got to the office from the FUN Show. One of the highlights was I got to meet Mr. Stephenson, one of the moderators here and I thanked him for not banning me by now!
My thoughts:
PS I was not taught how to authenticate a coin with images yet! That might make a great new course for the Summer Seminar. I'd attend for sure.
PPS This date is heavily counterfeited.
Weighing coins is a thing of the past. Any counterfeit that is deceptive enough to fool the top professional dealers or professional authenticators will be within mint tolerances in all respects.
Plus: Die Polish in the shield. No Tool Marks. Sharpe relief. Beat up condition.
Minus: Blob next to 13th star. Fuzzy image at high power so cannot tell what it is.
Having examined both pictures in detail, and compared the features, I cannot see anything significant enough to call it counterfeit... some minor variances (leaf beneath the T) and others seem to be more from wear than anything else. I would vote authentic. Cheers, RickO
When I get it back, I am going to go by a jeweler who can hopefully determine weight and gold content. If it is real gold, I would say real. If it is not gold, well, it is a heck of a fake, lol.
Just don't let the jeweler do an acid test on it
Latin American Collection
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER take a coin to a jeweler. They have destroyed the value of coins by millions of dollars.
Just weigh it. When you receive it, take a sharp image of the polis in the shield. That can be matched up online.
PS Most counterfeit Liberty gold coins should be easy to detect in hand by someone who has bought as many as you have.
Way back in the ancient agora- late 1950s, early 1960s, the "Beirut" counterfeiters did use pretty good gold, sometimes even the proper amounts, if the coin had a significant market premium. A USA 2 and 1/2 gold might have been such a coin. Those 'Lebanese' fellows were pretty good at their craft. iIRC, they specialized in sovereigns but did many things. Time has weeded many of these fakes out, but some are still around.
I am sorry that I have to admonish - someone buying raw gold coins should own a decent small electronic scale. They are not expensive, some as low as twenty bucks.
Besides weighing make sure the coin passes the "ring" test. Then verify no tooling marks (raised lumps, bumps, blobs, edges inside the rims). The more well hidden die polish and die cracks around and inside the devices the more likely it's authentic.
My local jeweler is pretty good, and knows not to damage coins.
I've bought and sold hundreds and hundreds of these, and you are right, it is about time I get a scale. I feel like I have gotten good enough at spotting fakes to not need one, but (if) this one is a fake, it might be what makes me finally get a scale.
Looks right to me. IF a counterfeit someone did one hell of a good job.
If it were a buffalo nickel I could give you a firm answer. But I honestly don't see any problem.
Bill,
I disagree with your opinion. I did not become a "serious" (LOL) collector until the late 1960's. From what I saw and learned in the early 1970's ( I attended my first counterfeit seminar in 1973), NO COUNTERFEIT US GOLD was the correct alloy or color until the late 1970's.
Additionally, the "expert" authenticators of the 1960's were teaching that the STRUCK COUNTERFEIT GOLD coins from Beirut, were casts!!
I have a pocket scale ($12) for coin shows.
The only older print reference that is at my fingertips is Donald J. Hoppe's 'How to invest in Gold Coins' (Arco publishing Company, 1970/ earlier editions exist) and he simply states that with some coin premiums at 50% to 85% over gold melt, some middle eastern counterfeits exist which gave full gold value (page 209). Hoppe wrote a masterful book and his statement is very clear. But he did not intend to imply that this applied to the average fake product either.
I also heard the same thing from other credible oral sources, but a print citation is better.
Perhaps the Lonesome John (was his last name Devine?) books addressed the counterfeit situation as it stood at an earlier time (and perhaps I gave some lingering memories from those books), and I used to have those books, but I think they got disposed of somehow.
You shake your head sometimes at the good stuff that slipped through your fingers while trying to please other people.
I got the coin back today, and ran by my local jeweler. He has a gold tester that does not harm the item, and it showed it between 20-22k, which is correct. It also weighed the right amount. I have no idea why it failed the gold test for my customer. Does this help confirm it is probably genuine?
Well it is supportive that it is legitimate certainly.
Latin American Collection
Looks genuine to me.